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ua2162
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HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:29 am

Stumbled across this:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0FG26I20140711?irpc=932

Fair use excerpt:

"Since that aircraft may not be produced we are evaluating our options. The A330neo may be an alternative to the A350-800, though today we have not had the opportunity for a full assessment of the aircraft or the other alternatives."

What would be the other alternatives? The 350-900? Boeing perhaps? Seems to me HA has a bit of leverage with Airbus. Not a ton but some. Maybe enough to get a good price on whatever they decide.
 
747400sp
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:48 am

I feared this was going to happen, I hope they chose to go with the A359.
 
Deltabravo1123
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:53 am

I was thinking the A350-900 also. I would love to see a 787-9 in Hawaiian colors. Not sure if that would ever happen though. 777 is too big for HA and they seem a bit to buddy-buddy with Airbus to go for a Boeing.
 
LV
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:57 am

I was thinking HA and Boeing aren't the best of friends right now. Then again if LeBron and Cleveland can kiss and make up I suppose anything is possible.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:00 am

I dunno. The 359 seems like way too much plane for HA, while the 788 or 330neo would seem about right. Given the wax and wane fortunes of Hawaii as a destination, you'd think you'd be a little bit conservative with your fleet plans and go with the smallest variant in the family to start with, as they had done with the 358.

If the 330neo doesn't go ahead and the 358 is canned, I wouldn't be surprised at a 788 order.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:46 am

Can Amedeo please give them a killer deal on one or two of their a380s?
They would look AMAZING in HA livery!
I mean, its not like other US airlines are biting the bait anyways..
 
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airportugal310
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):

Why would you "fear" this? Does it personally affect you?

Quoting LV (Reply 3):

You couldn't be anymore incorrect, but curious why you think they aren't "friends"? Business is business. Something enthusiasts forget BIG time

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 4):

Ding ding someone who gets it

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 5):

If none of the other airlines think it's feasible, why on Earth would HA opt for a VLA?
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
bchandl
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 5):
Can Amedeo please give them a killer deal on one or two of their a380s?

You can't be serious.....

What routes would they even be able to fill more than half that plane on a regular basis?

Does no good to get a killer deal on a bird that you lose money on every flight. Even if they got them for free, they would still lose money on operating them.

bchandl

[Edited 2014-07-12 00:06:53]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:09 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 7):
You can't be serious.....

I'm pretty sure they aren't.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
travelhound
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:11 am

If I remember correctly one of the reasons why HA wanted to keep the A350-800 was because of its range.

If this is the case than an A330NEO may not be the aircraft HA needs?

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):
You couldn't be anymore incorrect, but curious why you think they aren't "friends"? Business is business. Something enthusiasts forget BIG time

Yes, business is business, but in my experience personalities do come into it!

Just have a look at some of the remarks SRB made when V Australia's 777's were delayed!

Travelhound!
 
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rotating14
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:04 am

I would imagine that they'll and not touch. As mentioned, the 350-800 provided the specific benefits that the HA CEO was looking forward to in the A358. ** He won't want to lose his deposits so he'll try to get as much out of A but if Airbus chooses not to build it then thAt is a breach of contract so the deposits would /should be returned and they can shop around. Does anyone know when HA was supposed to receive its first A358?

Hawaiian Airlines CEO Mike Dunkerley --

Quote:
“There’s been much talk about the A330neo, but obviously we must wait to see whether that will come to pass,” Dunkerley said. “For now, the A350-800 does three things for us: it has long range, it’s slightly larger than the A330-200s which we fly now, so it provides for a bit of growth, and it’s more fuel efficient, so it represents a hedge on fuel prices.”
 
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RWA380
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:22 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 4):
The 359 seems like way too much plane for HA, while the 788 or 330neo would seem about right. Given the wax and wane fortunes of Hawaii as a destination, you'd think you'd be a little bit conservative with your fleet plans and go with the smallest variant in the family to start with, as they had done with the 358.

Exactly why HA chose the 358, it gives HA the range, capacity and efficiency that HA needs to remain the best to the Islands. IMO, HA is the best product flying to Hawaii from the mainland F & Y.

