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Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:12 pm

 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:14 pm

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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:31 pm

True salmon three sevens
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rotating14
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:31 pm

I wonder if this has ever happened before?
 
spacecadet
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:32 pm

Quote:
“Those cars contained aircraft components, denatured alcohol and soybeans, most of which were the aircraft components,” Frost said.

I didn't know they made aircraft components out of soybeans...  
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LH707330
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 4):

I didn't know they made aircraft components out of soybeans...

That's why their useful lives are so much shorter. Bring back the Long Beach sewer pipes!  

I wonder what production disruption this will cause. Presumably, those fuselages will be w/o as a result of this.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:36 pm

The article you linked says "aircraft components" and doesn't mention "fuselage" anywhere. Did you get that information from a different source?
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:38 pm

Three more discounted 737s for FR   

The pic is sad though, they look like they're trying to swim...

[Edited 2014-07-04 11:51:38]
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:40 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):

The article you linked says "aircraft components" and doesn't mention "fuselage" anywhere. Did you get that information from a different source?

Did you look at the picture? Because there are airplanes in a river. In the picture. Airplanes. River. Doomsday.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:43 pm

So what happens in a situation like this? I know those fuselages have been designated for particular line numbers. Will they build out of sequence until new fuselages can be assembled for the affected line numbers?
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Did you look at the picture? Because there are airplanes in a river. In the picture. Airplanes. River.

In fact, the fuselage on the left has the nose pointed right at the camera.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
The article you linked says "aircraft components" and doesn't mention "fuselage" anywhere. Did you get that information from a different source?

The big round cylindrical things floating in the river in the picture included with the article clearly look like 737 fuselages to me. Call me crazy.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 5):
Presumably, those fuselages will be w/o as a result of this.

Nope, Boeing Marketing will sell these as "737: Submarine Edition" models! 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:03 pm

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...5-1C00E45500000578-295_964x637.jpg

From this picture, the one on the left is definitely a 737 fuselage. The one on the right seems a tank.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:03 pm

Was the afternoon temperature there yesterday as high as it is this 4th of July in L.A. that the fuselages decided to take a dip?    .

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 5):
Presumably, those fuselages will be w/o as a result of this.

  Naah...they'd just pass those off as slightly dinged and water damaged...then mark down the price.                .

[Edited 2014-07-04 12:10:47]
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 5):
Presumably, those fuselages will be w/o as a result of this.

Boeing won't be writing anything off.

Writing off is an accounting term meaning you are making an entry to eliminate an asset you don't think you will be able to reasonably recover.

The shipping company or the train operator (if they are different companies) are responsible for the goods while in their posession.

Boeing will get a check for the value of the frames or if they are repairable Boeing will bill the parties responsible for the damage.

They will not be writing anything off.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting EY460 (Reply 14):
From this picture, the one on the left is definitely a 737 fuselage. The one on the right seems a tank.

one is nose in the river the other is tail first.. You can clearly see both "brush catchers"
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:36 pm

Ruh-roh. I sense some 737 delivery delays coming.

Given the fact that the fuselage manufacturer now has to make up the backlog, I wonder how they are going to recover it and get back on schedule.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 7):
Three more discounted 737s for FR

I say more 737s for Qantas, given their recent experience with waterlogged aircraft.   
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
I wonder how they are going to recover it and get back on schedule.

They call it overtime.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 7):
Three more discounted 737s for FR

Given that one usually gets discounts for dented soup cans, FR is well within their rights! 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
So what happens in a situation like this? I know those fuselages have been designated for particular line numbers. Will they build out of sequence until new fuselages can be assembled for the affected line numbers?

Most likely, there were other fuselages undamaged on that train. Based on what I read on that article there were at least 7 cars with aircraft parts of some kind. There won't be much affect.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 16):
Boeing won't be writing anything off.

Writing off is an accounting term meaning you are making an entry to eliminate an asset you don't think you will be able to reasonably recover.

I'd imagine it would depend on who technically has ownership of the fuselages - whether that's still Spirit, the company that fabricated them, or it's Boeing. If it is in fact Boeing and the fuselages are damaged beyond economic recovery, then yes, it could certainly be an inventory-WIP write off on Boeing's P&L.

Whether or not Boeing or Spirit is compensated by the train operator or whomever's insurance company is irrelevant. If Boeing had taken delivery, they would be on Boeing's books - not the train operator's. Likewise for Spirit.

