Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
egph
Topic Author
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:54 am

QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:39 pm

Hey guys,

One of my interests outside of aviation is politics and international relations, I also follow the Israel crisi/situation very closely as I am very interested in all of that. I recently noted that Qatar stands out as one of the very few Muslim/Arab states that do not vehemently hate Israel but actually have a relatively good realtionship with Israel (I stress relatively). On the back of that would QR ever be interested in opening up a run to the 'forbidden city' as far as the ME3 are concerned start a run to TLV? I would imagine there would be demand from Israel for their onward connections even if Doha isn't their cup of tea! What do you guys think? Too optimistic??

Kind regards

EGPH
 
dlphoenix
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:30 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:54 pm

QR, EK and EY Sell tickets / packages in Israel.
They all require connections in AMM or Ground transportation to there.

Flying to TLV would be a problem due to the need to overfly Saudy Arabia ou Quwait.

Happy Travels
DLP
 
BravoEchoNov
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:55 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:56 pm

Emirates maybe, Etihad less likely, Qatar very unlikely.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9999
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:00 pm

Very optimistic - and I would say impossible, right now, due to the current political issues.

- The current Israeli government is seen as very inflexible even outside the Arab world; they constantly build new settlements and have effectively thrown out the best chance they had in the last 20 years to achieve a lasting peace (Oslo); they rejected Saudi attempts to achieve peace, so really as far as ME governments, they are toxic

- Qatar has made enough enemies for itself to be getting on with, what with its support for the MB and upsetting its regional neighbours - Saudi Arabia and Iran particularly. (On that point, I would question whether a country which is a strong MB supporter would also have a positive attitude towards Israel!?). Even with its current political stances, it's coming perilously close to being attacked militarily (or least subject to blockades); topping this by trying to make peace with a very hardline Israeli government would be tantamount to saying "please attack us now".

- Even if QR decided to fly to TLV, how would it get there? Most regional neighbours would probably ban overflights for TLV bound flights.

So, really, I just don't see it happening - not for a long time.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8880
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:27 pm

On top of the insurmountable political obstacles, I don't even see the economic incentive - very few Israelis would want to fly on an Arab carrier. I guess a few do fly Royal Jordanian eastwards (I am guessing) but relatively few. El Al serve Bangkok* and a few other eastern ports (India?), so why risk it on QR? Likewise, there isn't much business from Asian ports going to Israel and those who are can fly El Al or Korean Air. I know there are strong links between Israel and India but is there that much traffic? Certainly there is no hope of any traffic O&D, no Israeli passport holder can legally enter Qatar and no Qatari citizen would want to visit Israel. A bit of connecting traffic perhaps but really, the bottom line is, um, the bottom line - the traffic isn't there.

* every time I go through Bangkok I always see El Al on a remote stand next to Mahan Air or Iran Air. I am sure BKK authorities are doing this deliberately, in the hope that the pax will see the other plane and maybe for a second see the people of, respectively, Israel or Iran as human beings and not political metaphors; and likewise, perhaps the mechanics and pilots of each airline will bump into each other and exchange a civil greeting. I must say, I am a huge fan of the Thais and I am sure I am right about this.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3086
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:11 am

It will likely only happen after the peace treaty is signed between the muslim world and Israel and after the Jewish Temple is constructed in Jerusalem. Moreover, it's especially likely during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ from the throne in Jerusalem, which is 7 years after the said treaty is signed. After Christ's return & subsequent reign, there will be perfect peace amongst all nations, so it's entirely possible for the likes of QR, EK, EY and even IR to fly to TLV...and vice-versa for LY. It will be a time of rapid economic expansion and global development. So to address the OP, yes...it is very feasible ....in its right time. However, the right time is not in the present.
.......
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting BravoEchoNov (Reply 2):
Emirates maybe, Etihad less likely, Qatar very unlikely.

Ehhh, that's flopped from reality, but okay.

How is it that you can give two different answers for two airlines based in the UAE.

I feel like you just picked airline codes and your favorite adjectives and played match maker.

EK and EY aren't happening. Just no.

