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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 199):
I'm just curious what Spirit charges for these far from finished aircraft and use that as a legitimate dollar value loss.

There so many variables that any assumption placed on any number quoted could be refuted/challenged or interpreted by people with egos to strut or axes to grind into meaningless garbage.. too often a number floats out as an estimate or "ballpark" and by 6AM the next day it's an absolute engraved on line 11 of 10 commandment tablets. Then the lawyers get hold of it and ...

Re: why the divestiture.. that's really another subject and thread if you want to pursue it.... but let's not divert this thread.
 
trex8
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 199):
An airline does this same math, such as WN's NG that landed nose first at LGA. It was determined it was not worth repairing so it went to the scrapper.

IIRC there was thread showing it was repaired and back in service.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:40 am

If I was a customer purchasing a new plane, I'd demand a new body.
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 202):
If I was a customer purchasing a new plane, I'd demand a new body.

and you would go to the back of the line..
 
737tdi
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 201):
IIRC there was thread showing it was repaired and back in service

Not to throw this thread off track but I will answer this. This aircraft was written off as too expensive too repair. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130722-0 . There have been a couple of other incidents where the aircraft was repaired after an accident but this wasn't one of them.

OK, back too our scheduled programming. Sorry.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 173):
Consider that the airplane fuselage has several segments 41, 43, 44, 11, 46 and 48 with special join plates and bulkheads. They may take a damaged fuselage to Renton separate the damaged sections, insert a new build sections and away we go.

When you do that you oversize every fastener hole on the joint. There went your repair margin for a potential next incident. Aircraft have been repaired on the line at Spirit/Boeing ICT where sections of rivets were drilled out and replaced with the first oversized, but not a complete fuselage join. And when a plane is so repaired, the airline gets consideration. Now add to the one fuselage splice repair/replacement, all of the other damage that needs to the sought out and fixed. I could see the possibility for a relatively undamaged section to be retained for a potential re-use for AOG support, but that would also be unlikely. In an AOG situation an airline in need would pay for a new section. I could see some use of the sections in the lab for testing or AOG training.

Quoting kanban (Reply 191):
They may determine the easiest way is to separate the damaged sections and replace with a new section.. We've done that in the field before.

In an AOG situation your are trying to salvage an entire airplane. Spending $6 million to salvage a $90 mil airplane is a good investment. Spending $5 million to salvage a $10 million fuselage, that will require providing a discount to the ultimate recipient, not such a good investment.
 
n471wn
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 201):
IIRC there was thread showing it was repaired and back in service.

I suspect you are mixing this a/c up with the 737-800 that had a tail strike at LAS which was repaired and is back in service but the 737-700 that landed nose first at LGA was scrapped
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 205):
When you do that you oversize every fastener hole on the joint.

No you only oversize holes on one side of the joint, the other remains as built.. The attach flanges on the join frame are designed to take several successive over sizes over the years of major maintenance. The replacement section skins will slip over the existing frame at one end and the opposite end frame will slip under the skins of the other section..

There is no need to retain a partially damaged fuselage for either test or AOG (or maintenance) training..

While I recognize your numbers were just examples, please don't use them.. too many will jump and say "Oh a fuselage is worth $xx Mil" ... You don't know, and they will treat it as gospel.

We have done full circumferential skin replacements before.. that's a lot os oversize rivets.
 
StTim
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 203):
and you would go to the back of the line..

I suspect that would not be the case. I have a contract for a new plane on an agreed delivery date. It is not my fault that you had a production issue and cannot deliver. From that agreed point you are likely to be liable for additional costs I face due to your failure to deliver.

Delivering a plane that cannot realistically be described as new on time also has a penalty as maintenance will be higher and I suspect insurance will be higher throughout that frames life. Why should I wear those additional cost?

Lots of overtime being worked in production planning offices I suspect.
 
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kl5147
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:37 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 41):
Quoting KL5147 (Reply 93):
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 99):
Quoting a318 (Reply 118):

any more known about which line numbers are involved?
"The world is just a click away!"
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 208):
I have a contract for a new plane on an agreed delivery date. It is not my fault that you had a production issue and cannot deliver.

there are clauses that let the builder out of delivery dates.. strikes are the most frequently used, this would be another especially if the customer rejects the repaired fuselage the meets or exceeds the contract criteria and life expectancy (heck most are sold again before the life expectancy limit hits).

example look at the early 787 customers, they opted for later and had to wait for a line opening.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 210):
there are clauses that let the builder out of delivery dates.. strikes are the most frequently used, this would be another especially if the customer rejects the repaired fuselage the meets or exceeds the contract criteria and life expectancy (heck most are sold again before the life expectancy limit hits).

