S75752
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 145):
Yes, it's also unprecedented for any year to have 2 777 crashes, let alone two at the same carrier.

Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:02 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 150):

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 145):
Yes, it's also unprecedented for any year to have 2 777 crashes, let alone two at the same carrier.

Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?

12 and 14 June 1950
Two Air France Douglas DC-4s (F-BBDF and F-BBDM, respectively) crashed into the sea off Bahrain while landing, with a combined loss of 86 lives. The first accident claimed the lives of 40 of the 53 occupants and the second 46 out of 52. Both aircraft had operated the Karachi, Pakistan, to Bahrain portion of Air France's Saigon, Indochina - Paris sector.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 150):
Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?

Maybe US Air back in the 1990s? They lost quite a few 737s, but it was over a period of a few years.

MH 777s are really making the fatality numbers linked to 777s go up - through possibly no fault of the 777 like the Asiana incident...

Out of all the planes this could have happened to being MH and a 777 again shows who has the bad luck  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 149):
How do you think it will affect it?

I hate to say this, but some people n the Malaysian govt might actually feel a sense of relief as this newest crisis could actually divert attention from the MH170 search and investigation. If there is indeed misinformation going on, it could shift the spotlight of public attention/opinion elsewhere. As to the search itself, I don't really know since so many other parties are involved. And if MH was close to bankruptcy before, does this 2nd loss push them over the edge?

I think I'm still trying to digest all of this. So many innocent lives lost.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
CabSauv
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:54 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 153):

  not enough coffee today ? Second time you said MH170 ....

I do however agree with you.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 154):
Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 153):

not enough coffee today ? Second time you said MH170 ....

What is MH170?

MH370 and MH17 so I could understand the error  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
S75752
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 155):
What is MH170?

I had to look it up, but apparently MH170 is a flight to KTM (Nepal's intl airport). Interesting. But don't want to get it confused with other ones.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 150):

Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?

Pan Am had 5 fatal 707 crashes in 9 months in 1973/74 (one a terrorist attack on the ground at FCO) with a total of 315 fatalities. They wrote off a total of 12 707s in 11 years (1963-74).

Air France had 2 fatal 707 crashes 19 days apart in 1962 with 243 fatalities.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19620603-0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19620622-0

[Edited 2014-07-17 20:26:54]
 
User avatar
EK413
Topic Author
Posts: 5327
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:10 am

Our thoughts and prayers to the families with loved ones onboard MH370 & MH17  

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:29 am

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 154):
MH370 and MH17 so I could understand the error
Quoting CabSauv (Reply 154):
not enough coffee today

More coffee is called for! As to MH170 - oops, my error.   
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
User avatar
Istanbuler83
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:30 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:48 pm

Hmmm back to the MH370- interview with Hishammuddin. What did he say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQPCwY5SHk from 8:30 to 9:30

H: Are u trying to say that, we would shoot it down?
C:Well you said that, not me.
H: No, I am asking you. So, if we don't wanna to shoot it down. What is the point of sending them up?
..........
C: Why shooting it down, when it is not hostile.
H: Well, the Americans would do.

I am just saying, coincedences, coincedences and coincedences, if you wanna believe so.
Istanbuler83
 
747megatop
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 153):
could actually divert attention from the MH170 search and investigation.

We didn't need a new crisis for shifting spotlight away from MH 370. Public memory is short lived. MH 370 was already off the front page news and most of the general public other than us a.netters had all but forgotten MH 370. In fact this latest crisis has brought attention to MH 17 AND MH 370 incidents in particular; and MH in general. A neighbor mentioned to me "I think MH 370 and MH 17 are connected in some way, said it can't be a coincidence". I literally rolled my eyes. Another person i met says "it is best to avoid MH; MH is jinxed".
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 160):
C: Why shooting it down, when it is not hostile.
H: Well, the Americans would do.

That childish response from H certainly did more to credit to the wilder MH370 theories such as it being shot down or taken than to dismiss them. I wonder what he was thinking before he said that, but the grin on his face after the answer was priceless. I'm starting to think he requested that question to be asked before agreeing to the interview so he could add his 2 cents as an answer...

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 161):
We didn't need a new crisis for shifting spotlight away from MH 370. Public memory is short lived.

I will agree with that. MH370 - the biggest aviation mystery of our time - is still unsolved and looks far from being solved. A 777 is still missing. Whilst MH17 is a great tragedy - the wreckage is there and there is already a cause - it was shot down. MH370 is still missing...

FWIW - somebody asked me at work if 9M-MRD could have been 9M-MRO and if so 9M-MRO will never be found (it wouldn't be hard to change the 'O' in the rego to a 'D'). Or, they also proposed that just some wreckage from the downed 777 in the Ukraine could be placed somewhere where MH370 is to be found. It was food for thought, but I doubt MH17 was 9M-MRO because then what would they do with 9M-MRD? But... I would not put it past some higher ups of placing MH 777 wreckage from MH17 somewhere just to say MH370 has been found and leave it at that. Two MH 777 incidents in such a short time - one still missing and one is an area that will be off limits long enough to be tampered with - does make me wonder. BTW it was nice of MH to release the MH17 cargo manifest so quickly...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 162):
It was food for thought, but I doubt MH17 was 9M-MRO because then what would they do with 9M-MRD?

