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usxguy
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DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:35 am

Thought this press release from Mokulele Airlines has some very interesting timing in it, as well as some quotes meant to boost the EAS program.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mokule...nds-between-kamuela-214400469.html

"Since winning the award, we've focused on delivering low fare, high-quality flights to the community by working directly with those who would use our service, and our boardings have reflected that," explains Mokulele's President and CEO Ron Hansen. Since Mokulele initiated the service, air traffic has grown more in Kamuela than in any other EAS market in the past two years. Mokulele expects to fly over 12,000 passengers in its first year of operation from Kamuela, compared to approximately 50 flown by the previous operator over a similar time period.

Mokulele will now offer 42 weekly flights between the two destinations, only 24 of which are subsidized by the EAS program. "The EAS program can truly help small communities when partnered with the right operator," Hansen adds. "Because of the EAS program, we're now able to increase flights, and hopefully grow Kamuela off of the EAS subsidy program by the end of our four-year agreement. We're doing whatever it takes to build traffic to the point the market is 100 percent self-sustaining and no longer dependent on federal dollars.


And here's an article on ending 13 markets:

http://www.politico.com/morningtrans...14/morningtransportation13731.html
xx
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:46 am

If these cuts come to fruition Its going to be interesting to see if K5 http://www.seaportair.com/route-map.php stays at MKL (Jackson, TN) and Athens, GA.
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burchfiel
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:46 am

10 enplanements a year?    That's less than one a month on average. Is that a typo or are the eligibility guidelines that low?
 
DeltaRules
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:53 am

I think it's 10,000 if I recall correctly.
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mayor
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 am

I think it's only 12 EAS markets......they listed Athens, GA, twice.
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LAXintl
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:12 am

The 2014 program pruning was announced a month or so back and we had a thread on it.

EAS Markets (by knope2001 May 4 2014 in Civil Aviation)

=
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rampart
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:25 am

I'm surprised Pueblo, CO isn't on the cut list. Maybe it's making progress to wean off if the market is growing, so are nurturing it more. I'm generally in favor of EAS to remote cities. Pueblo isn't remote. Remember when PUB sustained Frontier + Rocky Mountain Airways with multiple daily flights to DEN? Not to mention the brief TW to STL and HP to PHX? 1980s and 1990s wasn't that long ago. Maybe it was.  

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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:34 am

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 2):
10 enplanements a year?    That's less than one a month on average. Is that a typo or are the eligibility guidelines that low?
Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 3):
I think it's 10,000 if I recall correctly.


I think they are requiring 10 pax/day. Many airports are under 10,000/year that are not EAS.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:05 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 3):

I think it's 10,000 if I recall correctly.

10,000 per year is for federal funding of the airport for improvements.

For the most part, EAS east of the Mississippi Rive should be cut 99%. Id allow for flights in ME and Northern MI and one or two places in Upstate NY.
 
RJNUT
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 8):
For the most part, EAS east of the Mississippi Rive should be cut 99%. Id allow for flights in ME and Northern MI and one or two places in Upstate NY

i think that sounds reasonable ....what is your take West of MS River? i think Great Lakes has/had great coverage but were not incentiivized to make their network market friendly and that has been my big gripe about EAS in general. As much as Seaport gets bashed here (some deserved) , they have tried some clever marketing and gimmicks to become community involved. they just lack the needed connecntivity to the global network either thru code share or interlining.
 
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:33 pm

I'm not surprised about Kingman AZ. I took that route to LAS before it got transferred to LAX. Was a nice flight with only myself aboard.

KH
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SouthernDC9
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:45 pm

I suspect Sen. Thad Cochran will do what he can to save GLH and prove his worth to all the people in the MS Delta who just voted for him (and who will never in a billion years fly out of GLH, either because they're too poor to get to the airport, much less fly anywhere, or because they think they're too good for a little bitty plane (and because what's the fun of a trip if you can't go shopping in MEM or JAN before and/or after your flight?) - but that's neither here nor there)...
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Bobloblaw
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 9):
....what is your take West of MS River?

What I don't know is can single engine C208s operate in higher altitude environments. Id like to see a lot of EAS transit from 19 seaters to 9 seaters. Reason is you could have more frequency and make the routes more attractive to travelers. One reason EAS doesn't work is the one daily B1900 flight is unreliable or not convenient. Instead 2-3 C208s would be better.