At any rate, I think he was using "write off" in the colloquial sense, as in those fuselages are now junk or scrap. I don't think he was using it to the strict, accounting definition of the word.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
The article you linked says "aircraft components" and doesn't mention "fuselage" anywhere. Did you get that information from a different source?
Quoting EY460 (Reply 14):
From this picture, the one on the left is definitely a 737 fuselage. The one on the right seems a tank.

There are two fuselages (components of an airplane) visible in the picture -- the third one is not visible. The article says Kansas City but probably should have said Wichita where they are manufactured.

This isn't the first time it's happened:

http://blogs.kansas.com/aviation/201...737-fuselages-derailed-by-tornado/
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
I wonder how they are going to recover it and get back on schedule.

at the rate they're pumping out planes, the delay will be minimal.. less if the fuselages were not sequential line numbers. The AOG team may put the back together in a few weeks. However if one was a P-8 (the two shown are not) , then there may be a slight delay.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 24):
There are two fuselages (components of an airplane) visible in the picture -- the third one is not visible. The article says Kansas City but probably should have said Wichita where they are manufactured.

That is true--the 737 fuselages are manufactured in ICT and shipped via railcar to SEA for final assembly. Sad to see them in such a state, however.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 23):
Whether or not Boeing or Spirit is compensated by the train operator or whomever's insurance company is irrelevant. If Boeing had taken delivery, they would be on Boeing's books - not the train operator's. Likewise for Spirit.

Why wouldn't the train operator have some liability? It may be limited unless B/Spirit had opted for some sort of higher coverage but I can't imagine the train operator has zero liability if they lose/damage cargo being carried by them.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:37 pm

What is in the fuselages at this point? If they are just the structural (mostly aluminum) parts, and they are corrosion proofed, I would think they could be salvaged, thoroughly dried out, and used. If they have any wiring in them I would think that that would need to be replaced. If they are "stuffed" it is probably too much work to salvage them. The question is, which I think Boeing should be able to answer, is whether or not there are any long term consequences of the fuselages going for a swim, assuming that there is no mechanical damage. As far as that is concerned, if it just a few dents, the panels involved can be replaced. If the whole structure is distorted, then it is time to start over.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:45 pm

The possibility that this will happen is known. The parties will have anticipated this and covered it by contract. Whomever it is that the contract says is responsible for the damage or for insuring the damage will pay for it. It's business. It gets handled emotionlessly and the parties move on.

Funny how putting fuselages in the river is more-easily-resolvable, with less emotion, than the "damages" to some schmuck whose flight was delayed two hours and now is going to miss his cruise.

By the way, the reason that the railroad might not be paying for this is that shippers, receivers, and transportation companies make express agreements to cover damage in transit and/or accidents in transit. In some cases, the recipient will take possession of the goods at the seller's loading dock, and be responsible for getting it home himself and at his own risk (FOB Seller). The price of the goods from the seller in that case will be less. In others, the seller will take responsbility for the goods through delivery to the recipient (FOB Recipient). The price the seller will charge in that case will be more. If the transportation company is to be responsible for damage in transit, the price will be higher. If not, the price will be lower. More than likely, it is cheaper for a significant purchaser of goods simply to take out a policy, with a high deductible, that covers damage-in-transit for goods that it takes FOB the shipper's dock. The railroad's tariff applicable to the shipment involved (or the contract between shipper and railroad) may or may not include a waiver of liability. The prices for each will be different. It's business, and the companies involved calculate the risks involved and what it costs to ameliorate the risk.

[Edited 2014-07-04 13:48:28]
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:54 pm

Maybe they can start sending them by river like Airbus does with A380...   

The damage could be repair most probabky but maybe it's cheaper and faster to recycle them and take new ones.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:03 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):
at the rate they're pumping out planes, the delay will be minimal.. less if the fuselages were not sequential line numbers. The AOG team may put the back together in a few weeks.

Since the fuselages are empty, playing musical chairs won't be that difficult unless one is a -600 (which isn't built very often, if at all) or a -700 if their are not many coming off the line in this time period. Damage wise, it's not salt water.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Nope, Boeing Marketing will sell these as "737: Submarine Edition" models!