At least according to Wikipedia, Boeing machinist strike of 2008 "cost the company $100 million per day in revenue and penalties with a postponement of the delivery of aircraft", but maybe you have better information in which cases Boeing has to pay penalties. I would assume that in the derailment case Boeing has to pay penalties, and overall the indirect expenses (penalties, disruption of the supply chain etc.) far exceed the direct expenses (the production value of the fuselages).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Machinists_Strike_of_2008
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 211):
At least according to Wikipedia, Boeing machinist strike of 2008 "cost the company $100 million per day in revenue and penalties with a postponement of the delivery of aircraft", but maybe you have better information in which cases Boeing has to pay penalties

Compared to the revenue (which was just delayed not lost) the penalties were probably negligible. Boeing was delivering about 40 airplanes a month or 2 a day (normal "work" month) which would easily account for the $100 million, plus the $100 million was probably a bit of an exaggeration.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 211):
I would assume that in the derailment case Boeing has to pay penalties, and overall the indirect expenses (penalties, disruption of the supply chain etc.) far exceed the direct expenses (the production value of the fuselages).

I don't think the penalties (if any) plus the other stuff will come anywhere near the cost of 3-4 fuselages. With a production rate on the 737 of over 40/month (2/day) there is probably already a plan in place to feather in new fuselages in Wichita with minor disruption. Late delivery isn't necessarily based on the day of scheduled delivery.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 211):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 212):

Really doesn't matter. All the expenses, penalties, delay costs etc will all be part of the insurance claims. Then Billable hours will ensue.
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 213):
All the expenses, penalties, delay costs etc will all be part of the insurance claims. Then Billable hours will ensue.

It's too bad that the moment something unscheduled occurs, the first reaction and biggest debate is "who's going to pay? and how much?" The second reaction (at least here) is "scrap"

I have found that airlines (and most customers) are a lot more tolerant than the visible spokes-personages.
 
737tdi
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 214):
have found that airlines (and most customers) are a lot more tolerant than the visible spokes-personages.

Really, Say all of those frames are for WN! I would not bet against at least one of them is! Does that throw a cog in the wheel? A few days is a marathon to an airline. 143 passengers a day when they scheduled all of these airplanes. It is not an anomaly. It is a scheduling nightmare. They were due, PERIOD.
 
rcair1
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 15):
Boeing will get a check for the value of the frames or if they are repairable Boeing will bill the parties responsible for the damage.

Not necessarily - it depends on the contract.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 36):
Generally the rail operator would not be liable unless it is proven that the railway did not do something that would be out of the norm. It would really depend on the cause of the accident.
Quoting mayor (Reply 46):
If it was a de-railment, I don't see where it couldn't be the carrier's fault.

An investigation will be required. I believe the train and the track are from different companies - so there is one level of complexity - was the derailment caused by something in control of the train, or something in control of the track. Or was it something completely separate.

Quoting WASHINGTONflyer (Reply 58):
Doesn't really matter who has title of the fuselages, I can almost guarantee that the fuselages were insured and that there will be an insurance payout. Insurance will likely try to seek coverage from their reinsurance carrier who will then try to recover from Montana Rail (or whomever was the rail carrier).

Many large companies self insure - so it is not at all a given the these are insured.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 67):
This sort of thing might have been reasonably expected .. in 1914! Embarrassing, ridiculous and unacceptable today

Trains derail all the time.
rcair1
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 215):
Really, Say all of those frames are for WN!

they weren't.. they were for 3 different airlines..

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 215):
They were due, PERIOD

Some give you a wedgie?... in all probability, all planes will be delivered within their contract period.. which is several months away.. If a customer can not make adjustments around a delay, they're not too bright.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 217):
in all probability, all planes will be delivered within their contract period.. which is several months away.. If a customer can not make adjustments around a delay, they're not too bright.

This will cost Boeing something. But some airline will be willing to accept a delay for a payment or a discount. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but not free either. Thus other airframes will be freed up to meet the contract times for the ones that went into the drink.

But almost a rounding error. 3/500 isn't even a percent... But still not free.

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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:34 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 218):
This will cost Boeing something.

There are costs yes, but not necessarily payments or discounts.. yes the acceleration of some materials and extra man hours cost the company, but it's a nit.
 
