Airbus Launches A330NEO - Part 2

EK413 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:20 am

Hi All,

The previous discussion had 260+ response's & slow to load for users so Part 2 has been created to continue the conversation.

The previous thread can be found here:

Airbus Launches A330NEO (by andrej Jul 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the journey!

EK413

YYZatcboy · Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:40 am

Repost from the last thread...

This is really exciting news. Love the 330. I wonder if this might be something that WS would be looking at? A330 CEO's and then in a few years lease some 338s.

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:51 am

From the previous thread:

Quote:
Airbus expects the A339 to lease out at USD 1.05M per month, while the 789 leases out for USD 1.25M per month. So effectively, we are looking at an effectively 16% lower price, far from the nominally similar list prices.

That's significant cheaper than the 787 but also more expensive than a current A330, which you can get for 800.000 to 900.000 per month.

http://leehamnews.com/2013/08/04/air...o-information-about-a330a350-lite/

speedbored · Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:43 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
From the previous thread:

Quote:
Airbus expects the A339 to lease out at USD 1.05M per month, while the 789 leases out for USD 1.25M per month. So effectively, we are looking at an effectively 16% lower price, far from the nominally similar list prices.

That's significant cheaper than the 787 but also more expensive than a current A330, which you can get for 800.000 to 900.000 per month.

It is worth pointing out that comparing lease rates does not necessarily provide an accurate reflection of the relative cash purchase prices. Residual values will also impact lease rates and I suspect that the 339 will have a significantly lower RV than the 787.

Oykie · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:16 am

This is great news. I am sure that Airbus will sell many A330neo as for some airlines the A350 might be to much of an airplane. As I have said in other threads, I believe the A330neo could work well for SK and AY.

In Part 1 of this thread some has mentioned the cabin interior lacking a complete overhaul. I am sure this has to do with the short time to EIS. Airbus also kept the improvements of the A320neo to a minimum to EIS in time. According to this article the A320neo will get a cabin update and other updates from 2019. If the A330neo sells as expected, I am sure we will see incremental upgrades to the interior as well as MTOW increase.

scbriml · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:34 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
In Part 1 of this thread some has mentioned the cabin interior lacking a complete overhaul.

I'm pretty sure in the video they said the interior would be the same as the A350.

Ab345 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:44 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):

This is the AIrbus proposed generic cabin I assume. Airlines will go for their own look

scbriml · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:49 am

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 6):
Airlines will go for their own look

Yes, but the cabin before seats are installed will be the same as the A350 - same bins, same lighting, etc.

RickNRoll · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
If the A330neo sells as expected, I am sure we will see incremental upgrades to the interior as well as MTOW increase.

As a mature frame which has aready had many MTOW increases, is there much room for more?

Maersk737 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:57 am

Maybe the interior looks a little dull.....I know I have said this before, Mama Mia, she looks great from the outside

Cheers

Peter

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:57 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 8):
As a mature frame which has aready had many MTOW increases, is there much room for more?

I believe the landing gear is nearing its limit, although 250 tons should be achievable.

aviationaware · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:05 am

Guys, please don't forget that those images are only preliminary pictures to illustrate press releases.

The A330neo still has a lot of time left until final configuration, we have very little infos as of yet and there might still something be happening.

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:06 am

And the 2nd A330neo customer is CIT Aerospace for 15 jets.

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:30 am

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 13):
and 5 A321
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...15-a330neo-and-5-a321ceo-aircraft/

SMC order 110 A320neo and 5 A320
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...l-orders-115-a320-family-aircraft/

BOC Aviation with 36 A320 and 7 A320neo
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...dditional-43-a320-family-aircraft/

Those belong in Farnborough Air Show 2014 - Airbus Orders (by KarelXWB Jul 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

EK413 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:33 am

Quick summary from A330NEO Discussion Part 1...

* A330-800NEO & A330-900NEO, powered by RR engines (Trent 7000) with deliveries starting in 4Q17. The A330NEO cuts fuel consumption by 14% per seat & range increased by 400NM.
* Airbus expects to sell 1000 A33NEO over 20 years. Expects to sell A330 in 2030 & Airbus expects three digit A330NEO orders volume at the show.
* Electronic bleed system on RR7000 rather than pneumatic.
* A330NEO comes with 4% aerodynamic improvements due to 3.7 meter increase in wing modifications.
* MTOW stays at 242t A338 range is 7450nm & A339 range is 6200nm.
* Air Lease Corp signs MOU for 25 x A330NEO order valued at USD 6.9B.