Anyone from the public would easily add one+one and say that 9M-MRD has become the one parked up in Israel.
Which was the original rego on the 777 that was kept in that country; and is it still there?
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 163):
Anyone from the public would easily add one+one and say that 9M-MRD has become the one parked up in Israel.
Which was the original rego on the 777 that was kept in that country; and is it still there?

Are the below links what you are referring to? I never knew about that... Thanks for bringing it up!  http://www.dailypaul.com/315435/why-...ssing-one-being-stored-in-tel-aviv

http://www.bollyn.com/are-the-israel...nother-9-11-using-the-missing-777/

BTW - MRK is also out of their fleet list apparently being stored in Orlando according to planespotters.net

So, MRD, MRI, MRK and MRO are now all out of the planespotters.net MH fleet list...

Also, a pic of the MH17 wreckage (wreckage only) clearly showing the last three letters of the tail number all nicely there...

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...-DT302_0718mh_H_20140718080048.jpg



[Edited 2014-07-19 19:03:24]

[Edited 2014-07-19 19:11:58]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 164):
Are the below links what you are referring to?

Yep, them's the ones ....
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:58 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 150):
Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?

UA lost two 727s in August (UA 389 LGA-ORD) and November 1965 (UA 227 DEN-SLC, part of a LGA-SFO route). Amazingly, AA lost a 727 of its own also in November 1965 (AA 383, LGA-CVG), three days before UA's crash. All three flights originated from LGA.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
User avatar
ZKNCL
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:52 am

While we're at it, I doubt MRK will ever fly again.
http://iconosquare.com/p/695614014227324585_212979966

Also what has MRN been up to recently? Hasn't flown in over 2 months.

ZKNCL
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:09 am

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 167):
While we're at it, I doubt MRK will ever fly again.
http://iconosquare.com/p/695614014227324585_212979966

Also what has MRN been up to recently? Hasn't flown in over 2 months.

ZKNCL

Good question.

I have a funny feeling that the MH fleet will cope just fine without MRO and now MRD   We knew the 777s were on the way out at MH...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:53 pm

I am curious as to what others opinions are about the supposed sighting of MH370 by the 'sailoress'.

Any opinions would be much appreciated. Here is her revised statement or recount or what have you. Thanks.

https://saucysailoress.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/comprehensive-eye-witness-sighting-of-mh370/
 
yankeejuliet
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:16 pm

9M-MRD first flew on July 17 1997 and was destroyed on July 17 2014. What luck?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:28 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 166):
Quoting S75752 (Reply 150):
Have any carriers even had a loss of two aircraft of identical type within such a short period before?


UA lost two 727s in August (UA 389 LGA-ORD) and November 1965 (UA 227 DEN-SLC, part of a LGA-SFO route). Amazingly, AA lost a 727 of its own also in November 1965 (AA 383, LGA-CVG), three days before UA's crash. All three flights originated from LGA.

Air France had 2 707 crashes 19 days apart in 1962 with 243 fatalities (130 on one, 113 on the other). That was after 3 hull losses in 1961 -- 707 (no fatalities, went off runway on takeoff), Caravelle (77 fatalities), L-1649A (78 fatalies). Total 5 hull losses in 13 months with 398 fatalities.
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting yankeejuliet (Reply 170):
9M-MRD first flew on July 17 1997 and was destroyed on July 17 2014. What luck?

Don't forget the 17 years and the flight number MH17. Not being superstitious, it was just mentioned in the threads.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1595
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 169):
am curious as to what others opinions are about the supposed sighting of MH370 by the 'sailoress'.

Any opinions would be much appreciated. Here is her revised statement or recount or what have you. Thanks.

I don't find the sailoress' account credible (in the sense what she saw could have been MH370). It was moonless night when MH370 supposedly flew by her. The only possible light source would have been if the plane was on fire, and if it was on fire it couldn't have flown several hours after that.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:40 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 169):
I am curious as to what others opinions are about the supposed sighting of MH370 by the 'sailoress'.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

The first thought I had is (at the beginning of her story) that it was a UFO sighting, particularly on the strength of that first picture. Orange Balls are apparently one of the most common ways of how UFO's are seen. They reckon that quite a few people have actually seen a UFO but didn't realise what they are looking at.

When I then continued reading that woman's story, it became a different matter altogether.
The truth is, I personally don't know what to make of it.
I could easily imagine that, depending on a person's frame of mind, 'out there' alone, the brain sometimes has the wish to see something and then vividly visualises that; to the point where it might possibly become a reality for that person.
(Where are our Psychologist friends to help us with this?)

So far my proper reply to your question. But there is more ....
Possibilities that go into the realm of, ... how can I put this (?), ... the realm of utter bull as 'down-to-Earth' people like Pihero would put it.

