Skydrol
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 145):
And, he announced a few days ago he was stepping down from his transport min position (not defense).

How strange... at the start of the video, he apparently was holding both positions because he was ''divine''




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 146):
If you're alluding to me, you're barking up the wrong tree.

No, I wasn't. I don't take you for such a simpleton, believe me.    Thanks for the 340 and 440 plots, btw.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 146):
I think that the Malaysian fog bank over anything to do with that Friday night/Saturday morning is meant to cover up more that general incompetence. But I also know that speculation about what was being covered up is not welcome on any aviation forum that likes to host pilot's conversations. Speculating about why the Malaysian Government doesn't want the underlying facts about this event uncovered might involve closer examinations of Mr. Captain Zaharie himself. There are many many people posting here who don't want to see that happen.
Quoting tailskid (Reply 146):
However, I would like to again make the point that Gong Kedak and Butterworth air bases were closed that night. We know that because they weren't considered alternate runways for an in flight emergency. The only airports open in Malaysia that night were Kuala Lumpur and Langkawi; I know of nobody who has ever disputed this. No airport - no interceptor.

        

For the record, I wasn't suggesting fighters were scrambled...only that someone very high up knew early on exactly what and WHO they were dealing with.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 147):
If training ops were in progress at Butterworth, wouldn't they close the base to any outside traffic?
Who knows, a jet fighter might even have been flying in the area as part of some training exercise.

They didn't shoot it down. Hussein tells us so. In fact, that's the one thing with any veracity. Not that you were suggesting they did. I just don't think it likely that fighters were involved during any of the critical moments. Again, per Mr. Hussein.

[Edited 2014-06-29 22:26:08]

[Edited 2014-06-29 22:26:33]
 
Backseater
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:23 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 151):
I just don't think it likely that fighters were involved during any of the critical moments.

I do not think it is likely either. But I was trying to imagine a sequence of events that would better explain Hussein' s attitude and remarks regarding a hypothetical intercept.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:49 am

Much revised version of the plot.

This time I disregarded the Malaysian's claimed location at 18:22 and took the 18:25 ping as accurate, which I certainly believe it to be. Note that the actual BTO data was retrieved at 18:29.

Then I changed the point of the turn south to NOPEK to bring my plot in line with the Australian final report.

There are again two plots, this time I calculated the speed from NOPEK to the two identified search locations (Inmarsat's "Hot zone" and Steel's prediction.) The Inmarsat location is about 2,079nm from NOPEK, Steel's location is about 2586nm from NOPEK. With 332 minutes flying time the two speeds worked out to be 376kts and 468kts.

I plotted where these speeds would intersect the ping rings and the result, while not being exact, does give a fair match. I did not factor in winds and again a constant speed Great Circle course won't provide a matching flight path.

I also added compass headings (true.)

http://imageshack.com/a/img820/880/46sl.png
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:46 am

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 152):
I do not think it is likely either. But I was trying to imagine a sequence of events that would better explain Hussein' s attitude and remarks regarding a hypothetical intercept.

        

Yeah, I know you don't. I should have worded things differently. I have a few scenarios that would fit quite well, but then, alas, they don't. LOL. Like all things MH370. However, if you accept that Mr. Keris (Malay dagger) wielding Hishammuddin somehow was well informed at the early/earliest stages, which I submit seems to be the case, one can also presume that it is he who bears a personal responsibility for the outcome (which seems to be poor). Or, maybe he knows nothing, as he claims? Uh huh. I just think it's not a coincidence that Zaharie personally couldn't stand him, and now he finds himself front and center.
  
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:02 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 145):
"Well to see where it going, you need a fighter for that? If you're talking about military procedures, and if I did shoot it down, you'd be the first to say, how can you shoot down a commercial airline with twent- 14 nationals, half of them Chinese, I'd be in a worse position probably".

I think this perfectly frames the dilemma he faced, only I think it possible he faced it in real time. If he knew something, it is likely he knew almost everything.

And his comment "the Americans would have", seems to be a play at a sort of moral equivalency. Like, you don't know crap, but let me assure you that I was confronted with two horrible choices (although scrambling may not have been an option), and I choose the lesser of two evils (and am therefore better than the gold standard Americans).
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:49 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 153):
Then I changed the point of the turn south to NOPEK to bring my plot in line with the Australian final report.

Thanks again. What about MEMAK? I haven't seen this wp mentioned (I'm probably not understanding something).

Also, can someone tell me if the ground telephony calls from MH were confirmed to ONLY be the 2 that we aware of (would there be any digital record of any calls attempted between 0:121 and 02:25 UTC other than in MH logs)?? If true, this makes no sense. These are calls from MH. So 4hrs 34min goes by before another attempt is made? It would seem that an order was given to not call after the first attempt. Anyone else have a better explanation? Would this be SOP? I certainly can't imagine that this would be the case.
 
