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Triple7Lr
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Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:12 pm

According to Reuters, Airbus COO John Leahy thinks delta will order A330NEO. Would be awesome if it happened.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...airbus-delta-idUKKBN0FK20O20140715

How will they use them?
 
M1chl
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:28 pm

Since the time, when A330N thread start popping out, there always has been discussion about Delta buying lots of these aircraft. I am not exactly sure why would that be, because to my knowledge they buying cheaper, older models of aircrafts. There is a chance for some killer deal for Delta from Airbus or the sense that are going to order A330N coming from the fact, they have A330C?

I would like someone to help me figured this out, I am kinda rookie, so sorry if I am talking nonsense. Just by observation of forums here, it somewhat doesn't make a lot of sense, that Delta going to buy this new aircraft. Wouldn't cheaper 787s make more sense to them?
 
strfyr51
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:33 pm

John is supposed to BE optimistic But! He should leave the negotiations "behind the door" because Boeing might scalp him in the process with their Combination Pricing
Airbus HAS no direct replacement for the 747-451. And it's CERTAINLY not going to be a combination of the A330-900 neo and the A350-1000 because they're really too close in capacity.
The A330-900 is bigger. than the B767-332's and the A350-1000 is not big enough for the 747-400's.
However?? The B787-900 and the B767-300 are almost direct replacements and the B777-9 is an upgrade in range and performance to the B747-451's. Delta will have no short falls in either category.
It only depends on what they want and are willing to order. But Delta won't be doing it in Public..
I can bet you that.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2):
He should leave the negotiations "behind the door"

   It's pretty much never a good thing to publicly express confidence that you've earned a specific order before it's in the bag.

Quoting M1chl (Reply 1):
I am not exactly sure why would that be

Delta's entire fleet is a big bet that fuel cost will stay low. They prioritize cheaper aircraft acquisition and ownership prices, often at the expense of some fuel cost. The whole business case for the A330neo is based on it having fuel burn "almost" as good as the 787's, but with a much lower price. Thus an A330neo order from Delta would be consistent with their general strategy.

That said, I think there's plenty of room for Boeing to win this order. The 787-10's capacity will be a plus on the Boeing side, as will the 787-9's range; the A330-900's range would be a limiting factor for the airline, and would probably force them to split an Airbus order between A330s and A350s.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2):
Airbus HAS no direct replacement for the 747-451.

In the RFP DL has not asked for a direct replacement, as in a 1-for-1 passenger numbers. They require the same range (if not more) but are now focusing on a point to point strategy in Asia with smaller aircraft, rather than utilising their NRT to hub from US cities to spoke to points within Asia.

The airline's RFP is for replacement of the 744 fleet and partial replacement of the 763 fleet, there is still the remainder of the 763 fleet and those of the 764, A332 to replace, plus eventually the 77L and A333 - delivery of the NW ordered 788's has been deferred as DL haggles for a better price for subsequent orders which the A330NEO may scupper.
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lucky777
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:16 pm

Delta has stated time and again that they aren't interested in paper airplanes, which the A330NEO still is at this juncture. Not saying it won't happen, of course....just that they've made it known they're not fond of the idea.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):
Delta has stated time and again that they aren't interested in paper airplanes, which the A330NEO still is at this juncture.

The neo is hardly a paper plane. Aside from the new engines, it's pretty much a plane that's been around for years, with winglets added.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):

I agree with you that Delta aren't interested in 'paper planes', however Delta was showing interest in an A330neo back in March:

Quote:
"I hope they (Airbus) do offer an A330NEO," Delta CEO Richard Anderson told Aviation Week in Atlanta. "There is a huge need for a small widebody. We really need Airbus to step up and re-engine."
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...sue-major-widebody-replacement-rfp

Quoting speedbored (Reply 6):
The neo is hardly a paper plane. Aside from the new engines, it's pretty much a plane that's been around for years, with winglets added.

  
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 6):
The neo is hardly a paper plane. Aside from the new engines, it's pretty much a plane that's been around for years, with winglets added.