The beginning of that woman's story and the possible UFO angle reminded me of something else I read, as early as March 20. I even sent a URL of this to a.net (as humour, to brighten things up a bit) and, of course, it was completely ignored.

No doubt you have heard of channeling; it's something else that I don't know what to make of.
According to what he was channeled, this bloke reckons that:
And I quote: "All persons aboard the missing airliner were relocated to a small planet that approximates your atmosphere and to some extent the topography, and the inhabitants are fairly similar to your population in appearance. When the plane developed serious malfunctions that couldn’t be remedied, we shifted it into a higher dimension and set course for that planet." End of quote ...
See it all here:
http://galacticchannelings.com/english/matthew20-03-14.html
http://galacticchannelings.com/english/matthew02-04-14.html

That was already on March 20.
The funny thing is, so far there is absolutely nothing which "proves" that bloke is wrong..!

Coming back to our Lady Sailor ...
I tend to be rather skeptic about this.
It probably could be argued that her frame of mind, at the time, wasn't exactly the best to ....
a) properly witness something correctly; and then ...
b) considerable time later make a proper statement about it.
And, what more, later still, change that story again.
Talking for only twenty minutes to the ATSB is probably quite an indidcator as well.
Unless, of course, she was truthfully telling them stuff that they absolutely didn't want to hear.
We'll never know ....

It's a good question you are asking there; this is the best I can come up with.

On that note, too ...
Personally I reckon there could be a lot more to the story from that bloke on the oil rig.
But don't tell Nav30 that ...

[Edited 2014-07-22 04:49:58]

[Edited 2014-07-22 04:52:06]
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting yankeejuliet (Reply 170):

9M-MRD first flew on July 17 1997 and was destroyed on July 17 2014. What luck?

There is no such thing as luck ....
The Illuminati thrive on numbers and their esoteric meaning..!
 
4holer
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:17 pm

Had kinda checked out of these threads.
Checked back in to see if there was anything new.
I see that the conversation is now about UFOs and "The Illuminati".
Sigh.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting 4holer (Reply 176):
Had kinda checked out of these threads.
Checked back in to see if there was anything new.
I see that the conversation is now about UFOs and "The Illuminati".
Sigh.

Perhaps you could add a worthwhile contribution?
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting 4holer (Reply 176):
Checked back in to see if there was anything new.

Nothing new, 4holer - for the simple reason that pretty well nothing is happening........

The search operation is still concentrating only on the extreme southern part of the Indian Ocean - and a new search area even further south, about level with Perth, will be searched next. The new area must first of all be surveyed, which will take quite a few weeks; after that, the search itself may take a year:-

"Mr Truss said an Australian-contracted ship, Fugro Equator, and a Chinese survey ship, Zhu Kezhen, were surveying a 23,000 square-mile area of the Indian Ocean. The underwater search is expected to take up to a year.

“The tenders have closed for the major search operation and the tender will be let fairly soon,’’ Mr Truss said.

“We’ve got some meetings with the Malaysians. It’s possible I suppose that some of those might be delayed because they have so much on their plate — to agree with [them] the next stage of search.’’


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-MH17-disaster-says-Australia.html

So it looks like a case of "all systems stop" for the moment..........
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:43 am

I don't know if anybody can access this data, but is there proof that both MRO and MRD were flying at the time of MH370? Call me a conspiracy theorist but I would give a 2% chance to the MH370 and MH17 flight being the same frame - which frame is anybody's guess. If MH370 was taken somewhere, unloaded, then put back into service (let's say taken to Diego Garcia where the already dead from hypoxia pax were removed as well as the all important cargo - look how quick the MH17 cargo manifest was released compared to MH370 - and then sent via however to be returned into service) I believe this could be possible. I will put money that some of the MH17 wreckage has permanently vanished - until it is to be placed in the sea where some of the MH370 wreckage will eventually be found so keeping tabs on the MH17 wreckage is vital. If anybody can access the flightaware or flightradar data back around March 7 and prove that both frames were in operation then I will re-consider this theory as I can't. But, it would be possible given the sighting over the Maldives and the 'parts of a US drone' in the cargo story. I'm not suggesting the actual MH17 shoot down was related - that just might have been bad luck - but I'm just suggesting that MH370 could have been taken and then the frame pout back into service flying as MRD. MRO could have been MRD after MH370 or MRD could have been MRO before MH370 - who knows. Just my 2 cents. The whole MH370 investigation does not add up and now there is wreckage from another MH 777 incident - in a site that was compromised for the first few days and probably still is to some extent - MH 777 wreckage turning up in the future being from the MH17 crash site would not surprise me. Even if my theory is wrong, it would still not surprise me that some wreckage will be taken from the MH17 site and placed where ever MH370 is to be found just to put an end to the MH370 mystery. As for the boxes, if that happens they will never be found unless bogus damaged boxes are placed in that area of the seas as well. Does every part of the 777 have it's own serial number so it can be traced to a specific frame? If not, I will always believe that MH370 wreckage could be MH17 wreckage unless of course the same part (such as a specific piece like the tail fin or the left wing tip is found in both locations so then it must be two different frames)...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:21 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 179):
Call me a conspiracy theorist

You're a conspiracy theorist .