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Istanbuler83
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:44 pm

I don't know, if it has been discussed before but on the very first day (8th of March) MAS announced that MH370 landed in Nanning, China. From which source they got that information? Could that scenario with Nanning be a clue for the unknown final location of MH370? Here is the link:

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/ma...rifying-if-mh370-landed-in-nanning
Istanbuler83
 
flyenthu
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:29 pm

Anyone heard of these power outages in the plane?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ne...obe-550506?pfrom=home-otherstories
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 158):
Anyone heard of these power outages in the plane?

Yes, it has been evident since the Inmarsat satellite logs were published end of May, and further discussed after the ATSB full report was published (see for example reply #12 in this thread discussing the findings in the ATSB report). Media is now slowly picking up the story.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 156):
Also, can someone tell me if the ground telephony calls from MH were confirmed to ONLY be the 2 that we aware of

Those were "ground initiated" - they were calls to MH-370.

There were no others, Inmarsat released the log of every transaction between satellite and 9M-MRO.

Note: They did not release the data. The data from the 1:07:48 ACARS message is owned by Malaysian Air, not Inmarsat.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 160):
Those were "ground initiated" - they were calls to MH-370.

Yeah...poor wording on my part. I know they were 'ground initiated', not from MH370. I was using MH as Malaysian Airlines. My point was, these were not from the GES, right. They were calls initiated by Malaysian Airlines, from headquarters, or somewhere? Maybe I'm just really confused.

But if these were from Malaysian Air HQ, would they have registered in the Inmarsat logs, as SATCOM was 'off' from 17:21-18:25?

So, is it possible other attempts were made that we don't know about? I'm obviously confused about the origin of these two calls.

[Edited 2014-06-30 18:21:21]
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 161):
from headquarters, or somewhere?

We have no way to know.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 161):
So, is it possible other attempts were made that we don't know about?

No, not unless Inmarsat is falsifying their records.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:31 pm

I think it is possible to determine that most likely any ditching would have been uncontrolled and therefore a high energy impact creating debris.

Assuming the A/C was at altitude FL350. Consider the possible situations, either the A/C was pressurized or it was unpressurized.

If the A/C was pressurized, and the ditching was successful without any significant debris then the pax could have used the life rafts and the ELTS would have been triggered. Any ELT signal would have been picked up immediately by satellites with A/C id and the location. The fact that no ELT signal was received means that this scenario is very unlikely.

Consider the unpressurized case. We know that some people can survive high altitude exposure for extended periods of time. For example, http://flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-jun97.pdf show that as of 1997, 6 out of 8 (relevant) stowaways survived high altitude flights and we know that just recently a person survived a high altitude flight in the wheel well from the US to Hawaii. These statistics are rough, but they do indicate a degree of survivability. Therefore, it is likely that a reasonably large proportion of the pax would have survived unpressurized flight at FL350. It is likely that some of these pax would have regained consciousness in a controlled ditching scenario. Again the fact that no ELT signals were received means that a controlled ditching scenario is unlikely.

It follows given the absence of and ELT signal that most likely the ditching was uncontrolled and therefore likely to be a high energy i.e. 0.5 * mass * velocity squared. The ATSB say: "The search team considered that it was reasonable to assume that there were no control inputs following flame out of the second engine. Accordingly the aircraft would descend and...the descent would develop into a spiral."

Curtain University discuss their findings here: https://cmst.curtin.edu.au/local/docs/media_news/MH370%20media%20release%202014.pdf The event time they have is 0135 UTC and the last ACARS transmission was at 0019. So that is 76 minutes, about 500 ft/min. Not sure about the glide profile but this ROD seems too low. Seems hard to reconcile with the last ping time 0135 UTC, could the second engine have kept going (perhaps intermittently) for longer than expected?

According to Curtain University the Chagos archipelago (a disputed territory currently occupied by UK) detectors received nothing, but this could be due to the shape of seabed. There is also some discussion about other hydrophones that have not yet been retrieved.

If the acoustic detectors in Australia that did detect a sound were now calibrated and tested for accuracy, this could be a completely independent method of getting a position or at least a position line on the source of the event recorded. Calibration could be done quite quickly by for example say three test explosives of roughly the same energy in parts of the IO close to the expected search sites.

In any case perhaps a circle centered on intersection of where the position line as recorded by the hydrophones intersects the track projected by about 60 mins past the last ping arc might be a promising place to search.

[Edited 2014-07-01 06:18:50]
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 157):
I don't know, if it has been discussed before but on the very first day (8th of March) MAS announced that MH370 landed in Nanning, China.

The very first sentence of the very link you included in your post contradicts every element of your statement:

Local authorities are still trying to verify reports that missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 has landed in Nanning in China, MAS group chief executive officer Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said today.

MAS never "announced" any such thing.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:51 pm

Correction:
So the hydrophone event at 0135 UTC is 76 minutes, about 500 ft/min from FL350. Not sure about the glide profile but this ROD seems too low. Seems hard to reconcile with the last ping time 0019 UTC, could the second engine have kept going (perhaps intermittently) for longer than expected?
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:14 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 163):
So that is 76 minutes, about 500 ft/min. Not sure about the glide profile but this ROD seems too low. Seems hard to reconcile with the last ping time 0135 UTC, could the second engine have kept going (perhaps intermittently) for longer than expected?