I don't think most places in CA need EAS. I think the big EAS airport should be DEN connecting to KS, NE, MT, WY and CO. MCI might have a few routes to KS, NE and PHX to NM and AZ. I can see a few EAS routes from MSP.


A place like Athens GA, Tupelo, Muscle Shoals, Jackson TN having EAS is a total waste of money


Cape Air has shown they can make little cities work with good reliability and frequency. Also connecting to a WN city like STL is a huge help.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:29 pm

EAS could get a lot worse once 50 seat jets go away. There are a ton of smaller cities that have E145 or CRJ-200 jets today.

Can anyone image EAS paying to fly a E170 or CRJ700-900 to DBQ, ALO, or JLN?

Question: if SUX is getting F9 to DEN, does that take them off the EAS map for ORD flights on AA? Ditto G4, which is not a daily network carrier but if GRI and MHK has G4, can they still get EAS for DFW on AA?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):

EAS could get a lot worse once 50 seat jets go away. There are a ton of smaller cities that have E145 or CRJ-200 jets today.

50 seat jets will never totally go away. There are markets where it still makes sense to operate these planes, just not in the volume we have today.

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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
Can anyone image EAS paying to fly a E170 or CRJ700-900 to DBQ, ALO, or JLN?

   Time for 9 to 19 seaters. I suspect more of the 9 seaters due to the new(ish) pilot rules.


Lightsaber
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KPWMSpotter
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:25 pm

Well I sure know how to pick them. Every time I write an EAS Trip Report my reason is "you never know how long this airport will be around with commercial service..." Of the 12 airports closing this year, I've flown into 3 of them:

LNC: Sun Air PA-31 IAD-LNC + Amtrak Keystone Service (by KPWMSpotter Jun 27 2014 in Trip Reports)
GLH: The Mississippi Delta On Silver Airways' Saab 340! (by KPWMSpotter Jul 8 2013 in Trip Reports)
AHN: Southern Hospitality? Georgia Skies C208, ATL-AHN (by KPWMSpotter Jul 9 2012 in Trip Reports)

On all three of these flights the load factor was below 50%. Flying into Greenville I was the only passenger on the 34 seat Saab. I have to say I agree with the DOT that these routes need to be axed.

Greenville may justify some service (albeit on a smaller aircraft) simply due to its remote location, but the community certainly isn't large enough to support 3x daily on a Saab.

Athens and Macon make absolutely no sense to have EAS service; both are less than a 1.5 hour drive from the largest commercial service airport in the world, and are surrounded by other commercially served airports at a similar distance.

Lancaster is located directly on one of the only high-speed rail lines in the US, and is within easy driving distance of Philadelphia, New York, and Washington DC; it has no need for subsidized air service when the train is faster.

I'm not totally familiar with the rest of the communities, but I certainly agree that the EAS network needs some housekeeping...
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MSYtristar
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:40 pm

I'd like to see C208's take over much of the EAS flying, too. The problem is many cities don't want them. If I had it my way I'd say it's that or nothing.

MEI just selected Expressjet CRJ's to DFW...

http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/sto...n-Airport-ExpressJet/#.U63HvPldW_Q

[Edited 2014-06-27 12:40:53]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
Question: if SUX is getting F9 to DEN, does that take them off the EAS map for ORD flights on AA? Ditto G4, which is not a daily network carrier but if GRI and MHK has G4, can they still get EAS for DFW on AA?

Just to clarify, I dont think MHK is on EAS anymore. Its a fully functional route now.

MHK and GCK have been some of the best success stories from AA's EAS network. GRI has done pretty well too.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):

Is anyone still making 50 seat jets?

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):

Yeah AA has some good success in the Midwest. Can they transition to larger jets?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 19):
Is anyone still making 50 seat jets?

Is anyone still making MD-80's? Yet they still are flying? Could you order a CRJ200 or ERJ145, I would imagine so.

That said, a good number of these routes need to be operated on a 208 or similar airplane.

-DiamondFlyer

[Edited 2014-06-27 13:50:45]
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panova98
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:08 pm

Congress to the small communities of America: "DROP DEAD!"