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135mech
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:35 am

For those negative Nancies... This truly was an accident!!! Boeing, Spirit, and BNSF didn't do this on purpose! The Airlines of all affected aircraft understand this (occasionally and RARELY) happens!!! Yes it will delay things for those few airlines, but the companies will work together to get things going as quickly and smoothly as possible! Please stop acting like this was a conspiracy, and realize this was an actual "accident"!

135Mech
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Pellegrine
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:40 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 202):
If I was a customer purchasing a new plane, I'd demand a new body.

I sure wouldn't take some crap that fell down a gorge into a river either. Why expose my airline to potential the liability and inefficiency (heavier) of said aircraft? Nope.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:33 pm

C

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 215):
Really, Say all of those frames are for WN! I would not bet against at least one of them is! Does that throw a cog in the wheel? A few days is a marathon to an airline. 143 passengers a day when they scheduled all of these airplanes. It is not an anomaly. It is a scheduling nightmare. They were due, PERIOD.

Considering that one of the frames was a B737-900 we can be reasonably sure that it was not going to WN. An earlier post stated that it would have become a 737-900ER for DL.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
StTim
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:32 pm

There is some merit on both arguments. The point is we cannot, and probably even Boeing currently, don't know the full extent of the damage.

The bare fuselages rest on supports. It is obvious from the damage we can see on one frame that there must have been significant flexing to cause that damage. We do not know what accelerations were caused by the derailment and un-fettered journey down the bank.

I agree there will often be minor damage on a "new frame" which is repaired. The question is how much can be realistically done and the customer still charged for a new plane? That will depend on the contract and negotiation. All of that will be behind closed doors.
 
catdaddy63
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:35 pm

Boeing and Spirit likely have contingency plans in place for these type of situations. My thinking it's quicker, simpler, and probably cheaper to have Spirit work three replacement frames into production over the next 60 days and resequence the assemly line in Renton rather than try to rework these three frames. There are likely parts and panels that can be removed and reused after inspection that could partially offset the costs.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 224):
My thinking it's quicker, simpler, and probably cheaper to have Spirit work three replacement frames into production over the next 60 days and resequence the assemly line in Renton rather than try to rework these three frames

  

Looking at the relatively low-res pictures of the fuselages that made it down the side of the gorge, there is a significant amount of very visible damage. Given that these frames will have been subjected to significant g-forces on their journey down, and that they have been dragged through a number of mature pine trees on the way, I would be amazed if there are not also huge numbers of more minor scratches, dents and holes that are not visible in those pictures, as well as more serious hidden damage around the mounting points.

Given the amount of automation that goes into producing new frames, and the efficiency of the production process that churns 2 of these out every day, I just can't see how if would be more cost effective to repair these frames than to produce replacements. Repairs would entail a lot of costly man hours (in both testing and repairs), lots of bespoke parts, and a vast amount of paperwork. In my opinion, they will be scavenged for any re-usable parts and then scrapped.
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 224):
here are likely parts and panels that can be removed and reused after inspection that could partially offset the costs.

From a manufacturing standpoint, there is nothing worth the effort to salvage, reinspect and attempt to install on a new unit.. every fastener pulled will require an oversized replacement.. automation can not handle oversizes. You go oversize in structural forgings, and you limit service life. every skin panel would need to have the AV-8 and any sealing and bonding adhesives removed manually. Same for any ribs or stringers some of which have subsystem bracketry installed to support customer unique configurations. Every reused part will require a special engineering review and drawing deviation approval, and the FAA frowns on reuse of components.There is little in the sections to save from that standpoint,

However it is very easy to inspect and repair the fuselages, including replacing a section.. or a single skin panel, or polish out some scratches. This is not new, they've cleared brush before, lacked clearance with a passing train carrying oversize freight, been moving target practice for bored ranch hands, endured rocks breaking loose in the mountains, even an occasional derailment , although on flat land.

Yes they grind out 2 fuselages a day, but (if I recall correctly) there are 10 or more sets of sequential tooling and at least 10 steps in each line, so from first tool load to flatcar loading is several months, and everything is spoken for or unique to a customer/model. Since most customers have multiple units on order, there could be an attempt to accelerate the next unit(s), and put a replacement (if needed) in to load 18 -24 months or so out.

As far as weight increases, look at the patches for seam bonding issues on some Southwest planes, many pounds more than these would require.
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting JettaKnight (Reply 166):
It could get even more complicated if the cause of the derailment is determined to be due to a failure or improper maintenance of a car owned by a third railroad or leasing company.

