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flynlr
Posts: 213
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:43 am

sitting here wondering if the increase production rate is to get existing orders out , the line shut down to make room
for other types .
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Stitch
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting flynlr (Reply 103):
sitting here wondering if the increase production rate is to get existing orders out , the line shut down to make room for other types .

Boeing does not need the two buildings used for 747 production for any other current or planned (777X) widebody programs.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:59 pm

I am surprised that SQ didn't buy a few. They buy a few of EVERY airplane that comes out! They may not keep them long....like the 757 or the DC-10....A310....
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Stitch
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 105):
I am surprised that SQ didn't buy a few.

Their CEO at the time the model launched - Chew Choon Seng - dismissed the plane as "old technology".

I can only assume his replacement, Goh Choon Phong, feels the same.
 
na
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 96):
Don't take it personally. NA takes every opportunity to remind us that he thinks the 777 is ugly. It's pretty much his sign-off in any post that references the 777 family.

I dont think the 777 is ugly per se. I think the stretched versions of the 777 are aesthecically out of balance, yes, ugly compared to any other big plane. Btw I think the same of the future A350-1000 so its not a Boeing antipathy of any kind. But the original 777 and the F are ok to me, and the 777-8X should be rather fine too. I´ve done some design drawings of the 777-9X for a client, and man, thats a long ungainly tube that´ll make the A380 look pretty.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 106):
Their CEO at the time the model launched - Chew Choon Seng - dismissed the plane as "old technology".

To some part the 77W is older technology.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:20 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 93):
Boeing deliberately killed the Queen of the Skies.

Funny, my first impression was the A380 killed the 747. Of course with the 77W economics over the 747, who could disagree?

[Edited 2014-07-15 09:20:54]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:13 pm

Turkish Airlines is a potential 747-8i customer:
Turkish Airlines And The VLA, Part 953214 (by KarelXWB Jul 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2014-07-16 08:19:08]
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 109):
Turkish Airlines said it’s likely to decide in favor of purchasing superjumbo aircraft such as the Airbus A380 as the fast-expanding carrier seeks to resolve years of debate on the issue by the year’s end.

TK's reputation for quality service has really helped their expansion. Tourism to Turkey is a powerful generator for traffic. Of course, being an American I would love to see them buy the 748i but my gut tells me it will be the A380 or A350 (if they can hold out that long).
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dennys
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:24 am

Queen Of The Skies shall never be another airplane except The 747 .

I praise the Sky for TK or CX to buy them .
 
dennys
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:28 am

So Farnborough has been and no 747-8i has been ordered ..... SAD !
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27045
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 109):
So Farnborough has been and no 747-8i has been ordered ..... SAD !

The 747 Program Head said not to expect a 747-8 order at the air show.
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting gennadius (Reply 30):
LH does seem to like their frames and claims that the frames delivered this year (with the PIP) meet guarantees, and even exceed them in some respects, such as payload/range.

LH would certainly have liked their frames more if all of them had met guarantees, instead of only the last couple of frames delivered.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):
However, no one seems to know whether they will take all (20 ?) of their options ?

I think it is rather obvious that they won't take any of their options.
 
Max Q
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 111):
I think it is rather obvious that they won't take any of their options.

Why is that 'obvious' ?


Have they actually cancelled them ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Unflug
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 112):
Why is that 'obvious' ?

Have they actually cancelled them ?

We don't know. But we do know what they have to replace and what they ordered:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 83):

As to their 20 747-8 purchase options, many of us (myself included) believe those were cancelled and the deposits transferred to the 20 777X LH currently has on order.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:48 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 111):
LH would certainly have liked their frames more if all of them had met guarantees, instead of only the last couple of frames delivered.