Enjoy the journey

EK413

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:39 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
And the 2nd A330neo customer is CIT Aerospace for 15 jets.

Avolon is becoming the 3rd customer with an order for 15 A330neo jets.

ZEDZAG · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:41 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
Electronic bleed system on RR7000 rather than pneumatic

Does anyone have any clue about how is this sistem envisioned, cause if systems are electrical, the word bleed is superfluous

speedbored · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:54 am

Quoting ZEDZAG (Reply 17):
Does anyone have any clue about how is this sistem envisioned, cause if systems are electrical, the word bleed is superfluous

It just means that the bleed-air system will be electronically controlled instead of pneumatically controlled as it is on the T700.

This will provide more accurate regulation of the amount of air that is allowed to bleed out of the engine so that only exactly what is needed will be taken out. Basically, it will be almost exactly the same system as on the A380.

Burkhard · Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:59 am

Looking at the drawings in the first part - I cannot resist to comment that this beauty would still gain with 4 GTF instead of 2 Trent 7000...

but I'm afraid this will never be built.

Oykie · Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
I'm pretty sure in the video they said the interior would be the same as the A350.

I hope you are right. However in the pictures it looks less ambitious, than the A350. That being said it looks nice.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 8):
As a mature frame which has aready had many MTOW increases, is there much room for more?

As KarelXWB says they can probably get up to 250T with current landing gears. I doubt Airbus will add more wheels to the landing gear, but it has been done on the A340 to increase MTOW to 275T.

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 9):
Maybe the interior looks a little dull.....I know I have said this before, Mama Mia, she looks great from the outside

She is a looker

Aither · Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:05 am

I think many of these A330neo will replace single aisle aicraft : LCCs in Asia in particular need a bigger aircraft on the high density routes and also fly more distant markets. Yet they don't need a transpacific and more expensive widebody. The A330 already started to do the job, the neo version should further boost that trend. We could also see more widebody aircraft flying the domestic US market after 2 decades of declining WB market shares.

tommy1808 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:14 am

From the other thead

Quoting MSPNWA :
And as capacity grows, the less of a difference 10-20 seats makes in the economic analysis. Plus, and most importantly, nothing is stopping airlines from going to 9-abreast on the A330. High-density configurations already see this.

The same Airlines would also chose 10 seats per Row on an A350 and hence restore the Seat-Count difference between the two types. Both configurations use the same 16.7" seat.

best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2014-07-15 04:16:06]

BlueSky1976 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19):
Looking at the drawings in the first part - I cannot resist to comment that this beauty would still gain with 4 GTF instead of 2 Trent 7000...

Ironically, the A340 was designed around the original GTF engine, then called SuperFan.

Stitch · Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 8):
As a mature frame which has aready had many MTOW increases, is there much room for more?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
I believe the landing gear is nearing its limit, although 250 tons should be achievable.

As I recall, Airbus was indeed considering a 250,000kg TOW for the A330 family.

RayChuang · Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:08 pm

I think it's very likely both DL and HA will place orders for the A330-800neo. DL will buy them for transpacific and transatlantic flights, and HA to replace the cancelled A350XWB-800 order and to replace the rest of the 767-300ER fleet.

lightsaber · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:06 pm

Well... I have a bit of crow to eat. Oh, I changed my tune for a few months, but for years I was saying this wouldn't happen. Kudos to RR. It is quite the coup to have this exclusive.

Comments:
1. I'm shocked at the timeline. RR has a challenge ahead and flight testing will be 'aggressive.' But if pulled off... amazing.
2. Less on the wing than I thought, but that has to do with timeline.
3. I expect a future MTOW increase. Again, I think the EIS timeline prevented an increase in the near term.
4. Noise. This plane will be significantly quieter than the current A332/A333.
5. Bye bye A358. This is a better fit for HA and that will be the end of that.
6. Less range than I expected. But then again I expected a higher MTOW...