So is the 777 and Anderson used the paper plane remark in remarks about the 777 revamp. So, I think that is what lucky777 was referring to.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2):
He should leave the negotiations "behind the door" because Boeing might scalp him in the process with their Combination Pricing
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
  It's pretty much never a good thing to publicly express confidence that you've earned a specific order before it's in the bag.

Call me crazy, but I am pretty confident that Leahy knows what he is doing. He's managed to sell an aircraft or two in his time.  
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 8):
So is the 777 and Anderson used the paper plane remark in remarks about the 777 revamp. So, I think that is what lucky777 was referring to.

Exactly.

Delta was basically saying they wouldn't commit to an aircraft that was still essentially on the drawing boards and the 77X and A330NEO are still very much at that stage at the present. And since Delta will be annnouncing before year's end on their next widebody order i'm not sure either one of those aircraft will be far enough along in their develpomental stages to be considered.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:08 am

“There is a huge need for a small widebody. We really need Airbus to step up and re-engine.”

That I think is not just someone mulling over a general idea about some mid sized widebody but someone keenly interested in a particular product! And if Delta isn't interested at all why the "we".
 
M1chl
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
Delta's entire fleet is a big bet that fuel cost will stay low. They prioritize cheaper aircraft acquisition and ownership prices, often at the expense of some fuel cost. The whole business case for the A330neo is based on it having fuel burn "almost" as good as the 787's, but with a much lower price. Thus an A330neo order from Delta would be consistent with their general strategy.

To my knowledge A330N (both models) are more expensive than 787s, according to table prices. I know that companies, gives operators discounts, but still, even with those discounts, 787 still has couple of millions advantage over A330N. Is commonality with A330C, that much of a deal? I mean in terms of maintenance cost.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:19 am

Why would he go out on a limb like that?
Egg on his face if they don't.

And why Delta?

Why not KE...or AA...or HA...or LH....etc
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
According to Reuters, Airbus COO John Leahy thinks delta will order A330NEO

I'd love to know what Leahy actually said, because in the article the direct quote is that he thinks the A330Neo would be "the ideal aircraft for Delta."

Which is not the same as "expecting an order."

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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:30 am

If I am not mistaken, DL at some point mentioned that Airbus should go ahead with the A330NEO and that such a plane would be great for their fleet. I agree with seabosdca that it is "never a good thing to publicly express confidence that you've earned a specific order before it's in the bag", but I would be surprised if DL does not order the A330NEO at some point.
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
According to Reuters, Airbus COO John Leahy thinks delta will order A330NEO

I'd love to know what Leahy actually said, because in the article the direct quote is that he thinks the A330Neo would be "the ideal aircraft for Delta."

Which is not the same as "expecting an order."

mariner

   You are so correct. We need to know the question that may have been asked John Leahy and if it was specifically asked to cause him to make that statement about Delta.   

[Edited 2014-07-15 17:39:50]
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speedbored
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 10):
Quoting klkla (Reply 8):
So is the 777 and Anderson used the paper plane remark in remarks about the 777 revamp. So, I think that is what lucky777 was referring to.

Exactly.

Delta was basically saying they wouldn't commit to an aircraft that was still essentially on the drawing boards and the 77X and A330NEO are still very much at that stage at the present.

The changes to the 777 are far far more extensive, including an all-new wing with folding wingtips, interior structure changes, stretch, .... It's basically a new aircraft. The 330neo, on the other hand, is a relatively simple upgrade.

I can see why one would be considered a "paper plane" when the other would not.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 17):
The changes to the 777 are far far more extensive, including an all-new wing with folding wingtips, interior structure changes, stretch, .... It's basically a new aircraft. The 330neo, on the other hand, is a relatively simple upgrade.

This.

Plus its not a mystery. Richard Anderson has publicly said that Delta is interested in the A330NEO but not in the 777X.

