CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

JHwk · Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:11 pm

The original production rate target was 40 first year, 80 second year, and 120 third year. I have no idea if that still holds; based on the current picture it seems unlikely, and I doubt they will build more than 20 in the first year.

jalarner · Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Bonus for those interested - test flights are now showing up again on FlightRadar24....and have for the last few weeks at least. Yesterday there were 3 flights and today at least 1 so far.

AntonovA330 · Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:40 am

Some news on CSeries' progress:
http://cseries.com/cseries-happy-new-year-it-is/
In short: 750 flight hours, thereof 150 in December 2014
What caught my eye was this statement: "Moving forward, Bombardier will continue upgrading the FTVs with the latest software enhancements". Is software upgrading an usual procedure in this phase (e.g. if compared to the A350 program)? Seems to me it's being upgraded constantly.

Quantos · Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:04 pm

I do believe it is usual, yes. FBW was already updated throughout the program, as far as I know.

150h in December is a good number, that's for sure. Airinsight.com's speculative numbers were at around 650h cumulative and ~135h in November. Barring any other major issues, they should be good to go with those numbers, especially when FTV5/7 begin flying.

r2rho · Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 4):
What caught my eye was this statement: "Moving forward, Bombardier will continue upgrading the FTVs with the latest software enhancements". Is software upgrading an usual procedure in this phase (e.g. if compared to the A350 program)? Seems to me it's being upgraded constantly.

Very normal. Specially in the first months of flight test as early limitations are removed, issues are fixed, control laws optimized, etc. Same for A350.
This can even be seen as good news, since it means that bench-validated software is making its way onto the a/c, which seemed not to be the case initially, whereas on A350 it went fairly straightforward. It's not so much about having zero bugs from the start (the less the better of course), but about how quickly a fix can be implemented, validated on a testbench, and loaded onto the aircraft. The A350 performed very well in this area, BBD - at least initially - not so. Hope this means things will pick up from now on.

AntonovA330 · Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 5):
I do believe it is usual, yes. FBW was already updated throughout the program, as far as I know.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
Very normal. Specially in the first months of flight test as early limitations are removed, issues are fixed, control laws optimized, etc. Same for A350.

Thanks for clarifying.

Paolo92 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:25 am

Initial Cold weather testing has been completed at Mirabel.

Quote:
Bombardier confirmed today that another key CSeries aircraft program milestone was achieved when the second flight test vehicle (FTV2) took advantage of the prevailing cold Canadian winter season to perform the initial certification cold weather tests.

This certification test was witnessed by Transport Canada and successfully demonstrated start-up operations and flight following an overnight low temperature of -28 degrees Celsius (-18 degrees Fahrenheit). This test has cleared the way for the remainder of cold weather testing.

Following the overnight cold soak, mechanics and the flight test aircrew confirmed ground operations including refueling and operation of the doors; turned the power on, and proceeded through a normal startup sequence typical of airline operations including the successful take-off and landing of FTV2.

“The tests culminated in a normal operation of the flaps and slats, de-icing procedure, take-off, gear and flap retraction, climb out and system checks,” said Robert Dewar, Vice President CSeries Program. “Today’s tests confirmed the initial results from the cold chamber test conducted at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida last year, and clearly demonstrated that the CSeries aircraft will be ready for operation in a harsh winter environment at entry-into-service.”

YXXMIKE · Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Some good news on the CS300 front today - http://www.fliegerfaust.com/cseries-...00-first-engine-sta-946849279.html

outoftheice · Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:51 pm

Bombardier confirmed today that they have now completed the first set of stationary engine runs for the first CS300. First flight is to take place "in the coming weeks". Also of note in the release is that the test fleet has flown about 850 hours to date and they are still forecasting an EIS of second half 2015 for the CS100 with the CS300 following six months after that. Link to Bombardier release: http://cseries.com/cs300-all-fired-up/

rikkus67 · Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting outoftheice (Reply 10):
flown about 850 hours to date

Considering where they were in accumulated flight test times at the start up after the engine failure, looks like they are aggressively pushing ahead. Hope to the the CS300 in the air sooner rather than later!

lollomz · Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:55 am

Who will be the first airline to fly the CS-100?

runway23 · Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:59 am

Quoting lollomz (Reply 12):
Who will be the first airline to fly the CS-100?