Salvage the metal and make Submarine Spitfires to complement the Supermarine ones.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 23):
'd imagine it would depend on who technically has ownership of the fuselages - whether that's still Spirit, the company that fabricated them, or it's Boeing. If it is in fact Boeing and the fuselages are damaged beyond economic recovery, then yes, it could certainly be an inventory-WIP write off on Boeing's P&L.

With all due respect, this is an incorrect knowledge of contractual law. In some circumstances, the buyer will take delivery before actual physical delivery. However, the vast majority of contracts do not allocate any liability to the buyer until buyer has possession.

This is akin to ordering an item from the internet. In the vast majority of cases, you are not responsible for damage or destruction of the item unless (1) you've contracted that right away or (2) you have received the item.

[Edited 2014-07-04 14:24:23]

[Edited 2014-07-04 14:24:46]
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 26):
That is true--the 737 fuselages are manufactured in ICT and shipped via railcar to SEA for final assembly. Sad to see them in such a state, however.

Kansas City is a huge rail hub. They are probably first sent by rail to KCK, then routed up to Seattle. When I was young I could see fuselages all the time in KC.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:40 pm

... And WN is already having a hard enough time getting enough 737s  
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 16):
Writing off is an accounting term meaning you are making an entry to eliminate an asset you don't think you will be able to reasonably recover.

Well in English English, that is only one of many meanings for the term. Fortunately, English is used for a lot more purposes than just accounting.

Another more commonly used meaning is "damage beyond repair". Those fuselages definitely look like they fit that definition.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
The article you linked says "aircraft components" and doesn't mention "fuselage" anywhere. Did you get that information from a different source?

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Quoting trex8 (Reply 27):
Why wouldn't the train operator have some liability? It may be limited unless B/Spirit had opted for some sort of higher coverage but I can't imagine the train operator has zero liability if they lose/damage cargo being carried by them.

Generally the rail operator would not be liable unless it is proven that the railway did not do something that would be out of the norm. It would really depend on the cause of the accident.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:26 pm

Stitch probably knows, but somewhere I got the idea that Boeing took delivery in Wichita and shipped them themselves.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:27 pm

At least its fresh water not salt water.

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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:28 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):

Maybe not these, but you can repair planes that has been laying in water http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_2
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 23):
I'd imagine it would depend on who technically has ownership of the fuselages - whether that's still Spirit, the company that fabricated them, or it's Boeing. If it is in fact Boeing and the fuselages are damaged beyond economic recovery, then yes, it could certainly be an inventory-WIP write off on Boeing's P&L.

Well, looking at this:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 24):
There are two fuselages (components of an airplane) visible in the picture -- the third one is not visible. The article says Kansas City but probably should have said Wichita where they are manufactured.

This isn't the first time it's happened:

http://blogs.kansas.com/aviation/201...737-fuselages-derailed-by-tornado/

At the end of the linked article, this is said, "Spirit spokeswoman Debbie Gann said Spirit stands ready to support Boeing in any way it can."

So it seems like it won't be an inventory-WIP w/o on Boeing's sheets.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:35 pm

Does anyone know which airlines these 737s were destined for?
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Given the fact that the fuselage manufacturer now has to make up the backlog, I wonder how they are going to recover it and get back on schedule.

Considering that they're building over 40 a month, it won't take long to catch up.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 31):
Since the fuselages are empty, playing musical chairs won't be that difficult unless one is a -600 (which isn't built very often, if at all) or a -700 if their are not many coming off the line in this time period. Damage wise, it's not salt water.

737-600 is no longer available. The last of the 69 -600s built was delivered to WestJet almost 8 years ago. Several -600s have already been scrapped.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 30):
The damage could be repaired most probabky but maybe it's cheaper and faster to recycle them and take new ones.

Highly doubtful the damage is repairable, and even if it was, what customer would want a new aircraft where the fuselage has rolled down an embankment into a river and been repaired? I certainly wouldn't.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting greaser (Reply 34):
With all due respect, this is an incorrect knowledge of contractual law. In some circumstances, the buyer will take delivery before actual physical delivery. However, the vast majority of contracts do not allocate any liability to the buyer until buyer has possession.

This is akin to ordering an item from the internet. In the vast majority of cases, you are not responsible for damage or destruction of the item unless (1) you've contracted that right away or (2) you have received the item.