This would be AFTER fuel exhaustion. As you quoted from the ATSB, the search team considers 00:19 to be the flame out (no second engine thrust beyond this point). If the second engine had kept going, we would not have had the re-boot (as I understand it). The theoretical ROD to 01:35, as you correctly point out, is completely nonsensical. An a/c in spiral descent is exceeding these rates by orders of magnitude. AF447 was estimated to be somewhere around 9,700fpm, IIRC.

Anyways, there seem to be 'legitimate' reasons to believe in both controlled and uncontrolled. The reasons to believe a controlled ditching to be more likely are: We don't have a shred of debris, despite the largest arial search ever performed. This could just be happenstance, the enormity of the task or the completely wrong area, but nonetheless, we have nothing.

For those of us who know this was no accident, an uncontrolled ditching would seem to be inconsistent with the facts as we understand them. Zaharie could have offed himself, theoretically, at any time between 18:30-04:19, either by depressurizing the a/c for the first time, the second time, or killing himself in some other manner. He also could have made the decision that an uncontrolled, high impact crash was desirable, and patiently awaited this inevitable outcome.

However, it is somewhat more likely that he wanted to control everything until the very end. It's hard to really establish what his frame of mind may have been, but is seems rather unlikely that his life came to an end at the beginning or middle of the 'southern leg'.

Also, although pax could have survived at FL350, this is much more unlikely at higher FL's. We don't know whether the a/c flew above this FL or not, but it is of course very possible.

Lastly, the glide profile from FL350 won't enable the flight to carry on for another 76 minutes, so it is hard to reconcile. I seriously doubt the acoustic 'event' being MH370, but who knows.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
We don't have a shred of debris, despite the largest arial search ever performed. This could just be happenstance, the enormity of the task or the completely wrong area, but nonetheless, we have nothing.

This could be true, of course, and yet, it may not be either.
If we think back, as soon as the Indian Ocean was suspected, satellites found heaps of debris, everywhere, all of it white; something like half a dozen pieces in one picture.

Having travelled many a time across that ocean, albeit a bit further south, I can assure you that it is not a floating garbage dump. What we've seen there in the satellite pics is unusual, I reckon.

Whether the colours have any significance in that situation I don't know.

There were pieces said to be well over ten metres long but we've never been shown a single, clear photo of any of it. Why?

In fact, to my knowledge, there have been no photos made public that show at least just one of the more important or larger pieces in any clear detail. All we have is those out-of-focus satellite pics.
Why not more, to be up-front?
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 167):
Having travelled many a time across that ocean, albeit a bit further south, I can assure you that it is not a floating garbage dump. What we've seen there in the satellite pics is unusual, I reckon.

  

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 167):
If we think back, as soon as the Indian Ocean was suspected, satellites found heaps of debris, everywhere, all of it white; something like half a dozen pieces in one picture.

With hindsight, some 3 months removed, this is quite interesting. What WERE some of the larger cross sections in the imagery? Has this ever been established? Or, could they just not locate these sizable chunks?

I've 'sailed' (and motored) across the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian and Mediterranean...didn't see squat garbage wise. That's not to say that our Oceans aren't incredibly polluted, they are. But unless you're in high concentration gyres (which i never encountered), it hardly feels like garbage-strewn water. Thinking back, this was 20 years ago, what was really remarkable was the lack of visible detritus and trash.

Youngmans, how would you describe the gyres, if you've seen them firsthand? The size, scope, concentration? Just curious>

[Edited 2014-07-01 17:02:25]
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 167):

AFAIK, all of those debris reports were followed up and checked.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 169):
AFAIK, all of those debris reports were followed up and checked.
OK, and what were the 'findings'? Just garbage? Particularly, the imagery that showed sizable something or other. At the time I remember being satisfied that they had been rightly dismissed, but now, for the life of me, I can't remember why? Any more detail before I go waste an hour looking this crap up? Thanks.

[Edited 2014-07-01 17:29:42]
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
This would be AFTER fuel exhaustion. As you quoted from the ATSB, the search team considers 00:19 to be the flame out (no second engine thrust beyond this point). If the second engine had kept going, we would not have had the re-boot (as I understand it). The theoretical ROD to 01:35, as you correctly point out, is completely nonsensical. An a/c in spiral descent is exceeding these rates by orders of magnitude. AF447 was estimated to be somewhere around 9,700fpm, IIRC.
Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
Lastly, the glide profile from FL350 won't enable the flight to carry on for another 76 minutes, so it is hard to reconcile. I seriously doubt the acoustic 'event' being MH370, but who knows.

Yes it is difficult to reconcile. I would be very interested to know whether the hydrophones could pick up an impact in the search area in both cases i.e. controlled and uncontrolled ditching. If the hydrophones can detect both high and low energy impacts, then that would mean that if the A/C went down in the search area it should have been detected by the hydrophones. If the 0135 event is not MH370 and tests prove that the hydrophones could have detected both types of ditching, then we would have to ask why the hydrophones did not detect anything else. Some implications might be: i.) the ditching energy was below the threshold of the hydrophones, or ii.) the ditching occurred outside the range of the hydrophones, or iii.) the 0135Z event is the sound of the impact (despite it seeming to be contrary to flame out theory).