Everything else is an argument in semantics.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:42 am

My biggest question to all this is Delta prepared to fly their A330 fleet for the next 15 to 20 years with 3 different engine types. We know that 32 PW powered birds are owned and will fly with DL till the wings fall of, they plan to start receiving first of 10 brand new GE powered birds next year and those will be owned and not leased on a short term, and now the 330neo is RR powered. I know they have 767 with two different engine options but having tree seems like an operational nightmare.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
Delta's entire fleet is a big bet that fuel cost will stay low.

That and also the fact that an older, less-expensive fleet is easier to park when times get lean. It costs very little to park a fully paid-off 767. It costs an awful lot to park a brand-new 787.
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klkla
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:13 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 18):
This.

Plus its not a mystery. Richard Anderson has publicly said that Delta is interested in the A330NEO but not in the 777X.

Everything else is an argument in semantics.

I agree with what you're saying but a couple years ago he also said he would have ordered the 787-10 'yesterday' if he could and now he can. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens with the RFP.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 11):
“There is a huge need for a small widebody. We really need Airbus to step up and re-engine.”

That I think is not just someone mulling over a general idea about some mid sized widebody but someone keenly interested in a particular product! And if Delta isn't interested at all why the "we".

Just throwing this out there to   

Use the term "we" (probably a deliberate use) to further gain Boeing's attention. The 787's have been deferred with no known timetable stated publicly. I would imagine the deal NW struck in the beginning has an out clause that is tolerable to DL. Then DL picks up the 330N. Lot of egg on Boeing's face then to lose the order + cancellation + order for 330N.

Could be a negotiation tactic RA pick up from EK / QR.... who knows. We'll just have to wait and see but the speculation is always fun!
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 21):
I agree with what you're saying but a couple years ago he also said he would have ordered the 787-10 'yesterday' if he could and now he can. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens with the RFP.

While I would love to see the 787-9, -10, and even the 777X in Delta's fleet..

His "yesterday" statement doesn't really hold any relevance anymore in regards to what DL will do now.

-A330NEO wasn't launched at the time
-I believe the 777X was still in pre-launch R&D changes and didn't have set-in-stone specifications yet

Other factor to consider:

-Today's 787-10 is proving to be much lighter and more capable than the then-speculative 787-10 that Anderson was speaking of at the time of that press release
-A330NEO has RR engines, will DL be interested in having three engine suppliers for one subfleet?
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:23 am

Richard Anderson says things that don't make sense. Experimental airplanes=Boeing 777x, but does not apply to A330Neo, A350-1000.

Then says 787 is not proven (even by 2018), but will gladly consider a brand new, not yet in service A330Neo or A351 at that date,even though both or either one of the Airbus aircraft will have barely been in service for a year, while the 787 would have been around for at least 7 years.

If he ain't in the bag for Airbus, then I don't know what else to say. He's been an Airbus dude for a while and that ain't changing.

Stand by for A330Neo for Delta if he's around. Funny he's continued to defer those 787s he has on order for like forever.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:28 am

While DL may be a candidate to buy the A330-800neo, I think a more likely possibility is DL negotiating a deal to buy a mix of A350XWB-900 and -1000 models to fly DL's longer international routes to Europe and Asia. DL would certainly use the A350XWB-1000 to replace the rapidly-aging 747-400 fleet.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:49 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 17):

It isn't a paper airplane, but its a paper engine. I believe Rollers will produce a great engine, but I do believe Delta waits to place a (large) order simply because its not a engine that has any on-wing numbers.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 18):

and he is going to order the 787-10, that is "too big", yesterday. (well, yesterday about a year ago)

he is playing the game, I bet the most that comes from the 330NEO in the next two years is end of the line 330CEO slots. IMHO if he wanted it so badly he would have jumped on launch pricing........


*i still say Delta will have 50ish of the airplanes, but not now....*

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 24):

The Neo is going to happen. Move on, get over it.

787 will happen too though. (of course, this will also be painful for you, because my money is on the T1000 not the GEnX)

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 27):
Should DL order the A330neo would be putting Airbus' best interests above their own.

er do what now? I would love to know what data you are using to get to that.......
The 330NEO is going to be a great plane.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 28):
If he ain't in the bag for Airbus, then I don't know what else to say. He's been an Airbus dude for a while and that ain't changing.