Couldn't resist...
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:46 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 179):

I don't know if anybody can access this data, but is there proof that both MRO and MRD were flying at the time of MH370?

In other words were the two aircraft swapped at one stage or, perhaps, was that somehow the plan?

That thought did cross my mind too but, even with knowing very little about aircraft and nothing when they are that size, I'm pretty sure one cannot simply swap planes, certainly not 'just like that'.
The logistics would be too involved without key personnel or crash investigators noticing.

Besides, the aircraft and many of its structural components have serial numbers and identifications, every radio, every servo motor, every exchangeable component would have its own serial number and each one would be well documented. Just think of the inflatable slides in the doors alone..!

That is what I think and would expect. Then again, in these threads we have learned more than just once that what the public believes is happening and what actually does, may sometimes be worlds apart.

With all the information and hindsight knowledge we have so far, I could easily imagine that something like this is what happened:
MH-17 has nothing to do with the disappearance of MH-370, except for the fact that both planes were from the same airline. That crash happening is sheer coincidence and at the same time very tragic and sad.
The ramifications from the MH-17 crash are more political than anything else.

With MH-370 it is a different story.
For starters, I'm still convinced that 9M-MRO was simply not meant to be found, under any circumstances, or at least not in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance.

What might have happened to that aircraft is even more mysterious than the mystery itself.

My personal guess is that with MH-370 we are faced with something much more sinister than meets the eye and, for that reason, it is more serious and concerning.
And I have to say "guess" because, like most other people, that's all I can do.

Whatever happened though, I believe, the satellite pings were falsified; to lead a lot of people up the garden path.
As I said here before, the Satcom people may not have been aware of it themselves.
Equally possible, they may have been forced to become accomplices; but then, why take the risk.
All it would have needed is a bit of sophisticated technology and the appropriate knowledge; of which there is plenty around in this region alone.

This is of course a train of thought that many contributors to these threads simply won't have a bar of; and, who knows, maybe rightly so. I personally wouldn't know; in the final analysis I have to or can only believe what people tell me.

If, on the other hand, this just one single item is correct, that the satellite pings (or the data from that) were falsified, it would open a Pandora's Box of possibilities.
(And a lot of people would have egg on their face..! Just think of WP, or Pihero; I miss both of them ...)

If something of this nature did indeed happen, it would then become possible ....
that 9M-MRO was flown along the Malacca Straight.
By sheer coincidence, the satellite pings started up again, ....
only just a few minutes after the last radar surveillance stopped and ....
right at the point where the aircraft had to turn onto its final or, who knows, simply its next course.

The aircraft could then have been flown to Diego Garcia, or wherever else - without anyone knowing.
After that, to consider just one possibility, the aircraft could have been refuelled and was then remotely flown out into the never-never over the Indian Ocean - to run out of fuel.
But, in that case, they would have heard the noise of the splash, they tell us now..!
So, the aircraft might still be hidden somewhere, anywhere.
(Why waste a good plane if you can use at least some of it for parts..!)

And, who knows, the aircraft in Israel may well have been on standby to eventually become wreckage or a decoy in some other way .... I wouldn't put that past the "Hidden Hand"!
(So there you have it; and you promise to save me if ASIO knocks on my door..!!)

[Edited 2014-07-23 23:54:16]
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:17 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 179):
Does every part of the 777 have it's own serial number so it can be traced to a specific frame? If not, I will always believe that MH370 wreckage could be MH17 wreckage

Check out your own car, 777jet - I'll bet that a high proportion of the components have unique serial numbers on them. Aeroplanes are the same. Not to mention how the insurance companies etc. would feel, receiving about 800 claims for dead people who were supposedly all flying on the same 400-seat aeroplane on different dates?  

Plus the fact that the two 777s appear to have crashed in different hemispheres? Although, as I've said, I think there remains the possibility that they both crashed in the northern one............

PS - crossed with your post, Youngmans. Yes, I think that there is a real possibility that the Inmarsat satellite pings were 'fudged.' But that's a separate issue....

[Edited 2014-07-24 00:24:46]
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 180):
You're a conspiracy theorist .

Thanks mate!

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 181):
In other words were the two aircraft swapped at one stage or, perhaps, was that somehow the plan?

Exactly. Again, no way am I suggesting that the shoot down was part of any plan - whatever plane was flying there at that time would have been hit - but that maybe they were swapped at some stage and it is the same plane as MH370 possibly never crashed and it couldn't just be kept hidden forever. Maybe it was re-fulled and flown remotely to its ocean grave - who knows - but, maybe it was simple put back into service under a different rego in the fleet.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 181):
For starters, I'm still convinced that 9M-MRO was simply not meant to be found, under any circumstances, or at least not in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance.

Likewise. That is how it is looking. It hasn't been mentioned in the news for a while now and MH17 will shift the focus off of it which is a shame as the real mystery lies with MH370.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 181):
What might have happened to that aircraft is even more mysterious than the mystery itself.