Not announced yet, but if I were a betting man, I'd say SWISS.

planemaker · Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 13):
Not announced yet, but if I were a betting man, I'd say SWISS.

While they would be the logical first operator, LH has repeatedly stated that they will not be the first.

United787 · Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:16 pm

Has anyone put together a spreadsheet for the CSeries production, testing & deliveries?

For example:

787

A350

Quantos · Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 15):
Has anyone put together a spreadsheet for the CSeries production, testing & deliveries?

For example:

787

A350

Not as far as I know.

I made this one quickly, based on the 787 one. I'm fairly sure that's up to date: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lXNG1xC1LmNqMjTeDEDgjjyuEVPnwoctDkl6fFr6hTc/edit?usp=sharing

[Edited 2015-01-28 14:09:58]

kaneporta1 · Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:56 am

In other news, I saw FTV1 doing touch and gos last Monday afternoon, followed by a CF-18, which would then catch up and fly formation until breaking of at base leg. Pretty cool.

KarelXWB · Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:45 am

Seems that FTV4 returned to Mirabel two days ago.

Quantos · Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
Seems that FTV4 returned to Mirabel two days ago.

From what I've seen it flew to Mirabel on the 26th and back to Wichita on the 27th: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/c-gwxk#55fb1bb

KarelXWB · Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:08 pm

Flight test update:

Source
http://airinsight.com/2015/02/02/cseries-flight-test-update-3/

outoftheice · Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:39 pm

Bombardier has released another video update today on the progress of the Cseries program. The video can be found here: http://cseries.com/cseries-program-update-with-rob-dewar-4/

Of note:

- The flight test program has now reached a total of over 900 hours with "favourable results" according to Rob Dewar
- FTV 1 has completed flutter tests and in doing so flew to a speed of M 0.91
- FTV 2 has completed extreme cold weather tests in YUL at a temperature of -30C. Bombardier also used the opportunity to explore anti-icing/de-icing procedures.
- FTV 4 has completed cruise fuel burn performance testing and Bombardier is "excited to share the results with the market soon"
- FTV 5 has completed the passenger evacuation certification tests in accordance with TC, FAA and EASA.
- First CS300 aircraft has completed engine runs and ground runs and the aircraft is now back in the hangar for the completion of ground vibration tests prior to first flight.
- In December all static airframe testing (including wing bending test) was completed with "extra growth now built into the program".
- CSeries production has now moved into the new assembly building and the first production CS100 as well as the second CS300 are now in final assembly in the new building.

Sounds like things are rolling along. Looking forward to seeing the cruise fuel burn numbers when they are finally released.

aerolimani · Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting outoftheice (Reply 21):
FTV 4 has completed cruise fuel burn performance testing and Bombardier is "excited to share the results with the market soon"

It's been quite a while since I've heard anything even remotely related to an order. The slowness of orders has been previously attributed, mostly by people on this site, to airlines waiting for hard data regarding fuel efficiency. Assuming Bombardier gets that info out soon, I hope that will translate into some new orders. Perhaps it might also encourage a first operator to show themselves? I guess we can only hope.

YXwatcherMKE · Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:34 am

IF I were a betting man, which I'm not, I would think that fuel burn data will come out somewhere between the next 6 to 8 weeks or at the same time that the C300 has its first flight. Because that is the next big mile stone for that program, and to tie the two together would be a good thing since you might have a few customers and potential customers on hand to see the C-300 take flight. Depends on how warm it will be I would think too.

aerolimani · Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 23):
Depends on how warm it will be I would think too.

Ha! No kidding. Winter in Montréal is unpredictable. I can't help a little bit of patriotism, but even without it, I hope the CSeries program succeeds. It actually looks like a really comfortable plane to fly on.

planemaker · Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 24):
I can't help a little bit of patriotism, but even without it, I hope the CSeries program succeeds.

