Jetsouth
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:48 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Bombardier aims to deliver some 40 CSeries aircraft in 2018.

See https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/941269978875035649


Considering they were way off their forecasted deliveries for both 2017 and 2016, I would not put confidence in their delivery forecasts
 
DUSZRH
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:04 pm

Considering they were more or less producing 2 per month for most of the recent months, an increase to 3.5 does't seem so far fetched...
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:23 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Considering they were way off their forecasted deliveries for both 2017 and 2016, I would not put confidence in their delivery forecasts


Initially the delivery forecast for 2018 was 45-55 airplanes so they have lowered that figure.

Image
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Tominjsh
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:48 pm

cs300 - one year in commercial service :candle: :champagne: :trophy:
:airplane:
 
wrongwayup
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:01 pm

40 in 2018... the top end for 2017 (back before it was revised downward a couple of times) was 35...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:07 am

wrongwayup wrote:
40 in 2018... the top end for 2017 (back before it was revised downward a couple of times) was 35...

Sigh... Yeah. I hope engine production has hit stride.

My main concern is if Korean Air takes any in 2027...

Lightsaber
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
My main concern is if Korean Air takes any in 2027...

I know you meant 2017, but for a minute, I tought you were sarcastic. (well, maybe not :duck: )
 
wrongwayup
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:43 am

lightsaber wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
40 in 2018... the top end for 2017 (back before it was revised downward a couple of times) was 35...

Sigh... Yeah. I hope engine production has hit stride.

My main concern is if Korean Air takes any in 2027...

Lightsaber


Assuming you mean 2017. Yea, would be nice. Their first was up flying today... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFOUQ
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:15 pm

Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:17 pm

And an interesting update regarding the new combustor liner:

Today SWISS next CSeries, MSN 55020 did its client acceptance flight. It flew from Mirabel airport YMX/CYMX where is located its final assembly lines. (it might still be in flight, search for BBA530 on flightradar24.com)

Leaving Tuesday, SWISS crew will be flying this new CS300 to Zurich in a direct flight from Mirabel airport which is located 16 nautical miles (29 km, 18 miles) North West of Montreal Trudeau airport YUL/CYUL.

It will be the first CSeries delivery featuring the Pratt & Whitney engine with the new and improved internal combustor liner.


See https://www.fliegerfaust.com/cseries-ne ... 07922.html
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Aircellist
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:51 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488


It has to have been taken before last saturday. It snowed quite a lot since then.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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PW100
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:17 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488


Six engine-less frames in this photo (perhaps more elsewhere, indoors?). And some claim that Bombardier should have build more gliders frames . . .
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N837MH
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:18 am

Korean Air CS300 Delivery Schedule
First Aircraft (HL8092)
Delivery : December 22th
Delivery Flight : December 23th - 25th
Flight Number : KAL030D
Route : CYMX-PANC-RJCC-RKSS

Second Aircraft (HL8093)
Delivery : December 29th
Delivery Flight : December 30th - January 1st
Flight Number : KAL030D
Route : CYMX-PANC-RJCC-RKSS

Thanks
Best Regards
From Korea
 
VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:48 am

Jetsouth wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Bombardier aims to deliver some 40 CSeries aircraft in 2018.

See https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/941269978875035649


Considering they were way off their forecasted deliveries for both 2017 and 2016, I would not put confidence in their delivery forecasts


Bombardier does not have any choice but to announce 2018 target that is higher than it was for 2017, do they?

The initial target for 2017 was 30 to 35 C Series deliveries. The latest revised target was 20 deliveries in 2017.

If the tripartite deal amongst Bombardier, Investissement Québec and Airbus is ratified in 2018 or in 2019 then I guess the target for 2019 will be set by CSALP.
If the agreement is abandoned then it will be another story.
 
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:29 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488


Why don't they have the usual storage protection? Was it a short temporary storage? Even two day outside storage would need some kind of protection. I don't get it.