My personal guess is that with MH-370 we are faced with something much more sinister than meets the eye and, for that reason, it is more serious and concerning.

Sinister pretty sums up my feelings as well.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 182):
Check out your own car, 777jet - I'll bet that a high proportion of the components have unique serial numbers on them. Aeroplanes are the same.

Exactly - a high proportion. Not everything. I'm sure there are enough parts that cannot be linked to a specific frame so they could be placed somewhere only to be found as belonging to the other plane. Does the paint on such planes use technology like http://www.datadotdna.com/au/datadot_buy_for_car.php ?

Every panel on my car, motor bike, etc. has been sprayed with DataDotDNA so if it is ever stolen and a panel shows up on a different car it can be traced (as long as I know which car to scan for the unique code). I don't think all aircraft panels are the same but I could be wrong. That is all I'm suggesting - that there are plenty of pieces from the plane that cannot be linked to one specific frame so somebody could claim it is from a different plane. That would be a convenient way to discover MH370...

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 182):
Plus the fact that the two 777s appear to have crashed in different hemispheres? Although, as I've said, I think there remains the possibility that they both crashed in the northern one............

I won't rule out any location for MH370. But, do you still think it went down then and there - 40 or so mins into the flight as soon as it didn't check in??? I say no way!!!
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 183):
But, do you still think it went down then and there - 40 or so mins into the flight as soon as it didn't check in??? I say no way!!!

777Jet, I can't imagine any circumstances in which such an experienced pilot would have failed immediately to check in with the next ATC, namely Ho Chi Minh, had he been able to? And, again, if for any reason he'd had to turn back, he'd immediately have told ATC what he was doing?

And the aeroplane 'went off radar' at exactly that moment, too. Kuala Lumpur ATC asked military radar to help, and they found an echo heading west, back toward Malaysia. As far as I know the civilian radar never regained contact? It's entirely possible that the military radar was tracking a different aeroplane from then on?

Where that leaves the Inmarsat stuff I don't know. But that only works on hourly pings, they presumably hadn't had any contact during the first forty minutes. And bear in mind that, for months, all Inmarsat published was a 'spray' of white lines leading south, not a proper track with the pings shown?

[Edited 2014-07-24 21:04:14]
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 184):
777Jet, I can't imagine any circumstances in which such an experienced pilot would have failed immediately to check in with the next ATC, namely Ho Chi Minh, had he been able to?

You said it - "had they been able to"... I'll leave it at that. There are many scenarios why they might not have been able to or might have chosen not to...

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 184):
Inmarsat

My posts from the first day Inmarsat was mentioned was that the data could be wrong either mistakenly or intentionally and I even suggested that Inmarsat could be 'in on it' for whatever reason so I don't take anything that Inmarsat says too seriously...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:25 am

Thanks for being so 'open-minded,' 777Jet. Just looked up modern radar and I discover that military radar still works on 'echoes' in the old way (which I have a little experience of). Civilian radar doesn't work that way any more, it apparently 'taps into' the aeroplane's transponder, which tells them everything - probably including what the passengers were going to have for breakfast!  

But there seems to be no record of any further contact by civilian radar?

So - apart from Inmarsat - there appears to have been no further civilian contact (radar or radio) with the aeroplane after that time?
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 183):
.... the real mystery lies with MH370.

Absolutely correct.

Would aviation professionals (pilots, engineers, ground staff, air traffic controllers etc) be the best people to consider the disappearance of this aircraft and then follow up as to what might have happened?

Or would it be better to hire proper investigators, from totally outside the system, as the wife of one of the missing passengers is trying to do.
It was mentioned here and in the media that she is trying to raise $5 mil.

I suppose the airline and governments would investigate anyway; and they do. Then again, they may be a bit reluctant to actually find all of 'the real truth' if there is something, anything, that they don't want the public to know.

It brings up the question whether there are in fact private investigators that specialise in the aviation industry.
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:45 am

I would just like to put some thoughts in the mix about the pings.
If something is factual I will state it as such.
We know that the pings are communications between the engine manufacturer and the engines, the Inmarsat is just a coms device. Could we accept this a factual?
The manufacturers monitoring room is manned and:data monitored live 24/7. I think that can be accepted as factual too.
Does the ping have a method of telling engine suppliers computers which engine it is, it must have for them to separate all the data coming in. Is this fact, not sure but I suggest it is.
Does the manufacturers computer know if it has lost acars contact, no idea.
This last one could be why the pings started 10 minutes after lost contact either manually or auto. It could be a programmed response to a loss of contact. Pure speculation on my part here.


So to the conspiracy theorists, you plan to make the plane disappear, you must also in real time answer the engine manufacturers computers pings with the correct returning information and also alter the time taken to answer to lead Inmarsat into thinking the plane went south and how far it went.
That would be a master plan indeed based on Inmarsat not even knowing they could do that before the event.

