aviatorcraig
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:20 pm

You know how lumberjacks tie all their logs together and float them downstream to the sawmill... just a thought!

Seriously, With a modern 'just in time' supply chain, some customer(s) are definitely going to have a slippage of their delivery dates.
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BravoOne
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 97):

In the past at least it was not that uncommon to find bullet holes in the fuselage. I think the cover put over them now has some bullet resistance qualities and obviously those kind of holes are easier to repair although at least one customer did reject the fuselage with these holes.
 
CyberEntomology
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:52 pm

These trains go from Spirit Aerosystems here in Wichita up to the rail yards in Kansas City, and then get sent West. There were six 737 fuselages on this train, as well as a couple of section 41 components for 777/767/KC46 (also built by Spirit's Wichita plant). I expect the Section 41 parts were inside their special containers, and are likely still intact. Pictures from the scene show at least a couple of the 737 bodies shredded pretty hard. They may still be able to salvage one or two of them, but I doubt it. One of the 737 fuselages lying in the river looks like it's got a pretty good bend in it, but the Section 41 part appears to be intact and may be reusable. If not, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these see new life as non-flying parts for cabin mockups, static displays... maybe someone will buy it at a salvage auction and turn it into something neat.

I'd imagine that the Spirit crews will also get a little overtime putting replacement ones together to get production back on track.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:54 pm

Kudos for crashing a plane before it even took off! 

Well, I'd take such a fuselage section. Make it waterproof, put in a bunch of thermal insulation, and here it is, my home...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:30 pm

I'm shocked that some people would think an airline would take frames built from these parts. Bleh.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
rwessel
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 72):
Look again at the pic I posted. There appears to be another frame still on the tracks. So there could be many more than 3 frames on that train.

But how many derailed and ended up in the drink? The article says 19 cars, and we seem to see three 737 fuselages. That might well have been additional 737 fuselages on the train that didn't derail. Of course it's possible that some of the other 13-16 cars that derailed did carry 737 fuselages, but I'm not sure there's been any definitive word on that (and while we can see two additional 737 fuselages in the pictures, they're still at least approximately on the tracks).

BTW, in:

http://i.imgur.com/xHDZ3Js.jpg

you can see three of the spacer cars on the slope above the fuselages.
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:12 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 81):
One question brought up in another board was with the [temporary?] loss of these freight cars that are specially designed to carry 737 fuselages, will their be an impact on deliveries due to loss of freight capacity?

several cars are usually in maintenance or back up.. the separator cars will just need a check up and back to service, the carrier cars will need laser realignment after the basic check out.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 91):
The article also says some 747 parts were on the train.

All those rusty high boxes are 747/777 components..

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 101):
In the past at least it was not that uncommon to find bullet holes in the fuselage. I think the cover put over them now has some bullet resistance qualities and obviously those kind of holes are easier to repair although at least one customer did reject the fuselage with these holes.

We used to put kevlar blankets on to prevent damage and found yourselves polishing out scratches, Usually holes mean a skin replacement and Renton has a dedicated team that can do that without affecting the production position. The big boxes are for skin panels and smaller parts in transportation fixtures, this was not a reaction to occasional bullets but to keep them from rattling around in the wind. Only auto transport cars have shielding and it's more of a visual deterrent than anything.
 
bchandl
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 78):
You are the one doing the manipulation, by seeking to restrict the meaning to the accounting definition, and criticising others for using "write-off" in other perfectly acceptable ways.

Then I ask again, how are you defining it?
 
karadion
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 65):
5039

Looks like 5638 to me.
Edit: Nevermind, looks like a zero to me for 5038.

[Edited 2014-07-05 10:37:37]
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 107):
Then I ask again, how are you defining it?

He/she specifies that already in post 25

Quoting speedbored (Reply 35):
Another more commonly used meaning is "damage beyond repair".
Those fuselages definitely look like they fit that definition.
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cjg225
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 63):
In the claims process, almost everyone gets involved.....the company that made the rails, the railcar mfr, etc. No one wants to be soley responsible for paying the entire claim. Unless rail transportation is very much different than air transportation, the shipper is responsible to make sure the shipment is whole and intact for shipment.....then it's the carrier's (or an agent's) responsibility.......then the consignee becomes responsible when signing for it. It is possible that the railroads do it differently......I do not know.