When was the picture taken? At this time of the year usually you have snow in Mirabel.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:49 pm

VV wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488


Why don't they have the usual storage protection? Was it a short temporary storage? Even two day outside storage would need some kind of protection. I don't get it.

When was the picture taken? At this time of the year usually you have snow in Mirabel.

Some of these planes have been in outside storage since early 2017
 
VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:01 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
VV wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Found a more recent photo of the storage pit:

Image
https://twitter.com/yulplanespotter/sta ... 3777215488


Why don't they have the usual storage protection? Was it a short temporary storage? Even two day outside storage would need some kind of protection. I don't get it.

When was the picture taken? At this time of the year usually you have snow in Mirabel.

Some of these planes have been in outside storage since early 2017


Without plastic protection on the exposed areas? OMG!
 
fcogafa
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:19 pm

From Flightglobal:

Delta, Bombardier renegotiating delivery clause in CS100 deal
Delta Air Lines has asked Bombardier to guarantee all 75 CS100s ordered in April 2016 will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, instead of Canada, a top airline executive says.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -c-444289/
 
VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:27 pm

After the comments above, I looked at the picture more carefully.

They look like unfinished units with missing parts.
Is there a huge supply chain issue or is there a problem paying the suppliers?

The picture does not make much sense to me. If it is a long storage (more than one day) I would expect plastic covers taped to the orifices. I think it is part of the normal practice in the industry.

Something is not very right there.
 
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:30 pm

fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal:

Delta, Bombardier renegotiating delivery clause in CS100 deal
Delta Air Lines has asked Bombardier to guarantee all 75 CS100s ordered in April 2016 will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, instead of Canada, a top airline executive says.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -c-444289/


Why in Alabama specifically? Why not Wichita?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:25 am

VV wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal:

Delta, Bombardier renegotiating delivery clause in CS100 deal
Delta Air Lines has asked Bombardier to guarantee all 75 CS100s ordered in April 2016 will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, instead of Canada, a top airline executive says.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -c-444289/


Why in Alabama specifically? Why not Wichita?


BBD should tie in as long as there are in import duties on CS100s, DL can be guaranteed their aircraft will be manufacturerd in the United States after all aveues of appeals have been exhuasted in regards to duties. BBD shouldnt commit to U.S. fal unless absoulutely necessary. If BBD agrees with DL without a logical out and some how the Airbus deal dosent work out, BBD would be royally fk'ed
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:00 am

VV wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal:

Delta, Bombardier renegotiating delivery clause in CS100 deal
Delta Air Lines has asked Bombardier to guarantee all 75 CS100s ordered in April 2016 will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, instead of Canada, a top airline executive says.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -c-444289/


Why in Alabama specifically? Why not Wichita?

Because Bombardier signed a deal with Airbus to produce the aircraft there where they have a final assembly line, as opposed to signing a deal with Textron who have final assembly lines in Wichita?

V/F
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VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:33 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
Why in Alabama specifically? Why not Wichita?

Because Bombardier signed a deal with Airbus to produce the aircraft there where they have a final assembly line, as opposed to signing a deal with Textron who have final assembly lines in Wichita?
V/F


Why textron?

http://us.bombardier.com/us/aerospace_manufacturing.htm
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:06 am

VV wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
Why in Alabama specifically? Why not Wichita?

Because Bombardier signed a deal with Airbus to produce the aircraft there where they have a final assembly line, as opposed to signing a deal with Textron who have final assembly lines in Wichita?
V/F


Why textron?

http://us.bombardier.com/us/aerospace_manufacturing.htm

I guess I had discounted the idea of them doing a marketing and production deal with themselves, as well as selling a half share to themselves, to augment the sales effort for the type.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
DALCE
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:00 pm

The next CS3 for SWISS is scheduled for delivery 20DEC as HB-JCG.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:18 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Because Bombardier signed a deal with Airbus to produce the aircraft there where they have a final assembly line, as opposed to signing a deal with Textron who have final assembly lines in Wichita?
V/F


Why textron?

http://us.bombardier.com/us/aerospace_manufacturing.htm

I guess I had discounted the idea of them doing a marketing and production deal with themselves, as well as selling a half share to themselves, to augment the sales effort for the type.