So you cannot just add pings into the satallite data after the event, the engine manufacturer will have received the data in real time. Fact

Hope that's some food for thought
Every days a school day.
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:36 am

777jet,
On the possibility of MH370 frame being the frame that was MH17.
I am afraid that's not possible to get away with. There are hundreds of serialised components on every airframe which would have to be re part marked and some would not be accessible.
I will point you to one specific part which is particularly difficult that I can speak with some authority.
The fan blades in the engines, they have specific data which is specific to that blade. Weights and tip lean serial number etc. this data is used to map the fan set for balance. The records are kept in which engine the blade is in and it's data. You need a piece of specialist kit to weigh the blade and there are only a certain amount in the world. Each machine needs a calibrated master, which is calibrated back to the master blade held by the engine manufacturer.
It is simply not possible to change these indents and not get found out.
Every days a school day.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 188):
We know that the pings are communications between the engine manufacturer and the engines, the Inmarsat is just a coms device. Could we accept this a factual?

From what we have learned here on a.net, the pings at issue are simply a "handshake"; no other data is exchanged. In effect the ground station, via the satellite, will ask the satcom equipment on the aircraft whether it is still on-line; that's all.
Mobile phones were given as an analogy; even if one is not talking on a mobile phone, it still communicates with the nearest tower, both need to know that the other is available.
These handshake pings have nothing to do with the engines.

All the search efforts for MH-370 in the Indian Ocean were based wholly and solely on those handshake pings, after innovative and complicated calculations indicated a possible track.

There were then two possibilities ....
1) The handshake pings were from 9M-MRO and the data from those pings were correctly interpreted.
Calculations were made and, based on those, search efforts were commenced in the Indian Ocean.
The challenge with this was and still is that all parameters of the handshake data are accurate enough to allow for a reasonably compact search area.

Or else ....

2) Either the handshake pings were falsified or the derived data.


If 2) is true, there could again be either of two possibilities ....
a) The satcom equipment on the aircraft was somehow disabled and a different transmitter at a totally different location was used to respond to the handshake pings from the ground station. (The satellite wouldn't know any different.)
The equipment to do this would have to be sophisticated enough and the operators of that equipment would have to be knowledgeable enough to duplicate 9M-MRO's identifier codes, falsify the handshake pings and, in addition, artificially create a presumed track. A track that could afterwards be worked out and calculated to point out over the Indian Ocean.
The Inmarsat personnel probably wouldn't have known about this because their side of the communications and satellite equipment would have functioned properly.

Or else .....

b) The satcam equipment on 9M-MRO responded correctly to the handshake pings but the data from those pings was then falsified afterwards, in the computers of Inmarsat; so that it would indicate a different track.
In other words 9M-MRO could have been flown somewhere else altogether; and nobody would have known.
That, of course, would have had to be done by at least some personnel associated with Inmarsat; most likely under the direct orders from some high up authority.

And if either a) or b) were to be true, it would open a Pandora's Box of possibilities.
The question would then be if anything like that is technically and logistically possible.
The next question would be: Who or what would be behind it?
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:52 am

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 189):
I will point you to one specific part which is particularly difficult that I can speak with some authority.
The fan blades in the engines, they have specific data which is specific to that blade. Weights and tip lean serial number etc. this data is used to map the fan set for balance. The records are kept in which engine the blade is in and it's data. You need a piece of specialist kit to weigh the blade and there are only a certain amount in the world. Each machine needs a calibrated master, which is calibrated back to the master blade held by the engine manufacturer.
It is simply not possible to change these indents and not get found out.

That is very interesting what you are saying there - and, at least for me, to learn.

Next time I'm in Sydney in the Qantas Museum, I'll have a real good look at the fan blades they have there.

Thank you ....

[Edited 2014-07-25 04:55:58]
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:26 pm

The ping data used to determine the search area has some unusual characteristics. (see below)
Therefore it might be worth exploring, whether there might be a motive to modify or fabricate the ping data, and secondly, what that might this imply regarding the final location of MH370.

For this exercise if we ignore the ping data from 1825Z to 0019Z, and accept the radar data, then making the fewest number of assumptions, then MH370 may not have made a sharp turn at all, but instead continued broadly on the last track.

1. What possible motive would the UK have to modify the ping data?
The UK might want to avoid the global attention if MH370 crashed somewhere near the Chagos Archipelago. In a media environment where there are disputes over islands in the South China Sea, the UK might be sensitive to global scrutiny regarding the dispute with Mauritius over ownership of the Chagos Archipelago. See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagos_Archipelago

Quoting wiki:

The Chagos had been part of Mauritius since the 18th century... In 1965, prior to Mauritian independence, the UK split the archipelago from the territory of Mauritius to form the British Indian Ocean Territory.

United Nations' resolutions banned the dismemberment of colonial territories before independence. Mauritius has repeatedly asserted that the British claim that the Chagos Archipelago is one of its territories is a violation of law and of UN resolutions. The UK has stated ... that the Chagos will be returned to Mauritius once the islands are no longer required for defense purposes. Given the absence of any progress with the UK, Mauritius has decided to "internationalize" the dispute and take up the matter at all appropriate legal and political forums.

