UA Discontinuing STR

jetskipper · Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:16 pm

Citing underperforming profits UA will discontinue EWR-STR effective September 20th.

planeguy727 · Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:49 pm

Is "underperforming profits" code for 757 retirements and we can't make money using a larger aircraft?

United1 · Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 1):

Is "underperforming profits" code for 757 retirements and we can't make money using a larger aircraft?

None of the 757s that fly transatlantic routes are being retired.

Rdh3e · Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 1):
Is "underperforming profits" code for 757 retirements and we can't make money using a larger aircraft?

UA isn't retiring the international 757s so no it's not.

LAXintl · Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:59 pm

First none of the CO 757s are being retired so its not equipment related.

Ultimately after 3-years of trying, the route continued to under perform and its being cut.
Also remember this needs to be viewed as part of the larger trans-Atlantic JV and what is happening with LH in secondary German markets.

LOWS · Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:00 pm

Well, LH flies FRA-STR, or you can get an ICE Train direct from FRA and be in Stuttgart in 1:15 (with at least three trains hourly). And with Stuttgart 21, there will be a station at STR, and connections to points south (Tübingen, Konstanz, etc.).

Can hardly blame UA for cutting the route. And I'm one to blame UA for just about all that is wrong with the world.

lhcvg · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 5):

Granted it's not an air codeshare, but still with the ICE LH codeshare they can still ticket you through so you can stay "in-alliance". Seems like a case where you let DL have it -- there probably is a (small) US-STR n/s market, but not enough for multiple players. Without LH as their partner, DL has a greater incentive and marketing edge to make that work anyway (pulling in pax who need to get to STR but aren't LH/Star loyalists).

jfklganyc · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:49 am

Longtime CO market. Wish the CO/EWR Club would weigh in on this to hear some of their thoughts.

Again, EWR was COs earth moon and stars. Not so for UA. If they dont like route performance, they will ax it.

captainstefan · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting jetskipper (Thread starter):
Citing underperforming profits UA will discontinue EWR-STR effective September 20th.

Can't fly it with a 50-seater, so it's gotta go....

United1 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Longtime CO market. Wish the CO/EWR Club would weigh in on this to hear some of their thoughts.

EWR-STR was started after the merger....

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1538123&highlight=

Polot · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Longtime CO market. Wish the CO/EWR Club would weigh in on this to hear some of their thoughts.

STR is not a long time CO market. The current flights only started June 2011, well after the merger process with UA had started. Although they may have flown to STR some in the late 90s/early 2000s, I can't remember.

klwright69 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:20 am

You are right. This isn't a long time CO market. I think he maybe confused. Over the years, CO tried a few secondary German destinations. They were going to DUS a very, very long time ago, once a week on the DC10 if I remember correctly. They also tried CGN with the 757. In the 90's they tried MUC from EWR, but it failed. Obviously it made a glorious return. With the exception of MUC, the 757 markets that really worked for CO were HAM and TXL. Of course TXL has (is) upgraded time to time.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Again, EWR was COs earth moon and stars. Not so for UA.

Well said. But it still is, but there are more baskets for more eggs. So only sort of now.

SurfandSnow · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:41 am

DL continues to offer an ATL-STR 767 service with no German partner, and UA can't even manage EWR-STR on a 757?!? Unbelievable. I would have thought UA's EWR-STR would serve Mercedes-Benz much like DL's ATL-STR serves Porsche, let alone the general O&D between one of Germany's largest and wealthiest cities and New York City. Moreover, ATL - once again the sole transatlantic destination available nonstop from STR - is so far south that it is not nearly as practical a connection point as EWR for pax headed to, say, BOS or DTW. Of course, connecting in Europe is always an option, and seems to be preferred by most travelers anyway. I guess I have to give UA/CO credit for trying Germany's 7 largest markets (FRA, MUC, DUS, TXL, HAM, STR, and CGN), perhaps it really isn't all that surprising that the two smallest markets on that list didn't pan out. I do wonder if a UA 757 might make more sense than a LH widebody on the EWR-DUS route, perhaps that's what they'll do with this 757 capacity?

PanHAM · Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:09 am

Let's see how that DL flight performs after the US Military finally moved all personell to Wiesbaden. May be the automotive Clusters around STR and the US south will save that flight.

