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yellowtail
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
OK. BA operates direct to the following fifteen airports in South and Central America:

ANU (BA2157)
BGI (BA2155)
EZE (BA245)
GCM (BA253)
GIG (BA249)
GND (BA2159)
GRU (BA247)
KIN (BA2263)
MEX (BA243)
POS (BA2159)
PUJ (BA2157)
UVF (BA2159)
SKB (BA2157)
TAB (BA2157)
UVF (BA2169)

In you list your forgot CUN. Even if it is classified as North America.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:39 pm

I think the Caymans, Falklands and the British Virgins are the only British Territories left in Western Hemisphere.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
steve6666
Posts: 491
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 49):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):BA fully recovered from 2001 by 2007 when they made their largest ever profits. Perhaps you should revise your history.

Great, so maybe they should have bought more planes, trained more crew like all others airlines did. Something simply does not add up.

Well, I go back to my semi-throw away line that I look at the financial results and ask whose position would you rather be in? Serving Bonaire and Lima hasn't got KLM very far, and serving Cayenne hasn't stopped Air France from haemorrhaging money. Whatever else you think of Willie Walsh and his cabal, IAG as a whole is run on hard headed financial terms. And again, if you asked me in business terms whether I would rather have exposure to a high income per capita mature market or a low income per capita emerging market, the answer would be the former.

In any case, the answer to the question is simply, slots. Far far far easier to add destinations and frequencies when you have 4+ runways in your "home" airport. At LHR it isn't simply a question of does the destination add contribution margin £ or €, it is a question also of are there other destinations that would add more contribution margin € or £.

2001 isn't relevant - BA had one year of making an operating or net loss (I can't remember which) in 2002. The losses of 2009 and 2010 were caused by the later crisis.
A306, A318, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B73G, B738, B742, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B773, B77W, B787-8, BAe-146, Cessna Something, DC-10, E175, E195, ERJ145, MD-11, MD-80, PA Something
 
factsonly
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:48 pm

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 52):
Serving Bonaire and Lima hasn't got KLM very far, and serving Cayenne hasn't stopped Air France from haemorrhaging money
Quoting steve6666 (Reply 52):
IAG as a whole is run on hard headed financial terms.

Ohh......that's why BA serves Antigua, Bridgetown and St. Lucia !!!
 
Summa767
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 52):
if you asked me in business terms whether I would rather have exposure to a high income per capita mature market or a low income per capita emerging market, the answer would be the former.

BA obviously have to maximise what for them is a proven market. But it is not the case that BA puts all the eggs in the US. We have seen BA open Chengdu, and re-open Seoul. On the Americas is has increased capacity to Mexico (which is still not served daily, which for a major city and economy shows the airline's necessary restraint on LatAm), it has doubled capacity to GIG and opened a dedicated EZE non-stop service. I am sure they will open more destinations, but as you say, they make hard headed decisions.

AF and KL have added more capacity, but in the case of BOG they have kept the capacity flat for 5 or 6 years. Just a daily A340 from CDG.

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 52):
In any case, the answer to the question is simply, slots. Far far far easier to add destinations and frequencies when you have 4+ runways in your "home" airport. At LHR it isn't simply a question of does the destination add contribution margin £ or €, it is a question also of are there other destinations that would add more contribution margin € or £.

This is obviously one of the reasons that the merger with Iberia happened -and now Vueling has been acquired to compete point to point in Europe. MAD does have plenty of scope for growth and it covers LatAm very well. IB has obviously had its troubles,and it was overdue for some restructuring, of which it is emerging very lean. It will be able to expand further into LatAm and Africa, and likely a couple of Asian destinations too.

On the matter of IB service, it built itself a bad name, but the message among its staff is definitely getting through that there is competition out there. On the hard product, the new A330s and refurbishment of its A346s is making a massive difference to Iberia's perception too. I know that as far as service is concerned, I would choose Iberia over Avianca or LAN any day.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 51):
I think the Caymans, Falklands and the British Virgins are the only British Territories left in Western Hemisphere.

You omit St Helena & Tristan de Cunha plus the metropolis of the South Sandwich Islands. Also isn't Gib in
the western hemisphere?
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 53):

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 52):
IAG as a whole is run on hard headed financial terms.

Ohh......that's why BA serves Antigua, Bridgetown and St. Lucia !!!

Carribbean tourism is fairly high yield, Bridgetown was one of BA's few Concorde routes which confirms this, plus they now operate the routes from LGW which helps with costs and slots. BA have increased their flights on these routes in recent years so we can be fairly sure they are profitable.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 51):
I think the Caymans, Falklands and the British Virgins are the only British Territories left in Western Hemisphere.