Without the 358, that long awaited LHR route will not be possible with a 332  

Without a suitable Airbus aircraft I do hope HA looks at Boeing, but it seems HA is pretty well invested with Airbus with the 358 and 321neo orders. If HA can't get the widebody it wants from Airbus, could they back out of both orders and pursue a 737MAX & 788 order?
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mildaiv
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:36 am

They have several options:
1. Wait if airbus make optimized A358
2. Upgauge to A359
3. Take A330-900
4. Take B787 either 800 or 900 or mix.

I guess the will wait for more details about A330NEO, than evaluate all possibilites a choose plane that best fit their operations. Airbus probably offer them good price for all Airbus options to compensate problems they did them. Boeing has to offer slots in this decade to became viable option.
 
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rotating14
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:39 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 11):

Why would they pursue the MAX? They already have A321's coming. Stranger things have happened but I doubt they'll buy the MAX at this point. 787-8,9? If the A358 is not produced and Airbus gives back the deposits, then I could see the potential for a 788 or 789. Hell, fire sale the terrible teens and call it done.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:04 am

Is it that big of a problem for Airbus to keep Hawaiian in the loop With the A358 ? I mean, is the difference that large from the A359 ? They will be coming from the same factory line right ? How much extra work / money would it be to keep the A358 line open for Hawaiian ?
 
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RWA380
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 13):
Why would they pursue the MAX? They already have A321's coming. Stranger things have happened but I doubt they'll buy the MAX at this point. 787-8,9? If the A358 is not produced and Airbus gives back the deposits, then I could see the potential for a 788 or 789. Hell, fire sale the terrible teens and call it done.

I speculated this:

"If HA can't get the widebody it wants from Airbus, could they back out of both orders and pursue a 737MAX & 788 order?"

Not that HA would split their aircraft types with both Airbus & Boeing. Many speculated that the reason HA went with the 321neo was the current 332 fleet and the 358s on order. If HA had 788s on order would they still have gone with the 321neo vs the 737MAX?

The key is this is all just speculative and not really a defendable point, so do with that what you will.
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Ab345
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:37 am

As mentioned in the reuters article the A330neo or A338/339 will have increased range and extra capacity so it won't be only about fuel burn savings. Since HA already operate A330s it will be a better fit than introducing a new type, especially if Airbus don't change the neo that much. Of course certification for all Airbuses is rather easy to execute within different types but this is for HA to worry  

Regarging the A358 , I m sure it will be produced but surely not now and not in the form we know it.If you remember during the January press conference in TLS John Leahy mentioned they were looking at changes to the frame to make it worth while. One solution I think he mentioned was adding more seats or stretching it a bit. Even with the orders that are left, HA is not their biggest worry. SU and OZ are the bigger players even if SU went partialy to the 359. The problem with HA is that its route structure cannot really support anything bigger than A359/772 and maybe that's being generous,

The way facts are looking now, HA will go for the neo. The A358 they studied when ordering it will probably never come to production.
 
F9Animal
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:54 am

Prefer to see HA just cool down aircraft purchases. Seems like their financial performance has slowed lately. I would love to see them grow, but I just don't think it is a good option in the near future. The A350 is going to look sharp in HA colors though!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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rotating14
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):

Oh I agree that we're just flapping our gums here. I just don't think they'd pursue the MAX if they have a similar product on order from another competitor.

K
 
ha763
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 4):
The 359 seems like way too much plane for HA

I agree, the A359 would have too many seats for HA.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 10):
He won't want to lose his deposits so he'll try to get as much out of A but if Airbus chooses not to build it then thAt is a breach of contract so the deposits would /should be returned and they can shop around. Does anyone know when HA was supposed to receive its first A358?

HA's first A358 was supposed to delivered in 2017. HA wouldn't lose any deposits since they can turn around and tell Airbus to apply any payments to their A321Neo order, which also is due for delivery in 2017.