Besides that, as LOWS mentioned already, the ICE Train takes 71 minutes to FRA Airport Station and once the STR21 Project is completed there will be direct Trains STR Airport to FRA Airport but no more flights on that route.

Deutsche Bahn AG interlines with Airlines as well, BTW, not only LH but whoever signs an Agreement. .

MAH4546 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:19 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
I would have thought UA's EWR-STR would serve Mercedes-Benz much like DL's ATL-STR serves Porsche, let alone the general O&D between one of Germany's largest and wealthiest cities and New York City.

There is probably more traffic travelling on the ATL-STR route with Mercedes-Benz to it's massive Montgomery plant operations than there is Porsche serving it's small North American headquarters. Not surprisingly, Stuttgart is the single largest international O&D market from Birmingham, Alabama after Toronto.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
Moreover, ATL - once again the sole transatlantic destination available nonstop from STR - is so far south that it is not nearly as practical a connection point as EWR for pax headed to, say, BOS or DTW.

But ATL is fine for five of Stuttgart's largest trans-Atlantic local markets - Atlanta itself, Birmingham, Los Angeles, Miami and San Francisco.

Detroit at one point was Stuttgart's largest U.S. local market - larger than New York - but that traffic has absolutely collapsed after the DaimlerChrysler break-up.

xjet · Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:31 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 14):
There is probably more traffic travelling on the ATL-STR route with Mercedes-Benz to it's massive Montgomery plant operations than there is Porsche serving it's small North American headquarters. Not surprisingly, Stuttgart is the single largest international O&D market from Birmingham, Alabama after Toronto.

This is just a semantic point — Mercedes is in Tuscaloosa. And it is indeed massive. I think they are up to 3 types in production. The plant itself it only about 45 miles from the BHM airport. Hyundai is Montgomery.

Skyeurope · Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:34 am

Well this flight always had very high loads (around 90% and more) in summer and usually quite steep prices.
The problem appearently was last winter, when loads suddenly dropped well below 50% on some flights, so they of course couldn't gain enough revenue.

Although, I really don't understand why they cut this route completely. Why don't they at least make it summer seasonal? I'm sure there are United flights that are way more underperforming than STR does right now.

fun2fly · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:11 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 15):
This is just a semantic point — Mercedes is in Tuscaloosa. And it is indeed massive. I think they are up to 3 types in production. The plant itself it only about 45 miles from the BHM airport. Hyundai is Montgomery.

Hop on the Thursday afternoon flight from BHM to ATL and you'll swear you are in Germany. It's loaded with German nationals from MBenz.

I do find it odd that UA or LH can't make STR work (even CGN). You figure you could get $100 premium or so per RT as you'd eliminate the ICE train as suggested and that would help yields. Shows what we all know.

STT757 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:13 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Longtime CO market

Quoting United1 (Reply 9):

EWR-STR was started after the merger....

Long time CO route?.. It was launched in June 2011, it's only three years old and CO had already merged with UA at that point.

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1538123&highlight=

[Edited 2014-07-03 04:16:37]

jetblue1965 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting Skyeurope (Reply 16):

I think summer (or winter) seasonal only works for more leisure destinations.

AmricanShamrok · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:25 am

My prediction for a replacement route for this aircraft: IAD-BCN (summer seasonal).

[Edited 2014-07-03 04:49:33]

homer787 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:36 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):

DL continues to offer an ATL-STR 767 service with no German partner, and UA can't even manage EWR-STR on a 757?!? Unbelievable. I would have thought UA's EWR-STR would serve Mercedes-Benz much like DL's ATL-STR serves Porsche, let alone the general O&D between one of Germany's largest and wealthiest cities and New York City. Moreover, ATL - once again the sole transatlantic destination available nonstop from STR - is so far south that it is not nearly as practical a connection point as EWR for pax headed to, say, BOS or DTW. Of course, connecting in Europe is always an option, and seems to be preferred by most travelers anyway. I guess I have to give UA/CO credit for trying Germany's 7 largest markets (FRA, MUC, DUS, TXL, HAM, STR, and CGN), perhaps it really isn't all that surprising that the two smallest markets on that list didn't pan out. I do wonder if a UA 757 might make more sense than a LH widebody on the EWR-DUS route, perhaps that's what they'll do with this 757 capacity?