Neither is Qatar, but if one HAD TO happen, it's be QR. Doesn't mean it will.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting EGPH (Thread starter):
I recently noted that Qatar stands out as one of the very few Muslim/Arab states that do not vehemently hate Israel but actually have a relatively good realtionship with Israel

That's because of the Middle Eastern rule known as: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Many Sunni Arab states consider Shia Iran, or Wahabi terror groups such as Al-Qaeda/ISIL, to be the real enemy. Their common fear of Iran and ISIL bring the Israeli and Arab governments together.

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 1):
Flying to TLV would be a problem due to the need to overfly Saudy Arabia ou Quwait.

I don't think Saudi Arabia would create a problem for their good allies in Qatar and the UAE if they wanted to fly to Israel.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
- The current Israeli government is seen as very inflexible even outside the Arab world; they constantly build new settlements and have effectively thrown out the best chance they had in the last 20 years to achieve a lasting peace (Oslo); they rejected Saudi attempts to achieve peace, so really as far as ME governments, they are toxic

You can easily argue the very opposite: This current Israeli government is the only one since 1967 that has had a building freeze in the settlements, so they have built less settlements than all other previous governments.

Also, the Palestinian government today includes Hamas, which is ideologically very close to Al Qaeda/ISIL. Qatar and the UAE may be more inclined to befriend Israel because of that factor.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
- Qatar has made enough enemies for itself to be getting on with, what with its support for the MB and upsetting its regional neighbours - Saudi Arabia and Iran particularly.

See above.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
topping this by trying to make peace with a very hardline Israeli government

Qatar has never been at war with Israel, so they don't need to make peace with Israel. And they do have some diplomatic contact. They only need to establish full diplomatic relations.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
I am sure BKK authorities are doing this deliberately, in the hope that the pax will see the other plane and maybe for a second see the people of, respectively, Israel or Iran as human beings and not political metaphors;

I've met many Israelis and Iranians and know that the people of those two countries have no real problems with each other. A few years ago I actually met an Israeli Jew of Iranian origins who constantly visits his former home country again and again.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 5):
It will likely only happen after the peace treaty is signed between the muslim world and Israel

The Muslim world cannot sign a collective peace treaty with Israel. Two Muslim countries have already done so. Only Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq are technically at war with Israel and need to sign a peace treaty with Israel.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
UAEflyer
Posts: 1277
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:12 am

QR most likley, EK & EY not likley at all.

State of Qatar had some sort of direct relation with Israel through a representative office, the former Emir of Qatar visited Israel and had a talks with Israeli leadership about peace process and some mutual concern matters between the two states.
As for UAE (EK & EY) there is no direct relation with Israel and will not take place at least in the near future, as most of the Arab states, they relay on the peace process development and the acceptance of the Arab league initiative which Israel refuses for more than 10 years now.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:38 am

Since we are talking about EK, EY and QR service to TLV, what about LY service to DOH, DXB, and AUH? I would suppose if either of those three COULD fly into TLV, LY could fly to the countries of the three airlines above..?

A bit OT, however has any of those three airlines ever set foot on Israeli soil? Has LY ever had to land in any of those countries?

[Edited 2014-06-26 00:39:41]
 
omerlich
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:29 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 9):

No to all of your question.
LY to the east doesn't fly near these states to the far east.
Saudi arabia refuses to let any plane bound to TLV or any aircraft registered in the state of Israel.
In order for those airlines to come they will need saudi approval first.
 
UAEflyer
Posts: 1277
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting omerlich (Reply 10):

And it is the same with Israel, they ban any aircraft registered in some Arab countries and Iran. I wouldn't be surprised if any of the banned airlines flew to Israel grounded by a missile from the Israelis.

As for LY flying to countries in the Middle East, I think they are a. It conservative to do so, even if the political agreement took place.
 
User avatar
Coal
Posts: 2593
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:04 am

TK and PC already fly to TLV 9x daily and from IST you can connect to pretty much anywhere in the world.

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
migair54
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:11 am

I don't think this will ever happen until we see a real peace, and I dont see in the near future also.

Turkish is the one that is making gold out of this, with multiple daily flights, I think it's around 5 or 6 a day.