V/F



Is there any reason to not utilize an existing industrial foot print. Why would it be mutually exclusive with a marketing and sales and other stuff agreement?

Please explain. Thanks.
 
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Polot
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:55 pm

VV wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:

I guess I had discounted the idea of them doing a marketing and production deal with themselves, as well as selling a half share to themselves, to augment the sales effort for the type.

V/F



Is there any reason to not utilize an existing industrial foot print. Why would it be mutually exclusive with a marketing and sales and other stuff agreement?

Please explain. Thanks.

Because Airbus wants the US C Series FAL at Mobile by their current A320 assembly line. I imagine Airbus want a FAL completely out of BBD's control/sphere of influence, especially if Airbus ultimately exercise their clause to take full control of the program.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:34 pm

This topic is running in circles. Why gliders: [url=https://www.fliegerfaust.com/bombardier-is-running-out-of-space-and-out-of-time-2453962594.html]Fliegerfaust, July 2017] Not enough FAL2 capacity, and engine and seats supply issues.
I don't know how much equipment is installed at FAL1 (two lines). The externally stowed planes look to have just finished FAL1. Possibly BBD removed all avionics so they doesn't have to protect so much equipment. I expect the basic coating protects the structures enough.

I expect that Airbus and BBD have much more planned than only the CSeries collaboration. I think the Quebec stake will be bought out by Airbus when possible, and then they are very happy with the 70/30 (Airbus/BBD) CSeries program division. I think that Airbus and BBD will optimize the CSeries production proces, most likely they will go for another proces than originally planned by BBD. The US CSeries FAL will remove production demand from Mirabel, so a beter proces can be implemented there for further ramp up. I think that with additional hangar space for four planes, there is enough room to produce 280 CSeries annually (4x 6/month) or 210 CSeries and <100 CRJ's, I think the later is a better option. Besides this Mirabel capability, I expect also a 6/month Mobile CSeries capability (<72/year).

I also think that US has to realize that this is the friendly offer by BBD and Airbus. If this one is blocked, I expect Airbus and BBD wil push suppliers to move their production closer to their FALs. (Out of the USA to the EU, China and Canada)
(I stand by the motto: Design Globally, Produce Locally)
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:17 pm

:shock: :oops: GRRRR I forgot [/url
the working link: Fliegerfaust, July 2017

Let's add that a CSeries in Europe or China / India would work far beter for BBD and Airbus than one in the US (Mobile). Those lines could have eliminated long delivery flights.
So indeed the Mobile CSeries FAL a method to avoid a 300% import tax for US airlines. A $300mln additional investment because Boeing can't compete on a level playing field.
Since I'm off topic; let's also add this LEEHAM article I recommend to view the presentations added to the article.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:48 pm

Video of FAL1's from 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQAl-F62sA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j52Ni1h63DY
If this is how they produce it, it's no wonder that they have problems at FAL2 (Cabin outfitting). I think AB&BBD are going to move a lot of FAL2 work to before FAL1.
 
neromancer
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:50 am

Polot wrote:
VV wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
I guess I had discounted the idea of them doing a marketing and production deal with themselves, as well as selling a half share to themselves, to augment the sales effort for the type.

V/F


Is there any reason to not utilize an existing industrial foot print. Why would it be mutually exclusive with a marketing and sales and other stuff agreement?

Please explain. Thanks.

Because Airbus wants the US C Series FAL at Mobile by their current A320 assembly line. I imagine Airbus want a FAL completely out of BBD's control/sphere of influence, especially if Airbus ultimately exercise their clause to take full control of the program.