Congress to the rest of America trying to schedule a day-trip to the small communities of Amerca: "YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK!"

Congress is intent on seeing that the EAS eligibility rules are such that NO small community will qualify for a subsidy, ever. Right now it is forcing DOT to establish EAS policy that amounts to "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic!"

In a county like ours, I think this is simply disgusting, so "penny-wise, pound-foolish!"

The EAS program, of course, can and certainly should be revised. I'd be happy to pay a couple of bucks extra on every airline ticket I buy to see that every American small community has an opportunity to have air service to and from the National Airspace System. That is, getting to and from the System, not being able to simply fly non-stop to and from every airport someone might want to go to or come from.

Of course, our highway system is nice--nicely subsidized, too--but driving is not an adequate substiute for air transportation. In this country, getting to and from airports, by auto is and is becoming such a mess. To me, a radical, I guess, air transpotation, to and from one's local community, makes sense. This is a national problem that needs a national solution. Why can't we all pay for the good of all?
 
ScottB
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
MHK and GCK have been some of the best success stories from AA's EAS network. GRI has done pretty well too.

Honestly, I think these markets are a roadmap to the way the EAS program should evolve; unfortunately, this requires picking winners & losers by consolidating EAS subsidies at a single airport in a region served by several airports. Ideally there could be some sort of subsidized bus/van shuttle service available to the cities/towns losing EAS service, either to the winning airport or nearest community with scheduled air service.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
One reason EAS doesn't work is the one daily B1900 flight is unreliable or not convenient. Instead 2-3 C208s would be better.

Most EAS markets are to receive at least 2-3 daily frequencies as part of the program requirements. The bigger issue is that the service has become progressively more unreliable due to difficulties at the small operators. This leads to a drop in passenger numbers -- since people will just drive to the nearest "big" airport if they need reliable service.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 19):
Yeah AA has some good success in the Midwest. Can they transition to larger jets?

I think some can but not all. For example (and Ill use AA at DFW as an example), markets like DFW-DSM/CID/BJX/CVG/LEX could be flown with larger RJ's or a 319. Markets like GCK and MHK probably wont get upgraded though.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 22):
Honestly, I think these markets are a roadmap to the way the EAS program should evolve; unfortunately, this requires picking winners & losers by consolidating EAS subsidies at a single airport in a region served by several airports.

Thats the way it should be though. Not every small airport can have service to a major hub nor should they.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 8):
and one or two places in Upstate NY.

Having lived a substantial part of my life in Upstate NY and a frequent visitor (3X per year), I have a lingering interest in Aviation there.

What cities/routes still require EAS service?
Places like Pottsdam? Watertown?

Rome,Utica,Syracuse,Rochester,... anything along that I-90 corridor probably has sustainable commuter flights to larger airports (Buffalo, Albany, JFK, LaGuardia).

Amtrak service along that corridor is good as well.
learning never stops.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 16):
Well I sure know how to pick them. Every time I write an EAS Trip Report my reason is "you never know how long this airport will be around with commercial service..." Of the 12 airports closing this year, I've flown into 3 of them:

LNC: Sun Air PA-31 IAD-LNC + Amtrak Keystone Service (by KPWMSpotter Jun 27 2014 in Trip Reports)
GLH: The Mississippi Delta On Silver Airways' Saab 340! (by KPWMSpotter Jul 8 2013 in Trip Reports)
AHN: Southern Hospitality? Georgia Skies C208, ATL-AHN (by KPWMSpotter Jul 9 2012 in Trip Reports)

On all three of these flights the load factor was below 50%. Flying into Greenville I was the only passenger on the 34 seat Saab. I have to say I agree with the DOT that these routes need to be axed.

Greenville may justify some service (albeit on a smaller aircraft) simply due to its remote location, but the community certainly isn't large enough to support 3x daily on a Saab.

Love this trip report, though I wish the images were still visible (or it might be my computer) - just left a comment there (way after the fact, obviously). My first flight was on a Southern DC9 out of GLH back in the day, and I have many fond memories flying out of GLH so you can imagine this is bittersweet for me (though I suspect Mississippi pols will manage to get a reprieve of some sort).