VW, BMW, and Porsche have SUV assembly lines in the southern US. VW and Porsche are HQ'd in STR. ATL is situated better for connections to Tennessee and Alabama than EWR.

r2rho · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:54 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
DL continues to offer an ATL-STR 767 service with no German partner, and UA can't even manage EWR-STR on a 757?!? Unbelievable.

IMO, if you can't make STR-EWR work with a 752 you're either doing sth very wrong or there are other reasons behind this. Which would be that UA wants the a/c elsewhere and LH is more than happy to take those pax and route them through FRA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
remember this needs to be viewed as part of the larger trans-Atlantic JV and what is happening with LH in secondary German markets.

Exactly. This decision has surely not been taken independently of LH, but rather in common agreement.

Quoting Skyeurope (Reply 16):
Although, I really don't understand why they cut this route completely. Why don't they at least make it summer seasonal?

Indeed I can understand the route having some difficulties in winter but summer should be a no-brainer.

PanHAM · Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:56 am

minor correction:

VW is HQ in Wolfsburg, Nether Saxony, Porsche is a subsidiary of VW HQ in STR. The VW plant is in Chattanooga. The automobile Clusters in Germany cover the Country, from the North around Wolfsburg via the DUS/CGN and FRA metroplexes via STR to MUC. There are hundreds of firms in each of those centres that are connected to automotive.
All require heavy travelling and lots of air cargo.

uberflieger · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 17):
I do find it odd that UA or LH can't make STR work

I don't believe it is a question of not being able to make it work. I have a feeling the route did just fine. The problem is the Frankfurt hub, where LH & UA need to fill widebodies. Most STR pax will stay with *A and take the train or fly LH to FRA. It eliminates the cost of operating a nonstop, reduces capacity with little competitive disadvantages, helps strengthen Lufti's FRA domestic & TATL network.

MIflyer12 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
The automobile Clusters in Germany cover the Country, from the North around Wolfsburg via the DUS/CGN and FRA metroplexes via STR to MUC. There are hundreds of firms in each of those centres that are connected to automotive.

That is why, in addition to DL's ATL-STR 767 year-round, DL also operates ATL-DUS, ATL-FRA, and ATL-MUC. There is a huge value of German auto/truck investment in the Southeast U.S.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
That is why, in addition to DL's ATL-STR 767 year-round, DL also operates ATL-DUS, ATL-FRA, and ATL-MUC. There is a huge value of German auto/truck investment in the Southeast U.S.

The flip side of the coin is that LH operates FRA-ATL and MUC-CLT, probably catering to the same investments.

jfklganyc · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 9):

EWR-STR was started after the merger.

I thought it was continuous. It was flown by CO from their EWR hub pre merger. Help with details please.

lhcvg · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 26):

And scuttlebutt around these parts is that this will be key for LH keeping MUC-CLT around after the US/AA tieup and departure from Star. Personally I think that's reasonable, but what will be up in the air is how much J demand there is -- do they still need the 346 or will we see that downgauged?

jetblue1965 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 28):

Summer 346 and winter 333 makes sense, but daily is probably a requirement to retain the BMW contract

Even after loss of feed, I think CLT region retains some star customers in which this flight is their sole nonstop link to Europe.

STT757 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:46 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 27):
It was flown by CO from their EWR hub pre merger

It was launched in June 2011.

usdcaguy · Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:24 pm

It seems to me like this reduction likely has several reasons:

- Consolidation of thinner nonstops into trunk routes that are part of the UA/AC/LH JV
- Undesirability of using narrow-body flights over the Atlantic, particularly in coach
- Undesirability of using domestic connections over NYC to fly across the Atlantic
- Low-season drop-off in flying, particularly in addition to he above two reasons

These problems are not limited to UA. DL and AA also face similar obstacles to their 757 flying out of NYC and have cut back almost all of it. It has become apparent that NYC O&D traffic alone cannot support nonstop flying to every business market in Europe and that NYC is a chronically undesirable connect point, no matter how many times the carriers redecorate their terminals. That said, NYC will always be the top destination in the US, even if not every city can support nonstop service.

PanHAM · Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
a huge value of German auto/truck investment in the Southeast U.S.