It is also possible that the all cargo airlines do it differently than the legacies.

My one post got deleted because it quoted someone else's post that was deleted, and I can't remember what I'd said that may have already covered this.

Yes, everyone gets involved. There is rarely "sole" responsibility. For ease of explanation and by limiting the discussion to just the shipper, carrier, and consignee, I used the word "sole."

I think this is the simplest and most general way to boil it down:

The commercial terms chosen by the buyer and seller indicate when risk of loss transfers. There is not a no-man's-land between the buyer and seller. At all times from the seller's facility to the buyer's facility one of the two parties has risk of loss. The carrier is responsible to the party with the risk of loss, typically. So, between the buyer and seller, if the merchandise is destroyed in-transit, the buyer will be liable to the seller or the seller will be liable to the buyer, depending on the commercial terms chosen. The carrier will then be liable to the buyer or seller, depending on which was liable to the other.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:29 pm

These all look like 800s to me.
Note 14 windows prior to blank, UA 900s have 16 before blank
No exit door behind wing
4th aircraft appears to be up the hill, maybe still on the tracks.
Torn off tail section is probably from one of two with tail in the river.
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:40 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 95):
I feel that these fuselages will ever fly, I doubt Boeing’s lawyers, after their fiasco in repairing the JAL 747 that later crashed because of a faulty repair will risk the liability of another incident later, remember these airplanes will probably see 20 to 25 years of hard service being sued many years down the road if something ever happened where Boeing could be held either directly or indirectly for the accident.

But again you never know, Boeing may surprise everyone and repair one or two fuselages, maybe even all three, Boeing has done some amazing repairs in the past.

Boeing has done some amazing repairs in the field to 'in service' aircraft (think QF 747-400 runway overrun at BKK and the fire damaged ET 787 at LHR) when the PR pressure is to avoid a hull loss. This is different as the fuselages have obviously not been delivered yet to customers - the PR pressure is the opposite.
The only parallel I can think of is the pre-delivery EY A340 that jumped its chocks on an engine run at TLS and hit the blast wall. In that case Airbus did not use any components or structures in new build aircraft. The wreck became the property of the insurers (thats not to say that some components didn't find their way onto the second hand parts market of course).
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flyingturtle
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:03 pm

(Nitpick:

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 112):
that jumped its chocks

there have been no chocks. Only the parking brake has been set, which was insufficient for that engine run.)
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
TC957
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:25 pm

If any of these frames were due to go to Lion Air, I expect they may have ended up in the drink anyway   
 
Viscount724
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 87):
Quoting bchandl (Reply 72):
So there could be many more than 3 frames on that train.

I researched the shipping a few years ago on railfan/ railroading sites, and if my memory is correct - the fuselages are shipped as three unit sections.

So there would be 3, 6 or 9 fuselages in the train.

There are many videos of trains carrying 737 fuselages and quite a few don't agree with that. Here's one with 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p48cGpON0hI

Another with 4 (two months ago):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESaUjQMsZcc

And one with 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_TDGJPa-Xs

There's another with 5.

[Edited 2014-07-05 17:01:08]
 
wjcandee
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:14 am

The videos I have seen don't seem to show Hulcher [or RJ Corman] out there (yet); mostly MRL crews so far. However, I did see the nose section of a 737 sitting in a front-end loader, so it looks like at least some of the fuselages aren't being salvaged intact.

[Edited 2014-07-05 17:17:11]
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:01 am

So, at least three, if not more, hull losses for the 737 series. What does it do for the hull loss statistics of the model? There have been no 737-900 hull losses and only 11 for the 737-800...
 
a318
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:02 am

Found this on Reddit.com; looks like one was 5032.

http://i.imgur.com/YxQ0QpV.jpg
 
KELPkid
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting luxair_ca (Reply 76):
look at the following Picture Galleryhttp://www.king5.com/news/Train-dera...66171.html?gallery=y&img=3&c=y&c=ythe 4th Picture Shows a 777?? tailsection, which Looks completely destroyed, parts ripped off the structure etc...Marc
Quoting rwessel (Reply 71):
The report is the 19 cars derailed. Presumably the soybeans and denatured alcohol were in the 13-16* that weren't carrying B737 fuselages.