Quoting omerlich (Reply 10):
No to all of your question.
LY to the east doesn't fly near these states to the far east.
Saudi arabia refuses to let any plane bound to TLV or any aircraft registered in the state of Israel.
In order for those airlines to come they will need saudi approval first.

Correct, the east bound flights, BKK, fly over the red sea between Saudi and Egypt until the ocean, then east to Thailand.
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:07 pm

If an airline from another country thats not evan a muslim country, can they fly over other muslim countrys to get into TLV?
 
luckyone
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting uaeflyer (Reply 11):
And it is the same with Israel, they ban any aircraft registered in some Arab countries and Iran. I wouldn't be surprised if any of the banned airlines flew to Israel grounded by a missile from the Israelis.

Technically it's a reciprocal ban to all countries who refuse El Al/Israeli registered planes flyover privileges. That being said, were it to be lifted I can't see a ton of Israelis itching to fly to Riyadh right away.

Quoting EGPH (Thread starter):
I also follow the Israel crisi/situation very closely as I am very interested in all of that.

Can something that has been going on for over 40 years really be considered a crisis?

Quoting bchandl (Reply 6):
How is it that you can give two different answers for two airlines based in the UAE.

Perhaps he was thinking that EK being a much bigger airline from what is seen as a more "tolerant" Emirate, which throws a lot of economic weight, and EY being much closer to the official government of the UAE, that EK had a better shot.
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
Turkish is the one that is making gold out of this, with multiple daily flights, I think it's around 5 or 6 a day.

I keep getting zingers from Airfarewatchdog with (appox.) $699.00RT fares JFK X IST-TLV. They must be filling their seats because that is about half of what DL or LY would get for a non-stop JFK-TLV. But the yield? In any event, I also get zingers for similar fares on LH JFK X FRA-TLV. Given the choice I would much rather fly with LH.
IMO nothing beats a non-stop when traveling long distance so my first choices will always be DL or LY.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 5):
.it is very feasible ....in its right time. However, the right time is not in the present.

  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2770
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:50 pm

The saying 'when pigs fly' springs immediately to mind. One could also say 'when Jews and Muslims sit down around a table and enjoy a bacon burger and a few beers'. Neither is likely to happen in our lifetime.
Signature. You just read one.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:21 pm

I could definitely see EK doing this but I doubt QR would beat them to it. I also think UAE would be more inclined to get airspace permission than QR given the regional politics. You could overfly Iraq and Jordan which might not care.

The real problem is that its a small market of limited interest. You're looking at a few million Palestinians who dont earn enough to fly to Dubai often and probably wouldn't be welcome there (not all Arabs states give Visas to Palestinians partly for terror related reasons). The few million Israelis living near TLV have the same the problem. You'd have to grant tourists Visas which also means those citizens might need embassy protection in country (another issue) and all you get in return are budget conscious tourists. Connections might be the only reason it'd be viable. Even then its just a very small group. Most of their air traffic from TLV is headed north to Europe and the USA/Canada. Not South East to India or Australia.

At least for TK, the flights can head North East easily and then connect from IST to all over Europe and NA.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 18):
You'd have to grant tourists Visas which also means those citizens might need embassy protection in country (another issue) and all you get in return are budget conscious tourists. Connections might be the only reason it'd be viable. Even then its just a very small group.

Connections with one of the ME3 between Israel and Asia/Australia would likely be very lucrative, but chances are that few non-Arab Israelis would want to connect in DXB, AUH or DOH unless the half-century old Arab/Israeli feud takes a major cool.
 