I'm hoping HA will go for the 787-8 and -9 and move their A358 deposits to their A321Neo order.
 
airbazar
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 4):
I dunno. The 359 seems like way too much plane for HA

Relative to what? The reason why nearly every customer changed from the A358 to the A359 is because they get extra seats at nearly the same operating cost. So even if HA can't fill all of those extra seats, it's not costing them any more to fly the plane compared to the A358.
If the alternative is the A330NEO, the A359 will only have what? 2 extra rows of seats? Is that really that much of a difference?
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):

I agree. It may be likely that HA will convince Airbus to cut them a discount on the A359. It seems that former A358 customers are being shifted over to the A359 on a case-by-case basis. But I expect Airbus will accelerate shifting those customers to the A359 as the A358 order book is now very small, with just a handful of customers.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
Relative to what?

Their existing fleet. They've jumped from 763 to 332 and, supposedly, 358 in fairly quick order. They've tried new routes and dumped them. Others have worked but it's pretty hi and miss so far.

I'm not saying they'll never need them. And you are still flying around empty seats - that does carry a cost, particularly if you can't fill them. Or you can just watch your yield decline.

It would just seem prudent to go with an aircraft family that offers you a range of seating options. Airbus has managed to come up with a single "family", skewed towards the higher end capacity, requiring two different engines (359, 35J). One would assume you'd want to limit your exposure to excess capacity by going with a proper family of jets and start from the lower capacity offering. Then, as you settle on your "hit" routes, you trade up to higher capacity.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:42 pm

I think in the end, HA may be looking at a 10-12 plane 788 buy if Airbus cancels the A358 project. Assuming HA uses the plane up to 7500 nm range, that's still enough to cover all destinations from HNL across the Pacific and all the way to the US East Coast.
 
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Polot
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
If the alternative is the A330NEO, the A359 will only have what? 2 extra rows of seats? Is that really that much of a difference?

Well 2 additional rows plus 1 more seat per row in Y (and HA has 30+ rows of Y seats in their A332s) and suddenly you are looking at 50+ additional seats.

Remember that they have a small F class (although I expect its real estate to grow on whatever plane they take)- HA's A332s have more seats than DL/US's A333s.

[Edited 2014-07-12 09:14:20]
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:14 pm

If the operating costs of the 358 and 359 are very close and Airbus cuts HA a deal on the 359, it would make sense for HA to grab those frames. This is especially true if Airbus gives them a deal that is essentially what they negotiated on the 358s.

It would represent 50 or so extra seats but given there is very little cost associated with those seats, HA isn't really losing anything in the process.
 
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par13del
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting ua2162 (Thread starter):
What would be the other alternatives? The 350-900? Boeing perhaps? Seems to me HA has a bit of leverage with Airbus. Not a ton but some. Maybe enough to get a good price on whatever they decide.

One assumes that they had an expansion plan when they decided to order an a/c for future delivery, now that Airbus has delayed the a/c I would start with the airline plan, not the a/c OEM plans.
Is the expansion plan still valid, can it be delayed further, must they use leased a/c, purchase different a/c, etc etc etc.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
The reason why nearly every customer changed from the A358 to the A359 is because they get extra seats at nearly the same operating cost. So even if HA can't fill all of those extra seats, it's not costing them any more to fly the plane compared to the A358

Well it is costing more, as you say at nearly the same operating cost. In general everyone takes the principle that every airline can use more, however their are instances where for some carriers they order exactly what they need.

Customers who ordered the A358 should be getting A330-200 / 300 to tide them over, unless Airbus finds some way to get them early 900 deliver slots.
I always try to remember that the airlines did not order the a/c to give the OEM clients but because they needed the lift.
 
airbazar
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 24):

Well 2 additional rows plus 1 more seat per row in Y (and HA has 30+ rows of Y seats in their A332s) and suddenly you are looking at 50+ additional seats.

How does 2 rows of 9 seats each equal 50 extra seats?

Quoting Polot (Reply 24):
Remember that they have a small F class (although I expect its real estate to grow on whatever plane they take)- HA's A332s have more seats than DL/US's A333s.