Next week will be an interesting week for BBD since it announces 2014 financial results on Feb. 12. In the lead up, this lengthy article was just published:

Stormy skies: Bombardier flies a risky flight path

Here are a couple of other recent articles:

One more headwind for Bombardier: underfunded pension plans

Bombardier Inc bleeds investors as credibility issues mount: ‘I’ve given up hope’

rikkus67 · Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 25):
Next week will be an interesting week for BBD

As per usual, thank you for your continuing support...

With recent top-up orders of CRJ's and Q400's, this will help a bit to weather the transition to CSeries for BBD. I am sure with the flight of the first CS300, and the all important fuel burn data released soon, this should be a POSITIVE turning point in the program.

Regardless, we shall see what the future brings. I remain optimistic (without rose coloured glasses) for the CSeries.

JHwk · Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:12 pm

What airlines want a plane with 108 seats and a 2000nmi range? In practical terms, it is the best replacement option for the 737-600 and A318, but that is an awfully small market. It is great from a customer perspective, and maybe as a large domestic bizjet, but how are they going to get the orders they need on the -100?

The -300 obviously has a deeper market potential as a 737-700 and A319 replacement/alternative, but is that going to be enough?

Starting to be nervous of Bombardier's prospects.

neromancer · Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting JHwk (Reply 27):

I don't think the 737-600/700 and A318/A319 are the CS100 and CS300's main targets. Don't get me wrong Bombardier would love a piece of that pie. But I think the MD-80 / MD-90 / Fokker 100 / 717 users are more the objective. Also I think Bombardier will try to target airlines looking to upgrade from the E-190/195 (which a number of airlines are looking to get rid of).

That is quite a sizeable market if you think about it. And considering the anticipated lower trip costs and similar CASM to the 737 MAX and NEO airlines won't need a whole lot of justification to slot the CSeries into the bottom end of the mainline fleet.

Also between the CS100 and CS300 I think the CS300 will be the big seller.

Polot · Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 28):
I don't think the 737-600/700 and A318/A319 are the CS100 and CS300's main targets. Don't get me wrong Bombardier would love a piece of that pie. But I think the MD-80 / MD-90 / Fokker 100 / 717 users are more the objective. Also I think Bombardier will try to target airlines looking to upgrade from the E-190/195 (which a number of airlines are looking to get rid of).

The C-series is too small to replace the MD-80/MD-90, and the Fokker 100/717 is the same market as the 736/A318. I also question the number of airlines looking to get rid of the E-190/195. The CS300 is definitely targeted towards the 73G and A319 market, especially since Boeing/Airbus are not giving full attention to it with the MAX/NEO.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 28):
That is quite a sizeable market if you think about it. And considering the anticipated lower trip costs and similar CASM to the 737 MAX and NEO airlines won't need a whole lot of justification to slot the CSeries into the bottom end of the mainline fleet.

The problem is if it only has similar CASM to the MAX/NEO I'm not sure why airlines would go for an additional fleet type (which basically just wipes away a lot of the lower trip costs savings) on the lower end versus just buying and "abusing" more MAXs/NEOs. Bombardier needs to find that "killer app" where the C-series is far away a better choice than ignoring that market size and using slightly larger aircraft or using the Embraer E2 which will have commonality with the airlines' existing E-jet fleets.

[Edited 2015-02-07 15:54:37]

neromancer · Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:12 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 29):
The C-series is too small to replace the MD-80/MD-90, and the Fokker 100/717 is the same market as the 736/A318. I also question the number of airlines looking to get rid of the E-190/195. The CS300 is definitely targeted towards the 73G and A319 market, especially since Boeing/Airbus are not giving full attention to it with the MAX/NEO.

While the CS300 is a bit smaller than the MD's I still think it might be a good replacement for many of them. I could see airlines like Delta ordering a mix of CS300's and/or A320NEO/738MAX to replace their large fleet of MD's. Maybe even AA might order 30 or 40.

The Fokker 100/717 have ranges in the 1700 - 2000 nmi. 736 and A318 are in the 3000 - 3200 nmi area.
Note CSeries (both CS100/300) are listed as 2950nmi range.

Unlike the E-170/175 the E-190/195 is too big for most regional airlines and too expensive for most mainline fleets. I see the CS100 as a fantastic option here. The E2 is not going to make a big enough leap to make it attractive.