Avionics09
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:08 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:15 pm

The only Arab carrier I see starting service to TLV any time in the future (besides RJ & I believe MS' subsidiary) I see coming from North Africa: There's been talks years ago about Royal Air Maroc wanting to commence service to TLV, given the huge amount of Moroccan Jews. Plans fell through ones relations between Israel, Palestine& neighboring states deteriorated. Morocco does maintain a certain degree of diplomatic relations with Israel (be it behind closed doors). RAM would be a great candidate for TLV, but for the carrier to commence service in the current situation it would mean that Morocco's relationship with Arab/Gulf countries would be at stake, a relationship (read: dependency) I don't think the country would want to sacrifice.

http://books.google.ae/books?id=xLn9...%20office%20tel%20aviv&f=false
 
EL-AL
Posts: 1476
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:29 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 18):
The real problem is that its a small market of limited interest. You're looking at a few million Palestinians who dont earn enough to fly to Dubai often and probably wouldn't be welcome there (not all Arabs states give Visas to Palestinians partly for terror related reasons). The few million Israelis living near TLV have the same the problem. You'd have to grant tourists Visas which also means those citizens might need embassy protection in country (another issue) and all you get in return are budget conscious tourists. Connections might be the only reason it'd be viable. Even then its just a very small group. Most of their air traffic from TLV is headed north to Europe and the USA/Canada. Not South East to India or Australia.

That is the chicken and egg question: Palestinians (both from PA and Israel) do not fly via TLV, because they can't get to most destenations they want from there. Most Palestinians fly when they visit relatives in other arab countries, therefore almost all of them rether take a bus to Amman (which is just 1 hour drive from Jerusalem) and to fly from there. Arabs who fly to North America or Europe to that out of TLV in many cases, just take an example in this pic I took a month ago in TLV's airside:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/7zaxp.jpg[/URL]

Quoting Avionics09 (Reply 20):
The only Arab carrier I see starting service to TLV any time in the future (besides RJ & I believe MS' subsidiary) I see coming from North Africa: There's been talks years ago about Royal Air Maroc wanting to commence service to TLV, given the huge amount of Moroccan Jews. Plans fell through ones relations between Israel, Palestine& neighboring states deteriorated. Morocco does maintain a certain degree of diplomatic relations with Israel (be it behind closed doors). RAM would be a great candidate for TLV, but for the carrier to commence service in the current situation it would mean that Morocco's relationship with Arab/Gulf countries would be at stake, a relationship (read: dependency) I don't think the country would want to sacrifice.

That is very true, more then million Israelis have origins in Morocco, which used to by the largest jewish community in the arab world.
every day is a good day to fly
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 19):
Connections with one of the ME3 between Israel and Asia/Australia would likely be very lucrative,

It's not going to be lucrative. That's exactly my point. lol. If it was lucrative economically they'd be all over it. An Arab carrier is probably going to lose 3 seats per flight just for air marshals on the inbound flights to TLV because they're going to be paranoid about the screening process in Dubai or Qatar. Plus they'll probably want to inspect the luggage and cargo themselves so you'd have to accommodate that at additional expense. The demographics above are small and you'll be splitting what limited traffic there is to East Asia/Oceania with TK, El-AL and probably some Chinese carriers down the road.

I take back my EK comment too as their smallest plane would be A330. I don't see how that'd be viable as a daily. EK doesn't like to do 3 days a week either unless they are building up for daily service.

At least QR flies A320s which is what TK also flies to TLV. That would be enough for connections I would imagine.

The Moroccan carriers is a interesting good point. I think TLV's big growth will be China, South Korea etc.. not Middle East. For economic reasons not political.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 17):
The saying 'when pigs fly' springs immediately to mind. One could also say 'when Jews and Muslims sit down around a table and enjoy a bacon burger and a few beers'. Neither is likely to happen in our lifetime.

Well, the same could be said 20 years ago about RJ. Israel and Jordan have even been at war several times. If RJ could start flights to Israel, why is it so unthinkable that a carrier from a country that has never been at war with Israel (Qatar or UAE) could fly there?
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:57 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 22):
That's exactly my point. lol. If it was lucrative economically they'd be all over it.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 22):
I think TLV's big growth will be China, South Korea etc.. not Middle East. For economic reasons not political.

You are basically contradicting yourself in the above statements. Like you say TLV has big demand to Asia because of economic reasons, yet you say that air market is not lucrative?

Israel punches way above its size and populaton in terms of high tech, biosciences, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, aerospace, defense and both on a corporate and small business level there is plenty of demand to travel to the Far East where much of the demand and manufacturing for those industries takes place.
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 15):
Perhaps he was thinking that EK being a much bigger airline from what is seen as a more "tolerant" Emirate, which throws a lot of economic weight, and EY being much closer to the official government of the UAE, that EK had a better shot.

