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fanoftristars
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Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:36 pm

Interested in the hot/high performance for the A320. I'm sitting on one in SLC where they just pulled three passengers off so we could make the flight from SLC-MSP. Outside temps are just below 100, but this seems like it should be an easy task for the A320, since we are nowhere near max range to MSP. What gives?
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:12 pm

Wow, would three passengers really make that much of a difference on an A320?
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:17 pm

Much like the 73G does for the 738, the 319 does for the 320. I recall seeing an airbus ad years ago about the 319 having "hot and high" performance characteristics.

[Edited 2014-07-07 15:18:02]
 
Mir
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 1):
Wow, would three passengers really make that much of a difference on an A320?

If you're overweight by the weight of one passenger, then one passenger makes a huge difference.

That said, SLC-MSP should be able to go out with a full load, so I'd suspect some sort of MEL restriction that imposed a weight penalty.

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wn676
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting fanoftristars (Thread starter):

Interested in the hot/high performance for the A320. I'm sitting on one in SLC where they just pulled three passengers off so we could make the flight from SLC-MSP. Outside temps are just below 100, but this seems like it should be an easy task for the A320, since we are nowhere near max range to MSP. What gives?

What's the weather like in MSP? They could be uploading extra fuel, which combined with the field conditions might create a weight restriction.

We'd often run into these problems in the summer headed east out of PHX. 757s going to PHL or A320s going to DFW, all segments which you wouldn't think would be affected by any type of payload restriction, ended up having them whenever the weather would (figuratively) turn south at the destination or somewhere en-route that would force a rather lengthy detour.
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kdhurst380
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:05 pm

I'm not sure how things work in the US, but in Europe where landing fees are calculated based on aircraft weight, regardless of physical MTOW/performance, airlines more often than not order aircraft paper derated.

For example, easyJet have A320's that are limited to 73,500kg, and others deployed on longer/heavier routes at 77,000kg.

BA's entire A320 fleet is derated to 73,500kg.
 
Prost
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:51 am

Some (most) of DL's A320s are very well seasoned aircraft. They may not have the same performance characteristics as a newly built frame.
 
boeingguy26
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:44 am

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly does "hot and high" mean?
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:47 am

Hot air temperature and high runway elevation above sea level = "hot and high".
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SEPilot
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 6):
Some (most) of DL's A320s are very well seasoned aircraft. They may not have the same performance characteristics as a newly built frame.

That should not affect their "book" performance, even though it might impact it some in reality. If a plane is maintained it should retain original performance. In practice, dings and wear do deteriorate it some, but that is not taken into account. The performance figures are still what the pilots go by, and there is no provision in them for age. Either the plane is airworthy or not, and if it does not meet the performance figures it is not.
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Prost
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:56 am

But haven't Airbus improved the A320s performance over the past 20 years?

[Edited 2014-07-07 19:46:04]
 
KingAir200
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 10):
But haven't Air us improved the A320s performance over the past 20 years?

They have. The OP probably was on one of the first batch of 320s that have the lower thrust CFM56-5A1 engines.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 8):
Hot air temperature and high runway elevation above sea level = "hot and high".

Yes, both of those things make the air "thinner" (less dense) which means the jet engines do not produce as much thrust as they would in "low and cold" locations, so they end up having to lighten the load i.e. offload pax and their bags.
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boeingguy26
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 8):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):

Ah, very well. Thank you both! I remember reading a thread on Barcelona being a "hot and high" airport and I was assuming heat and elevation but wanted to make sure. Thanks again.
 
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hufftheweevil
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:53 am

Another small factor is that these A319s and A320s are holding "less" fuel during the summer. Because fuel load is measured in pounds, and because the density of fuel decreases when hot, the tanks are maxing out at a few hundred pounds under the required amount. (If this is confusing, note that the volume of the fuel is the same...a full tank is always a full tank...but a full tank weighs less in the summer.)

So if the load is 42,200 lbs (max on the A320 family without ACTs), they're usually only able to hold between 41,700 and 42,000 lbs. Not usually a major problem, but if the weight and balance numbers are really close (i.e. on the edge of the envelope), it can prevent a flight from leaving with all of its payload.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Issues With A320 Hot And High Performance

Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:43 am

Quoting boeingguy26 (Reply 13):
Ah, very well. Thank you both! I remember reading a thread on Barcelona being a "hot and high" airport and I was assuming heat and elevation but wanted to make sure. Thanks again.

Barcelona is definitively not high. It lies 3.8 meters above sea level.
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