My understanding is under the proposed deal the FAL in Mirabel is protected till 2041 even if Airbus exercise their clause to take full control of the program several years from now. By 2041 the C-Series would probably be EOL. It's also my understanding that if an FAL in Mobile is required it would be for mostly US customers only and that Mirabel would continue to be the primary manufacturing facility.
 
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:53 am

Korean Air confirmed it will receive its first CS300 aircraft on Friday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kal- ... SKBN1EE0CB
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CRJ900
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:59 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Korean Air confirmed it will receive its first CS300 aircraft on Friday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kal- ... SKBN1EE0CB


Yay, looking forward to videos on youtube of Korean's CS300 :D

The article says Korean will take 10 CS300, but some here mentioned that one aircraft was not taken up and the fleet would number only 9. Who is right?

When will there be a CSeries - Part 3 here?
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KarelXWB
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:58 am

HB-JCG has been delivered.

Bombardier CS 300 55020 HB-JCG Swiss International delivery 20dec17 YMX-ZRH
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FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:06 am

Will KE swap out 737-800 for these on domestic runs ? Or are the CS300s for China ?
 
Canuck600
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:50 pm

I've been trying to keep a eye on C deliveries but the Transport Canada Imported/Exported in the last 30 days database isn't working for me, anybody else having problems?
 
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:15 pm

A small glimpse of the Korean Air CS300 aircraft:

Image
https://twitter.com/BBD_Aircraft/status ... 9941690368
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VV
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:06 pm

Do you think 18 C Series deliveries in 2017 is about correct?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:03 pm

Korean Air #1 is ready for delivery.

Image
https://twitter.com/prattandwhitney/sta ... 7731755009
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KarelXWB
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:18 pm

Aircellist wrote:
It has to have been taken before last saturday. It snowed quite a lot since then.


VV wrote:
When was the picture taken? At this time of the year usually you have snow in Mirabel.


December 9, see https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyulplane ... 099024147/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
lostsound
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:54 am

Any cabin images released yet?
 
bmibaby737
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm

Regarding engine/thrust variant - Air Baltic has the PW1521G and Swiss has the PW1524G - does anyone know what Korean went for?
 
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:35 pm

I am trying to find more info on the supply chain issues for the C series, even assuming there are always teething issues with new aircraft programs, isn't the 40 frame target for 2018 dramatically low for a relatively small plane, I mean I think thats about how many A320 family aircraft Airbus churns out per month. Even without the tariff BS Boeing pulled I would imagine that kind of delivery rate would be a huge problem for airlines considering the C series. Can anyone shed more light into the ramp up issues and please don't attack for asking I looked but couldn't find good info or link (link above is not working) Thanks Already.
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Well, the six gliders parked outside, WITHOUT engines, should give us some clues...
 
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GE90man
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:25 pm

Some photos of Korean Air's first CS300, including cabin shots
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 978905001/
 
SteelChair
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:02 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Well, the six gliders parked outside, WITHOUT engines, should give us some clues...


It is almost unconscionable that PW has not been held to account by the aviation press.

Furthermore, have they (PW) made any public statement at all throughout the whole dumping fiasco?
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:44 am

I know PW are paying Bombardier for the financial losses related to the resulting delays. (Must be the same for Airbus)

This delay is actually not such a big deal as BBD is with a few early production slots available (Delta's) due to that Boeing hypocrite conplaint...
 
Someone83
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:38 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Well, the six gliders parked outside, WITHOUT engines, should give us some clues...


Well, AFAIK a few of those were supposed to go to Braathens/BRA which has defered their order, so the reason behind these gliders is not only engine related
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:39 am

Has there been any further news on that undisclosed order for 31 + 30 C-Series for a European Airline?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:39 pm

Someone83 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Well, the six gliders parked outside, WITHOUT engines, should give us some clues...


Well, AFAIK a few of those were supposed to go to Braathens/BRA which has defered their order, so the reason behind these gliders is not only engine related


Why didn't BBD send those frames to another operator rather than sitting there as gliders?

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