Actually, in this matter Qatar is more tolerant. For example for UAE if you have stamp from Israel in your passport, or hold Israeli passport you need prior approval before entering UAE. For Qatar there is no such restriction. Israeli passport holders can get a visa for Qatar ( allthough it is debatable if any are issued).

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
very few Israelis would want to fly on an Arab carrier

I can only speak for QR, but you would be surprised how many Israeli nationals fly on QR. Granted, they only connect and do not enter the country. Many come from AMM, but there are quite a few from Europe and North America flying to Australia, Asia and Africa. Most popular destinations being GOI, TRV, KTM and CMB. Also since QR joined oneworld, a lot of connections are offered directly from TLV with TLV-AMM sector operated with partner RJ. However no codeshare is in place.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 25):
I can only speak for QR, but you would be surprised how many Israeli nationals fly on QR. Granted, they only connect and do not enter the country. Many come from AMM, but there are quite a few from Europe and North America flying to Australia, Asia and Africa. Most popular destinations being GOI, TRV, KTM and CMB. Also since QR joined oneworld, a lot of connections are offered directly from TLV with TLV-AMM sector operated with partner RJ. However no codeshare is in place.

Yeah, I don't think Israelis would have a problem at all flying an Arab or Islamic carrier. They fly TK all the time. Many are dual citizens anyway.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 24):
You are basically contradicting yourself in the above statements. Like you say TLV has big demand to Asia because of economic reasons, yet you say that air market is not lucrative? Not at all. I said big growth for TLV. That means like 3 flights. PEK, Inchon etc.

Israel punches way above its size and populaton in terms of high tech, biosciences, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, aerospace, defense and both on a corporate and small business level there is plenty of demand to travel to the Far East where much of the demand and manufacturing for those industries takes place.

I mean I don't see this at all. If you figure the economic base is 5.5million Jewish Israelis probably half that is taken out by being old retirees, under 21 and in school, conscripted for military duty etc.etc,) Sure there might be 3 million people in that leftover demographic that need air service but Dubai probably has 3 million Indian immigrants just by ITSELF. Plus you have to split traffic with TK, El Al and deal with the fact most traffic is heading north to Europe or North America. Sure biosciences and tech create jobs but I just don't see that much business traffic demand out of that. Israel is like a European nation with the usual 3-5% population and GDP growth rate. It doesn't look like a rainmaker to me for QR or EK. I am not even frankly sure how you'd convert from Shekels to Dinars.

Plus I don't know what cargo you'd put on the outbound flights from Tel Aviv. Products made in Israel might be hard to sell in Doha or Dubai. Most Arab countries have boycotts in place. You'd be limited to mail and other low revenue items. Ideally you want to bring back commercial goods for sale.

I don't think TLV is a honey pot for anyone in MENA, my .02.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2984
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:01 pm

It's not exactly QR and TLV related, but Has there ever been Haij flights from TLV to JED for Israeli Muslims?
What's is the Saudi policy when a Muslim Israeli passport holder travels to Saudi Arabia to visit the Islamic sites?
Do nationals from Muslim/Arab countries (at odds with Israel) have any curiosity to ever visit Jerusalem/Al-Quds and pray at Al-Haram Ash-Sharif in their lifetime?

And on the QR subject; a lot of things have to happen to see an airline from a country like Qatar flying commercial to TLV. One thing is for sure, Israelis will demand lots of security at DOH for the departing passengers and baggage.
Wonder how Egypt and Jordan currently handle those requirements.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 27):
What's is the Saudi policy when a Muslim Israeli passport holder travels to Saudi Arabia to visit the Islamic sites?