From the other thread:

Quote:

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 180):
Now that the "A330NEO becoming more likely" thread has been locked; I just wanted to belatedly pay tribute to "Astuteman"/ "KarelXWB"/ "Lightsaber"/ "Stitch"/ Zeke" and all the other learned members who contributed to this wonderful set of threads.

+1

Thank you.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 24):
I think it's very likely both DL and HA will place orders for the A330-800neo.

Agreed. Very likely.

Ab345 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:17 pm

So is this shaping up as a satisfying launch? More or less than you guys here predicted?

I personally had the AirAsiaX as a sure bet and maybe a second airline but not the 3 lessors. ALC was close to my list but not that sure

mjoelnir · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
1. I'm shocked at the timeline. RR has a challenge ahead and flight testing will be 'aggressive.' But if pulled off... amazing.

I assume that RR has already been working on this engine and they are further along than expected.

Aviaponcho · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:40 pm

Lightsaber,

The most disappointing for me and for now is the cabin ... not a lot of change, specially for 9 abreast... 1 or 2 " more with work on insulation, would have been welcome
Let's see in the future...

No composite fan also...

Another factor is the +10 seats for the A330-900 (and +6 seats), that's another 50-100 Nm lost vs the old A330

By the way, where can I found the explanation of the "airbus range method" and the "boeing range method ?"

Going from a 6100Nm 242t A330-300 @300PAx to a 6200 Nm 242t A330-900 @310PAx is confusing at first, but fits well with the +4 t OEW and the + 1 t payload (circa one hour of fuel)

bevisisback · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:48 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
Bye bye A358. This is a better fit for HA and that will be the end of that.

I thought HA wanted the A358 for the range, no? Guaranteed to be a hit with the US majors though.

[Edited 2014-07-15 07:49:16]

Stitch · Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 26):
So is this shaping up as a satisfying launch? More or less than you guys here predicted?

Over 100 frames, so that's a good start.

I'm interested to see whom the lessors have lined up as customers (unless they're speculatively leasing).

[Edited 2014-07-15 07:51:35]

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:06 pm

Cathay Pacific will take a good look on the A330neo.

http://twitter.com/e_russell/status/489046081075175424

BobMUC · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 24):
I think it's very likely both DL and HA will place orders for the A330-800neo.

My feeling is, that DL is a good candidate to take at least some for the remaining A330ceo slots. Good airplane for an attractive price, especially in a combined order with A330neo.

deltaflyertoo · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:19 pm

Supposedly Lufthansa is interested too (although they have yet to order). I would suspect the A330NEO would do well out on the Munich to west coast flights.

hooverman · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:19 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 31):
Cathay Pacific will take a good look on the A330neo.

Isn't Cathay the largest A330 operator?

Stitch · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 31):
Cathay Pacific will take a good look on the A330neo.

Seems a logical choice to replace their existing A330-300s.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 33):
Supposedly Lufthansa is interested too (although they have yet to order). I would suspect the A330NEO would do well out on the Munich to west coast flights.

I think they'll go with the A350-900 for that role (they have enough options).

They passed on the 787-10 as it didn't have the range to handle their entire network and the 787-10 should have the legs on the A330-900.

aviationaware · Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 33):

Supposedly Lufthansa is interested too (although they have yet to order). I would suspect the A330NEO would do well out on the Munich to west coast flights.

It's probably less for Lufthansa, but it is a nice thing to look at for some of the subsidiaries. Austrian Airlines will be needing new aircraft one of these years and Swiss also still has some of those A340s. Their A333s are still quite new so I don't think they will be replaced anytime soon.

XT6Wagon · Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
6. Less range than I expected. But then again I expected a higher MTOW...

Makes me wonder at how much wieght the A330NEO will gain. Can't be too much but enough that its clearly offloading some fuel in the passenger only payload situation.

ikramerica · Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:25 pm

How does the A330neo compare to the original A350 mk1?

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 33):

LH Group will be big customers for this bird. The 900 will be a good A343/6 replacement on USA routes and has India/Africa range. Combine with a 779 fleet for longer range and the vlas for high capacity.

speedbored · Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 37):
Makes me wonder at how much wieght the A330NEO will gain.