As I hope you can see, I am simply trying to squeeze every last bit of information out of the data, to see what it tells us. I am not trying to prove one version over another. We have two pieces of information, a sound recorded by the hydrophones at 0135Z and NO sound recorded at any time shortly after the proposed flame out time 0019.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 171):
As I hope you can see, I am simply trying to squeeze every last bit of information out of the data, to see what it tells us. I am not trying to prove one version over another. We have two pieces of information, a sound recorded by the hydrophones at 0135Z and NO sound recorded at any time shortly after the proposed flame out time 0019.

  

I know. I am hopeless, delusional Zaharie did it guy, but I welcome your posts as they are thought provoking. I also appreciate your neutrality and objectiveness.

Being lazy, again...are these the same hydrophones that were a part of the UN nuclear test ban treaty? Many posts ago there was a brief discussion about this. This may indeed be the same thing. BUT, I recall something about one hydrophone that picked up something that morning being like a 1,000 miles west and NORTH of the search area. Sound familiar to anyone?

[Edited 2014-07-01 18:40:43]
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:39 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
AF447 was estimated to be somewhere around 9,700fpm, IIRC.

AF 447 was not a spiral dive. It was semi-controlled flight outside the tested and certified envelope, at angles of attack ranging between 45 and 60 degrees.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
For those of us who know this was no accident

Point of order: you don't know. You only think you know, which introduces an important element of delusion.

You will no doubt have noted that the new Australian search area excludes those areas that would have been accessible by a controlled glide from cruise altitude, more than 30 nm beyond the 0:19Z flame-out ping. They're not even going to look there, which speaks volumes about what they think about your theory.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 173):
You will no doubt have noted that the new Australian search area excludes those areas that would have been accessible by a controlled glide from cruise altitude, more than 30 nm beyond the 0:19Z flame-out ping. They're not even going to look there, which speaks volumes about what they think about your theory.

That's just a ridiculous statement. My theory is that Zaharie is the sole culpable actor responsible for this a/c being missing. Nothing more. It's very possible the a/c crashed uncontrolled. I frankly don't care. BTW, you would have no idea as to how far he glided, anyways. Could have been 10 miles for all you know.

Furthermore, the absurdity of suggesting that the ATSB thinks nothing of the theory that the CAPTAIN was responsible is quite humorous, if it wasn't, uhm, delusional.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 173):
AF 447 was not a spiral dive. It was semi-controlled flight outside the tested and certified envelope, at angles of attack ranging between 45 and 60 degrees.

Right...and to my point, it descended at roughly 9,700fpm!!! Not the 500fpm that was discussed between myself and bluesky9. If you are suggesting that an uncontrolled descent of a t7 from altitude would not exceed 500fpm, welcome to Mars.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 168):
Youngmans, how would you describe the gyres, if you've seen them firsthand? The size, scope, concentration? Just curious>

I don't think one can actually "see" a gyre as such, because they are big; big as in 'huge'.
A couple gyres are of interest to us here, though ... There is one off the Western Australia coast and it probably wouldn't let much debris drift ashore there. My guess would be that things end up in Indonesia, instead; which in turn takes more time.
The other one is the Antarctic Circumpolar Current; it too won't let anything go ashore there.
Not that pack ice would anyway; this was asked a few days ago.

There is much more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_gyre
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 173):
You will no doubt have noted that the new Australian search area excludes those areas that would have been accessible by a controlled glide from cruise altitude, more than 30 nm beyond the 0:19Z flame-out ping. They're not even going to look there, which speaks volumes about what they think about your theory.

The only thing another 'new' search area almost 4 months on speaks volumes about is authorities not having a clue  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 170):

I am just going from memory of news reports and board discussions.
 
LH707330
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 173):
Quoting sipadan (Reply 166):
For those of us who know this was no accident

Point of order: you don't know. You only think you know, which introduces an important element of delusion.
Quoting sipadan (Reply 174):
My theory is that Zaharie is the sole culpable actor responsible for this a/c being missing. Nothing more. It's very possible the a/c crashed uncontrolled. I frankly don't care. BTW, you would have no idea as to how far he glided, anyways. Could have been 10 miles for all you know.

It's fine to have a theory like yours, but WingedMigrator is pointing out, as myself and others have done in the past, that you're using absolutist language that disregards other possibilities. You've made your case for why you think Zaharie did it, and I find it plausible, but you have not yet presented us with an honest critique of other theories that makes them sufficiently improbable to assert your case so strongly. Your theory may well be right, as may some permutation of mine, but your hyperbole (.00000000001% accident comment) and certainty ("know this was no accident") undermines your credibility and makes you appear to suffer from tunnel vision.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 174):
Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 173):
AF 447 was not a spiral dive. It was semi-controlled flight outside the tested and certified envelope, at angles of attack ranging between 45 and 60 degrees.

Right...and to my point, it descended at roughly 9,700fpm!!! Not the 500fpm that was discussed between myself and bluesky9. If you are suggesting that an uncontrolled descent of a t7 from altitude would not exceed 500fpm, welcome to Mars.

