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jetblueguy22
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Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:09 pm

Hi All,

The previous thread became quite long so Part 2 has been created to continue the conversation.

We ask that you please be respectful to the victim's families. In addition do NOT post pictures of the crash site if they contain victims. We ask that you link to them with a warning.


Thanks you for your cooperation.

Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:13 pm

I fear this may inflame the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner anyway?
 
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Vio
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
We ask that you please be respectful to the victim's families. In addition do NOT post pictures of the crash site if they contain victims. We ask that you link to them with a warning.

Thank you! We don't need to see that. Those are people with families and friends...
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
jreuschl
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 1):
I fear this may inflame the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner anyway?

Was this the target? Could they have intended something else? Or assumed this was a different plane?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS3

The A380 MH has was in Ukraine, too.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:15 pm

Transaero says it will avoid Ukraine airspace.

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/489819209455915009
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
VeeCee
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:15 pm

I think someone was requesting this:
 
wxmeddler
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Is is possible for US or other nation's heat detecting satellight/ missile warning systems to identify where a missile (if any) was launched from?
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 3):
The A380 MH has was in Ukraine, too.

What was it doing there?
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 6):
Is is possible for US or other nation's heat detecting satellight/ missile warning systems to identify where a missile (if any) was launched from?

I read earlier today that they would indeed be able to pull this from satellite data.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 3):
The A380 MH has was in Ukraine, too.

I just can't imagine the A380 crew's feelings when it gets the news... hopefully after leaving Ukrainian air space.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Vio
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 1):
Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner anyway?

This was probably some idiot on the ground saying "Hey, PLANE!!!... SHOT IT DOWN!!!" without really thinking too much about it....
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 3):
Was this the target? Could they have intended something else? Or assumed this was a different plane?

It seems like a case of, "Shoot first, investigate later."
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 6):
Is is possible for US or other nation's heat detecting satellight/ missile warning systems to identify where a missile (if any) was launched from?

Any word on which side of the border the missile was launched from?
 
yvrtoyyz
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting VeeCee (Reply 5):
I think someone was requesting this:

Yes, but the planned/filed route with the airways and waypoints was the actual request.
 
AF1565
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Will airlines route their flights around Ukraine instead of flying through it?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Many airlines are now avoiding the Ukraine airspace.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswxlGYCEAAKDmj.png:large
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
NASBWI
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 7):
What was it doing there?

My guess would be that it may have been using a similar airway as flt 17. AMS and LHR are pretty much along the same lines of latitude, and both flights departed at the same time.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 7):
What was it doing there?

Flying from London to KL.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 18):
My guess would be that it may have been using a similar airway as flt 17. AMS and LHR are pretty much along the same lines of latitude, and both flights departed at the same time.

Do MH A380 have Wifi? Otherwise will the crew communicate this to the passengers? I can't imagine they learning while getting mobile coverage just while landing in KUL and getting news alerts, SMS or emails.
 
slinky09
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 3):
The A380 MH has was in Ukraine, too.

It's chilling to think that, if this were a missile, the next aircraft could have been an A380.

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 12):
Any word on which side of the border the missile was launched from?

A good question, if it was a missile, the assumption has been that it was Ukrainian rebels. However, what if it was fired from the Russian side of the border?
 
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cjg225
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:23 pm

Unreal...

Regardless of whether there were any government-imposed restrictions, you'd think commercial airlines would have avoided this area out of common sense.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:24 pm

Igor Strelkov, Russian rebel leader in East-Ukraine, confirmed they shot down what they thought was a Ukrainian military plane.

http://twitter.com/mtrimpe/statuses/489805514826862593
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:24 pm

Didn't Ukraine close part of its airspace due to the situation there? I could have sworn I read it somewhere...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
NDiesel
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:26 pm

As just said by the NTSB on CNN, ICAO need to demand immediate and safe access to the area for investigators. Pro-Russian separatist better damn well grant them that as soon as possible, unless they have something to hide. Which they very well might have...
Delta MD-11 JFK-CDG - Upon sunrise I fell in love with aviation
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 6):
Is is possible for US or other nation's heat detecting satellight/ missile warning systems to identify where a missile (if any) was launched from?

They will certainly be looking at all possible data.

If they had the right equipment focused on the area, and if there was not too much other activity which might confuse the tracking - they could tell where it was launched from.

Might even be able to have copies of radio (cell phone) and ground telephone traffic to see what if anything was ordered, and if anyone thought it might be a civilian aircraft. Again - if the right intelligence gathering assets were in the area.

If not - no luck.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Mir
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 210):
URRV V6158/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST
DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320.




UUWV V6159/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST
DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A493 LIRSI-LEMBO,
G915 AGNIN-FORMA,
A131 BODRO-FORMA,
A236 LULED-LUMAT,
R371 LUMAT-LEMBO,
R371 BELIB-KUBOK,
G372 BODRO-BELIB,
A97 TUMIT-NALEG,
R363 ANIGI-KUBOK,
R368 SOMUM-KUBOK,
A279 RASAP-KUBOK,
B921 ROGLA-GOBUN,
B110 RASAP-GOBUN,
G476 RASAP-MASOL,
R374 TUMIT-KANON,
B231 TERBUNY NDB (TE)-KANON,
R808 KOROT-KANON,
B145 BUTRI-KANON.
FM SFC UP TO FL200
SFC / FL200

Upon further review of these, they are all in Russian airspace and not Ukrainian airspace, so the flight wasn't violating them even if they were below the published altitudes (which it appears they weren't).

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 243):
Apparently some passengers on tonight KLM AMS-KUL do not want to fly

I don't blame them at all. I'm sure KLM will do the right thing and offer them refunds or the ability to change their travel dates without penalty.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 249):
Or it's a hole where the blank has been smashed out as a result of falling from 30,000ft.

Still doesn't look like the right size, though.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 22):
Didn't Ukraine close part of its airspace due to the situation there? I could have sworn I read it somewhere...

Ukraine closed some of the airspace over Crimea, but not eastern Ukraine.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 20):
Unreal...

Regardless of whether there were any government-imposed restrictions, you'd think commercial airlines would have avoided this area out of common sense.

Indeed. Some did, Finnair just released a statement saying they have been avoiding Ukrainian air space for a long time already.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Dutch passports have been recovered  

http://oi59.tinypic.com/210zxbn.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
wingflex744
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):

Many airlines are now avoiding the Ukraine airspace.

including the same MH with flight 21 (MH A380 CDG KUL) performing a drastic route change to avoid at all the Ukrainian airspace

http://www.flightradar24.com/MAS21/3d60399
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today...it's already tomorrow in Australia!
 
hivue
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 20):
Regardless of whether there were any government-imposed restrictions, you'd think commercial airlines would have avoided this area out of common sense.

Are you recommending the airlines avoid the Middle East?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
willd
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 1):
fear this may inflame the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

The BBC are reporting that both the White House and Downing Street are being very cautious about making any comment until they are 100% about what has happened due to the huge political ramifications of this very sad event. According to the BBC the UK Government and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are in touch with Kiev, Moscow, The Hague (for a co-ordinated EU response) and KL.

The sad thing about all of this is that already the both sides (pro Russians/pro Kiev) are already claiming it was the other side and not them.

Quote:
Why would they shoot down a Malaysian airliner anyway?

It would seem to be a case of mistaken identity.

This is a truly sad incident. My thoughts are with the families.
 
SuperCaravelle
Posts: 263
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 23):
As just said by the NTSB on CNN, ICAO need to demand immediate and safe access to the area for investigators. Pro-Russian separatist better damn well grant them that as soon as possible, unless they have something to hide. Which they very well might have...

They already posted all kind of celebratory reactions immediately after, all of them pulled after it turned out to be the 777 instead of a Ukrainian freighter.
 
JMGRIFFIN
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Many airlines are now avoiding the Ukraine airspace.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswxlGYCEAAKDmj.png:large



Very interesting graphic, I wonder if a lot of flights are seeing increased flying time due to this?
 
Basefly
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:30 pm

SK Scandinavian Airlines is saying that they have been avoiding that airspace for quite some time.
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:31 pm

I just saw this link of a Russian TV channel. There are some images I haven't seen before. The vertical stabilizer can be seen pretty intact. Beware because some images are not very nice and quite tasteless (I wonder which is the information in showing passports of Dutch children).

http://lifenews.ru/watch-live
 
ozark1
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:31 pm

With all the reports of increased security in Europe at this time, is an explosive device onboard a possibility?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:31 pm

MH21 is re-routing.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/mkixxv.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:32 pm

Reports (unconfirmed) that 23 US citizens were on board.
 
daus
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 5:37 am

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 23):
Pro-Russian separatist better damn well grant them that as soon as possible

I would guess any "Separatists" who know anything about the missile launch have suddenly just been "killed in battle" (shot by their Russian minders).
 
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ER757
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 23):
As just said by the NTSB on CNN, ICAO need to demand immediate and safe access to the area for investigators.

Demanding it and getting it may well be two different things unfortunately.

What terrible news this is. Agree with previous posters that have stated photos of bodies should be off limits. It's just incredibly insensitive to the victims' families. Thoughts and prayers to the MH staff and the relatives of those lost in what appears to be a senseless act of violence.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:34 pm

Russia has some 240 of These Missile Systems, the Ukraine has 60 and the rebels, should we now say terrorists, captured one recently.

Looks like they aimed at a lower flying Ukrainian Transport or fighter and the Bug Missile sought another target instead. Happens when you have drunk idiots manning such Systems they do not have proper Training for.

100 years ago such incidents would have sparked a world war and I am not sure what is happening now if Putin does not put an end to the terrorists in eastern Ukraine. He's the only one who has the power to do that and he better does.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 29):
Quoting cjg225 (Reply 20):
Regardless of whether there were any government-imposed restrictions, you'd think commercial airlines would have avoided this area out of common sense.

Are you recommending the airlines avoid the Middle East?

Are you suggesting that the entire Middle East is a war zone where planes are being shot down regularly???

In any case, I hope international pressure prevails on Russia and whoever is responsible is brought to book. Sad that so many people died un-necessarily. RIP
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Part147
Posts: 386
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RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:35 pm

How terrible, just a terrible day.

Why wouldn't they leave all the passports with their owners? Surely gathering them up like this will make identifying them more difficult?

Anyway, I am so shocked and horrified by this terrorist behaviour. My thoughts are with all those who have been touched by this despicable tragedy.
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
by188b
Posts: 561
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:46 am

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 7):
What was it doing there?


It was on its normal route, you can see Thai, Singapore and others on the Europe-Asia routings
next flights : LHR-SOF BA, SOF-DOH-KAT QR, KAT-HKG KA, HKG-LHR VS, LHR-ATH-LHR BA, LHR-CDG-LHR AF, LHR-MAD-LHR IB/BA
 
Alitalia744
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:36 pm

News in Italy is reporting it was shot down air-to-air, not from the ground.

Just adding what things are being said.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:36 pm

If the aircraft had WiFi, the crew would likely turn it off to avoid panic in the air.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 18):
I can't imagine they learning while getting mobile coverage just while landing in KUL and getting news alerts, SMS or emails.

That's how it has always been.

It is not more shocking to get such news on approach / right after landing than it is to have a microphone and TV camera thrust in your face walking out of the airport and being asked "How does it feel knowing the American DC-10 taking off right after your flight crashed on takeoff in Chicago?"

Or - "How does it feel knowing the 9/11 hijackers were on another UA plane right next to yours?"

I've been in an airport when all the TV monitors started showing a live shot of the smoking ruins of an aircraft crash. And suddenly all the TVs across the airport started being turned off.

Only created more rumors and uneasiness. Especially when the gate agents start shutting down cages, and leave crying.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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sturmovik
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:05 am

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 44):
News in Italy is reporting it was shot down air-to-air, not from the ground.

Could you post a link or translation? The media worldwide are quite useless when it comes to reporting technical facts on aviation and military topics. Could be a mistake too..
'What's it doing now?'
 
willd
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:38 pm

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting jmgriffin (Reply 32):
Very interesting graphic, I wonder if a lot of flights are seeing increased flying time due to this?

Of course they are. A quick look on Flightradar (which is very slow at the moment, I am guessing because all the journalists are using it as well) shows numerous aircraft re-routing and having longer flight times. A quick search shows SQ 380 from LHR, AI flights from LHR to DEL and BOM and the MH flight from CDG have all re-routed.
 
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KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:39 pm

Turkish Airlines says its flights will avoid Ukraine airspace.

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/489822137793142784
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
KLAXAirport
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:14 pm

RE: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:40 pm

May The Lord be with the families of the their lost loved ones.

EK 171 to Kiev is returning back to Dubai.

http://www.flightradar24.com/UAE171/3d64c9d

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   

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