Israeli passport holders cannot enter Saudi Arabia.
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:20 am

I agree with most on the political side. I'm an expert on Israel as my day job and an ac guru by night lol. Qatari-Israeli relations are the best between Israel and any of the gulf states. Does that mean that the government of Qatar is going to piss of its neghibors by allowing flights to Israel, probably not. In the future if Qatar-Palestinain Authority-Israel-Iran and the whole world live in peace, are the economics there. I believe so, LY's routes to BKG HKG Mumbai and PEK are grossly overpriced, the product is crap and the flight time 2+ hours to do the run around the Arab nations. Israel-Far east needs some competition. Qatar coming in could be a great option/money maker. I think Qatar would defientley be the first of the gulf to start TLV. And I want a seat on the inagurarl flight. Doha here I come.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 29):
are the economics there. I believe so, LY's routes to BKG HKG Mumbai and PEK are grossly overpriced, the product is crap and the flight time 2+ hours to do the run around the Arab nations

I mean I actually just don't see the economics of this. We're talking about 5 million people with flat population growth. Mumbai has 5 million people in 1 SUBURB. Yes, I know Israel punches above its weight, but a featherweight fighting a heavyweight like India still means you get knocked out of the ring. You need real commerce to drive this and more than just intellectual property ( a lot of what Israel sells). You need foods, refined goods, non-kosher items etc. Even Pakistan down the road has much more economic potential down the road for QR. They produce Halal items and every time I am in Doha or Dubai you can see that all the packaged items from foods to simple cloth comes from either Pakistan or India. Even with total normalization of those economies you'll see people buy goods from Turkey, Pakistan and India before they by something made in Israel. Those 4 nations combined are over 1.5 BILLION people, can produce Halal items and they are emerging economies. If Israel were 150 million people it'd be different story but I just really don't see the fundamental economics behind it. QR, EK, TK's rainmakers are East not West.
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 30):
We're talking about 5 million people with flat population growth

The Israeli Population is approaching 8 Million and growing. Israel has many workers from the far east, as well as a booming high tech market. Is TLV going to bring QR the type of money Mumbai will. Of course not. Can it be profitable on 3x daily on A320's, I believe so.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 30):
We're talking about 5 million people with flat population growth.

Israel actually has more than 8 million (plus some Palestinians who are sometimes allowed to go through TLV).

In September, EK starts flights to OSL, and Norway has 5 million.

Israel has a larger population growth than Norway.

Moreover, Norway's 5 million are scattered over an area almost 20 times the size of Israel, with many international airports. Israel has one single international airport for 8 million people.

EK even flies to Malta, a country with 450,000 inhabitants.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:19 pm

Israel is a tourist hub and a high technology center. It has the economic strength to support the air service. But as long as there's a boycott, Tel Aviv will be off the radar of the MEB's.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 32):

Israel has a larger population growth than Norway.

Yeah, I'm basically excluding the 3 million Palestinians. Even if they can use TLV, the enhanced security is probably unpleasant enough for many to go AMM. More generally though, I just don't think they earn enough or have the Visas to fly anywhere.

I have particular knowledge of Norway having a expatriate friend in Stavanger and its Apples to Orange comparison. Norway is climatically cold so you have a lot of people heading south, it has huge numbers of expatriate workers in the oil and gas industry, it writes more lines of software code per capita than anywhere in the world, and it has a very high cost of living (so everywhere else looks cheap). All of that and more generate's traffic. They aren't burdened by 3 million refugees and they are sitting on the largest cash reserves per citizen in the world. It's not really similar to Israel in any significant way.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 31):
Can it be profitable on 3x daily on A320's,

Yeah this is the upper end of what I think it supports. EK doesn't even fly A320s.

There is no boom market to be had in TLV and a lot of headaches as I mentioned before. Yes you can have 3,4,5 additional flights. If Pakistan and India all develop (granted may be a while), that's going to pop 150 daily flights. That's the future for QR, EK and TK, from my POV.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2984
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 32):
Israel has one single international airport for 8 million people.

It actually has 2, the other being VDA Odva in Eilat.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 33):
srael is a tourist hub and a high technology center. It has the economic strength to support the air service. But as long as there's a boycott, Tel Aviv will be off the radar of the MEB's.