IIRC, the cars transporting the fuselages are owned (or leased) by Boeing. So if, and that's a big if, the derailment was caused by a mechanical failure of the cars, Boeing will be paying for all damages to the planes, cars, track, and other cargoes.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 177):
They are instead haulage rights trains where the entire train is consigned by BNSF to MRL for handling only (not billing or anything else) by MRL crews.

Sounds right.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 186):
If you've ever seen the "Big Hook" working a derailment scene on a railroad (that's what railroaders call the gigantic cranes that are used to clean up a train wreck), you'd know that you wouldn't reasonably expect to recover aerospace parts. Most railroads place the priority on re-opening the rail line, as the rail line being closed costs the railroad far more than lost loads (most of the time). Not sure how the replacement costs of a 737NG fusleage factor into that...

The railroad considers anything that derails "paid for by the insurance company" and aren't concerned about saving the contents. Opening the mainline and getting trains moving (ie. making money instead of losing it) is job #1. Sometimes, most times, they don't even wait for the accident investigation to begin.

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 193):
I don't know the particulars about MRL's agreement with BNSF for this section of track, but there are many factors that would play into assigning liability to an incident such as this, particularly whether the root cause of the derailment was crew error, a mechanical problem with the rolling stock, or a track issue. Depending on the investigation's findings there may be a substantial amount of litigation in the event of a dispute between the two parties.

The NTSB accident report is just the starting point of the arguements. Sometimes the cause is cut and dried, we'll have to wait for the professionals to make the determination.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 195):
If it was one of the flats used for the Boeing move, those are BNSF cars and MRL might find a clever way to exploit that, if it's already not spelled out in their agreement.

See above, I think they belong to Boeing (or are leased) as they have been specially modified for a single commodity and cannot carry anything else.


Just like a plane crash that can be caused by weather, mechanical, or pilot error, etc, train derailments can have a long, confusing, causal chain.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
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kanban
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 227):
I think they belong to Boeing (or are leased) as they have been specially modified for a single commodity and cannot carry anything else.

Boeing does lease them and the idler cars to ensure availability.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:18 am

Looks like the fuselages are being scrapped on-site:

http://missoulian.com/crews-dismantl...0-1386-11e4-93eb-0019bb2963f4.html

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TC957
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:14 am

Well I guess that solves that arguement then about repairing the damaged fuselages. I bet the 3 airlines whose frames these were destined for refused the aircraft. Presume the l/n's will just be cancelled now. We will know soon as these frames were only about 10 down the line from the current production.
 
StTim
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:40 am

The report does state that there were six fuselages scrapped on site.
 
bennett123
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:50 am

The article confirms that 6 B737 fuselages were scrapped.
 
bmibaby737
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:31 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 37):
Quoting kl5147 (Reply 167):
it might be concluded that 5030 and 5031 are also involved.

A photo on this website: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/737s-water-41196.html clearly shows 5031, you'll have to register to see the photo large though.

Quoting kl5147 (Reply 167):
From the three hulls in the river, the one in the front (with nose uphill and cracked fuselage) is reported as 5029 and 5039.
The middle one (nose in the river) and the one in the back (nose uphill and cracked fuselage) has not been identiefied afaik.
Also the fuselage uphill (from which the tailpart has been separated) is not identified.
In this thread l/n's 5029, 5032, 5035, 5036, 5037, 5038, 5039 are mentioned as beeing involved. (1 more l/n than fuselages in the transport)
In the Reddit pic before the accident l/n 5032 is easily identified.
If the foremost fuselage in the river is indeed l/n 5029 and not l/n 5039, and if the fuselages are transported in sequence, it might be concluded that 5030 and 5031 are also involved.
Just out curiousity I would like to know which specific l/n eventually is found where.

This site: http://www.largescalecentral.com/for...ive-derailment/view/post_id/250444 is reporting them as; 5029, 5030, 5031, 5032, 5035, 5036.
 
bennett123
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:35 am

So what happened to 5033 and 5034?.
 
PHX787
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 229):
Looks like the fuselages are being scrapped on-site:

Can they save the usable parts ?
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TC957
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 234):
So what happened to 5033 and 5034?.