All of LH's 747-8's should be meeting their payload-range guarantees thanks to the OEW reductions, MTOW increases and better-than-expected aero. And as they get the GEnx PiP, that will help get the planes to the fuel consumption guarantees and when the MTOW boost and tail tank activation are taken into account, payload-range will be better than guarantee.
 
cabochris
Posts: 57
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:42 am

AC is looking at this in depth. Cargo market makes an interesting case for them. 4 machines would do it. Just need the right deal.
 
travelhound
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:03 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 114):
All of LH's 747-8's should be meeting their payload-range guarantees thanks to the OEW reductions, MTOW increases and better-than-expected aero. And as they get the GEnx PiP, that will help get the planes to the fuel consumption guarantees and when the MTOW boost and tail tank activation are taken into account, payload-range will be better than guarantee.

I thought the OEW reductions and activation of the tail tank was already complete and being delivered on LH's on its latest 748i's. This equates to the 3.5% gain in performance that Boeing talks about.

As for the engines PIP's, I didn't know they had any more in the pipeline!
 
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GE9X
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:25 am

Quoting cabochris (Reply 115):

That... would be unexpected. The 77W already has a very deep belly and more LD3 positions than the 748 (44 vs. 40). The only perspective where this makes sense is to compensate for the range/payload handicap of the high-density 77Ws. Where would AC fly the jumbos? YYZ-PEK/HKG? If anything I thought they'd look to somehow swap the 77Ls for additional 77Ws, either HD or XM...
 
Max Q
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:38 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 113):
We don't know. But we do know what they have to replace and what they ordered:

Then its not even known, let alone 'obvious'
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Unflug
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 114):
And as they get the GEnx PiP, that will help get the planes to the fuel consumption guarantees

.. which might have been more of a concern for LH than payload and range.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 118):
Then its not even known, let alone 'obvious'

It is obvious if you are willing to add 1+1, but you are absolutely free to hope for miracles.

BTW, I'd in fact like to see LH ordering more, but reality is not not adapting to my wishes.
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1767
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:53 am

LH had options for 20 more 748s, I think for further 744 replacement. However, with LH ordering 20 779s as 744 replacement, converting these options is not very likely any more. Some have said the options for the 748s were converted into ones for 779s... Still, I could see LH take a few additional 748s, if only to bridge the gap to 779 deliveries, and/or a nice deal to keep the 747 line going.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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Revelation
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:01 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 116):
I thought the OEW reductions and activation of the tail tank was already complete and being delivered on LH's on its latest 748i's. This equates to the 3.5% gain in performance that Boeing talks about.

Yes, I think the key in his statement is "all" - meaning new birds have the changes, but not the entire fleet.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 116):
As for the engines PIP's, I didn't know they had any more in the pipeline!

I don't think there are more scheduled at this point in time. http://aviationweek.com/awin/genx-2b...pgrade-enters-service-boeing-747-8 is from December and it doesn't mention any, but it does mention aero and MTOW tweaks being called 'Project Ozark'.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4751
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:26 pm

Quoting cabochris (Reply 115):
AC is looking at this in depth. Cargo market makes an interesting case for them. 4 machines would do it. Just need the right deal.

They had orders for the B777F then realised the B77W would do nicely thanks very much. Air Canada is rightly wary of going back to main deck cargo hauling.
 
cabochris
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:17 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 122):

The B77F/B77W deal was some time ago... Yes the B77W has great payload advantages, but not anymore for AC as they go high-density. With eventually all the machines converted to HD, if the right deal comes and the business case plays out, you will see 4 birds flying. Fingers crossed the deal gets done, as this lift is needed at AC, losing share fast on this line item. Plus, Milton is not around anymore, if there was wary, it would have came form him. The business case is there, whether the board goes for it is another topic.
 
jreuschl
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:00 pm

Just make it the only aircraft IR could order, and we'll see those queens flying for decades!  
 
dennys
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 11:19 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:21 pm

Is there a 747-8I ( BBJ ) order for The Sultan Of Bruneï by chance ?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8236
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:06 am

Post MH17 world, I would think Indian Air Force would buy 2-3 B748Is with self protection suites. This also will be the first baby step to privatize AI.
All posts are just opinions.
 
turjo101
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:44 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting delta88 (Reply 18):

IMHO, the next customer of the B748I is gonna be a group of A.netters pooling their money together to buy one for the sake of owning one         

the 747 was the reason many of us became aviation fans. I love the plane, although I am not too familiar with the numbers...Is there any route, where the B748i would have a competitive advantage over A388 or 77W? you never know, we could actually try to use this site and others to crowdfund a single frame airline...

Could happen...  
 
bunumuring
Posts: 2531
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 125):

Is there a 747-8I ( BBJ ) order for The Sultan Of Bruneï by chance ?


Hi mate,
Good question. I have never seen a list of 747-8BBJs and their intended operators. Not that I expect such operators want publicity...
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are getting some, aren't they? I think Qatar and Oman were rumored but I have no idea. At one stage Thailand was mentioned as being interested as well. Brunei would have to be a candidate. The Sultan loves his 747-400 I believe.
Anyone know more?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:45 am

Very recent (June 27, 2014) Aviation Week article on 747-8 improvements and sales prospects etc.
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...747-8-improvements-sales-campaigns
 
dennys
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Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 11:19 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:58 am

Many thanks Viscount24 , this article is very intersting and gives hope !
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:36 am

Quoting discovery1 (Reply 12):
Kind of suprised this hasn't been posted here yet, or at least I havent seen it:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...on/boeing-aims-build-747-8s-faster

So there may be more to 747-8 sales than Boeing just trying to put a positive spin on things.


Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 129):
Very recent (June 27, 2014) Aviation Week article on 747-8 improvements and sales prospects etc.
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...aigns

2 almost identical articles in 2 weeks - the PR department seems to be busy...
 
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Revelation
Posts: 23712
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:31 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 131):
2 almost identical articles in 2 weeks - the PR department seems to be busy...

Agreed, but this thread shows people will read it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
by738
Posts: 3077
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:45 am

Links don't work.
TK have been mumbling about 748 for years and nothings every happened. I doubt that will change. Unless they get an almost giveaway from Boeing I suspect they'd go for 2-4 A380's
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:05 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 133):
Links don't work.

True, for some reason the links have been shortened in the quote. The original links should work:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...on/boeing-aims-build-747-8s-faster

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...747-8-improvements-sales-campaigns
 
racercoup
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:48 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 1):

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Boeing claims

Of course they do. This project moving forward is a dead duck unless they give them away.

The real "dead duck" in this story is the VLA segment. Other than EK orders A380 cancellations out weigh new orders. I'm actually wondering if you may not see a year where every A380 built goes to EK
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 135):
uoting by738 (Reply 1):

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Boeing claims

Of course they do. This project moving forward is a dead duck unless they give them away.

The real "dead duck" in this story is the VLA segment. Other than EK orders A380 cancellations out weigh new orders. I'm actually wondering if you may not see a year where every A380 built goes to EK

The hypocrisies to its max. The EK orders of the A380 are orders, if the B747-8 can not find somebody to order it in numbers that does not reduce the validity of the EK orders.
The A380 has 11 airlines using it with 2 more joining that group this year.
 
racercoup
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:48 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 136):
The hypocrisies to its max. The EK orders of the A380 are orders, if the B747-8 can not find somebody to order it in numbers that does not reduce the validity of the EK orders.
The A380 has 11 airlines using it with 2 more joining that group this year

Exactly where is the hypocrisies? I never discounted EK's orders. It is obvious the EK is extremely happy with the A380. That being said are you implying that Airbus or anyone else is happy with the condition of the order book?

Maybe Boeing should get Enterprise Rent A Car to place a "firm order" for the 748i, to beef up the order book.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27045
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 137):
That being said are (people) implying that Airbus or anyone else is happy with the condition of the order book?

I'm sure they're happier with the EK orders on the books than without them.
 
racercoup
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:48 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 138):
I'm sure they're happier with the EK orders on the books than without them.

Wow, you really think so? Such deep thinking.......
 
phxa340
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 139):

Please show a little more respect to one of this forums most valuable contributors.
 
airnorth
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting racercoup (Reply 139):
Wow, you really think so? Such deep thinking.......

I just don't understand these types of comments. If they are supposed to be a joke, or kidding, then please say so, or use these. The way I read that is a snide remark to a valuable member that provides a lot of great information, please respect that.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:49 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 136):
The hypocrisies to its max. The EK orders of the A380 are orders,

The 70 EK A350 orders were also orders until EK recently cancelled them.

[Edited 2014-07-23 18:21:04]
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27045
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:15 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 142):
The 70 EK A350 orders were also orders until EK recently cancelled them.

True, but unlike the A350, the A380 appears to have a very solid - and very important - position in EK's current and future fleet plans.
 
racercoup
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:48 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 142):
just don't understand these types of comments. If they are supposed to be a joke, or kidding, then please say so, or use these. The way I read that is a snide remark to a valuable member that provides a lot of great information, please respect that.

I would ask that you read my comment...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 138):
Exactly where is the hypocrisies? I never discounted EK's orders. It is obvious the EK is extremely happy with the A380. That being said are you implying that Airbus or anyone else is happy with the condition of the order book?

To which Stich replied.....

Quoting Stitch (Reply 138):
I'm sure they're happier with the EK orders on the books than without them.

That I found to be a snide remark.

Maybe Stich should take a deep breath before becoming unraveled. (that WAS a joke)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:22 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 144):

You do not give up? Hypocritical is when you discount the big order Airbus got for its A380 in 2013 and than calculate that there are more cancellation than orders.
Shall we discount LH if we discuss the orders for the B747-8i?
Shall we discount EK when we talk about orders for the B777-X?

What absolute screaming nonsense!!!!!

And if Airbus is satisfied with the order situation on the A380, I do not know, everybody likes to have more orders than less.

But looking into historical context regarding production rates for a VLA.
The Boeing B747 had over 40 years an average production rate of 33 frames a year and that is counted as an success.
The production rate of the A380 is 30 frames a year 10 % below that.
And if you really take out every order that somebody talks about being iffy, Amedeo 20, Virgin 6, Unknown 10, Austral 2, Kingdom Holding 1 and rest of Qantas 8, that leaves 142 frames a backlog of nearly 5 years at the rate, bringing us to the year 2019. A not too uncomfortable situation.

Looking at the backlog of the B747-8 there are 50 frames, without locking at possible cancellations.
At the 18 a year rate that is not a 3 year backlog and even less at the 21 frames per year production rate people seem to believe here that Boeing wants to move to.

So where is the dead duck?

[Edited 2014-07-24 05:31:18]
 
dennys
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 11:19 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:17 pm

Excuse me guys A380 is Nothing if EK were not Here .
If some of you consider the A340 program as a failure
The A380 shall be a double faillure !!!! But not the 747 !!!!
 
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KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:19 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 146):
Excuse me guys A380 is Nothing if EK were not Here .

Irrelevant hypothesis, because EK is here.

Quoting dennys (Reply 146):
The A380 shall be a double faillure !!!! But not the 747 !!!!

Ah, the Queen of the Sky will never die. I understand.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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gennadius
Posts: 450
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:00 pm

The article is behind a paywall...and it is also like the 12435th time that this type of story has run, but in this case they claim the decision will be before the end of this...something. Year I assume.

Quote:
Turkish Airlines is in the final stages of evaluating an order for either the Airbus A380-800 or Boeing 747-8I, the carrier has confirmed, saying an order is likely to come before the end of the ...
Turkish Airlines in final stages of evaluating A380, 747-8I order
Per ardua, ad astra
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27045
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RE: Next 748 Customer?

Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting gennadius (Reply 148):
The article is behind a paywall...and it is also like the 12435th time that this type of story has run, but in this case they claim the decision will be before the end of this...something. Year I assume.

They said the same thing four years ago - Turkish Airlines Close To A380 - B747-8i Decision (by PanAm_DC10 Oct 12 2010 in Civil Aviation)  

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