This isn't Amazon. This is a corporate transaction involving large, expensive objects. See this reply:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 29):

While I disagree with wjcandee's conclusion, he does explain the role of commercial terms. In commercial transactions such as this where there is transportation involved (i.e. the buyer is not walking into a store or something), "delivery" is rarely a physical act of the the buyer holding the item. Delivery can be anywhere between the seller's dock and the buyer's dock, both ends inclusive.

None of us here, probably, knows what commercial terms were used in this situation. Furthermore, we don't know enough about the circumstances to say what happened (in the sense of the carrier's degree of responsibility, if any). It is highly unlikely the railroad is 100% protected from liability. The Carmack Amendment imposes what is essentially strict liability for loss of cargo on the carrier in interstate commerce. I am assuming this situation meets the definition of Interstate Commerce, as Montana Rail Link does not operate solely within Montana and probably would have received or passed the load outside of the state. However, parties to a contract for carriage may limit the liability of the carrier. Undoubtedly, the Bill of Lading issued by Montana Rail Link had some limitation of liability in it. I am trying to find a sample BoL for Montana Rail Link online. A sample freight tariff I found indicates that MRL limits its liability to $10,000 per loaded car, with a $500 additional fee for full liability coverage.
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
Highly doubtful the damage is repairable,

don't know what damage you're visualizing, however the two shown are still attached to the rail car and upright.. Had they left the railcar and rolled maybe. Think back to some recent accidents where the A.net experts immediately wrote off the plane only to see it fly again.. (ETH, QF, etc)
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Nope, Boeing Marketing will sell these as "737: Submarine Edition" models

I think its more likely they will P-8 Poseidons...   
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mayor
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:37 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 38):
Generally the rail operator would not be liable unless it is proven that the railway did not do something that would be out of the norm.

If it was a de-railment, I don't see where it couldn't be the carrier's fault. If it's like most transportation transactions, as soon as the carrier signs the bill of lading, the shipment becomes their responsibility. When the buyer (or consignee) signs for it at the destination, after having inspected the shipment, it becomes the buyer's responsibility. Very simple, actually.
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:52 pm

I have seen these trains before, In Montana, I believe.

Anyways, does anyone know how complete these fuse sections are when shipped off the the Puget Sound? Are they just bare aluminium, or have they been fitted with electrics, hydraulics, ect? Are we just talking aluminium? Or a more complete product?
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 18):
I say more 737s for Qantas, given their recent experience with waterlogged aircraft.

Was looking for a thread on that here and curious when I didn't see any.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 42):
Highly doubtful the damage is repairable, and even if it was, what customer would want a new aircraft where the fuselage has rolled down an embankment into a river and been repaired?

Might be more difficult in (owned or leased?) QF's case with the a/c interior flooded at altitude...but perhaps just natural, it being a "whale"?  .

Quoting n797mx (Reply 45):
I think its more likely they will P-8 Poseidons...

If those were B73G fuses, Boeing could offer them to others needing shorter platforms only.   
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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cjg225
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 46):
If it was a de-railment, I don't see where it couldn't be the carrier's fault. If it's like most transportation transactions, as soon as the carrier signs the bill of lading, the shipment becomes their responsibility. When the buyer (or consignee) signs for it at the destination, after having inspected the shipment, it becomes the buyer's responsibility. Very simple, actually.

It's conceivable that it wasn't. As I said above, we really don't know what happened here. Derailments can occur for a variety of reasons. MRL may have actually not been at fault.

With respect to the responsibility of the parties, as discussed above, the shipper or the receiver has responsibility at every point. It's not that the seller has responsibility for loss until tendering of the load to the carrier, then the carrier has sole responsibility, and then the responsibility shifts to the buyer at the time the carrier tenders to the buyer. The carrier's responsibility is concurrent with that of another party, but it is a different kind of responsibility.

The carrier has some level of responsibility, but we do not know what it is without knowing the specific terms of the contract between the carrier and whichever party arranged for the shipment. Maybe there was a 3PL involved, which changes things even more (though I get the idea that with something like this that there are direct contracts with Montana Rail Link and other railroads, because MRL doesn't reach into Wichita). If it's like the terms of the tariff I found online earlier, MRL's liability is limited to either $10,000 per loaded car or the value of the load in-full if the arranging party ponied up the additional $500 per loaded car for full liability coverage.
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