Which is why they have ordered 100 737s, and got 50+ M90s and 80+ 717s. Yep. Clearly hates those Boeings.  
Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 28):
Funny he's continued to defer those 787s he has on order for like forever.

er
once and the plane, as of now, will be here in 4 years. (closer to 3)
 
UA444
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:26 am

The original article really had a click bait title, since Leahy did not say anything remotely close to "DL will order this plane".
 
chiad
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting groover158 (Reply 9):
Call me crazy, but I am pretty confident that Leahy knows what he is doing. He's managed to sell an aircraft or two in his time

You know .... I think I will join you in the coco's nest.
Not only do I share Mr Leahy's optimism, but also If he choose to say this in the media I think there's a pretty good reason for it as well.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
and got 50+ M90s and 80+ 717s. Yep. Clearly hates those Boeings.

Ya sure........They AIN'T Boeings. There McDonnell Douglas. Boeing inherited them.   
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:49 am

DL conserves capital. The A330NEO would be a good fit for DL. Not their sole widebody purchase, but I could see a significant purchase by DL.

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'd love to know what Leahy actually said, because in the article the direct quote is that he thinks the A330Neo would be "the ideal aircraft for Delta."

Which is not the same as "expecting an order."

Agreed. I'm amazed though I'm agreeing completely with Leahy...

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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:07 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
It isn't a paper airplane, but its a paper engine. I believe Rollers will produce a great engine, but I do believe Delta waits to place a (large) order simply because its not a engine that has any on-wing numbers.

Its not a paper engine. Its basically the same engine as the Trent1000 flying on the 787 today.

http://leehamnews.com/2014/07/15/air...t-2-engines-and-maintenance-costs/

That link is from today.

You are crazy if you think Delta doesn't order it due to its development stage. The only reason Delta won't order this airplane is that Boeing ends up offering a deal with better economics. At the end of the day, Delta can have the A330NEO arriving in volume by early 2018. 787s aren't available in quantity until Delta's current 2020 slots.

Now, its possible that Boeing can jiggle a few slots around, but would they really do that AND offer the cut-rate price needed to beat the A330NEO economics? Probably not.

Now, note that I am not saying Delta doesn't take some A330NEOs and some 777-300ERs. I think that is still a possibility.

Personally, I'd prefer the 787 over the A330NEO, but I'm absolutely certain that Airbus offers Delta a remarkable deal (driven by the amortized A330 development costs) along with far better availability. The operating economics of the 787 are going to have a real tough time combatting that combination. And Delta has shown very recently that it is not afraid to order Airbus products, including the 330.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:27 am

"Airbus Anderson" will be ordering A330NEOs-not if but when. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Most of "Delta's" Sr Mgt are NWA senior Mgt. "Delta" has ordered the A330, the A321, and they will order the A350 and A330NEO.
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:46 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'd love to know what Leahy actually said, because in the article the direct quote is that he thinks the A330Neo would be "the ideal aircraft for Delta."

Which is not the same as "expecting an order."

Exactly! It's just the reporter/journal producing attention grabbing headlines. It's achieved its aim because it's got all the Leahy/Airbus haters here excited.

IF (and it's a huge IF) he did say it, I suspect he knows something that lots of other people don't!   
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deltal1011man
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:32 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
Its not a paper engine.

really, how many are flying? better question how many are built right now?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
Its basically the same engine as the Trent1000 flying on the 787 today.

then why isn't Rollers going after a Trent 1000 derivative, vs going for a new engine?

The gear box and pneumatic system alone will make it different. Yes its the same core (for the most part, really wish the engine had more plastic, but oh well) but it is still going to have some changes made to it. These changes could mean complications, which could mean delays.....lower than expected fuel burn, etc etc. We wont know till the engine is put in a test cell and ran.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
You are crazy if you think Delta doesn't order it due to its development stage.