TLV still might have a draw for QR (or EK) but whenever things might get to be considered somewhat normal between Israel and Qatar (or U.A.E.), TLV flights most likely start at the lowest possible frequency, smallest equipment possible and develop as demand grows.
Had MS or RJ a well-developed hub and Asian route network - a bit similar to those of QR and EK - it'll be fair to say MS and RJ presence in TLV would be far greater than what it's now. That traffic now is mostly taken by TK via IST.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:54 pm

TK would be pissed if EK or QR began TLV, they make bank on IST-TLV.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 34):
Yeah, I'm basically excluding the 3 million Palestinians.

Israel has more than 8 million citizens with Israeli passports. (The 2 million Palestinians are not included in this figure.)

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 34):
it writes more lines of software code per capita than anywhere in the world,

Actually, Israel is Silicon Valley number 2. Much more hi-tech there than in Norway.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 34):
and it has a very high cost of living (so everywhere else looks cheap).

Israel isn't exactly cheap, either, which makes countries like India and Thailand appear very cheap (and very popular) to Israelis.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 35):
It actually has 2, the other being VDA Odva in Eilat.

I know about Ovda, I've actually landed in VDA once and departed from there twice.

But Ovda basically only serves the isolated city of Eilat, with a population of 50,000 plus lots of hotels. But more than 8 million Israelis would choose TLV and not VDA. (Even most people in Eilat would go to TLV to fly abroad.)
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 35):
TLV still might have a draw for QR (or EK) but whenever things might get to be considered somewhat normal between Israel and Qatar (or U.A.E.), TLV flights most likely start at the lowest possible frequency, smallest equipment possible and develop as demand grows.

Yeah, exactly and there is a lot of effort just to get that far. Its not really a priority for any gulf carrier, quite understandably.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 36):
TK would be pissed if EK or QR began TLV, they make bank on IST-TLV.

Yeah TK is doing well but again most of that traffic heads north and West. I suppose some people would fly south to Doha or Dubai and then backtrack north or northwest but you're looking at an additional 5 hours with connection. IST is very nearly on the way for a lot of routes.

The other threat is from LCCs from Europe like EasyJet. A320NEOs could make it very economical.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 37):
Israel has more than 8 million citizens with Israeli passports. (The 2 million Palestinians are not included in this figure.)

The per capita GDP of Norway is a staggering $100,318 per person. Israel is not even half that at $37,500. Its barely top 25. The 3 million Israeli Arabs (or whatever Palestinians) don't contribute much and it shows.

Like I said its Apples to Oranges. Norway is essentially at the top of every major category. Qatar ironically is high too but unfortunately most of its wealth its controlled by the royal families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:44 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 38):
Yeah TK is doing well but again most of that traffic heads north and West.

I agree with you on that one but I do have Israeli friends who use IST as transit from the far east.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 38):
The 3 million Israeli Arabs (or whatever Palestinians) don't contribute much and it shows.

Israel has approximately 6.5 million Jews and "others" ("others" are basically Russians who immigrated to Israel because they had Jewish family members). Around 1.6 million are Arabs with Israeli passports (mostly Muslims and Christians). They can travel anywhere an Israeli Jew can travel without a visa, e.g. several countries in Asia. But you are correct that they are on average poorer than the average Jew.

One important factor to remember is that an average Israeli has more family members living in other countries than most Europeans do.

Your GDP link was really interesting. There are several countries on that list that have a lower GDP than Israel, and a smaller population than Israel, but still has EK service, such as Cyrpus and Malta.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 38):
The per capita GDP of Norway is a staggering $100,318 per person. Israel is not even half that at $37,500. Its barely top 25. The 3 million Israeli Arabs (or whatever Palestinians) don't contribute much and it shows.

That's a pretty irrelevant stat. Do you see heavy international traffic to Asia from Norway vis a vis another European country with lower GDP as a result? No.

The difference between Israel and a lot of small countries (such as Norway, Denmark or Belgium) is that Israel 1) has a lot more niche industries where they are globally competitive and have business ties to East Asia (like biosciencies, high tech, fertilizers, defense, aerospace) 2) there is a much higher rate of entrepreneurial activity and 3) have a higher rate per capita of foreign travel and import/export than most European countries do beyond the EU. These are just facts for the record -- I do not have any affiliation to Israel politically, ethnically, religiously or culturally.
 
lychemsa
Posts: 1864
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:34 pm

Forget it. It won't ever happen.