Even when we had nice (relatively speaking) service on NW/DL, making the drive to MEM or JAN and doing some shopping or going to one of the fancy city restaurants (I'm being mildly facetious, just a little bit though) was often an exciting part of a trip - and because so many in the MS Delta have family in JAN/MEM, a plane trip out of one of those airports would often be connected with a quick visit with somebody. And that dynamic was always combined with either real or perceived higher fares out of GLH. To me that will always be a bit of a thing with air service out of GLH, regardless of what happens.

I also remember one time (back when it was still NW/DL, I think), the mayor of Greenville (who was naturally a champion of GLH air service) made a trip to DC to lobby for the air service, and someone from the paper asked if she had flown out of GLH, and the mayor was suspiciously evasive about it, and eventually went with the story that because of security concerns, the details of any trip couldn't be discussed because yeah, right.
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KELPkid
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:27 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
What I don't know is can single engine C208s operate in higher altitude environments.

They CAN, but the question is can they do it with passengers. The pilot would have to be on oxygen under the rules...IIRC, you are allowed a cabin altitude of up to 15,000 feet without giving the passengers oxygen. Not wise to do so, but you can do it.

The PT-6 has no problems whatsoever at higher altitudes. You'd think Cessna would wise up and offer a P208 (P=Pressurized in Cessna speak!). It might entail putting a bigger model of the PT-6 in the pointy end to handle the bleed air load...
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doug_or
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting panova98 (Reply 21):
I'd be happy to pay a couple of bucks extra on every airline ticket I buy to see that every American small community has an opportunity to have air service to and from the National Airspace System

I wouldn't be.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):
You'd think Cessna would wise up and offer a P208 (P=Pressurized in Cessna speak!). It might entail putting a bigger model of the PT-6 in the pointy end to handle the bleed air load...

The 208 is pretty boxy. I'm not sure who big of a redesign it would require. Though I suppose the PSI load would be pretty small if you were just trying to get into the FL180-240 range.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):
The PT-6 has no problems whatsoever at higher altitudes. You'd think Cessna would wise up and offer a P208 (P=Pressurized in Cessna speak!). It might entail putting a bigger model of the PT-6 in the pointy end to handle the bleed air load...

The plane would get vastly heavier. Look at the empty weight of a 208 versus a PC12. Roughly 1300 pound difference (granted not all of it is due to pressurization, but a good chunk is).

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Dalmd88
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 24):
What cities/routes still require EAS service?
Places like Pottsdam? Watertown?

Rome,Utica,Syracuse,Rochester,... anything along that I-90 corridor probably has sustainable commuter flights to larger airports (Buffalo, Albany, JFK, LaGuardia).

Amtrak service along that corridor is good as well.

I also am from CNY. None of the cities in the I90 corridor are EAS. SYR and ROC have mainline service from a couple of airlines and commuter service from nearly every one else to multiple cities. Rome and Utica are a short drive from SYR.

Most of the current EAS cities make sense to me with one exception. Massena and Ogdensburg are both getting funding. To me it seems one or the other, not both. The rest are fairly remote with the exception of Plattsburg in the summer when it is a short ferry ride to BTV.
 
teneriffe77
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:44 am

Right now ART is receiving 2x USEX CRJ service to PHL, Plattsburgh gets 3x Pen Air SF-340 to BOS, Saranac Lake has 3x Cape Air service to Boston while Massena and Ogdensburg each get 3x Cape Air service to ALB. Rome and Utica haven't had service in a long time.
 
ODwyerPW
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:24 am

I could see people arguing that Massena gets the top half along the St Lawrence Seaway and Ogdensburg gets the west half.
some of the communities are isolated up there.... you've got the northern Adirondack Mountains to the South and then ALL that water between the Mountains and the Seaway...
There are just so many rivers, creeks, ponds, marshes, etc.. Really dices up the area.

Looking at a map can be deceptive..... It takes forever to get anywhere from Saranac Lake... not a straight road to be had.
learning never stops.
 
oosnowrat
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:26 am

Quoting panova98 (Reply 21):
Of course, our highway system is nice--nicely subsidized, too--but driving is not an adequate substiute for air transportation. In this country, getting to and from airports, by auto is and is becoming such a mess. To me, a radical, I guess, air transpotation, to and from one's local community, makes sense. This is a national problem that needs a national solution. Why can't we all pay for the good of all?