Right, because "Delta wants “real numbers” on range, seat mile costs, maintenance costs and fuel burn for the aircraft before it makes a decision, says Anderson."
How do you get real numbers on the Trent 7000 right now?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ially-very-viable-aircraft-400729/

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
The only reason Delta won't order this airplane is that Boeing ends up offering a deal with better economics

I would love to know how you got to that? if it was such a home run then why not launch the aircraft and get launch pricing?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
At the end of the day, Delta can have the A330NEO arriving in volume by early 2018.

assuming no issues.
and we haven't had a widebody on time since....I guess the 777? 350, 787, 380, 748 have all been late. some by months some by years.
and your also assuming the T7000 is perfect right out of the gate.
IIRC the GEnX and T1000 have both had to be PIPed to reach the original fuel burn numbers. (of course both have been PIPed past that number now)

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
787s aren't available in quantity until Delta's current 2020 slots.

You really think, Boeing isn't going to find a place for Delta? that they are going to let the worlds largest 767 carrier replace part of that fleet with ABs due to slots?


Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
but would they really do that AND offer the cut-rate price needed to beat the A330NEO economics?

wait, what? Airbus even said operating cost will be 1% less than the 787. I don't see how its going to be hard for Boeing to beat a plane that has 1% lower operating cost, but cost 10M more and has a range that is 2000nm longer.
The only thing AB may have going for them is slots. Even with that, its going to take a big assumption that it will meet its targets out of the gate and be on time........oh and that Delta is going to fill the airplanes up to get the seat cost advantage. good luck with that one in the winter to Europe.

and that Delta can effectively figure out how to add 80 seats per plane to its TATL network without cutting many flights.....

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
some 777-300ERs.

unless Boeing basically gives them away I would bet on it being all of a 1% chance. IMO if the 77W was going to happen it would have happened with the 10 CF6 333s were ordered.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
Personally, I'd prefer the 787 over the A330NEO,

I personally don't care if they order 330s, 350s, 787s, or buy up all of the FX M11s and convert them to PAX airplanes. All I care about is that those engines that get replaced (CF6 and PW4000s) get back filled with whatever engine they pick. That those 767 PSVs get replace with whatever airplane they pick.
In other words, I want Delta to order the airplane that will have the most components, engines and airframe work done in-house. Also whatever airplane/engine will be able to bring in the most MRO revenue.
If it is going to be an outsourced airplane with power by the hour and PSVs done in Mexico or by AAR then I don't want it ordered.
that is all that matters to me.

I probably wouldn't work on it anyways, but i don't want to see TechOps get any smaller, or get anyone get any more junior.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
but I'm absolutely certain that Airbus offers Delta a remarkable deal (driven by the amortized A330 development costs) along with far better availability.

and that Boeing is going to let its largest 767 airline replace those 767s with 330s.......?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
And Delta has shown very recently that it is not afraid to order Airbus products, including the 330.

i don't remember saying they were. I do believe i said I bet Delta ends up with 50ish NEOs. Just not out of this RFP.
 
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:40 am

Delta will more likely buy all the low priced 8-10 year old A330 that will come off lease in next 5 years, than a warmed over design that is more expensive than the 787 to procure, that points to a Boeing widebody order this year of more 787 in my opinion, The A330 is a nice old aircraft, even a new 767 has a more modern feeling interior
 
strfyr51
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:52 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 19):
My biggest question to all this is Delta prepared to fly their A330 fleet for the next 15 to 20 years with 3 different engine types. We know that 32 PW powered birds are owned and will fly with DL till the wings fall of, they plan to start receiving first of 10 brand new GE powered birds next year and those will be owned and not leased on a short term, and now the 330neo is RR powered. I know they have 767 with two different engine options but having tree seems like an operational nightmare.

I don't think so, Delta is reported to have an Excellent turbine overhaul facility and just like ours at United? They'll overhaul what Ever comes through the door. So PW, GE or Rolls? Basicly? There's not much difference in the nuts and bolts.
On the real side? It you had all 3 stripped and on stands sitting next to each other? You might be hard pressed to tell which was which if you didn't read the Data Plate.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
It's pretty much never a good thing to publicly express confidence that you've earned a specific order before it's in the bag.