Looking at picture #3 from the gallery above, I see three 89' piggyback flat cars (modified for 737 fuselage duties) and three idler flat cars. The railroad counts them as "cars" because (as far as I know) they are not connected by drawbars, but rather standard AAR couplers, and the idler cars have their own reporting mark number distinct from the 89 foot flatcars that carry the fuselage.

Trailer Train (now TTX corporation) has some modified 89' flat cars that are joined by drawbars, and both cars in the set have the same reporting mark and number. They use them for "Triple 53" service, where three 53-foot trailers can be placed on board, one of them bridging the two flat cars.
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Viscount724
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 117):
So, at least three, if not more, hull losses for the 737 series. What does it do for the hull loss statistics of the model? There have been no 737-900 hull losses and only 11 for the 737-800...

That won't affect the hull loss statistics as they're only aircraft parts until the aircraft is assembled.
 
747400sp
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:35 am

Well that three less narrowbodies to have to worry about.      
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 120):
That won't affect the hull loss statistics as they're only aircraft parts until the aircraft is assembled.

Ok. Is there a definition that I can look up? (And they seem to have individual hull numbers, however...)
 
manny
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:42 am

There were 6 fuselages. In one pic i see 5 of them.

The line numbers that i could spot was 5029 and 5032 (in reddit pic which was taken before the accident).

[Edited 2014-07-05 19:48:16]
 
manny
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 75):
I see 4 in this picture, 3 of them in the water:

http://i.imgur.com/EJVBCzL.jpg

I see five fuselages in this pic.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:15 am

"Look, we save Lion Air the trouble..."
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 122):
Ok. Is there a definition that I can look up? (And they seem to have individual hull numbers, however...)

Yes, they have individual line numbers assigned, however so do many of the components coming from elsewhere.. i.e landing gear, wings, tail feathers, computers, floor panels, etc.. so when all the pieces arrive at the FAL, the mechanics know which go to which fuselage (except for the time they put the wrong wings on a 757).
Just because a part or assembly has a line number assigned doesn't make it a complete plane.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 82):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 81):Really? Well, so are plane crashes but they still happen. Trains can and will leave the rails at times, even if they carry fuselages.
Like plane crashes, they usually aren't an "Act of God", they have reasons. If the wheels came of one of the freight cars, then it was most likely poor maintenance.

I understand, but I was replying to a comment calling this incident "embarrassing" and "unacceptable" and something out of 1914. Unfortunately, not everything is fail-safe/bulletproof.

In this incident there was a suggestion that the high temperature that day (93) may have caused a sunkink. It's also possible it was a mechanical issue. Regardless, it's a little early to label the incident anything other than an unfortunate event while we wait to learn the cause.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:11 am

Here is one more picture. I would be surprised if any of these is going to fly:

http://www.krtv.com/images/thumbnails/FDDAA0AF8A0C8D757813D49367FC208E_787_441.jpg

Aviationweek article:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...tion-likely-after-train-derailment
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:21 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 127):
I understand, but I was replying to a comment calling this incident "embarrassing" and "unacceptable" and something out of 1914. Unfortunately, not everything is fail-safe/bulletproof.

In this incident there was a suggestion that the high temperature that day (93) may have caused a sunkink. It's also possible it was a mechanical issue. Regardless, it's a little early to label the incident anything other than an unfortunate event while we wait to learn the cause.

The way to stop that happening is to have the tracks tied down adequately. If you can't do that, then speeds have to limited.
 
a318
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:47 pm

Looks like we can also add 5032 and 5035 to the list too... (See first post)

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comment...ough_nebraska_last_monday_and_saw/
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 92):
Thinking more about doors and slides for emergency procedures.

NW routinely did this when they retired the 747-100's--they had door sections cut out and sent to MSP for use in door drills as well as DC-9 and 727 overwing exits.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 125):

Hahahaha too true   

I would say quote of the thread but obviously that title must go to me.
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lightsaber
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:33 pm

Wow... "Honey, I had a bad day..."

Quoting shankly (Reply 2):

True salmon three sevens

  

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Did you look at the picture?

Or others... definitely 737s.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 29):
Maybe they can start sending them by river like Airbus does with A380...

Any choice at this point?