Also Bermuda, Anguilla, Montserrat, Turks & Caicos.
 
directorguy
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 19):
How smooth is the international transit in MIA? Do passengers have to do immigration/customs; and re-checkin their baggage? Do they have to get a boarding pass for their onward international connection at MIA? Or, can they remain airside and have a smooth international connection experience like LHR/FRA/AMS and other airports?

Transiting through MIA is NOT smooth, as yes, everyone has to go through US immigration, but you can get to many places in the Caribbean/South America from MIA, places that don't have a direct flight to the UK, and have limited/non-existent service to Europe.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting bogota (Reply 42):
If an airport like BOG can support 18+ direct flights a day to the US how can it not support maybe a daily to the UK? Same goes for places like LIM, SCL and even PTY? It took over 5 years for AV to get a hold of a slot at LHR, yes the problem is a slot problem which is definitely hurting the UK economy as a whole, but it might be time to think strategicly into the new world order before it is too late.

Civil Aviation is not about math.
BOG ties to the United States are larger than the ones with the UK, that's the true. Colombians like to travel to the United States, buy properties there, US corporations invest in Colombia and they are hundreds...
But look to UK... how many UK corporations are there ? Do Colombians buy properties in UK ? How many Brits visit Colombia ? What is the size of the expat community ? How many immigrants ?

Aviation goes with business, VFR (which means Visiting Friends and relatives and to be more clear, goes up as the number of immigrants is higher, or there's a large business community), and leisure (Tourism).

Probably the US market is largest based on what I mentioned above.

Shall UK-Colombia offer a daily flight ? In my view, Probably. But not because there are 18 flights a day to the United States.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting qf2220 (Reply 44):

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
I do think that we will see LHR-LIM and LHR-SCL at some point, served by BA and or LAN.

I agree, LHR-SCL seems to be a missing link in the OW network.

Both IAG (BA) and LATAM (LAN) have expressed an interest in launching SCL-LHR. Currently both carriers prefer to route pax traveling between SCL and LHR via either GRU and/or MAD, (BA code-shares on LAN's GRU-SCL route and LAN code-shares on both TAM's daily GRU-LHR service and on IAG's LHR-MAD services).
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Caribbean and Mexico are in North America

Prove it!
Much of the world considers (on the odd occasion it thinks about it) that North America ends at the Rio Grande, from there to the Panama Canal is Central America & beyond is South America.
Who's to say who is right or wrong, there is no world wide accepted definition of many such things, look at the threads on how many continents there are, it depends on where you went to school.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
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Tomassjc
Posts: 722
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 61):
Much of the world considers (on the odd occasion it thinks about it) that North America ends at the Rio Grande, from there to the Panama Canal is Central America

I just read that many folks in the US can't even find the Pacific Ocean, let alone North America, on a map, so this doesn't surprise me. Although I think that several million Mexicans would argue that they are NOT living in Central America, and most geography professors would agree that Central America IS part of the North American continent. Just my dos centavos.

Tomas in San Jose (California, not Costa Rica)  
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
 
bogota
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 59):
Civil Aviation is not about math.
BOG ties to the United States are larger than the ones with the UK, that's the true. Colombians like to travel to the United States, buy properties there, US corporations invest in Colombia and they are hundreds...
But look to UK... how many UK corporations are there ? Do Colombians buy properties in UK ? How many Brits visit Colombia ? What is the size of the expat community ? How many immigrants ?

That is definitely true, that is why BOG has 18+ flights a day to the USA (not counting the rest of Colombian airports). Places like Florida are just a hop away, many people live in Florida, many people have second homes in Florida and Miami is the regional office for may multinational companies that operate in the region.

But in the UK, Colombians are the second largest Latin American community after Brazilians and they are (depending on the source) the second or third number of Colombian emigrants in Europe, definitely higher than those living in France or Germany. The UK has been in the top 5 foreign Direct Investors in Colombia in the last decade, when FDI in this time period that saw growth of over 500%. And the UK has been top two the last 2-3 years in investment. The UK has invested heavily in Colombia in the last few years.

But lets not focus on Bogota, the flight connecting BOG and LHR will begin operating this week, but lets look back at the larger picture and take into account Latin America as a whole, the UK is very ill connected compared to its competing nations in Europe. Maybe it is a problem of slots, maybe it is problem with historic connections but in the end it is not good for trade between the UK and the region, regardless.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 61):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Caribbean and Mexico are in North America

Prove it!
Much of the world considers (on the odd occasion it thinks about it) that North America ends at the Rio Grande, from there to the Panama Canal is Central America & beyond is South America.
Who's to say who is right or wrong, there is no world wide accepted definition of many such things, look at the threads on how many continents there are, it depends on where you went to school.

Much of the world is wrong. Some of the Caribbean, all of Mexico, and parts of Guatemala lie on the same plate as the United States and Canada (ie, the same as the places north of the Rio Grande).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Plate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Plate
 
jfk777
Posts: 7127
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 40):
Do people know that Mexico is not in Central or South America?????