Looking at the launch presentation slides, and comparing to current spec, it looks like:
A330-200 (242t version) -> A330-800
MLW - increased by 6t (180 -> 186)
MZFW - increased by 4t (168 -> 172)

A330-300 (242t version) -> A330-900
MLW - increased by 6t (185 -> 191)
MZFW - increased by 4t (173 -> 177)

So it looks like the weight gain could be as much as 4t.

[Edited 2014-07-15 09:32:43]

[Edited 2014-07-15 09:36:15]

holzmann · Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 38):

So you're saying zero chance for the 789/781 to see service within the DLH group?

mffoda · Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:42 pm

If anyone is interested, aspire aviation ran some initial numbers on the reported specs.

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2014/0...a330neo-from-a-weight-perspective/

tommy1808 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
Over 100 frames, so that's a good start.

Doesn't make it the best WB start ever?

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2014-07-15 10:04:23]

Stitch · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 38):
How does the A330neo compare to the original A350 mk1?

A330-800 Length: 58.82m
A350-800 Length: 58.8m

A330-900 Length: 63.69m
A350-900 Length: 65.2m

A330-800 Cargo: 26 LD3 positions
A350-800 Cargo: 26 LD3 positions

A330-900 Cargo: 32 LD3 positions
A350-900 Cargo: 34 LD3 positions

A330-800 Cabin Area: 237.6m2
A350-800 Cabin Area: ~241m2

A330-900 Cabin Area: 265.8m2
A350-900 Cabin Area: ~276m2

A330neo Wing Span: 64m
A350 Wing Span: 61.1m

A330neo Wing Area: TBD
A350 Wing Area: 362m2

A330-800 MTOW: 242t
A350-800 MTOW: 245t

A330-900 MTOW: 242t
A350-900 MTOW: 245t

A330-800 MZFW: 172t
A350-800 MZFW: 170t

A330-900 MZFW: 177t
A350-900 MZFW: 181t

A330-800 MLW: 186t
A350-800 MLW: 182t

A330-900 MLW: 191t
A350-900 MLW: 193t

A330-800 Fuel Capacity: 139,100 liters
A350-800 Fuel Capacity: 139,100 liters

A330-900 Fuel Capacity: 139,100 liters
A350-900 Fuel Capacity: 139,100 liters

[Edited 2014-07-15 10:09:58]

EPA001 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
A330neo Wing Span: 60.3m

Great summary Stitch. But the A330-neo wingspan will be 64.0 meters.

Stitch · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 42):
Doesn't make it the best WB start ever?

If they're all firm orders (so not MoUs / LoIs / Commitments), it might be.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):
Great summary Stitch. But the A330-neo wingspan will be 64.0 meters.

Yeah, just saw the new data so was updating.

mjoelnir · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):

All of the 105 commitments are MOU/LOI, no firm orders up to now.

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 38):
How does the A330neo compare to the original A350 mk1?

Here's the A350 Mk 1:

LH707330 · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:22 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):
Looking at the drawings in the first part - I cannot resist to comment that this beauty would still gain with 4 GTF instead of 2 Trent 7000...

but I'm afraid this will never be built.

It would be the ultimate irony to see the "original" A340 concept fly 30 years after the concept launch. I too wonder what a PW1135G-JM-powered A340 would look like. Maybe I'll build a model of one using aftermarket resin parts as a fancy of flight configuration.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 33):
Supposedly Lufthansa is interested too (although they have yet to order). I would suspect the A330NEO would do well out on the Munich to west coast flights.

I read an article a while ago where they said they weren't too thrilled with the concept, but they may change their tune. The 339 would be a drop-in replacement for the 343s leaving the fleet, allowing them to keep the training mostly the same.

lightsaber · Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 27):
I assume that RR has already been working on this engine and they are further along than expected.

I would assume so too...

Quoting bevisisback (Reply 29):
I thought HA wanted the A358 for the range, no? Guaranteed to be a hit with the US majors though.

Yes. I expect them to buy a higher MTOW A338.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 37):
Makes me wonder at how much wieght the A330NEO will gain.

Others noted in the prior thread the gear is good to 250T MTOW.

Lightsaber

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