They have more seats because they have domestic F seats in their F class cabin, which don't take up nearly as much space. These days anything short of flat beds in international long haul first class is unacceptable. On the flip side, there may not be a market for tru intl F to/from HNL.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 25):
If the operating costs of the 358 and 359 are very close and Airbus cuts HA a deal on the 359, it would make sense for HA to grab those frames. This is especially true if Airbus gives them a deal that is essentially what they negotiated on the 358s.

I suspect Airbus has already given them a lot of deals. The delay compensation alone would probably cover that.

Quoting par13del (Reply 26):
I always try to remember that the airlines did not order the a/c to give the OEM clients but because they needed the lift.

Sometimes not even the manufacturer knows how good or how bad a new model will come out, such was the case with the 783 vs. 788 and 358 vs. 359. A lot of things can change during the course of designing and producing a brand new airplane.
 
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Polot
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:56 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
How does 2 rows of 9 seats each equal 50 extra seats?

Because you are comparing the A330NEO to the A350. A330NEO = 8 abreast Y (most likely). A350 = 9 abreast Y.
 
bchandl
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 11):
Without the 358, that long awaited LHR route will not be possible with a 332  

They're struggling to make JFK work by most accounts, I don't think going another 4000mi east to an even smaller market to try there luck.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 13):
Hell, fire sale the terrible teens and call it done.

HA doesn't want the red headed step children. Easier to wait a little longer, keep flying the 767 and grab some nice new 788s

bchandl
 
bobnwa
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 29):
They're struggling to make JFK work by most accounts,
 
bobnwa
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:38 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 29):
They're struggling to make JFK work by most accounts

What source do you have for that Statement?
 
tortugamon
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 10):
For now, the A350-800 does three things for us: it has long range, it’s slightly larger than the A330-200s which we fly now, so it provides for a bit of growth, and it’s more fuel efficient, so it represents a hedge on fuel prices.”

A 789 does all of those things. A 788 is a swap for an A332 and he clearly wanted growth. Maybe the added 10 seats on the A332/8neo will be enough.


tortugamon
 
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hawaiian717
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 7):
What routes would they even be able to fill more than half that plane on a regular basis?

While I agree that the concept of a Hawaiian A380 is ludicrous, I could see it possibly working on LAX-HNL. This assumes they replace all three A330 flights with a single A380 flight, and the frequency reduction doesn't cost them too many pax who would want to fly at a different time of the day.

Don't forget when talking about the fairly quick growth in plane size from 767-300 to A330-200 to A350-800 that the 767 represented a capacity decrease from what they had previously with the DC-10.
 
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RWA380
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 29):
They're struggling to make JFK work by most accounts, I don't think going another 4000mi east to an even smaller market to try there luck.

Which is why the big cheesy grin right after the words you quoted, it is an A.net inside joke, as there have been countless posts and threads about a LHR-HNL route being feasible, and it eventually boils down to a war about where the best beaches in the world are.
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VCEflyboy
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:52 am

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 33):
While I agree that the concept of a Hawaiian A380 is ludicrous

FYI Hawaiian said they are seriously considering buying the a380 - alas in a few decades.. lol
The a380 was in Honolulu for a sale pitch to HA in Dec 2012, and got the traditional Hawaiian welcome -video: http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/Worl...ands-in-Honolulu/17714012#!bdT08a

Here is a Hawaiian a380 mock-up:
http://flyawaysimulation.com/downloa...hawaiian-airlines-airbus-a380-800/
 
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airportugal310
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:01 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 17):

Doesn't matter what you prefer, as it matters what the investors and the BOD prefer. And that's a fact, like it or not

Quoting bchandl (Reply 29):

I've noticed you speak with authority in many threads here, and that needs to stop. Now. You are very wrong and need to stop speaking as if you are in the "know"

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 35):

Absolutely not. See above. The A380 was in HNL as part of a customer service event. I was on it. However, using that as conclusive evidence is extremely wrong as that airplane was just stopping by enroute to some other place (can't remember where)

[Edited 2014-07-13 02:03:53]
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:33 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 35):
The a380 was in Honolulu for a sale pitch to HA in Dec 2012

Though the sales visit was likely for the A321neo at the time as the MoU for 16 aircraft was signed in January of 2013, a mere month after the A380 Demo visited HNL and firmed rather quickly in March 2013 in this Airbus press release.