Lower trip costs are the bigger deal. The fact that you can have an aircraft in your fleet with lower trip costs with similar CASM to your larger planes is a huge deal.

[Edited 2015-02-07 16:14:29]

[Edited 2015-02-07 16:17:05]

Polot · Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 30):
I could see airlines like Delta ordering a mix of CS300's and/or A320NEO/738MAX to replace their large fleet of MD's

Frankly I don't see DL (the only major MD-80 operator with AA, and only major MD-90 operator) ordering any C-series anytime soon with 88 717s soon to be in their fleet.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 30):

The Fokker 100/717 have ranges in the 1700 - 2000 nmi. 736 and A318 are in the 3000 - 3200 nmi area.
Note CSeries (both CS100/300) are listed as 2950nmi range.

Yes, their ranges are different- but few airlines bought and use the 736/A318 for their range, most can easily be replaced by C-series.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 30):
Unlike the E-170/175 the E-190/195 is too big for most regional airlines and too expensive for most mainline fleets. I see the CS100 as a fantastic option here.

I see the CS100 being in the same position. The CS300 has a better shot.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 30):
Lower trip costs are the bigger deal. The fact that you can have an aircraft in your fleet with lower trip costs with similar CASM to your larger planes is a huge deal.

We really don't know how much lower the C-series trip costs will end up being though, and I am still not convinced it will be a large enough difference to make acquiring it worthwhile for most airlines.

INFINITI329 · Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:06 am

From Dewar's tone sounds like they have the trump card in terms of fuel efficiency. Either BBD beat or exceeded their predictions, is what I'm guessing and they waiting for the right moment to release it.

JoeCanuck · Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 31):

From the beginning, the CS100 looked to be a high/hot/short runway specialist, so it will always have a more limited market than the CS300.

Quoting outoftheice (Reply 21):

As much as anything coming from an aircraft maker's mouth is a sales pitch, I find the "extra growth built into the program" line interesting.

neromancer · Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:55 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 32):
From Dewar's tone sounds like they have the trump card in terms of fuel efficiency. Either BBD beat or exceeded their predictions, is what I'm guessing and they waiting for the right moment to release it.

I will leave this here as a reminder. If the chart below is even close to being right it will make things interesting.

http://airinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/casm-chart.jpg

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):
As much as anything coming from an aircraft maker's mouth is a sales pitch, I find the "extra growth built into the program" line interesting.

While Bombardier have stated that they have no plans for a CS500 it wouldn't surprise me that the flight test team is taking steps to make future certification of such a model more easy to accomplish.

I work in engineering, product design and certification (not in aviation). I can tell you that were I can I often get our products certified with future growth/options/features in mind were I can easily do so with little impact to cost or timing. Even sometimes without the request from marketing and management.

I'm pretty sure the CSeries was at least designed for more than just the CS100/300. If that's the case then it wouldn't surprise me that at least part of the certification program will take this into consideration.

queb · Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:38 pm

It's a CRJ order, not Cseries, unfortunaly.

planemaker · Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 26):
thank you

You are welcome. On BNN, Cost to protect against Bombardier default surges, an analyst was quoted saying the market is "pricing in a bankruptcy scenario". This site is of related interest:
Bombardier Probability Of Bankruptcy.

YYZYYT · Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:23 pm

This just in: shake up at BBD's helm:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...ier-shakes-up-management-1.2954455

parapente · Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:44 pm

Time for Boeing to snap them up? (If its allowed)

ADent · Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 38):
Time for Boeing to snap them up? (If its allowed)

Boeing has been there, got the T-shirt back in the 80s.

What would they want with a new 717?

JHwk · Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 39):

A new 717 could fit in very well with the long term NSA plans, if that plane is shifted up in size.

The obvious problems are the same as the original 717 though...

mad99 · Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:28 pm

Anyone have any info on deliveries ??
Meaning the above says two new planes are coming out of the new fal but what's the rate for this year?

planemaker · Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 37):
This just in: shake up at BBD's helm:

And this as well...