Subsidizing infrastructure isn't the same as subsidizing private operators to use the infrastructure (and I'm sure most of the EAS airports have received plenty of infrastructure subsidies). Highway "subsidies" come from a dedicated fuel tax paid by the users of the roads, which makes sense in theory even if the practice of running all the $ through DC's bureaucracy is grossly inefficient.

This isn't a national problem. If air service to these cities was important to this nation of over 300 million souls, the demand would be there already and EAS wouldn't exist. This is, at best, a state issue. And many EAS cities are in states that can afford to subsidize their airports if they so choose.
 
panova98
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Lancaster is located directly on one of the only high-speed rail lines in the US, and is within easy driving distance of Philadelphia, New York, and Washington DC; it has no need for subsidized air service when the train is faster.

KPWMSpotter, A terrifc trip report on your Sun Air Piper Navajo flight from Dulles to Lancaster, Pa., which is "LNS." Thank you.

Incidently, the local Lancaster area Amish don't fly, but they are wonderful users of the train service.

I've taken many, many EAS flights to Lancaster--first when Cape Air and its C402s ran them from BWI to Lancaster. 73 times, by my count, almost all day-trips, before Cape Air decided to pull out. They were paid $465 a departure (the proposal says)--each way--and they got to keep all the fare money, which was around $40-$50 a pax. Wonderful, efficicient, friendly, reliable service. As I was always going the opposite direction the Lancaster-timed flights were, I was almost always the only pax, at least up to Lancaster. The plane from Lancaster was almost always full (9-pax), regularly one PAX sitting in the First Offier's seat. BWI was great, too, what with a shorter runway that they shared with the private jets. Great flight in over Key Bridge, Fort McHenry off to the right.

Of course, for me, living a few miles from Dulles, the 59- mile each way morning and afternoon rush hour drives were killers, but it beat driving the 135-mile each way all the way to Lancaster drive. Can't believe how many wrecks there are on that drive. And, the Maryland speed-cameras are a treat!

So, Cape Air decided to pull out, at least in part because the Hagerstown flight was such a loser--surprise, surprise. DOT looked for a replacement carrier, re-bidding, and they really couldn't find anyone until Sun Air apparently found the authority, a plane, and a pilot. DOT agreed to pay them $819 a departure--almost double what they had paid Cape Air.

The service proved a disaster, from a reliability standpoint and the winter weather was a mes. Lancaster couldn't even get 10 Pax, total, for an average day. And, with 5 fligths a day, each way, how could this thing survive? (Apparently, DOT says with a 9-pax plane, you have to run 5 flights a weekday, each way. This doesn't make much sense. Three, would be just fine). So, the other day, DOT says, final order, to Lancaster and a bunch of other communties, you're disqualied from eligibility for a subsidy, effeictive Sept. 30, 2014, unless DOT agrees to give out some waivers, which seems unlikely.

I flew on Sun Air 6 times. Not too bad, not Cape Air-quality, but the schedule reliability seems to have greatly improved. But, with the DOT order, the end is nigh. And, given the cost, who can argue?

The incentive for Sun Air seems to be nil to do much improvement. They get their departure fee and anything else, such as the pax fares don't really add up to much of anything to care about.

Just for the record, on Wednesday, I checked the round-trip fare (roughly 120 miles flying each way, and in this area with all the "prohibited areas," you wind up flying a little farther) for Friday, the 27th, Sun Air IAD-LNS-IAD day-trip, lv IAD 8:05am, lv return LNS 7:00 prm. $115.50 total. Comparatively, UA to Harrisburg, same days, roughly the same times, wants $778.00 round-trip, 94 miles, each way. It wants $696.00 to Philly round-trip, 134 miles each way. Same fares all the way through July. Of course UA uses RJ145s, but the flight times for a Lancaster, or a Harrisburg, or a Phlly round-trip are all just about the same.

As for me ever driving between Lancaster and Harrisburg, or Lancaster and Philly--no chance, ever. Rail, no. Do you think any visitor to Lancaster would consider taking a flight to Philly and then rail service? I don't think so. From Lancaster, the rail service is not really geared for the airport-destination pax.

So, Lancaster, good luck.