I think he was only referring to AF447, not speculating about MH370 descent rate.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:00 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 178):
It's fine to have a theory like yours, but WingedMigrator is pointing out, as myself and others have done in the past, that you're using absolutist language that disregards other possibilities. You've made your case for why you think Zaharie did it, and I find it plausible, but you have not yet presented us with an honest critique of other theories that makes them sufficiently improbable to assert your case so strongly. Your theory may well be right, as may some permutation of mine, but your hyperbole (.00000000001% accident comment) and certainty ("know this was no accident") undermines your credibility and makes you appear to suffer from tunnel vision.

Do you not think I am not acutely aware of the "absolutist" language I choose to use? That I choose not to bother with pretense does not equate to the myopia that you craftily suggest.

So now I have to "critique other theories" and prove them "sufficiently improbable" to assert my case so strongly? Huh? You and I both know full well that what is "sufficiently improbable" for one, is no where near this artificial standard for another. And, furthermore, every scenario other than Zaharie being the responsible party is sufficiently improbable on its own. Why don't you float your 'permutation' again, and if it doesn't involve in Zahaire I'll knock it out in a whimsical minute.

You'll be sitting on the fence for years. I feel the evidence incontrovertibly points to Zaharie. That I have failed to convince others of this is not a concern of mine, nor is my 'credibility'. I want the a/c to be found, the mystery solved, the families to be told the truth, not some pedestal fire malarkey. To posit this, in this instance, is to ignore so much evidence to the contrary as to be shameful.

[Edited 2014-07-02 11:07:51]

Many posters here aside from myself have used very similar absolutes. Maybe, just maybe, there exists a sound reason for this...such as looking at the totality of EVERYTHING and coming to one fairly obvious conclusion, IMO.


[Edited 2014-07-02 11:15:15]
 
bradmovie
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:00 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 179):
I feel the evidence incontrovertibly points to Zaharie.

What evidence? There is no "evidence" at this point. And if the authorities are hiding something or know more, we certainly don't have access to it. So what evidence?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:07 pm

I would say that the latest report moves the pointer from "we don't know/neutral" towards "deliberate action".

I don't think it's definitive, I just think it leans that way.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:09 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 180):
So what evidence?

The evidence is built into the circumstance before us. Mechanical fault of any kind can be ruled out by the sequence of events 9M-MRO incurred. Hijacking by a passenger (or cabin crew member) can also be ruled out by the same sequence of events. Yet it did happen, so the only possibility left is that one of the flight deck members "hijacked" the flight.

Upon examination, the First Officer can all but be ruled out for a number of obvious reasons. A similar examination of the Captain's behavior indicates that he had reason to be at odds with the management of the company and the nation of Malaysia. He had an unusual technical ability also which the perpetrator of this event obviously had in spades.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 180):
There is no "evidence" at this point.

Okay...try looking at EVERYTHING...do you know about: HIS HERO IDOLATRY, UNMO, PKR, Ambang 13, Mr. H, Tim Pardi, Adam Adii, Zaharies fondness for all things circuitry, that he made the last transmission, that he espoused blood sacrifice for the greater good, that he lavishly praised martyrs, that the plane is missing, the timing of it all, the incomplete read back which now even his wife has confirmed was by him, the 'switch' on comms, the intimate knowledge of the airspace, the Anwar trial, that it was Fariq's first flight, that he called for violent resistance, the redundant maintaining transmissions, that he suddenly stopped all FB posting, democracy is dead t-shirt, his daughters comments about no longer knowing him (which she sheepishly, though understandably tried to deny), capability, opportunity, motive...Here are a few of his own words, and quotes he posted and endorsed:

"there is a rebel in each and everyone of us.. let it out! dont waste your life on mundane life style. When is it enough?

"Pru 13 over, so its time they try to dismantle us. We r not going to be quiet.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. - Desmond Tutu

" The SOLDIER FOUGHT HIS BATTLE SILENTLY

Not his the strife that stays for set of sun;

It seemed this warfare never might be done;

Through glaring day and blinding night fought he.

There came no hand to help, no eye to see;

No herald’s voice proclaimed the fight begun;

No trumpet, when the bitter field was won,

Sounded abroad the soldier’s victory.

As if the struggle had been light, he went,

Gladly, life’s common road a little space;

Nor any knew how his heart’s blood was spent;

Yet there were some who after testified

They saw a glory grow upon his face;

And all men praised the soldier when he died.

This is most telling of all. Yeah, no evidence whatsoever. BTW, this is just the smallest sample of Zaharie. Sure he had no role in the a/c VANISHING.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 182):
Mechanical fault of any kind can be ruled out by the sequence of events 9M-MRO incurred.

Why should the search be continued if this is remotely true? What is there to find out that isn't already "known" by the close-minded masses of a.net? There is nothing further to be gleaned from the flight recorders or the wreckage.

Meanwhile, back in reality, mechanical fault of some sort leading to a major smoke event is very much still a possibility, among a number of other possibilities.