WSJ: Bombardier Unveils New Leadership as Founding Family Steps Back

FP: Bombardier Inc CEO Pierre Beaudoin steps down in major shakeup at struggling plane maker

Globe: Pierre Beaudoin steps down as chief in dramatic Bombardier shakeup

Star: Bombardier makes dramatic changes at the top as challenges loom

Take your pick.

golfradio · Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:51 pm

Can we please keep this thread for discussing testing and production related information?

There was a separate thread opened to discuss the CEO change BBD's CEO Pierre Beaudoin Steps Down (by queb Feb 12 2015 in Civil Aviation)

And for all BBD related bashing, please feel free to open part 2 of the now archived thread CSeries General Discussion, (No Test/production) (by JoeCanuck Sep 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Quantos · Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:39 pm

Speaking of testing, I think they talked about evac testing that took place a little bit ago in front of Transport Canada, the FAA and EASA. I'm wondering who are the participants in such testing? Carefully selected employees? It must be quite an experience.

czbbflier · Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:33 am

Quoting Quantos (Reply 44):

Speaking of testing, I think they talked about evac testing that took place a little bit ago in front of Transport Canada, the FAA and EASA. I'm wondering who are the participants in such testing? Carefully selected employees? It must be quite an experience.

Employees from one of Bombardier's customers.

See this Video. Answered in less than 30 seconds.

Original post with video found here....

Quoting outoftheice (Reply 21):

Bombardier has released another video update today on the progress of the Cseries program. The video can be found here: http://cseries.com/cseries-program-u...ar-4/

Cheers!

parapente · Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 39):

A new 717 could fit in very well with the long term NSA plans, if that plane is shifted up in size.

The obvious problems are the same as the original 717 though...

NSA - That's the point. It's clear that it will have to be positioned 'bigger' than the present 737. It leaves a large(r) chunk below. a 100/300/500 family would fill that area leaving the NSA to pitch above.

But hey they may not want to revisit the segment - however trhis time it would be with a brand new state of the art aircraft rather than one that was past its sell by date.

Hell even Airbus might be interested (but I doubt it).

KarelXWB · Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:19 pm

Bombardier successfully completed the flutter testing program.

http://cseries.com/successfully-taki...-the-limit-flutter-test-completed/

Quantos · Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Does all flutter testing also apply to CS300?

PhilInBRN · Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 44):

Speaking of testing, I think they talked about evac testing that took place a little bit ago in front of Transport Canada, the FAA and EASA. I'm wondering who are the participants in such testing? Carefully selected employees? It must be quite an experience.

I've been told that LX flight attendants were participating in the evacuation tests.

ADent · Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 47):
Bombardier successfully completed the flutter testing program.

http://cseries.com/successfully-taki...-the-limit-flutter-test-completed/

And now they can use the normal FBW mode for all parts of the flight envelope.

Seems like that took a long time.

deltadawg · Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting JHwk (Reply 27):
What airlines want a plane with 108 seats and a 2000nmi range? In practical terms, it is the best replacement option for the 737-600 and A318, but that is an awfully small market. It is great from a customer perspective, and maybe as a large domestic bizjet, but how are they going to get the orders they need on the -100?

The -300 obviously has a deeper market potential as a 737-700 and A319 replacement/alternative, but is that going to be enough?

Starting to be nervous of Bombardier's prospects.

Rubbish. There are many potential customers out in the world today. DL now has 75+ 717's that they are leasing and the 717 is proving itself as a good move for DL. With that being said the 717's in their stable have an average age of around 12/13 years now. Once the C100/300 move into EIS it would be about the right time for an airline such as DL to start shopping for a new replacement. Where would they go.....Boeing, no. Airbus, no. Embraer, no, not big enough. Mitsubishi, same as Embraer so no. BBD....yes. I believe most airlines are taking a wait and see approach and once the C Series leaves the tarmac we will start seeing more customers come to Mirabel.

There are other potential airlines out there in similar situations that could and will employ the CSeries. When BBD rolls out the C500 it will further cement their place as a mainline airline producer. It's always hard going up against established giants in an industry but with good thought and ideas put in place they will thrive. Whether or not A or B buys them is another thing altogether.

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