Delta has a lot of experience with Rolls Royce engines from their L1011 fleet. Maintaining them is not a major deal breaker. The ATL turbine overhaul facility is awesome and the mechanics there are chomping at the bit for some new work.

Anderson could be playing a shall game with Boeing to get the prices lower and to guarantee available slots for when Delta wants to add them to the fleet. Never underestimate Delta's ability to "Play the game." For all we know they may have some slots on hold for a potential DL order and are just not talking about it. Plus with the SC facility up and running and additional bays available in Everett with the decrease in 747 orders expanding the line is not a problem. They will get the exact airplanes that they want at the prices they want when they want them. They are too good a customer and neither Airbus nor Boeing wants to lose them. My SWAG would be that Boeing offers DL the 787-9 and -10 at the same price or less than the 330 NEO.
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jayunited
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 10):
Delta was basically saying they wouldn't commit to an aircraft that was still essentially on the drawing boards and the 77X and A330NEO are still very much at that stage at the present. And since Delta will be annnouncing before year's end on their next widebody order i'm not sure either one of those aircraft will be far enough along in their develpomental stages to be considered.

besides the engines and new winglets and probably some software changes and upgrades what else is Airbus changing on the A330NEO? I thought for the most part the A330NEO was a carry over from todays proven and popular aircraft. While Boeing is making a lot more changes to 777-8/9 which is why the comment was made about a paper aircraft. Airbus is saying the A330NEO should have an entry into service around the Q4 2017 sooner than Boeings 779 which in my opinion suggests that the changes to the A330NEO are not as extensive as the changes being made to the 777 program.

But anyway I was hoping DL would not order the A330NEO and instead go for the 787-8/9. But if DL does order this aircraft I think they may cancel the NW 787's already on order or defer the deliveries to mid or even late 2020's. From what Airbus has said they seem to believe the A330NEO is a better aircraft and a better choice over the 787, I don't know how much of that is just smoke and mirrors and how much truth there is to the claims Airbus is making.
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):
Delta has a lot of experience with Rolls Royce engines from their L1011 fleet. Maintaining them is not a major deal breaker. The ATL turbine overhaul facility is awesome and the mechanics there are chomping at the bit for some new work.

Anderson could be playing a shall game with Boeing to get the prices lower and to guarantee available slots for when Delta wants to add them to the fleet. Never underestimate Delta's ability to "Play the game." For all we know they may have some slots on hold for a potential DL order and are just not talking about it. Plus with the SC facility up and running and additional bays available in Everett with the decrease in 747 orders expanding the line is not a problem. They will get the exact airplanes that they want at the prices they want when they want them. They are too good a customer and neither Airbus nor Boeing wants to lose them. My SWAG would be that Boeing offers DL the 787-9 and -10 at the same price or less than the 330 NEO.

Ok, your Anet name doesn't indicate that your professions eventually could be that of an Airplane production, supplier management or even cost engineering specialist.

I understand your desire, but you should understand that an airplane manufacturing line is somehow different then a line for producing donuts. While the donuts line may quickly be switched from a Chocolate donut to a donut with strawberry coating, an empty slot in the 747-8 line cannot so easily filled with additional 787s for DL.

Also when Boeing would try to undercut the A330 price for an airline, others want to have that price too and soon our lovely Boeing could be bankrupt. Aggressive price games Boeing may do from 2030 or so, when the 787 line and its investments are paid off. Then the 787 will be in the position the A330 is right now, but also something new might be around the corner from one of the manufacturers.

Greetings

Flyglobal
 
texl1649
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:26 pm

Even if they order new NEO's or 787's this afternoon, wouldn't they be delivered 2018-2020 likely, and any turbine overhauls likely out past 2020 in any case?
 
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tlecam
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:41 pm

I suspect that Delta will end up with a mixed A/B fleet of some sort for the widebodies moving forward.

I can't help but think about two things - R.A.'s desire for a "small widebody" and not paying for "too much" plane in terms of range. With that in mind I can not help but think that the A338/A339 are better suited to many of those 763ER routes that DL has today compared to the 787 or the A350.