You could write a story like this for every other EAS community. Rest assured, no small community will be spared. Somehow, DOT. thourgh mileage criterian, subsidy cap, or average passenger loads per day, will get every EAS small community disqualified for subsidy eligibility. Probably sooner rather than later. DOT is only following what Congress has legislated.

So, good luck all of small community America. We in northern Virginia will be glad to take the program money and use it to extend the Metro Silver Line to Dulles, maybe to open by 2018. You Lancaster people can just stay home and eat cake...er, showfly pie. It was an interesting run!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8076
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 21):
I'd be happy to pay a couple of bucks extra on every airline ticket I buy to see that every American small community has an opportunity to have air service to and from the National Airspace System.

There were national programs for rural electrification and phone lines that originated in the 1930s - and universal service fees continue for phone service today. Are you really suggesting national taxes on all consumers of air travel to support service where - by market standards - there is clear lack of demand to cover costs? Try selling that idea to Tea Partiers...
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:18 pm

I think one issue that will be interesting to watch in coming years is what happens as airlines retire regional jets and aircraft like the Dash 8-100. Will cities like FLO and LYH ask to be added to the EAS list in order to retain service? Obviously, it will be a while before we see 50-seat regional jets completely disappear, but I wonder if we'll see another reworking of the EAS program.
 
dbo861
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
Can anyone image EAS paying to fly a E170 or CRJ700-900 to DBQ, ALO, or JLN?

Is DBQ an EAS city? DBQ has consistently supported 3-4x ERJ service to ORD on American Eagle. I could see that go to 2-3x CRJ-700 or E170.
 
planemaker
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:16 pm

EAS is arbitrary and I can see it going the way of the Dodo. The program today is very different than the program when it was first established.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 779
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RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:57 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 37):
EAS is arbitrary and I can see it going the way of the Dodo. The program today is very different than the program when it was first established.

Agreed.

I know Michael Boyd is a controversial figure to A.netters, but he makes an excellent point writing that "EAS may provide service, but seldom provides connectivity."

We are down to just 4 major airlines in the US, of which one, WN, mostly shuns interlining. That breaks it down to feeding the 3 remaining majors - Delta, American & United, who have already identified their regional feed markets and use lift contracts with already-established regional airlines to serve them. They even specify and/or provide the equipment they want flown on their behalf. That means interlining with EAS providers using single-pilot, single-engine planes like the C208 or PC-12 will not make the cut due to negative passenger perception and possible liability issues.

And before I get flamed: Yes, Great Lakes does interline B1900 EAS service to small cities in Kansas via DEN, but I'm betting that lift contract's days are numbered.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3864
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
I think some can but not all. For example (and Ill use AA at DFW as an example), markets like DFW-DSM/CID/BJX/CVG/LEX could be flown with larger RJ's or a 319. Markets like GCK and MHK probably wont get upgraded though.

AA already has a mix of mainline and RJ's on DFW-DSM.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 36):
Is DBQ an EAS city? DBQ has consistently supported 3-4x ERJ service to ORD on American Eagle.

It is not EAS.

FOD (Fort Dodge, Iowa) which is slated to be cut from EAS, just selected Air Choice One to STL. MCW (Mason City) will be selecting either Air Choice One or Great Lakes on Monday.

Source: http://globegazette.com/news/local/f...b-e062-579a-bbf2-e22eac509a3a.html
 
panova98
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:54 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:54 pm

Certainly, some very good points and questions.

Just for the record, from DOT stats.

At Nov. 1, 2013, there were 117 communities being subsidized under the EAS program (excludes Alaska but includes 2 routes in Hawaii and 1 in Puerto Rico). Total annual amount of subsidy was: $219,879, 243.

As I alluded to earlier, if there were 645.6 domestic passengers in the US in 2013 (not sure whether that includes Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico), and there was a add-on to each ticket for the EAS program, that would have come to 34 cents a passenger. Certainly, not what most people seem to want to pay for any susidy, to anyone, anywhere, anytime and Congress is of that opinion, too.

For the total EAS program, by route, the subsidy amounts could be categorized, on an annual basis (11-1-13 base point) as:

up to $499,999--2 routes
$500,000-$999,999--5 routes
$1mil-$1.999mil--73 routes
$2mil-$2.999mil--30 routes
$3mil-$3.999mil-7 routes.