That is something developing since over 40 years and it is not restricted to automotive but all fields and kinds of German industries from textile machinery to appliances.

They all love the economic climate in the Carolinas, Georgia Alabama and Mississppi.

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 20):
My prediction for a replacement route for this aircraft: IAD-BCN (summer seasonal).

I'm thinking that we'll just see this aircraft dissolved into the current system and it will probably be seen on more domestic routes now as well, to help cope with the current retirement schedule. I've been seeing more and more international birds on domestic routes lately. For instance, for July 1-3, N14120 is flying BCN-EWR-SFO-IAH-DEN-IAH-EWR-DEN-SFO-IAH. This is just one example.

ScottB · Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:53 pm

Quoting XJET (Reply 15):
This is just a semantic point — Mercedes is in Tuscaloosa.

Er the MB plant is actually in Vance which lies between Birmingham & Tuscaloosa, but a bit closer to the latter.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 17):
Hop on the Thursday afternoon flight from BHM to ATL and you'll swear you are in Germany. It's loaded with German nationals from MBenz.

And it's pretty obvious that UA was getting virtually zero of that MB traffic on the STR-EWR flight considering that BHM isn't even served from EWR.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 28):
And scuttlebutt around these parts is that this will be key for LH keeping MUC-CLT around after the US/AA tieup and departure from Star.

I don't really see any value to UA in handing traffic over to the competition at CLT. And I can't see how STR-MUC-CLT-XXX is a more appealing alternative to STR-EWR-XXX or STR-ATL-XXX. The BMW traffic from MUC probably just drives to Greer since it's a bit over an hour even with the airport practically next door.

VgnAtl747 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:59 pm

Well that made my heart skip a beat. We're flying back STR-EWR on 9/4... phew.

lhcvg · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
I don't really see any value to UA in handing traffic over to the competition at CLT. And I can't see how STR-MUC-CLT-XXX is a more appealing alternative to STR-EWR-XXX or STR-ATL-XXX. The BMW traffic from MUC probably just drives to Greer since it's a bit over an hour even with the airport practically next door.

I think you misread that -- I was referring solely to the LH MUC-CLT service in relation to their corporate contracts, and how the route is probably safe even after US is gone from Star.

fxramper · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:30 pm

This flight is consistently full. I know this doesn't say much. Maybe they will try CGN again or DUS.

RDUDDJI · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:54 pm

The MB, VW, and BMW plants are customers of mine. I've flown ATL-STR a few times. I hope the DL trip is doing well. Long flight from ATL, but still nice to have a nonstop.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 21):
VW, BMW, and Porsche have SUV assembly lines in the southern US. VW and Porsche are HQ'd in STR. ATL is situated better for connections to Tennessee and Alabama than EWR.

Porsche doesn't build anything in the US. The VW CHA site has space for a second plant, and it was rumored before the first plant even opened that they may get a second plant with an Audi line. But it's been 4 years now and that hasn't materialized.

Quoting XJET (Reply 15):
I think they are up to 3 types in production. The plant itself it only about 45 miles from the BHM airport. Hyundai is Montgomery.

2 plants, 4 vehicles in Vance:

R Class (which is going away)
M Class
GLK Class
C Class (just started last month, still ramping up to full production)

Hyundai in MGM, Honda (2 plants) in Lincoln, AL, Toyota in HSV and TUP, Kia in Westpoint, GA, lots of manufacturing going on down South. And of course Airbus now adding to the mix.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
All require heavy travelling and lots of air cargo.

About the cargo, people say that often on A.net, but I suspect it's not really true. A large assembly plant gets the vast majority of it's parts locally. The stuff that comes from overseas is way too large and heavy (read: engines) to travel via airplane. Not to mention that most car plants build hundreds of cars per day.

Cubsrule · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 38):
Hyundai in MGM, Honda (2 plants) in Lincoln, AL, Toyota in HSV and TUP, Kia in Westpoint, GA, lots of manufacturing going on down South. And of course Airbus now adding to the mix.

Yup, plus Nissan in Tennessee and Mississippi and General Motors in BNA (Bowling Green to the north and Spring Hill to the south). There are lots of suppliers too.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
The BMW traffic from MUC probably just drives to Greer since it's a bit over an hour even with the airport practically next door.