I know they've said that they're not looking at paper planes, but it would seem foolish to not at least consider the 338/339 in addition to the 332/333 in this upcoming RFP.
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jetlanta
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
really, how many are flying? better question how many are built right now?
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
then why isn't Rollers going after a Trent 1000 derivative, vs going for a new engine?

You are making all of these things into way too big of deal. The NEO is a very minor derivative of a very successful and reliable aircraft that Delta loves. There is nothing "game-changing" on the aircraft that indicates a high degree of development risk, including the engine. Could things go wrong? Sure, but the odds are pretty low. And I'm sure that Delta will get strong contractual guarantees to ensure it is protected.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
I would love to know how you got to that? if it was such a home run then why not launch the aircraft and get launch pricing?

You don't have to have your order announced at an air show to get launch pricing. Trust me, Air AsiaX isn't getting a better deal on this airplane that Delta will because it announced this week instead of three months from now. Its an active negotiation. Hell, Delta could still end up as the first operator. Who knows at this point?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
You really think, Boeing isn't going to find a place for Delta? that they are going to let the worlds largest 767 carrier replace part of that fleet with ABs due to slots?
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
wait, what? Airbus even said operating cost will be 1% less than the 787. I don't see how its going to be hard for Boeing to beat a plane that has 1% lower operating cost, but cost 10M more and has a range that is 2000nm longer.

You really don't understand how production slots are allocated. Purchasers have already paid deposits on most, if not all, of the slots available until 2020. In order for Boeing to come up with earlier slots, they either have to convince those existing slot holders to trade or they have to increase production even further. They might do the former if Delta was paying a premium, but the entire point is that they are going to have to offer Delta a huge discount in order to beat the A330NEO economics. It makes no financial sense for Boeing to pay off an early slot holder only to give Delta a huge discount. And if they do give Delta a huge discount, what do they tell Etihad and ANA and all the other carriers who are even bigger 787 customers? You don't just cut price like that. Its a very delicate dance.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
and that Boeing is going to let its largest 767 airline replace those 767s with 330s.......?

They "let" Delta top up on A330-300s within the last year, didn't they?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 34):
i don't remember saying they were. I do believe i said I bet Delta ends up with 50ish NEOs. Just not out of this RFP.

But why not? RA says its an active contender. You think he is full of it? From what I understand, it really is under serious consideration. On paper, its just about perfect for Delta's need, which is a sub 6000 mile, 300-seat aircraft to ply the North Atlantic, North Pacific and South America routes.

Like I said, I prefer the 787 myself. I'm only arguing with you here because you are wrong. All signs point to the A330NEO as the one to beat here. And I'm not pulling that out of my ass.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 41):
I can't help but think about two things - R.A.'s desire for a "small widebody" and not paying for "too much" plane in terms of range. With that in mind I can not help but think that the A338/A339 are better suited to many of those 763ER routes that DL has today compared to the 787 or the A350.

Exactly.

Quoting tlecam (Reply 41):
I know they've said that they're not looking at paper planes, but it would seem foolish to not at least consider the 338/339 in addition to the 332/333 in this upcoming RFP.

Once again, RA was directly referring to the 777X as a "paper" airplane. He has repeatedly indicated that the A330NEO is under active consideration for this RFP. There shouldn't be any confusion about that.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:03 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 19):
My biggest question to all this is Delta prepared to fly their A330 fleet for the next 15 to 20 years with 3 different engine types. We know that 32 PW powered birds are owned and will fly with DL till the wings fall of, they plan to start receiving first of 10 brand new GE powered birds next year and those will be owned and not leased on a short term, and now the 330neo is RR powered. I know they have 767 with two different engine options but having tree seems like an operational nightmare.

As far as I know, they have aircraft already flying with RR Trent engines. Of course they're not 7000-series, but Trents share commonality. Also, "Pay by the hour" deals on engine maintenance is very common now, which leaves engine type irrelevant as the maintenance is not done in-house.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 39):

Ok, your Anet name doesn't indicate that your professions eventually could be that of an Airplane production, supplier management or even cost engineering specialist.