By carrier:

Great Lakes--32 routes
Silver Airways--23 routes
SkyWest--17 routes
Cape Air--15 routes
down to--
American Eagle--5 routes
Delta--4 routes
American--1 route.

By aircraft seat-sizes:

19-seaters--42 routes, mostly B-1900s
9-seaters--32 routes, mostly C402s, Chieftans, Caravans, Navajos
50-seaters-20 routes, CRJ-200s, ERJs
34-seaters-15 routes, Saab 340s
30-seaters-4 routes, mostly Brasilas
44-seaters-4 routes, ERJs

Whatever!
 
ScottB
Posts: 6994
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 40):
As I alluded to earlier, if there were 645.6 domestic passengers in the US in 2013 (not sure whether that includes Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico), and there was a add-on to each ticket for the EAS program, that would have come to 34 cents a passenger.

IMO the key distinction here (and one I have made before) is that there is a difference between "Essential" Air Service and just "Convenient" Air Service. HOT gets a subsidy of nearly $300 per passenger and is less than an hour by road from LIT. MCN is only a bit over an hour from the world's busiest airport as measured by passengers and the subsidy is over $750 per passenger!

It's one thing to talk about cities which really are hundreds of miles away from any scheduled service -- like in Montana or the Dakotas -- but subsidized EAS service really isn't appropriate when the alternative is a drive of a couple of hours. The distances need to be updated to reflect the fact that most rural speed limits are now 70-75 mph and many rural trunk roads which had only two lanes forty years ago have been upgraded to four-lane divided facilities.
 
KPWMSpotter
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:01 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 33):
KPWMSpotter, A terrifc trip report on your Sun Air Piper Navajo flight from Dulles to Lancaster, Pa., which is "LNS."

Glad you liked it! I kept getting the Lancaster airport codes confused since Amtrak uses the "LNC" code.

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 38):
I know Michael Boyd is a controversial figure to A.netters, but he makes an excellent point writing that "EAS may provide service, but seldom provides connectivity."

I wouldn't go so far as "seldom", but I agree, carriers like Air Choice One or Sun Air set themselves up to fail by not offering reliable interline connectivity. When I visited AHN, even the taxi drivers were not aware that the airport had commercial air service available. When the residents aren't aware of the air service, it's highly unlikely that they'll go out of their way to build multi-trip tickets and connect to the mainline carriers.

When community awareness is high, service will survive. Look at the Great Lakes routes in the Dakotas, Kansas, and the mountain states. Sure, they offer limited interlining with United and Frontier, but the small communities also are aware of the service and rely on it for transportation.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
IMO the key distinction here (and one I have made before) is that there is a difference between "Essential" Air Service and just "Convenient" Air Service. HOT gets a subsidy of nearly $300 per passenger and is less than an hour by road from LIT. MCN is only a bit over an hour from the world's busiest airport as measured by passengers and the subsidy is over $750 per passenger!

I agree 100%. EAS cannot be eliminated altogether. The gaps between the legacy carrier destinations in Montana, Idaho, Kansas, and lots of other sparsely populated states are immense. Often there are geographical barriers and limited roadway connectivity between communities. These areas rely on air service for connectivity; the alternative is often a 4 to 8 hour drive.

I entirely agree that EAS is not a "convenience" service. Macon is a great example; it's usually faster to drive up I-75 then it is to catch a Cessna or Saab flight. That EAS route (and many like it) are simply wasteful spending.
I reject your reality and substitute my own...
 
crj900lr
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:23 am

The problem with LNS is Bob Casey for some reason keeps pushing for this airport to retain the EAS service. Apparently there is a member of the board in LNS who has political ties to Casey and this is the reason why Casey keeps pushing for it to stay. Its amazing that Mr.Casey didnt see the waste of tax payers money when Air Midwest was there for 3 years with service to PIT. And once again he must have missed Cape Air closing up shop only to have Sun Air come in and basically provide below average service at the cost of the tax payers who voted for him. Mr. Casey should look around and see that there is no real benifit to LNS having service anymore. MDT, BWI, & PHL are right down the road from LNS and offer better options. Maybe 20 years ago air service was needed in LNS but it is no longer needed for todays needs with the other options available. There is also a rumor floating around that LNS will be losing charter service provided by Southwest to MCO at the end of the year due to issues with the airport in LNS.
 
panova98
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:54 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
IMO the key distinction here (and one I have made before) is that there is a difference between "Essential" Air Service and just "Convenient" Air Service. HOT gets a subsidy of nearly $300 per passenger and is less than an hour by road from LIT. MCN is only a bit over an hour from the world's busiest airport as measured by passengers and the subsidy is over $750 per passenger!