Just because any given possibility is remote is not sufficient basis for dismissing it. Recall that the possibility of a 777 vanishing for months is quite remote, and yet here we are.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 184):
mechanical fault of some sort leading to a major smoke event is very much still a possibility, among a number of other possibilities.

Vague generalizations are just vague generalizations: aka meaningless verbiage.

Please inform us what type of smoke event could shut off (multiple) radio comms, ACARS, Radar Transponder and the satellite modem/transmitter (only to have it turned back on later), and do this at different times?

This same failure has to cause the plane to reverse course - and while avoiding Thai radar make its way to the Malacca straits and fly along FIR boundaries until it was past Indonesian airspace - whereupon it turned south (making this turn in two steps so as to avoid Indonesian Radar) re-powered the sat transmitter and flew on autopilot until fuel exhaustion.

What mechanical fault could cause all that?
 
bradmovie
Posts: 71
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:52 pm

I agree that it certainly "looks like" Zaharie may have done this deliberately, but that does not mean it is the only possibility. As I said, at this point there is no evidence. I will continue to leave it to the professionals in the aviation industry to look at every possible scenario scientifically, and find real evidence for what happened.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:53 pm

In all of this, there are quite a number of unexplained, how can one call it, ...unexplained coincidences.

MH-370's cargo was not screened that night!
There were rumours of a load of gold on the aircraft.
Two people travelled on that flight with stolen passports.
20 high ranking people of the same hi-tech company were on the same flight.
Four of those are said to have had the rights to patents which have now fallen exclusively to Rothschild.
Three or four days after the disappearance of MH-370, those rights were granted.
And yet, there are also other rumours that four people did not board the flight.
Both the Captain and the FO were superficially patted down before entering the secure area.
A fire bottle washes up somewhere in the Maldives.
Underwater noise seems to have been recorded coming from that general direction.
An oil rig crew member reports having seen something on fire crashing into the sea.
There are rumours of MH-370 having been shot down, accidentally or otherwise.
The Malaysian Minister hints or alludes to something in that direction.
There are plausible rumours about directed-energy weapons (which leave no debris).
Initial searches were in the wrong areas.
And we haven't mentioned the Chinese and their efforts.
Then, suddenly, we had Inmarsat data.
The data points to specific locations - at the other end of the world.
No debris is found there.
But, lo and behold, they hear pings, presumed from the black boxes.
Millions of dollars later, nothing, sorry.
Double-check the data; and we now have a new search location.

There is probably a lot more that could and/or should be added to this list.
One thing is for sure, though, something doesn't quite look right here .., or simple ..., or straight forward!
Me thinks ....

And on an afterthought:
And to end up with the mother of all coincidences, they suddenly find wreckage in the new search area, and rather quickly. But, try as they might, they just can't find the black boxes ....

[Edited 2014-07-02 16:09:40]
 
tailskid
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
unexplained coincidences.

This reads more like a list of innuendos and irrelevancies.

MH-370's cargo was not screened that night!
Says who?

There were rumours of a load of gold on the aircraft.
Rumors? This is the wrong forum for those.

Two people travelled on that flight with stolen passports.
Yea so?

20 high ranking people of the same hi-tech company were on the same flight.
Yea so? (they were technicians not corporate officers)

Four of those are said to have had the rights to patents which have now fallen exclusively to Rothschild.
Three or four days after the disappearance of MH-370, those rights were granted.
OMG!! The Jews did it!

And yet, there are also other rumours that four people did not board the flight.
More rumors!

Both the Captain and the FO were superficially patted down before entering the secure area.
As usual.

A fire bottle washes up somewhere in the Maldives.
And somewhere along the shore of Lake Michigan an empty beer can washes up - so?

Underwater noise seems to have been recorded coming from that general direction.
But nobody can say whether it was just another wave crashing down or not! - No big noise.

An oil rig crew member reports having seen something on fire crashing into the sea.
The oil rig worker clearly described what he saw as being in a place MH-370 could not have been.

There are rumours of MH-370 having been shot down, accidentally or otherwise.
LOL - more rumors!

The Malaysian Minister hints or alludes to something in that direction.
Huh?

There are plausible rumours about directed-energy weapons (which leave no debris).
rumors is spett r-u-m-o-r-s

Initial searches were in the wrong areas.
Yes we know that.

And we haven't mentioned the Chinese and their efforts.
You just did but we don't know what you're talking about.

Then, suddenly, we had Inmarsat data.
First it wasn't - then it was!! Just like the morning paper.

The data points to specific locations - at the other end of the world.
That's obviously relative to one's own position. (West Australians might take offense)

No debris is found there.
Nope

But, lo and behold, they hear pings, presumed from the black boxes.
Millions of dollars later, nothing, sorry.
Double-check the data; and we now have a new search location.[/quote]
Two of em if you count Duncan Steel (which I don't)
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6977
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:52 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 184):
Recall that the possibility of a 777 vanishing for months is quite remote, and yet here we are.