Having been invoved aviation both in the USAF and with an airline since 1970 and as a subscriber to Aviation Week since 1974 I have gained some small measure of knowledge through....osmosis and observation. Oh, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Never underestimate the power of self-education and rigorous study. I am not shy about asking questions to people that I know have the right answers. (Richard Anderson being one. He is ALWAYS available to talk to a team member).

I have seen the boom and bust cycles of the airline industry and the sudden cancelllation of large orders of aircraft when the economy suddenly changes (such as the late 70's-early '80's when financing went to prime plus 15. I watched with amusement when Boeing got stuck with a bunch of white-tail 747's and the prices that they let them sell for just to get the off the books). It is a highly cyclical industry. I have several good friends at Boeing who tell me that slots are quietly reserved for when a sudden need arises or when a large order suddenly cancels (As in the EK A350 cancellation). Production rates can be increased or decreased when need dictates (I remember the billboards in SEA saying "Will the Last Person that Leaves Boeing Please Turn Off the Lights." Line numbers are very flexible. We have all seen how fast Boeing can ramp up production of the 737 series.

A.net is just a bunch of nice folks SPECULATING and a very few with inside knowledge ( who I listen to carefully).

[Edited 2014-07-16 07:57:31]
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JetBuddy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:34 pm

DTWPurserBoy, don't mind FlyGlobal. I've been impressed multiple times by your knowledge of this industry, and your personal stories and experiences. To me, there's nothing worse than some "besserwisser" questioning your own authority. Don't let his comment get to you. Have a great day!
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 46):






DTWPurserBoy, don't mind FlyGlobal. I've been impressed multiple times by your knowledge of this industry, and your personal stories and experiences. To me, there's nothing worse than some "besserwisser" questioning your own authority. Don't let his comment get to you. Have a great day!

Thanks, JetBuddy--appreciate the support.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 39):

I understand your desire, but you should understand that an airplane manufacturing line is somehow different then a line for producing donuts. While the donuts line may quickly be switched from a Chocolate donut to a donut with strawberry coating, an empty slot in the 747-8 line cannot so easily filled with additional 787s for DL.

Also when Boeing would try to undercut the A330 price for an airline, others want to have that price too and soon our lovely Boeing could be bankrupt. Aggressive price games Boeing may do from 2030 or so, when the 787 line and its investments are paid off. Then the 787 will be in the position the A330 is right now, but also something new might be around the corner from one of the manufacturers.

Actually, they are quite similar in functionality. You can speed up or slow down the line as needed. Right now Boeing is producing over 1 737 per calendar day and they want to increase it.

An empty slot on the production schedule is an opportunity to sell one at a higher price. Boeing does not normally disclose the price any carrier pays for an airplane--for that you sometimes have to dig through the carriers SEC filings and even that will be a rounded number. Boeing always says when quoting public prices that it is the "list" price and carriers that buy substantial numbers of aircraft get greatly reduced prices. This has been discussed on this forum numerous times most lately in regard to DL's purchase of the end-of-production B737-900ER's. It has been repeatedly rumored that they paid less than 50% of list.

Now Airbus is facing a big hole in their projected A350 production schedule and I am sure they would be more than happy to talk price with any carrier that wants to take over a large number of slots.

Boeing is now and always has been an aggresive pricer. They want the business and while they are not going to give the frame away they are realistic enough to know how to price. An airline like Air Kenya does not pay the same price for a 777 that UA would. Plus Boeing has their military contracts to bolster the bottom line--Airbus has a limited amount of military business.

Northwest walked away from the A340 order literally while the airplanes were in final assembly. Airbus subsequently sold those frames to Virgin Atlantic and I am sure the Richard Branson got them for a VERY good price.
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bobnwa
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RE: Airbus Sales Chief Thinks Delta Will Order A330NEO

Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:23 pm

w


[

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
ding to Reuters, Airbus COO John Leahy thinks delta will order A330NEO. Would be awesome if it happened.

Unless you worked for Delta or Airbus, Why would this be awesome?

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