I think I pretty much get your concern with essentiallity vs. convenience. What comes across too often, I fear, is that there is this belief that small community travel is not essential, because if it were, there would be a lot more of it, and an airline could make big bucks providing the service. And besides, why don't these small community people just drive, or better yet, move?

First of all, I've found people on these flights doing some pretty important stuff--some coming FROM the small community and many going TO the community. I was going TO, care-giving and all, And, I've seen doctors, professors, professional people of all types, preachers, pastors, priests, all doing imprtant things for and within the local communities.

Second--drive? Not everyone drives; not everyone should be driving--old age, inexperience, you name it. Even if your are a pretty good driver, it isn't always that easy. Driving from Lancaster to Philadelphia is the pits. Not fast, not easy, whatever. Yes, if you've been to Kingman, Arizona, there is almost no speed limit to Las Vegas. But, boy is that a hot, awful trek.

Third--move. Why are you living in these small communities? Oh, please?

Fourth--look, if the service can't make money, forget about it. Meaning--for most of these routes, the party's over because they're never, ever going to be money-making. If that's the bottom line, and I suspect that it is for many, many...well what else can anyone say?

I fully agree the subsidy amounts are often excessive. Number of daily flights, where they go to/from, types and sizes of aircraft need looking at. As to eligibility: what does what the world looked like at the time of deregulation play a key role as to who is and who isn't eligible for a subsidy?. The world's changed. And, as far as advertising and promotion by most of these EAS carrirers? I fear they don't know how and frankly don't care. And the local airport authorities? Yeh, they really ought to be advertising in the Washington Post! Not going to happen.

But, I just hope people could look at the program with an open mind and see if something good might come out of the exposure the program is or may be getting. No, I don't work for any airline, any community, chamber of commerce, tourist bureau, DOT, whatever.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 38):

You don't need interline connectivity to make EAS work. It may help. While Cape Air interlines with American at STL, I would bet many Cape Air passengers simply buy two tickets. One on Cape Air and one on WN.

My earlier point about 50 seat retirements is there are lots of cities that get 50 seat jet service today that might not be able to support 70-90 seat jets. Will those cities end up on EAS? When you reduce frequency from 3 50 seaters to 2 70 seaters, people will then start driving to an alternate airport, thus making the 70seaters unprofitable even though total capacity is the same or lower.
 
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usxguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:11 am

Well Mokulele only interlines with Alaska, Air New Zealand, and Qantas. I'm not sure the latter have any presence in Maui, but I'd suspect that most of Waimea's traffic probably aren't connecting to Alaska. And to go from 50 to 12,000 in a year just shows there's more to the mix than just airplane type.
xx
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24624
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 45):
Will those cities end up on EAS?

EAS program is closed.
No new communities can enter the program, nor return should they lose their unsubsidized service.

EAS was originally based on 400 odd cities that received service in October 1978, which has been reduced down to about 125 today.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
teneriffe77
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:00 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:16 am

As someone who doesn't even have a drivers license due to a disability, driving is not an option for me or others in similar circumstances so unless there's some kind of bus service like greyhound or rail service like amtrak getting to and from many small cities can be really difficult if not impossible without air service. I'm not saying all places should have it I just think that people like me should be considered when things like EAS are discussed.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3139
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

RE: DOT To Axe 13 EAS Markets, 1 Airline Adding Flts!

Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting teneriffe77 (Reply 48):
As someone who doesn't even have a drivers license due to a disability, driving is not an option for me or others in similar circumstances so unless there's some kind of bus service like greyhound or rail service like amtrak getting to and from many small cities can be really difficult if not impossible without air service. I'm not saying all places should have it I just think that people like me should be considered when things like EAS are discussed.

I agree with you. MCN and Athens, ga do have a couple of shared van shuttle services to ATL. Those two really should have been dropped from EAS a long time ago.

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