On topic, in my realistically humble opinion (is that even possible?), I think that HA is entertaining, or "looking at" as the thread title reads, to the 330neo as a way to weigh all it's possible options without a quick cut and tug from the order book. The 359 is too much aircraft for HA. Never say never, but currently and in the foreseeable future it is larger than HA wants. They ordered the 358 not for its larger size, but for it's legs. If HA just wanted a larger aircraft it would have taken the A333 and not the A332. I am sure there was a nice deal for the 358 choice along with the 332 orders that were being put in at the time as well. My take is that HA browses the 330neo while talking with Boeing on 788's (though 789s are possible as it is about the same size as the 358...ish) in order to show it's not banking solely on Boeing's product, waits for the breach of contract on Airbus to cancel the 358, have an offer from Boeing on 788/9 and pull the trigger on an MoU while using the 358 deposits transferred to the 321neo order without incurring a penalty from Airbus as ha763 mentioned. But I think that this will depend on which 787 has the legs for HA's intentions as well as if HA still intends on longer routes in it's future. As of now that does seem to be the case without them formally stating when or where.

I would be surprised to see a 359 in HA colors, but in my years following aviation you can never say never with any sort of confidence.

Respectfully,
Pohakuloa
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:48 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 36):
Absolutely not. See above. The A380 was in HNL as part of a customer service event. I was on it. However, using that as conclusive evidence is extremely wrong as that airplane was just stopping by enroute to some other place (can't remember where)

I believe it was routing to HKG after it's Hawaiian vacation.
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:03 pm

Hawaiian Airlines is the last important A350-800 customer that Airbus needs to switch to another aircraft type before the -800 can be canceled.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
trex8
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 37):
My take is that HA browses the 330neo while talking with Boeing on 788's (though 789s are possible as it is about the same size as the 358...ish)

A 789 is closer in size to a A333 than A332 and if A333 is too big they should be looking at the 788 only. If the A358 was needed for range and not size. A332neo will make sense for any east asia destinations, probably not for europe , but is that really feasible economically non stop from HNL anyway under any circumstance, and they can have seemless crewing across the fleet. Only issue is timing for delivery.
 
777STL
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RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 36):

I've noticed you speak with authority in many threads here, and that needs to stop. Now. You are very wrong and need to stop speaking as if you are in the "know"

I don't care what you do or who you work for, there's really no need to be disrespectful, here. I'm not sure where you get off dictating to others what they can or can't say, but I'd recommend you cease doing so.
PHX based
 
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PW100
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 41):
I don't care what you do or who you work for, there's really no need to be disrespectful, here. I'm not sure where you get off dictating to others what they can or can't say, but I'd recommend you cease doing so.

While I do agree with you, I also agreed with airportugal310 feelings that led him to those words . . .

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
HAL
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:11 am

It's kind of funny to watch all the armchair CEOs at work, so forcefully insisting that HA is going to go Boeing, or wait for the 330NEO, or whatever else comes up.

What I don't see is much real-world information on what is involved in choosing a new aircraft type for an airline.

Do you know what is involved with that decision? The biggest factor is, of course, money. And it's not just the initial cost of the plane I'm talking about, because in the long run operating costs (and revenue) are what will make or break an airline. For example, everyone here says that if Airbus were to give HA a discount on the 359, say, selling it at the same price as the 358 they should snap it up. Sure, the purchase price is the same, but what about the operating cost? I costs more to fly a bigger plane. And in the normal configuration that HA uses, the 359 seats about 60 or 70 more people than the 358 does. That's a lot of extra metal to carry around if the seats can't be filled. Then there's the gas to lift all that extra weight, the added insurance cost, the additional flight attendants required, etc, etc.