Perhaps they were on carriages that didn't derail and crash over the side.
 
karadion
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:46 pm

If that website is correct, the list is:
5029 - 737-900ER United Airlines
5030 - 737-800 Southwest
5031 - 737-800 Nok Air
5032 - 737-800 Southwest
5035 - 737-800 Shenzen Airlines
5036 - 737-900ER Delta Airlines
 
tjh8402
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 237):
If that website is correct, the list is:5029 - 737-900ER United Airlines5030 - 737-800 Southwest5031 - 737-800 Nok Air5032 - 737-800 Southwest5035 - 737-800 Shenzen Airlines5036 - 737-900ER Delta Airlines

That forum is a large scale model railroad hobbyist forum (I'm on there, same SN). No idea if the information is credible or not. That's obviously not to say that people on there can't have connections to either the railroad or aviation industries and get this information. I don't know Craig Townsend (the poster who listed those l/ns) or where he got those l/ns from.
 
karadion
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:02 am

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/S...led-airplane-bodies-268655602.html

Here's a picture of the 737's being crushed and baled.
 
iahcsr
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:29 am

What of the wings, tails, engines, etc that were destined for the six fuselages? To be used on other frames or stored for the replacements?
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 239):
Here's a picture of the 737's being crushed and baled.

Looks like the pessimists called this one correctly.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:33 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 241):
Looks like the pessimists called this one correctly.

I don't think it was too pessimistic to feel that no airline would want to own a plane whose fuse had jumped the rails and gone for a rocket ride down to the river, then got pulled back up and dusted off. You could also imagine that Boeing wouldn't want to answer the question "was that one of *those* fuselages?" ten to twenty years from now when such fuse had some sort of problem. Best to show the pictures with them being reduced to shreds and being sent back to become beer cans and let the insurers, accountants and lawyers figure out who pays for it all.
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Viscount724
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 240):
What of the wings, tails, engines, etc that were destined for the six fuselages? To be used on other frames or stored for the replacements?

This shows the parts Spirit Aerosystems builds for the 737 in Wichita. Click the other aircraft types on the left for the same information for those types.
http://www.spiritaero.com/Capabiliti...duct_Responsibility/Boeing_737.htm
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 241):
Looks like the pessimists called this one correctly.

Call me a pessimist. I have worked on these NG 737s since they went into service and have seen what it takes to repair minor damages. These were not minor damages.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 241):
Looks like the pessimists called this one correctly.

Aerospace parts don't stand a chance in a train wreck. They just aren't designed to withstand the forces that (heavy) railroad equipment can place upon them   That was the point that I made much earlier in the thread...
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dc1030cf
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:54 pm

Boeing is sending the fuselages to the scrap yard. So sad http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...024160934_737fuselagescrapxml.html
 
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 245):
Aerospace parts don't stand a chance in a train wreck. They just aren't designed to withstand the forces that (heavy) railroad equipment can place upon them   That was the point that I made much earlier in the thread...

I'm not sure what an empty 737 fuselage weighs ... but if you consider the MTW of around 174,000 lbs (for a 738), that's the entire plane ... wings, tail, fittings, passengers, freight, fuel, engines ... etc. Subtract all but the shell, and it's probably not all that much, comparatively.

Now ... railroads ... nothing on a railroad is light. Or small.

It's not atypical of a freight car to weigh 40-60,000 lbs ... empty. A single axle, with two wheels, alone, is several thousand lbs.

small locomotives (GP9, etc) are a "mere" 235,000 lbs. Large ones (SD70, etc) are almost double that.

So if you consider the railcars in this train, they were probably around 100,000 lbs (for the 737 flats), up to a max of 234,000 lbs on other freight cars. Multiplied by however many cars are in the train. Plus a number of locomotives.

This isn't millions, this is tens of millions of lbs.

Any time a train moves, that's a tremendous amount of mass in motion ... the kinetic energy is just insane.

A small, thin, lightweight, and fragile aircraft or aircraft part is just a bug on a windshield by comparison.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:16 am

Reminds me of the 4,703 new Mazdas en route from Japan to the U.S. aboard the vessel "Cougar Ace" that almost capsized near the Aleutians in 2006. Most of the vehicles weren't damaged although they'd been suspended by their restraints at a very sharp angle for over a month while the ship was towed to Oregon. At one point Mazda was considering selling them but then decided to scrap them all, worth about $103 million.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/15/m...l-cars-aboard-capsized-cougar-ace/

[Edited 2014-07-29 20:17:15]
 
n471wn
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RE: Train Derails And Sends 3 737 Fuselages Into River

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:37 pm

My assumption is that Spirit will assign the same numbers to the new frames that are replacing the now destroyed frames. That is to say that for example 5029 will now go on a replacement frame. To do anything else would screw up the numbering sequence

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