Quoting TC957 (Reply 114):
If any of these frames were due to go to Lion Air, I expect they may have ended up in the drink anyway

  

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 121):
Well that three less narrowbodies to have to worry about.

I think there will be more economic growth and thus more demand for *efficient* narrowboddies than man (including DL's CEO) think. Look at the growth of KUL and Chinese growth is still fast. What I think will suffer is older less efficient narrowbodies.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 128):
Here is one more picture. I would be surprised if any of these is going to fly:

Thank you. Excellent photo to share.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 129):
If you can't do that, then speeds have to limited.

They do restrict speeds in certain temperature situations. Sometimes, though, the temperature changes more significantly or more quickly than they predict.

If you think I'm saying that there is NOTHING that can be done to prevent accidents, that'd be incorrect. However, there are train derailments all over the world - in 2014 - so this is neither a unique incident nor an overly surprising one. I suppose there is some amount of money that could be spent to prevent ALL accidents, but I'd think it'd be 2214 before we got done with the project, let alone paying for it.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting WASHINGTONflyer (Reply 58):
Doesn't really matter who has title of the fuselages, I can almost guarantee that the fuselages were insured and that there will be an insurance payout. Insurance will likely try to seek coverage from their reinsurance carrier who will then try to recover from Montana Rail (or whomever was the rail carrier).

Given the damage likely incurred including water damage, gouging, punctures, etc., I am of the opinion that those three fuselages are heading towards the scrap remelter.

I share your opinion.

It's only a bit annoying for the customer, who might have been waiting for these airframes for fleet replacement / growth.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:54 pm

-Doc Lightning-

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frmrCapCadet
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:33 pm

There is an excellent book, Train Wreck, with extended discussions of what causes derailments. The causes are many and varied.

Another interesting discussion (amongst many) is PTC, Positive Train Control, and how difficult and complex, likely bleeding edge, not cutting edge.
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747srule
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:20 pm

Captain Sully was flying an Airbus, not a Boeing!! Miracle on the Clark?
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TVNWZ
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:20 pm

Since they are working to remove the tubes intact it wod appear they are trying to save them.

Slap some speed tape on them. Good as new.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 117):
There have been no 737-900 hull losses

Didn't Lion Air put one in the drink?

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 139):
Since they are working to remove the tubes intact it wod appear they are trying to save them.

Slap some speed tape on them. Good as new.

Unless they are sure that they are scrap, this is only prudent. I would presume the one that is broken will be deemed unrepairable, but even that is not guaranteed. It is better to scrap them later than to treat them as scrap now and later realize that they could have been saved. As to the one that is broken, if the damage is local the affected panels can be replaced. But I suspect that the entire structure has been overstressed, and repair is unlikely.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Viscount724
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 140):
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 117):
There have been no 737-900 hull losses

Didn't Lion Air put one in the drink?

It didn't go into the drink. It was a hard landing at SUB. Not sure whether that one has been officially declared a hull loss yet.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20140201-0

Several photos of the damage in the preliminary accident report (link in above summary).
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 141):
It didn't go into the drink. It was a hard landing at SUB. Not sure whether that one has been officially declared a hull loss yet.

Yes, the one I was thinking of was a -800, I had thought it was a -900ER.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:56 pm

Unbelievable, these birds were destroyed by a 35 MPH train derailment.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 143):

35 mph is pretty fast. Lots of mechanical damage can take place slowing down an object from 35 mph to 0 mph.
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SEPilot
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 144):


35 mph is pretty fast. Lots of mechanical damage can take place slowing down an object from 35 mph to 0 mph.

And even more can happen tumbling down that embankment; even if it starts at a standstill.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 140):
Didn't Lion Air put one in the drink?

These 3 in the drink are now being treated for future Lion Air services...
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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cjg225
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:59 pm

RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 145):
And even more can happen tumbling down that embankment; even if it starts at a standstill.

And the moving at 35 mph part is undoubtedly how they came to be at the bottom of said embankment.  
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
trex8
Posts: 5378
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:24 am

http://worldairlinenews.com/tag/n977an/
Well this 737 may have been going quicker 72 mph but didn't fall down as much

[Edited 2014-07-06 19:28:00]
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:37 am

It looked like they stayed on the rail cars for most of the trip down the hill. And slid off at the end. They are not far from their train cars.

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