And no they don't love Israel; in fact they even have very bad relations with Egypt.
 
directorguy
Posts: 1410
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:50 pm

Historically, Qatar (and Oman, and UAE) have been very close to Israel in terms of normalizing relations and establishing trade relations. Pretty sure Israel had a trade office in Qatar at one point. This was killed because it became politically unfeasible to continue the normalization process (which is something of a dirty word in Arab foreign relations now). Even well into the 2000s, there were trade links between Israel and the Gulf, albeit unofficially.
In a few years (or more), if things cool down, we could well see a resumption of relations-and possibly actual air services. At the moment, not likely.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 40):
Your GDP link was really interesting. There are several countries on that list that have a lower GDP than Israel, and a smaller population than Israel, but still has EK service, such as Cyrpus and Malta.

Cyprus and Malta were/are also money laundering havens on top of tourists resorts. Israel has tourism but I highly doubt there is much nefarious banking.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 40):
One important factor to remember is that an average Israeli has more family members living in other countries than most Europeans do.

That's very true and that's part of why I was saying that traffic is heading north, not south and east. Unless QR does a openskies point to point flight. TLV to LON for example.
Quoting OP3000 (Reply 41):
These are just facts for the record -- I do not have any affiliation to Israel politically, ethnically, religiously or culturally.

Yes, great facts with no references. Per Capita GDP is certainly not a perfect stat but its a frequently used one. I am sure when airlines do their analysis they factor into many stats. The real story is Asia. Singapore and Hong Kong have GDP's on par with all of Israel and they are really more City States. They are also huge logistical and aviation hubs. That's really punching above your weight IMO.
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:15 am

In a near future the only Arab carrier which could fly to TLV would be as stated before, Royal Air Maroc to/from CMN.

Giving the historical links between Morocco/France/Israel and the French jewish from Moroccan origin living now in Israel.

The King of Morocco has always protected Moroccan jewish in partiular during second worl war when Morocco was a French protectorate.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:50 pm

The Israelis are about to sign a deal to export natural gas to Egypt. I guess QR to Tel Aviv can't be any more unexpected.
 
MAN2SIN2BKK
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:53 am

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
* every time I go through Bangkok I always see El Al on a remote stand next to Mahan Air or Iran Air. I am sure BKK authorities are doing this deliberately, in the hope that the pax will see the other plane and maybe for a second see the people of, respectively, Israel or Iran as human beings and not political metaphors; and likewise, perhaps the mechanics and pilots of each airline will bump into each other and exchange a civil greeting. I must say, I am a huge fan of the Thais and I am sure I am right about this.

Thailand is more open than most countries...... go to the bars in Pattaya and you will see Arabs, Iranians, Israelis, Americans, Aussies, Brits, Germans, French, Scandinavians etc etc etc all sitting drinking together, no problems, no trouble. Keep the politicians out and everyone gets on
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 46):
The Israelis are about to sign a deal to export natural gas to Egypt. I guess QR to Tel Aviv can't be any more unexpected.

Israel and Egypt have had diplomatic relations since 1980.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: QR And TLV - Ever Likely?

Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 44):
Yes, great facts with no references. Per Capita GDP is certainly not a perfect stat but its a frequently used one. I am sure when airlines do their analysis they factor into many stats. The real story is Asia. Singapore and Hong Kong have GDP's on par with all of Israel and they are really more City States. They are also huge logistical and aviation hubs. That's really punching above your weight IMO.

Not sure where you are going with your argument, if anywhere at all. And not sure what you mean by "punching above your weight".

If your argument is that as city states Singapore and Hong Kong have high GDPs close to Israel's, and that GDP is somehow a good indicator of air traffic (as in the case you mentioned of Norway, which is a highly dubious example), then it would make sense that Israel have as much O/D air service to Asia as HKG or SIN have to Europe.

If you still disagree then that's OK, we can move on and like everyone else on here keep our own opinions.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos