Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine

bw50505 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:22 pm

Very sad, the fact they are claiming responsibility leaves even less doubt than what many already suspect. My thoughts go out to the passengers and crew.

Web500sjc · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 147):

Can you tell the difference between a a320 and 777 at cruise altitude? The only similarity is that tey have 2 engines....

When I see an airplane in cruise, the only thing I can determine is the amount of engines, everything else is pure speculation.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:23 pm

First MH17 wreckage?

http://twitter.com/RT_com/status/489804938470375425/

fatmirjusufi · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:23 pm

The Telegraph is reporting that MH17 believed to have been shot down by a BUK missile.

Source: http://goo.gl/E6d3dm

9VSIO · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting N776AU (Reply 143):
Do Malaysia and Russia have any beef with each other?

Not as far as I'm aware. The Royal Malaysian Air Force uses Russian hardware...

wxmeddler · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Horrible, just devastating, for everyone.
Reuters Top News @Reuters
#BREAKING: Emergency Ministry official on site says body parts scattered around up to 15 km from crash site, at least 100 bodies seen

Miami · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Wreckage of MH17

BlueSky1976 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 113):
Why would Russians do that

That's why:

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294232/...ute_ran_near_ukrainian_il76_source

Quote:
"A source in the South operational command told Censor.NET "that the fire at the airliner was opened from the area occupied by the terrorists and Russian mercenaries - there are no Ukrainian air defense forces or Ukrainian troops there."

According to the source the route of the Malaysian plane ran close to Ukrainian military transport IL-76, which was transporting relief goods to the blocked Ukrainian troops. A source in the Defense Ministry believes that the Russian defense gave an order on shooting down the Ukrainian aircraft but due to an error the missile hit a civilian airplane. Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n294232 Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n294232

Separatists and Russians need to give up their weapons and stop their terrorist activities there, before it escalates into a full-scale war.

[Edited 2014-07-17 09:27:12]

b777erj145 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 81):
Why focus only on Russian separatists? Why couldn't the Ukrainian govt itself have done it

Bcs they have done this before with KE 7 and what, also, news agency reporting last week with a cargo plane

AT · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 150):
First unconfirmed picture of a part of the fuselage on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/489804938470375425/photo/1

What is that black circle just left of the the door?

LH648 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Week ago overflying Donetsk on LH648 I was thinking, what a hell we are flying over combat area?...

CALMSP · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting N776AU (Reply 143):

if not much of a beef before, i'm sure a very large piece of beef now.

777boi · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:26 pm

This is just the worst news ever! Being an ex-flight attendant, my heart goes out to all the families of the passengers and crew! What would have been an exciting time for the passengers going on a holiday (or going home) and for the crew returning home to see family after a long time away, I cant imagine the heart break! RIP to everyone on board!

Aesma · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 85):
Why focus only on Russian separatists? Why couldn't the Ukrainian govt itself have done it, given that it needs to a sophisticated SAM to intercept at 33k ft, and not shoulder mounted SAM. And they need a radar to accurately track the flying object and shoot it. Given that Russia is the current "bad guy" out there per western media, everyone is quick to jump on them.

Shooting down anything flying that high doesn't make sense in the context of that war. Now if you have somebody untrained at the commands of a sophisticated SAM system, anything is possible.

But yes the three sides in the conflict could be responsible.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
The odds are simply to high for this to be random. Not possible.

Did you actually compute those odds ? How many planes, from how many companies, fly in the vicinity of the crash site, for starters ?

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 108):
KNX said that an advisor to the Ukrainian Interior Minister said it was the separatists, but that there had been no claim of responsibility.

Well nobody is gonna claim that gigantic mistake, the separatists have been called terrorists, since nowadays anybody you're fighting has to be a terrorist, but they're really not that kind of terrorists.

shortstack81 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 145):
This may be a serious ATC fail. According to several reports, the airspace over the Donbass region was closed to all traffic since Monday. If so, a couple of questions: 1) Was this route on the original filed flight plan? 2) Was the flight directed over this region if the airspace was supposedly off limits?

if that airspace was closed the word must not have been out. saw quite a bit of commercial traffic on flightradar.

slinky09 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 156):
Wreckage of MH17

The pictures that are alledgely being uploaded via Twitter are certainly consistent with a mid-air break up rather than an intact airliner hitting the ground. That certainly implies an explosion, either bomb or missile.

Unfortunately I predict a major international incident is about to blow up. A very sad day.

readytotaxi · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

A litle bit of missile background.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Quoting mrcomet (Reply 76):
If so, Russia is in deep sh#t because there is no way a Ukrainian separatist gets his hands on one of those through the black market.

And the training to use it?

From what is coming out this far it seems that boths sides want to muddy the water very quickly.

Cipango · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting boefan (Reply 135):
Malaysia Airlines 9M-MRD last photo before crash taken today during take off at AMS

http://twitter.com/airchive/status/4...89216

Oh my god this is incredibly eerie.

I am shocked by this and nearly refuse to believe it.

All those on board have been taken so needlessly and are helpless victims to the Ukrainian crises.

RIP to all the passengers and crew.

na · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 113):
Why would Russians do that, no body wins from a Malaysian airplane going down in Ukraine.

I doubt officials Russians did it. And I doubt separatists would do such knowingly.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 152):
When I see an airplane in cruise, the only thing I can determine is the amount of engines, everything else is pure speculation.

But the sound of a propeller driven Antonov and a 777 is huge. Also I would expect that soldiers with a massive rocket able to fire so high would have binoculars to avoid grave mistakes.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 152):
Can you tell the difference between a a320 and 777 at cruise altitude? The only similarity is that tey have 2 engines....

I can. But I do not expect that more than 1% can.

YYZYYT · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 59):
To be honest I'm a bit surprised that there are still airliners flying there given the events in recent days.

Quoting moo (Reply 88):
If indeed it was a Ukrainian separatist group that fired the missile - it could have been a Ukrainian military unit that was not aware of any civil overflights in the area reacting to heightened tensions regarding alleged Russian downing of Ukrainian aircraft recently, and reports of Russian aircraft incursions into Ukrainian airspace.

We know far far too little at the moment to come to any conclusions.

Could such a SAM be fired at one aircraft, but lose the lock and track in on aiother instead? If there were military aircraft in the area, it is entirely plausible that a SAM might be fired in the at one of these, not realizing that a passenger jet was passing in the area.

tonyban · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:29 pm

This is about the most sickening news I've heard. RIP to all those that have perished. This is insane !

Vio · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:29 pm

My goodness!!! Pictures of bodies on Twitter. It seems that they're somewhat intact, which tells me that the plane did not completely disintegrate (the same way ValueJet did)

ORDfan · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 146):
. But if this was shot down, as it appears somewhat likely it was, this could have huge political ramifications, especially because it is likely there were lots of Europeans and possibly Americans on this flight. Tensions between Russia and Europe/North America are already high - if it is determined the Russians shot this down, it's gonna get worse. I don't think it will escalate this far but wars have been started for less.

Fair point, however it must be noted that it's possible Ukrainian rebels may have shot this flight down - in which they are not technically Russians, and of course not "agents" of the Ukrainian government either. If this proves to be true, we may have a situation (potentially for the first time) in which "civilians" have shot down a large commercial airliner (RIP to the pax/crew). Who/what would bear the responsibility if this ends up being the case maybe prove to be incredibly murky and unsatisfactory in any regard.

joeytaffy93 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:32 pm

Such sad news. I couldn't believe it when I saw a friend post it on Facebook!

R.I.P. to all involved and prayers with their families.

Aleksandar · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:32 pm

All I can say is "poor people".....and I do hope it is not the deliberate case of shooting down civilian jet.

Rara · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 132):

Probably very busy in airlines' operations centers right now rerouting all the flights to SE Asia....

They're just rerouting planes a bit further south towards the Crimea, you can see it on Flightradar.

By the way, that's a busy route for A380s. If the plane was indeed shot down, it could easily have been an A380 with a much higher death toll.

martinair50 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:33 pm

Many cruel pictures floating around on Twitter. Also there was a Dutch passport found.

daus · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 155):
source in the Defense Ministry believes that the Russian defense gave an order on shooting down the Ukrainian aircraft but due to an error the missile hit a civilian airplane.

I don't know the capabilities of that particular missile system but once the missile's seaker starts looking for the target there is no guarantee which target it's going to pick. This scenario makes the most sense to me.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting boefan (Reply 128):
Malaysia Airlines 9M-MRD last photo before crash taken today during take off at AMS

Here it was at the gate today:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...03252.21333.100003825135026&type=1

PA110 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 176):
By the way, that's a busy route for A380s. If the plane was indeed shot down, it could easily have been an A380 with a much higher death toll.

According to FR24, at the time of the incident, MH3 was just passing only slightly to the south of the same region.

EVAAIRBR076 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:37 pm

[quote=KarelXWB,reply=179][/a person posted this at his facebook before he got onboard of this flight, with the comment "in case this plane disapears, it looks like this"

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 176):
By the way, that's a busy route for A380s. If the plane was indeed shot down, it could easily have been an A380 with a much higher death toll.

MH3 (an A380) was just behind MH17.

flyingturtle · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:38 pm

Does the Buk missile have an IFF, a friend-foe identification system?

Because it has been continuously developed since 1979, I think so.

But if it were separatists, they may not have the necessary professionality and "coolness" to actually use the IFF. Just my thoughts.

David

enilria · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 164):
Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
The odds are simply to high for this to be random. Not possible.

Did you actually compute those odds ? How many planes, from how many companies, fly in the vicinity of the crash site, for starters ?

Quoting Rara (Reply 118):
Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
The odds are simply to high for this to be random. Not possible.

Nonesense, of course it's possible. If it was really shot down, do you think the perpetrators checked the airline and aircraft type first? Horrible coincidence, if that is what happened.

MH has 12 777 aircraft. That's nothing. There has to be a common thread, such as...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 124):
Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
Is it more likely that the plane descended for some reason (mechanical) and that resulted in it getting shot down? Is that a more likely scenario?

It's possible but I would expect someone, maybe ATC, to have already tweeted or called a radio/TV to tell us about distress calls etc.

It looks to me like the plane was off course...

Quoting Rara (Reply 118):
Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
The odds are simply to high for this to be random. Not possible.

Nonesense, of course it's possible. If it was really shot down, do you think the perpetrators checked the airline and aircraft type first? Horrible coincidence, if that is what happened.

Either that or MH are simply idiots are were flying through a restricted zone and possibly that is the common thread with the earlier accident. There has to be one.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 125):

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 114):
if this was sent out, blame will be put on MH for failing to adhere to this warning.

The NOTAM defined an area - was issued via UK AIS. I'm afraid I haven't looked up the exact area defined.

Exactly...

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 133):
The rebels are claiming credit for the shoot down via Twitter.

I'd assume they'd claim credit if a bird fell from the sky.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 135):
It's an assumption that the civilian airliner was in fact the identified target if this is what happened.
The SA-11 isn't updated once it's fired. If it picked up the wrong target... that slow moving huge radar target instead of say the low flying military aircraft....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 140):
This may be a serious ATC fail. According to several reports, the airspace over the Donbass region was closed to all traffic since Monday.

Exactly

na · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:38 pm

9M-MRD is the plane that once carried the beautiful blue special "Heliconia" livery.

SXDFC · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 179):
Here it was at the gate today:

Looks like Romeo Charlie..

Regardless of what caused the plane to go down, we now have to take time to mourn the loss of those on board, and ultimately the loss of Malaysia Airlines...

mrcomet · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:39 pm

Ukrainian sources are reporting that separatists had announced around 5 pm that they had shot down a Ukrainian military jet. The plane crashed in separatist held territory. The fear is they will try to destroy evidence. A Buk SAM system is suspected.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-government-confirms-crash-of-malaysian-plane-in-donbas-356

[Edited 2014-07-17 09:40:37]

TheSonntag · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 189):
Does the Buk missile have an IFF, a friend-foe identification system?

Civilian airliners dont have IFF anyway?

CityhopperNL · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:40 pm

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 177):
Also there was a Dutch passport found.

I live in Asia and the main occupants of MH are not Malaysians simply because this is a country where people don't have so much financial means to fly compared to other countries. On the Malaysian 777 that went missing earlier this year to Beijing, it was mostly Chinese on board the plane - people from the destination airport. It's holiday season now. Just guess from which country the most people on board MH17 would have been... Really really horrified by this incident, and for the love of god, I hope these pictures will be removed from the internet.

Aesma · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting ORDfan (Reply 172):
in which they are not technically Russians

"Not Russians" like the "non Russians" that invaded Crimea ? Because those were Russians. And of course Putin gives Russian passports to almost anybody asking for one.

difrano789 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

It was shoot down. Debries match an in flight break apart. Shame on modern aviation.

Boeing717200 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 161):
TW800 was shot down. We just don't conclusively know by whom.

Put away your tin foil hat.

Quoting vio (Reply 172):
My goodness!!! Pictures of bodies on Twitter. It seems that they're somewhat intact, which tells me that the plane did not completely disintegrate (the same way ValueJet did)

ValuJet had an onboard fire. If this were hit by a missile, anything caught in the explosion would be completely fragmented, the rest would be in larger pieces.

CrimsonNL · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 193):
Looks like Romeo Charlie..

It's MRD. The paint on the right nose-gear door was faded

Martijn

ytz · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Lots of ignorance here about SAMs and targeting chain works....

I certainly would not rule out an accidental firing.

AT · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Why are there people climbing over the debris? Shouldn't this be a protected area both out of respect and for investigative integrity?

Also agree with the posters above- posting pictures of the fuselage is fair game, butt those of passengers is not.

Our utmost sympathies to loved ones of the passengers and crew.

Web500sjc · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Apparently the CNN feed at airports is censored against airplane crashes- currently at ORD and they are talking about the curiosity mars rover. Meanwhile the fire department is running drills on their simulators.

Quoting na (Reply 167):

I thought airplanes are quite enough that most people couldn't hear an airplane at cruise any more?

danman132x · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Rest in peace to all those aboard. This truly breaks my heart

Very sad day.

AeroWesty · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:43 pm

This is such a sad and regrettable event, whatever its cause. I hope we don't see more photos posted of dead bodies embedded into posts. People can seek those out on the internet easily if they want to, rather than by scrolling through the main thread on a.net.

RIP to those who lost their lives in this crash.

Quantos · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:43 pm

Without immediately jumping to the "shot down" conclusion, it seems from the pictures and bits of information (as unreliable as it is) that parts of the plane are spread over a decently large area. At the very least this would seem to be a mid-air break up, then. If it wasn't shot down, this would suggest a major flaw with the aircraft (or crew, but how would actions of the crew cause a mid-air break up?).

TheSonntag · Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:43 pm

Quoting mrcomet (Reply 194):
Ukrainian sources are reporting that separatists had announced around 5 pm that they had shot down a Ukrainian military jet. The plane crashed in separatist held territory. The fear is they will try to destroy evidence. A Buk SAM system is suspected.

However, this comes from an Ukrainian Source. I do not want to play devil's advocate, but I rather not believe anything anymore.

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