That is because most people were unaware that the 777 among other planes was designed in a way that a consequence of such design is the ability for the plane to vanish so easily. Transponder off and comms off (for whatever reason) at the right place and time and we have MH370. In hindsight MH370 should not be a surprise but rather a concern. Whether this was a very freak accident, the result of a nutcase or something more intentional, that a large jetliner carrying hundreds of passengers can just vanish like MH370 did needs to be addressed and, moreover, should never have been able to happen so easily...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
CabSauv
Posts: 35
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 188):
rumors is spett r-u-m-o-r-s

LOL, only if you are an a-m-e-r-i-c-a-n.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rumour?q=rumour

Seriously though, I do not think Youngmans implied that he believes those rumours. He was simply listing a few weird and wacky theories / rumours.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting Wingedmigrato:r Recall that the possibility a t7 vanishing for months is quite remote, and yet here we are.

No s**t. I wonder why we are here? Oh, that's right, because it flew ITSELF to the ends of the earth, by accident LOL.    Off to the SIO we go. Come on. But first we'll skirt some FIR's, dodge some radars, make a few turns, loose all our comms, then miraculously get some of them back. And, we'lll have Fariq's phone ping off a tower near Penang, but no others pax phones.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
There are rumours of MH-370 having been shot down, accidentally or otherwise.
The Malaysian Minister hints or alludes to something in that direction.

No, read my post on this and listen to the CARO interview again. He tells us quite the opposite. The one and only thing he seems to want to make clear is the he did NOT SHOOT IT DOWN. As Zaharie said, and liked to call Mr. H, this guy is a REAL JOKER. The actions between KLATCC and MAS that evening are particularly interesting. Seems like the folks at MAS were engaged in some deceptive practices, not mere confusion. Where was Mr. H at this time? The timeline of the communications and actions taken between KLATCC, HCH ATC, and MAS are fascinating, with hindsight. Not buying the idea that MAS thought the plane was in Cambodia air space...sure seems like they were trying to confuse the issue further, all the while buying time.

For some reason I can't post the link, but just google kl atcc and a few sites have transcripts of just these interactions...Borneo Post is one.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 184):
Why should the search be continued if this is remotely true?

This is a question worthy of serious consideration.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 185):
What mechanical fault could cause all that?

Come on..had to be the hypoxic, pedestal smoker, toxic gas, lithium-ion combo. This can't keep happening. For the love of god.

[Edited 2014-07-02 18:52:06]

[Edited 2014-07-02 18:53:18]

[Edited 2014-07-02 18:55:00]

[Edited 2014-07-02 18:55:45]
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 186):
I agree that it certainly "looks like" Zaharie may have done this deliberately,

Right...so why be met with such derision when we assert this. That I believe it to the exclusion of all other things doesn't detract from it being by far the most likely scenario. And yet, people act like this is taboo to touch.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 188):

Your reply is as interesting and telling as the litany of coincidences, contradictions, theories, impossibilities (mechanical & operational) and, yes, mysteries surrounding flight MH-370.

I'm just wondering whether any and all of the by now forgotten issues are and were simply that, coincidences.
These are the issues that raised question marks at the time, or still even now.
And as we all know, some of those issues were hotly debated on these threads and elsewhere.

Or is there a possibility that, besides whatever it is that might have happened, there is still a lot more to the disappearance of 9M-RMO than what has been identified so far. Whichever way one sees this, it would be much more than what the public has been told so far.
 
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Finn350
Posts: 1595
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 191):
The actions between KLATCC and MAS that evening are particularly interesting. Seems like the folks at MAS were engaged in some deceptive practices, not mere confusion. Where was Mr. H at this time? The timeline of the communications and actions taken between KLATCC, HCH ATC, and MAS are fascinating, with hindsight. Not buying the idea that MAS thought the plane was in Cambodia air space...sure seems like they were trying to confuse the issue further, all the while buying time.

While we probably agree on the most likely scenario in general, I don't buy that MAS or anyone else could have known there was foul play involved in the early hours after the disappearance of MH370. There was confusion, to be sure, but how could anyone have presumed anything else than a communications break or an accident?
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2339
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:23 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 191):
Not buying the idea that MAS thought the plane was in Cambodia air space

MH just assumed thats where it should have been at that time and probably assumed there was a regular comm error. Obviously assumptions are not always good, I dont make them in our industry because they come back to make an ass out of u and me.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
MH-370's cargo was not screened that night!

Fact or assumption? Asked many times and never seen this proved or otherwise.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
There were rumours of a load of gold on the aircraft.

What good is gold on the floor of the SIO?

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
A fire bottle washes up somewhere in the Maldives.

That belonged to a Twin Otter, not a surprise in the Maldives where it is the most prolific aircraft.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 187):
Two people travelled on that flight with stolen passports.

Happens all the time, particularly in that area.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 192):
That I believe it to the exclusion of all other things doesn't detract from it being by far the most likely scenario

Something really unusual happened. It is unlikely, but there is no reason to rule out someone entered the cockpit and forced the crew to make these actions and they tried to trick them into thinking they were doing what they wanted but ended up dead with the a/c remaining on autopilot. We could go all out wacko and think that the aircraft is indeed hijacked and on some makeshift runway on some small runway Tintin Flight 714 style being loaded up with uranium as we type. However unrealistic these things are, a widebody disappearing for almost 4 months is also unprecedented so you can not absolutely state something is absolutely true because it seems the most likely just because you have performed a physcho analysis on Zaharie from Facebook.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 192):
Right...so why be met with such derision when we assert this. That I believe it to the exclusion of all other things doesn't detract from it being by far the most likely scenario. And yet, people act like this is taboo to touch.