While Mexico is in NORTH AMERICA, this is a posting about BA flights to the SPANISH Speaking Americas. For purposes of BA flights to "South America" Mexico should be in "South America" and most people in the English speaking world think of it that way including this yank. "North America" as far as most poeple in North America begins at the Mexican & USA border. Thus Cuba and Jamaica are in South America.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:20 pm

Because South America was colonised by the Ibearian nations.
 
777STL
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 65):
For purposes of BA flights to "South America" Mexico should be in "South America" and most people in the English speaking world think of it that way including this yank.

That's funny, because *this* yank was taught in second grade that Mexico, Canada and the US are the three countries that make up continental North America.

And the thread title specifically refers to "South America" so I have no clue where you're coming from with this "Spanish speaking Americas" nonsense.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 65):
Thus Cuba and Jamaica are in South America.

I'll also disagree with this. The Carribean islands are apart of North America, not Central America, and not South America either.
PHX based
 
AR385
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 67):
And the thread title specifically refers to "South America" so I have no clue where you're coming from with this "Spanish speaking Americas" nonsense.

Besides, which, according to him, Brazil would be an island, I guess.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 67):
That's funny, because *this* yank was taught in second grade that Mexico, Canada and the US are the three countries that make up continental North America

I suppose that's the difference between Latin America and South America.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 65):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 40):
Do people know that Mexico is not in Central or South America?????


While Mexico is in NORTH AMERICA, this is a posting about BA flights to the SPANISH Speaking Americas.

I read the thread subject as referring to South America, not just Spanish-speaking South America.

Almost exactly half the population of South America (Brazil) speaks Portuguese, not Spanish.

[Edited 2014-06-28 13:56:20]
 
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Tomassjc
Posts: 722
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 69):
I suppose that's the difference between Latin America and South America.

Latin America extends from Mexico all the way south to Tierra del Fuego at the very tip of South America. Which has a friend of mine confused, as he now refers to Miami as the new capital of Latin America.

  

Tomas SJC
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
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RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:47 pm

There are few totally concrete definitions. Many vary depending on where you are taught, other change over time.

Two examples of changes over time here in the UK are "billion" and "Middle East".

When I was at school (which was longer ago than I really want to remember) a "billion" here in the UK was a million-million. But we knew that that was not the case in the USA. Today in the UK it is almost universally accepted that a "billion" is one thousand million. There was no decree that this change should take place. It just happened and over time! Although today a thousand million is sometimes called a "short billion" and a million million a "long billion" this is rare and was equally rare during the change from the old to the new British billion.

Again when I was at school the "Middle East" was the Indian sub-continent, Burma and Afghanistan. Today what was then called the "Middle East" seems to be most commonly described as "South Asia". Back then this geographic area lay quite logically between what we called the Far East (now more commonly called Southeast Asia) and the Near East (now more commonly called the Middle East). It seems to me that there is more logic to the Middle East being located between the Near and Far East than having a Middle East between Europe and South Asia. Put another way what is the Middle East geographically in the middle of?  
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 61):
Much of the world considers that North America ends at the Rio Grande, from there to the Panama Canal is Central America & beyond is South America.

If Mexico wasn't part of North America (it most definitely is), the North American Free Trade Agreement which comprised Canada, USA and Mexico when it was implemented in 1994, would have been called the "North American and Mexican Free Trade Agreement".

And if Mexico wasn't part of North America, the agreement NAFTA replaced wouldn't have been called the "Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement."
 
jfk777
Posts: 7127
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 67):
That's funny, because *this* yank was taught in second grade that Mexico, Canada and the US are the three countries that make up continental North America.

And the thread title specifically refers to "South America" so I have no clue where you're coming from with this "Spanish speaking Americas" nonsense.

777STL,

The travel patterns from Europe to Mexico are similar to other Spanish speaking countries. You called my "Spanish speaking Americas" nonsense but I some how have to make a distinction between Mexico being in North America and its South American spanish speaking cousins. IF you have a better way to make it then please do.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3319
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 74):
The travel patterns from Europe to Mexico are similar to other Spanish speaking countries. You called my "Spanish speaking Americas" nonsense but I some how have to make a distinction between Mexico being in North America and its South American spanish speaking cousins. IF you have a better way to make it then please do.

According to one immigration official I was processed by in MIA, North America begins somewhere north of Orlando and south of Jacksonville.  
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
av757
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

RE: Why So Few Routes From London To South America?

Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:06 am

Today July 3 is the inaugural flight to London Heathrow, Avianca flight AVA120 will depart BOG at 03:00Z and have an ETA to LHR of 1330Z.

The flight will be performed on an A330-243 registry N342AV; this one is in Star Alliance colors.

Regards,

AV757

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