As part of the occupation the UK forcibly rounded up the indigenous population of Chagos and shipped them to Mauritius. See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Chagossians_from_the_Chagos_Archipelago

Quoting wiki:

Colonial Office head Denis Greenhill (later Lord Greenhill of Harrow) wrote to the British Delegation at the UN:
The object of the exercise is to get some rocks which will remain ours; there will be no indigenous population except seagulls who have not yet got a committee. Unfortunately, along with the seagulls go some few Tarzans and Man Fridays that are hopefully being wished on Mauritius.

Another internal Colonial Office memo read:
The Colonial Office is at present considering the line to be taken in dealing with the existing inhabitants of the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT). They wish to avoid using the phrase 'permanent inhabitants' in relation to any of the islands in the territory because to recognise that there are any permanent inhabitants will imply that there is a population whose democratic rights will have to be safeguarded and which will therefore be deemed by the UN to come within its purlieu. The solution proposed is to issue them with documents making it clear that they are 'belongers' of Mauritius and the Seychelles and only temporary residents of BIOT. This devise, although rather transparent, would at least give us a defensible position to take up at the UN.



Basically the UK occupation and claim over the Chagos Archipelago is contrary to international law and it follows so is the lease by the UK to the US of Diego Garcia. Since the UK is unlikely to be in anyway responsible for the disappearance of MH370, perhaps it was thought that a small modification to the ping data to shift the focus of the search away from the Chagos Archipelago (and Diego Garcia) was a risk worth taking.

2. Therefore ignoring the ping data after 1825Z, what might that imply regarding the final location of MH370
Without the pings we are in a data poor environment for analysis (which is uncomfortable) but for this exercise lets work with that.
a.) The first possibility is to make the simple assumption that the A/C flew on basically the same westerly trajectory as it was flying and that it made no sharp turns at all until it came down. It must not have gone down in a populated area otherwise it would have been reported. Therefore (in this scenario) the A/C most likely went down in the ocean somewhere along track based on the last radar track as the A/C possibly flew back over Malaysia.
b.) Alternatively, the A/C could have remained in a holding pattern or could have turned in almost any direction. If it did enter a holding pattern just beyond radar range then it the only reasonable approach would be to search the coastline around Indonesia.
c.) The only other piece of information we have are the hydrophone data at 0135Z. The experts who analyzed these acoustic events come up with a bearing 301.6° from HAO1 and an approximate distance (+/- 4 seconds) which gives location (2.3°S 73.7°E). There are still more hydrophones to be picked up which could have more information. In the meantime searching along 301.6° bearing from HAO1 in the region (2.3°S 73.7°E) might be worthwhile.
(These suggested search areas are in addition to the current search area, and not to imply the correct search area be dropped.)

Recap of Possible Problems with Ping Data
The ping data from (from 1825Z to 0019Z) is the ONLY data that lead to searches in the SIO, but there are a couple of quirks in this ping data that don't quite feel right.
1. The pings mysteriously restart at 1825Z just a few mins after the A/C is goes out of primary radar range, so we cannot corroborate the second set of ping data with the radar data for this phase of the flight. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to corroborate the pings, no visuals, no radar, no hydrophone data, no debris. It is a little too neat for my liking.
2. Why would the ACARS pings restart? Why would say a potential hijacker turn this back on? With an electrical problem, why would this piece of equipment turn back on?
3. The last ping 0019Z, assumed to be a partial log in after flameout due to fuel exhaustion and to have occurred due to re-powering via the automatic deployment of the RAT, is not consistent with any impact sound recorded by the hydrophones. The only sound we have is at 0135Z more than hour later. As I mentioned before this means either; i. a controlled ditching occurred after the last ping (not picked up by the hydrophones), ii. after flameout someone switched to another tank and restarted an engine so the A/C kept flying and made contact with the ocean at 0135Z or iii. there is something wrong with the ping data.
4. At the end of the day, the ping data is just a few lines in a database, it would only take a single person to modify it to point to the SIO.
5. As far as I know, the ping data is only recorded in the database via the Perth ground station, and was provided 6 days after the loss of MH370 (enough time to make changes).
6. Be interesting to know whether the ping data is duplicated when it is created and how many people have write access to those databases. I would guess that maybe two people have routine write access and maybe another three would have write access in some special circumstances. So in other words it would only take one person to make the changes and they could do that form the UK of course if the UK government ordered or asked the company to do this. The engineers who later did the analysis, might not know anything about it.

[Edited 2014-07-25 08:17:02]
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:43 pm

What I am trying to explain is Satellites don't just ping aircraft, they do so because a computer has asked it to and that the reply goes to the monitor room.

Extract from RR website
Rolls Royce uses Engine Health Management (EHM) to track the health of thousands of engines operating worldwide, using onboard sensors and live satellite feeds.

What I am trying to explain is that the RR monitoring room will have got the data live. That's one data file you have get some one to modify. You have to get someone to change the Inmarsat data and make that match the manufacturers data as that will have been cross referenced. I am not convinced you would get an RR employee to change the data.
You then have hope they never find the plane or your screwed and jobless as the data will not match the black box data.
Every days a school day.
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:47 pm

The pings are the manufacturers computer asking the engines, are you still running?. If they are they reply, but do not send any data from the sensors.
Every days a school day.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 192):
2. Why would the ACARS pings restart? Why would say a potential hijacker turn this back on? With an electrical problem, why would this piece of equipment turn back on?