Actually if it was pilot suicide it would fit better to the case of the copilot who had all the reasons to disappear in a mysterious flight accident. As Mandala has pointed out his family apparently blocked his planed marriage to his sweetheart an Air Asia captain because of her being a higher rank than his.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:54 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 194):
While we probably agree on the most likely scenario in general, I don't buy that MAS or anyone else could have known there was foul play involved in the early hours after the disappearance of MH370. There was confusion, to be sure, but how could anyone have presumed anything else than a communications break or an accident?

For a number of reasons. Why won't Mr. H tell us at what time that morning HE first heard about MH370? He confirms that he was told that morning, but when asked around what time this was, he claims to not 'remember'. This is a flat out lie. Why is he hiding this innocuous fact??

3 people have told me that the first people to arrive at MAS that morning were from the ministers office, not MAS employees. One of those people is a very respected poster on this thread, by all. If true, this seems most unlikely unless Mr. H knew about something, SOMEHOW. Maybe this poster would care to confirm that this was indeed what he told me????

Why won't MR.H confirm or deny whether KLATCC attempted to contact MH370 that morning? He tells Caro "I'm sure they did". Then, when asked at what time this contact was attempted, he says that this kind of data "is so detailed" and refuses to then either confirm or deny whether KLATCC ever in fact did try. It is clear that they did not!!! Why???

Why did MAS personnel wait almost a full 5 hrs between attempts to contact MH370, all the while answering queries from KLATCC and HCM ATC telling them it's "over Cambodia" and even giving them a set of coordinates at one point? And they went with Cambodia schtick more than once despite repeated queries. It seems that they were being directed, particularly if you accept that govt. officials were running the show at MAS by then. Doesn't 5 hours seem like an unfathomably long time? If confusion was reigning, as you suggest, attempts to contact MH370 should have been frantic and frequent.

Also, Zaharie couldn't stand Mr.H. Ironically, being the minister that he WAS (he's stepped down from his transport position), I just find these two facts quite compelling.

As you say, this could all just be confusion...that is very possible. But I also think there are some troublesome sighns that point towards Mr.H being more entwined than was to be believed.

There are scenarios which make this a plausible scenario, but I'll labeled a 'conspirator' if I were to expound.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on these points, and why they are not perhaps suggestive of a greater complexity. I mean, look at the entire friggin govt. behavior...and all the other points I made about Mr. H personalizations and justifications. Why the hell is engaged in all of this? They have brought upon themselves, but why???
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 192):
Quoting bradmovie (Reply 186):I agree that it certainly "looks like" Zaharie may have done this deliberately,
Right...so why be met with such derision when we assert this.

Not from me, so far!  

But I DO doubt the contention that the Captain, had that been his intention, would have flown the aeroplane all that way south so that it could effectively 'crash itself' by running out of fuel?

The aeroplane 'lost contact,' disappeared from 'official' radar, 40 minutes out. What's more, the Captain did not 'check in' with Vietnam ATC. So it remains perfectly possible that the aeroplane was deliberately crashed at that time? All a nearby aeroplane asked to try to contact MH370 heard was some 'mumbling'?

The WHOLE of the rest of the reported progress of the flight (up to and including the Inmarsat tracking) amounts to 'supposition' only. Radar had lost touch, the aeroplane was subsequently tracked only by 'non-specialist' military radar, and then by Inmarsat (who have very fairly admitted that they had to retune their frequencies to regain some sort of 'contact,' from which they 'hypothesised' the long southern flight)?

Only thing is, a high proportion of people who commit suicide (I believe over 50%) leave some sort of message (often enough a suicide note). Surely, had the Captain intended suicide, he had a microphone in his hand and what amounted to a worldwide audience? Surely (given the long list of sayings attributed to him by sipadan above) he'd have said something other than "Goodnight Malaysian three -five-zero'?

[Edited 2014-07-02 21:27:50]
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 68

Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 196):
Actually if it was pilot suicide it would fit better to the case of the copilot who had all the reasons to disappear in a mysterious flight accident. As Mandala has pointed out his family apparently blocked his planed marriage to his sweetheart an Air Asia captain because of her being a higher rank than his.

Okay, vs. the guy who had a fixation with martyrdom and self-sacrifice and action in the face of tyranny. Whatever. Who would you rather fly with?    And that was a political fanatic, who had gone dead silent for 9 months.

Also, can anyone explain why it was that Zaharie was flying that evening? I mean, I know he's calling ALL the shots, but since it was poor Fariq's first flight (and admittedly, I know nothing about this etiquette), one would think that he would have the 'honors'. Yes, I know there could be a million reasons, but all things being equal, i would think he would be at controls...a sort of christening flight. Just curious.

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