So how about Boeing? The cost of adding an entirely new aircraft to a fleet is enormous. At least the 358 would have been a little cheaper since pilot training costs would be less, and some of the spares could have come from the 330 stocks. But if HA were to go with the 788 or 789, everything that went into the introduction of the 330 would have to be repeated again. That includes a separate pilot group, training costs, spares, mountains of FAA mandated paperwork, proving flights, and more. That is a vast amount of money the company wasn't expecting to spend when it first put an order in for the 358.

With all this to decide on, where will the company go? I certainly don't know - that is up to the BOD and the shareholders to decide. Not us employees, and certainly not the people here on this board.

Of course the airline is looking at the 330NEO. It would be a minimal-cost way to go. The question is, would it suffice as a replacement for the longer-legged 358? When could we get it? Is the 358 still going to be made at a later date? If HA ordered the 789, when would they be able to get delivery? Those are questions that only the planners & bean-counters can answer.

And what I hope for most of all, is that whatever decision is made, the airline can keep on its current track of being profitable, successful, well-liked, and a good place to work.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
mham001
Posts: 5681
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:07 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 43):
For example, everyone here says that if Airbus were to give HA a discount on the 359, say, selling it at the same price as the 358 they should snap it up. Sure, the purchase price is the same, but what about the operating cost? I costs more to fly a bigger plane. And in the normal configuration that HA uses, the 359 seats about 60 or 70 more people than the 358 does. That's a lot of extra metal to carry around if the seats can't be filled. Then there's the gas to lift all that extra weight, the added insurance cost, the additional flight attendants required, etc, etc.

There is a lot of that going around here. When Mr Clark says he is looking at the 250-300 seat market, people insist he needs a 787-10 with ~340 seats because they are "free" and it's only 40 more seats than an -8, afterall. Well, no, there are indeed higher operating costs and maybe the route really needs only 250 seats. Carrying 90 empty seats is not "free". But otherwise knowledgeable posters insist otherwise, it must be true.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:13 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 43):
Not us employees, and certainly not the people here on this board.

So, no point in having a discussion thread at all then? If we're not allowed idle speculation as armchair CEOs, you may as well shut down all of ANet.

But good point on the upheaval it could (would?) cause to HA - would there be a resultant penalty on Airbus for the decision? Again, no doubt in the contract. But it may also just be the risk a buyer takes when making a purchase, a case of buyer beware?

This could be a pretty good lesson in fleet planning. Some airlines like to be first off the bat with new types while others hold back. With all the 787 hoo-ha and now so much uncertainty around the 358, you can see why some hold back for a while.
 
HNLPointShoot
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:51 am

Airbus has apparently announced they're cancelling the A358.

I guess it's the 330neo or the 359 if HA is staying with A.

Airbus A350-800 Cancelled (by andrej Jul 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3658
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:12 am

I'm picking HA will now go with the A338, the longer range NEO replacement of the A332.
come visit the south pacific
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5631
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:13 am

You beat me to it Trevor, I guess this thread was well timed, it'll give those who have already stated that HA will get their 358s a bit of humble pie to eat.

Even though HA has stated publicly they do not want the 359 if the 358 was cancelled, now that it is a reality HAs choices are reduced to their second choice of aircraft to fit that role the closest.

Even if HA is given 359s for the same price, would they still be a good deal if HA can not fill the extra seats? I know as the 358 order books swell, that the 359 will ultimately have a larger re-sale value when it's time to upgrade again to the 380s.

I've read that the 359 has the same operating cost as the 358, but there was a real reason HA opted for the 358 when they ordered aircraft for their fleet. I can't help but think that HA knew exactly what they'd need a decade in the future when they ordered the 358s.

I do not think HA will jump to Boeing with their current 332 fleet and the upcoming 321neo that are currently on order.
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Pohakuloa
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:28 am

RE: HA Looking At 330neo

Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:38 am

Respect you HAL, really do. Just wanted to say that out loud for once. I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentance in reply 43.

Regarding that cancellation thread, seems conflicting info for now. Time to get the popcorn out and see what will or won't develop in the coming week(s). Will be interesting for us outsiders and insiders as well to see what will or won't develop.

Respectfully,
Pohakuloa
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!

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