Flying to GSP is a waste, but flying back, using GSP may actually be faster since GSP is so compact.

xjet · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Er the MB plant is actually in Vance which lies between Birmingham & Tuscaloosa, but a bit closer to the latter.

Very true. I grew up in TCL. I was thinking about all the annexation battles in 1995. I couldn't remember how all that played out. I think Tuscaloosa ended up successfully annexing some land that was unincorporated where some of the other manufacturers like Brose are located. But it looks as if the main plant is in Vance, Al.

Cubsrule · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 41):
and labor organization rare to nonexistent (workers at the VW plant in CHA will hopefully change that).

To be fair, though, that's largely UAW's fault. They've tried to unionize Nissan/Smyrna for years without success (including a couple of votes that they lost by double digit percentages), and had they not given away the farm in the runup to the Volkswagen election, that result likely would have been different.

UAW's best hope in the south right now is probably Nissan in Canton, but even with a lot of outside money (on both sides) that isn't a slam dunk.

Eirules · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:23 pm

Is this part of a bigger issue for UA transatlantic to secondary markets. They have announced seasonal stoppages of a number of European flights which are already flown using their smallest available aircraft. Have UA finally made tough calls on destinations that have been struggling for a while?

avek00 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:36 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 43):
Have UA finally made tough calls on destinations that have been struggling for a while?

Yes, in ways legacy United or Continental simply could not under their more limited business frameworks.

LAXdude1023 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 27):

You're probably confusing it with EWR-CGN.

ECFlyer · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:18 pm

Well, I tried to purchase four Y tickets on EWR-STR return this past winter and the prices were out of sight. The cabin was fairly empty for the flights I tried. So UA had to be holding the line on discounting to fill the rear of the plane.

Still ended up flying on UA, but EWR-MXP which was about $700 per ticket less expensive R/T. $2,800 saved for a ski trip was worth starting south of the Alps vs. north. And a 764 instead of single-aisle.

SCQ83 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 37):
This flight is consistently full. I know this doesn't say much. Maybe they will try CGN again or DUS.

I don't see the benefit of trying again CGN. Cologne Central Station is barely 30-40 minutes (depending on the local service) to Dusseldorf Airport station and 1 hour to Frankfurt Airport (high-speed train). On the other hand, DUS Airport also has much easier access (by road or train) to the rest of NRW, Belgium and the Netherlands.

That is the reason why CGN has evolved into a low-cost, holiday airport "stucked" between DUS and FRA.

ECFlyer · Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:53 pm

I work at a private New England college and live up here. Politicians in my state increasingly forget that the U.S. is the original free trade zone. They pass increasingly noncompetitive policies and act stunned when yet another firm leaves--not for the Far East--but for the Southeast. This has been going on since the 1930s.

Like it or not, southern states give vehicle assemblers things the northeast will not offer--flexible & reasonable cost labor, inexpensive electricity and fuel, low taxes, a more benign climate, business-friendly gov't, and on and on. Old cultural rigidities have softened and financing is readily available in ways that were once an advantage in the north.

The kind of schools I have worked for would largely not be built in New England in 2014. They are an echo of an earlier phase in American industry, when the money that founded them was earned in the northeast too. One school I used to work for got most of its early funding from a 19th century shoe manufacturer--quaint. They were the 10th largest employer in their town in 1990. Now they are the 1st--everyone else is out of business.

The German DO have high wages. But they also have the most incredible artisan workforce on the planet. Heck, they're Germans--one guy wakes up dreaming of engineering and his brother wakes up dreaming of how to build the machine tools to make it all work. The Chinese buy a lot of stuff from Siemens, etc.

As the pie grows at a much slower pace in the U.S., some regions will be net losers. No question that most of what is north and east of St. Louis to NYC is going to have a tough time (with a few pockets of prosperity).

gdg9 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:49 pm

Do we have a source (press release, news article etc) confirming this?

PanHAM · Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:42 am

A friend of mine is a retired Manager of a cargo firm I used to work for in the 70s as well and one of his customers was BMW in GSP. I could not tell you how much they fly in every week as this is Company Domain, but they still manage to fly a full 748F LUX-HSV.
Freightthat is assembled on fridays arrive GSP by truck from HSV Monday morning on time customs cleared.

[Edited 2014-07-03 22:44:18]

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