The pings could "restart" from something as simple as a turn blanking the antenna -- happens all the time with turns of 90+ degrees (not seen in normal airline operation) especially at the edge of coverage.


Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 192):
3. The last ping 0019Z, assumed to be a partial log in after flameout due to fuel exhaustion and to have occurred due to re-powering via the automatic deployment of the RAT, is not consistent with any impact sound recorded by the hydrophones.

The RAT doesn't power that system, the APU would if there was enough fuel in the lines for it to come online and go through the load recovery process before running out of fuel and quitting.
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:27 pm

I read about the last ping and the acoustic events.
I think we all agree we believe this acoustic data is the aircraft hitting the water.
What I would say is people have tried to fit events to that ping. They are theories and could well be incorrect and probably are incorrect.
True facts about this mystery are limited, that's why such far fetched theories can continue to be put around as there are few facts to disprove them.
Once it went off military radar, all we know is the engines were running as that is what pings really mean.
We also have acoustic data which is suggesting an impact.
That's very limited data that clever people have extrapolated to possible sites the plane maybe.
Every days a school day.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 194):
The pings are the manufacturers computer asking the engines, are you still running?. If they are they reply, but do not send any data from the sensors.

Now it becomes confusing ....
It seemed, from what we have learned on these threads, that the pings are no more than a "handshake", as they call it. The purpose of the handshake is that the ground station knows and re-confirms that the aircraft satcom unit is still on-line; put simply, they let each know other that they are (still) connected.
No data, whether from the engines or anything else, is transmitted during these handshakes because it would become chargeable 'payload'. In other words the handshake pings are what Inmarsat does and that is not chargeable; any actual data (engine or otherwise) is chargeable and has to be paid for with hard currency.

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 193):
What I am trying to explain is that the RR monitoring room will have got the data live. That's one data file you have get some one to modify.

But the RR monitoring room would only receive data when it is actually sent to them.
The handshake pings are an internal Inmarsat thing, ergo, RR would not receive anything or even know about the pings; so they couldn't or wouldn't have any record of any pings.
It may well be that RR can initiate a "call" to an aircraft, of their own accord; it would be interesting whether the pilots would be aware of it then, probably yes.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 192):

Your comments are very interesting and something on that line is absolutely plausible.
It would be a motive and it seems pretty clear that Inmarsat have the means to fudge the ping data.
As it has been hinted here already, in many and varied ways:
Those who have the means, almost certainly know exactly where MH-370 has ended up; it's just that The-Powers-That-Be don't want the public to know. Very sad ....

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 193):

To close off on a more pleasant note ....
Have you seen the photo of the sunrise through the fan blades, in today's a.net photos?
I reckon it's an absolute winner.

[Edited 2014-07-25 14:50:16]
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 196):
I think we all agree we believe this acoustic data is the aircraft hitting the water.

You're wrong about that. In fact you may be the only one who is convinced of that.

Trying to find a sound wave (pressure wave) that represents the aircraft hitting the water is not like finding a needle in a haystack, it's more like trying to find a particular piece of hay in a haystack.

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 194):
The pings are the manufacturers computer asking the engines, are you still running?. If they are they reply, but do not send any data from the sensors.

That is not what the pings are. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the engines. They are the satellite system's hourly communications check to see if the connection to that satellite receiver is still alive. The sat system as MAS uses it is only for telephones.

For the 50th time, MAS didn't pay for an ACARS connection via satellite. The only way engine data is relayed is via the ACARS protocol.

[Edited 2014-07-25 17:48:25]
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 69

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 195):
The pings could "restart" from something as simple as a turn blanking the antenna -- happens all the time with turns of 90+ degrees (not seen in normal airline operation) especially at the edge of coverage.

I am baffled that you would write something indicating that an airliner makes 90 degree banks "all the time." I realize that you gave yourself an out with the "not seen in normal airline operation" qualifier, but a 90 degree bank in an airplane not certified for aerobatics is illegal in most places, Tex Johnson notwithstanding.

It is a rare case that an airliner ever made a 90 degree bank and anyone on board lived to talk about it. In a 90 degree bank the only thing that would provide any lift would be the vertical stabilizer and (unfortunately in that case) it is at the very rear end of the airplane; thus; the nose would very shortly be pointing pretty much straight down, which is not good in anything as slick as a jetliner.

Wasn't it you a few weeks ago bringing up a "coffin corner"? Well, nose down is the attitude that occurs immediately after "coffin corner" - right?

A 30 degree bank in an airliner is extreme. But a 30 degree bank wouldn't break the line of sight between the sat antenna and the satellite, and even if it did, it wouldn't be noticeable to the sat system unless it was in the middle of a transmission at that moment - which would only cause a retry, which is no big deal anyway.

This almost seems as if you are trying to sweep the 18:25 login under the rug.

[Edited 2014-07-25 18:45:12]

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos