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kanban
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:50 pm

Per this skimpy press release, Qatar is rejecting 3 A380's.. it's unclear as to whether it's just frustration and pickinessand they're willing to wait for the necessary corrective action, or whether this is bigger.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/airsho...ways-rejected-first-152403305.html
 
ukoverlander
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:53 pm

Al Baker disappointed........say not so?

Hard to imagine.
 
mffoda
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:55 pm

He also said that he was not yet ready to finalise an order for 50 Boeing 777X in that article...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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Miami
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):
Rejects

Rejecting or rejects can be used in so many different ways. Can someone explain?

Thanks!
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
Someone83
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:57 pm

I suspect the meaning of rejected here is that they rejected the delivery at the current state of the aircraft, thus Airbus is now fixing the aircraft as the latest news QR will take delivery after the summer. Don't think it is rejected in the sense we saw with some of the early 747-8Fs
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:57 pm

It's not unusual to reject an aircraft after the first customer flight. Once resolved, they will take the aircraft.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
stylo777
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:58 pm

it is actually quite normal for airlines to reject new types in their fleets. the very first deliveries will always set the standards for all following frames. in this case the only difference to the once like EK, LH, SQ, etc. is that Mr. Al Baker is in the game...      
 
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Stitch
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
Rejecting or rejects can be used in so many different ways. Can someone explain?

I am going to hazard (an educated) guess that QR is not willing to accept the three airframes in the state they are in and is requiring Airbus to refurbish the airframes to a standard QR finds acceptable before they take delivery and hand over the final check. There have been reports of installation and/or quality issues with the special carpet used in the First Class cabin.

QR did the same with their first 787-8, complaining that after opening the airplane to the press at Farnborough in 2012 that the interior was damaged. Boeing repaired the damage and QR then took delivery.

What this does not seem to be is QR deciding to not take up (NTU) the first three frames.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):


Per this skimpy press release, Qatar is rejecting 3 A380's.. it's unclear as to whether
it's just frustration and pickinessand they're willing to wait for the necessary corrective
action, or whether this is bigger.


I think It is related to the cabin interior:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/qatar-...eral-weeks-182948349--finance.html

There have also been problems with the new airport in Doha which have made QR to delay
the deliveries of their A380s:
A380 Production Thread Part 16 #139 (by SA7700 Mar 5 2014 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2014-07-14 11:07:56]
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
migair54
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:17 pm

they didn´t reject, they delay the acceptance. we were expecting this becuase they have been delaying the first A380 until October now, and they have delayed 2 or 3 times.

it´s funny to see how Airbus state that it is delayed due to some fine-tuning elements, but the fine tuning can take up to 4 or 5 months, so it must be quite a big and serious issue.
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 2):
He also said that he was not yet ready to finalise an order for 50 Boeing 777X in that article...

I think Qatar Airways has bigger issues on their mind for the moment, like getting the new Doha airport fully operational and introducing the A350 in the fleet. The 777X EIS is still 6 years away, enough time to firm it up.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
ba319-131
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:23 pm

I think the thread title should be changed, rather misleading.
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roseflyer
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):


Per this skimpy press release, Qatar is rejecting 3 A380's.. it's unclear as to whether it's just frustration and pickinessand they're willing to wait for the necessary corrective action, or whether this is bigger.

The airline delivery process includes the manufacturer having one or a series of test flights and then inviting the airline to conduct another test flight and thoroughly inspect the airplane and all the paperwork from the build process. All defects found during manufacturing are reported and submitted to the airline when it takes delivery of the airplane. Usually a number from 500-1000 are common, but it might be higher with an A380. Usually simple things like a hole needed to be redrilled, or something simple, but sometimes there are more extensive repairs or modifications to the airplane required during the manufacturing process.

In addition to the final acceptance process at time of delivery, airlines are able to observe earlier stages in production. While not necessarily in the factory, an airline will usually have one or two people responsible for reviewing the manufacturing process. Sometimes they delegate this to another company or Airbus itself, but they do inspect the airplane. Sometimes there are repairs that need to be made that will have an impact on the airplane later on in its life. For example if someone drilled a hole in the incorrect spot, the rework required during production may use up any margin in that part that the airline depends upon if they need to repair it. An airline can demand that the part be replaced or repaired according to what their engineering department thinks is best.

The A380 is still relatively young in its production life, so it doesn't surprise me that there could be a few items that
caught a very detail oriented airline like Qatar's attention. Qatar has high standards as well all know. There are airlines that will force the manufacturer to replace seat covers over a simple ink stain, so it is impossible to know what Qatar's reasons are.

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 12):
I think the thread title should be changed, rather misleading.

It's actually a commonly accepted term in the industry. Rejection in this case just means that Airbus has to rework some items. I am sure it will work out fine. Airlines do this all the time, but the difference with Qatar is that they like to turn everything they can into a publicity statement.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 14):
While not necessarily in the factory, an airline will usually have one or two people responsible for reviewing the manufacturing process.

In addition, EK and QR have their own office in Seattle and Toulouse.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
jetblue1965
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:47 pm

It's obvious that AB was shocked when he saw what Etihad can do with their A380s, so they're scrambling a last minute response.

Instead of blaming Airbus, he should blame himself for not having a plan B against the horror unleashed by EY upon him
 
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kanban
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
Instead of blaming Airbus, he should blame himself for not having a plan B against the horror unleashed by EY upon him

even for him, if the problem was his he would grin and bare it, so to be public about it implies other issues. Now this could be that Airbus accepted design change requests as being do-able prior to committed delivery and found themselves unable to comply.

I think it is more telling that they pulled the plane from the Farnborough Airshow.
 
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frigatebird
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:59 pm

QR has been very picky when it comes to delivery acceptance, it takes months before they accept delivery of their 787s as well.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
It's obvious that AB was shocked when he saw what Etihad can do with their A380s, so they're scrambling a last minute response.

Instead of blaming Airbus, he should blame himself for not having a plan B against the horror unleashed by EY upon him

I really hope this is not true. Like with the 787s, QR is just extremely picky. If it is really a change in cabin product they want, this would be extremely unprofessional. However, with QR you can expect anything:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
QR did the same with their first 787-8, complaining that after opening the airplane to the press at Farnborough in 2012 that the interior was damaged.

Wasn't QR themselves who invited the press in?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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Stitch
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18):
Wasn't QR themselves who invited the press in?

Yes, they did. Which would make it ironic if we weren't talking about AAB.  
 
dtw2hyd
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:21 pm

I think HE AAB can start customer acceptance services to other airlines. Have offices at TLS,PAE and CHS.
All posts are just opinions.
 
jetblue1965
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18):

I really hope this is not true. Like with the 787s, QR is just extremely picky. If it is really a change in cabin product they want, this would be extremely unprofessional. However, with QR you can expect anything:

Airbus delivers tons of A380s to customers. If they're having QA and QC issues, EK should be the first one complaining.

It's just too much of a coincidence that only QR is making a scene, and QR is doing it RIGHT after the EY debut.

And I don't believe the other A380 customers have any less stringent standards than QR does. Afterall, it's the flagship plane for most of their customers.
 
karadion
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:24 pm

Qatar's 787's were being assembled at Charleston and they kept rejecting them constantly which kept pushing back the schedule on other airframes constantly. Boeing then switched the post-Final Assembly process over to Everett from Charleston even with Qatar's constant rejections. I'm guessing Boeing sees that the larger work force in PS will help reduce the turnaround time between rejection and ready to deliver.
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 10):
it´s funny to see how Airbus state that it is delayed due to some fine-tuning elements, but the fine tuning can take up to 4 or 5 months, so it must be quite a big and serious issue.

For all other A380 operators, cabin issues after the customer acceptance flight were resolved within a week. Delaying the first delivery by some 4 months has nothing do to with cabin issues IMO, something else is going on.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Stitch
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
For all other A380 operators, cabin issues after the customer acceptance flight were resolved within a week. Delaying the first delivery by some 4 months has nothing do to with cabin issues IMO, something else is going on.

All of QR's A380s have the wing fix, do they not? I recall the airline saying they wanted to defer deliveries until the fix could be incorporated at TLS so they would not need to take the frames out of service for the fix.
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
All of QR's A380s have the wing fix, do they not?

Indeed they have.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
I recall the airline saying they wanted to defer deliveries until the fix could be incorporated at TLS so they would not need to take the frames out of service for the fix.

The fix was incorporated in Broughton, the QR A380s are in fact the first one with the new wing design straight out of the wing factory.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mham001
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:36 pm

Maybe he isn't quite ready to pay for them?
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
Maybe he isn't quite ready to pay for them?

Or maybe the new Doha airport isn't ready yet. We don't know.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
andrej
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 6):
t is actually quite normal for airlines to reject new types in their fleets. the very first deliveries will always set the standards for all following frames.

Even Lufthansa refused to accept B748 to their fleet and Boeing did all to appease an important customer. What makes this slightly different is that Al Baker is know to bitch and moan.   But at the end of the day, Qatar is a client and it has all the right to accept new plane to their desired standards. So hopefully it is related to the quality standards rather than some strategy.
 
airbazar
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
For all other A380 operators, cabin issues after the customer acceptance flight were resolved within a week. Delaying the first delivery by some 4 months has nothing do to with cabin issues IMO, something else is going on.

Sounds to me like QR is not yet ready to operate the A380. To me that's the most logical scenario. Rather than defer the delivery and pay a penalty, they find something to nitpick and delay the delivery.
 
Sooner787
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:52 pm

There was a thread awhile back that AAB threatened to cancel his Airbus orders

if he didn't get certain new routes into the EUR?

I wonder if these 2 issues might be related?   
 
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crimsonchin
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:59 pm

I thought it was something that had to do with the plane's carpeting?
 
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KarelXWB
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Qatar Rejects Delivery of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 31):
I thought it was something that had to do with the plane's carpeting?

That's what they keep saying, the latest delay to October makes it a bit harder to believe.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Flighty
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
Sounds to me like QR is not yet ready to operate the A380. To me that's the most logical scenario.

Agreed unless proven otherwise.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
The fix was incorporated in Broughton, the QR A380s are in fact the first one with the new wing design straight out of the wing factory.

Fantastic info. It is a treat to know how this program is getting sorted out.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:20 pm

The aircraft made an European promotion flight on April 9 (see screenshot below). There was also a chase plane to make some photos. Airbus made another three test flights before starting the customer acceptance flight on May 15.

The cabin installation and the test flights were done together with QR staff, that's a normal procedure. Everything was looking fine, the rejection of the aircraft came as a surprise.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/24433b5.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Maersk737
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 31):I thought it was something that had to do with the plane's carpeting?

That's what they keep saying, the latest delay to October makes it a bit harder to believe.

If QR wants hand knitted wool carpets? Four months is nothing  

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
mffoda
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:33 pm

I wonder if the QR issue is related to the door cracks that were reported recently?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 35):
If QR wants hand knitted wool carpets? Four months is nothing

Commercial grade silk carpet!! Looks like an exit clause.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Update from The Wall Street Journal:

Quote:
Airbus said Qatar's A380 had been delayed as the airline had been very "demanding" in its specifications. The carrier found fault in the texturing of the paint, the interior cabin decor foils, which are similar to wallpaper, and the jet's non-textile floors, which are prevalent in the galley area. Those large galley structures now have to be removed to lay new flooring in a time-consuming process.

"It's a bit of a job because it has to be done carefully," said Tom Williams, executive vice president of programs at Airbus. The plane maker is checking that Qatar's A350s also meet these exacting requirements, he said. Qatar is the first customer for the A350 and could hold the key to Airbus delivering the first planes as promised this year.

http://tinyurl.com/opkp8kg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
wzafar
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:38 pm

Interesting interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek5lV6bwQH0

I don't think its the new airport that is causing the issues. He seems pretty confident the issue is with Airbus and the plane. but then again, it's AAB
 
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kanban
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:32 pm

Quoting wzafar (Reply 37):
Interesting interview:

love the comb over..
 
mrcomet
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Sounds to me like QR is not yet ready to operate the A380. To me that's the most logical scenario. Rather than defer the delivery and pay a penalty, they find something to nitpick and delay the delivery.

That's my hunch, too. Or maybe they are in a cash crunch since they pay on delivery. A few delays solves the problem.
The dude abides
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting wzafar (Reply 37):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek5lV6bwQH0

Do they not get Crest Whitening toothpaste in Qatar  
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
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kanban
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 33):
If QR wants hand knitted wool carpets?

whether hand knotted or not, wool is preferred for it's flammability resistance and self extinguishing characteristics..

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
Update from The Wall Street Journal:

This makes sense except the decorative flooring generally does not go under a galley.. and pulling it all up could tear the water barrier membrane.

those interior panel issues are real enough, some customers pull panels from different sections and look for shading differences, top to bottom continuity, or silk screening variances.

but those desiring to pursue ulterior motives by the airline will prattle on.
 
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par13del
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 19):
Airbus delivers tons of A380s to customers. If they're having QA and QC issues, EK should be the first one complaining
Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 19):
And I don't believe the other A380 customers have any less stringent standards than QR does. Afterall, it's the flagship plane for most of their customers.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):

Maybe he isn't quite ready to pay for them?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
Or maybe the new Doha airport isn't ready yet. We don't know.

As with all things, could we follow the money, whoever is paying for the re-work is responsible.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:26 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 42):
As with all things, could we follow the money, whoever is paying for the re-work is responsible.

Not necessarily, the customer is always right even when he's wrong when it comes to multimillion dollar checks.

Quoting kanban (Reply 41):
but those desiring to pursue ulterior motives by the airline will prattle on.

Sure they will because it does happen for many different reasons.

QTR is a hard customer to satisfy but they're not the only one. What looks good on the ground sometimes doesn't work in flight especially when it comes to "new" carpets, galley matts and wall coverings. Some customers don't subscribe to the "stick a pin in it and squeeze the air out", it's good theory.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
It's obvious that AB was shocked when he saw what Etihad can do with their A380s, so they're scrambling a last minute response.

Instead of blaming Airbus, he should blame himself for not having a plan B against the horror unleashed by EY upon him

Haha! I thought exactly the same thing!
The thing is, really, money buys a lot of things. Taste is not one of them..
 
andrej
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:41 am

According to Al Baker, 'problems' with A380 delivery are much bigger than interior glitch, but declined to be more specific. And Leahy just recently stated that a lot of the delay is related to 'cosmetics'. So the truth is somewhere in between.

It's all about the PR and good negotiations skills.   
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:44 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 42):

Sadly Airbus will pick up the bill for any F retrofit just to keep AAB from canceling his A350 order, regardless of who's right or who's wrong

AAB should get a PHD for his strong arm tactics, to put it lightly
 
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seahawk
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:35 am

 
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seahawk
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:37 am

Considering the WSJ interview they are slamming Boeing and Airbus, I think they can not grow as fast as planed and are now blaming the plane makers, the EU or whomever is at hand for the problems.

[Edited 2014-07-15 03:38:55]
 
airbazar
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RE: Qatar Rejects Delivery Of 3 A380

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:14 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 43):
QTR is a hard customer to satisfy but they're not the only one. What looks good on the ground sometimes doesn't work in flight especially when it comes to "new" carpets, galley matts and wall coverings. Some customers don't subscribe to the "stick a pin in it and squeeze the air out", it's good theory.

Agree but why wait until delivery to point those out and not a month or 2 ago, as described by KarelXWB in reply 32?

"The cabin installation and the test flights were done together with QR staff, that's a normal procedure. Everything was looking fine, the rejection of the aircraft came as a surprise."

Quoting seahawk (Reply 48):
Considering the WSJ interview they are slamming Boeing and Airbus, I think they can not grow as fast as planed and are now blaming the plane makers, the EU or whomever is at hand for the problems

  
As I've always stated, and recently reiterated in a different thread: IMO there isn't enough room for 3 large ME carriers. In fact I'm not sure that there will be enough room for 2 considering how big EK is becoming.

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