Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 2

United787 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting paparadzi (Reply 143):

I'm saddened by what happened to my colleagues on MH 17. Just flew Romeo Delta last Sunday.

At this moment I'm in shock, speechless and traumatic. I've seen the crew list, and I know all the technical crew personally as well as some of the cabin crew.

May they all rest in peace.

I am sorry for your loss. May your colleagues and their passengers rest in peace.

Klaus · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 120):
When the plane was just first reported out of contact - rebels in the area announced that they had shot down a transport aircraft. Then once the destruction of the MH aircraft was confirmed, the rebels have removed all reference to shooting down an aircraft today from their web sites.

At least on (western) public social networks erasing messages should only make them invisible to the public – they should still be on record in the databases internally, so a legitimate investigation of a crime such as this one should be able to access even "removed" posts to Twitter et al. If there are indeed such posts claiming responsibility before they realized their mistake, those should be recoverable.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 132):
A war is about to erupt after this.

You mean in addition to the one already waged in Ukraine? I doubt that.

Putin knows that the entire campaign against Ukraine has just been damaged irrecoverably and that the only thing he can salvage from it is Krimea (at considerable cost) and his own political skin (if that).

I expect Russia to be ultra-cooperative and to let the air out of the insurgency.

Quoting Slider (Reply 137):
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 103):
Fox is reporting Pro Russian separatists have found the black boxes.

Which means it'll never be seen from again.

Theoretically that is possible. But even the most seasoned specialists would have a hard time twisting the recordings to their liking in the very short time they'll have them on their hands, especially with any hope of evading detection. If Russia should refuse to hand them over to Malaysia, it would effectively amount to an admission of guilt, which I doubt Russia to risk.

I rather expect them to apply the hot potato principle to the recorders, handing them over at the earliest possible opportunity.

pvjin · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

It would be an unbelievably bad idea for the Ukrainians to try assassinate Putin by shooting his plane down. I don't think Putin's plane was anywhere near MH17 anyway.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...7/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

It seems like MH17 has normally flown more southern route than it did this time, I think bad weather made the aircraft to choose more northern route, directly over rebel held area...

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

Four engines versus two, nearly impossible to miss.

[Edited 2014-07-17 12:19:33]

willd · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 144):

Emirates has suspended flights to Kiev.

They announced that on 2 July. Suspension is nothing to do with this incident.

Thunderboltdrgn · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
May have missed it earlier... but wasn't President Putin
returning from India about that time?

The presidential IL-96 has a gray bottom, and red and blue stripes along the sides.

The MH aircraft also has a gray bottom with red and blue stripes along the sides.

Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet
but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

CE

I don't know if he was but in that case why would Putin's plane fly over eastern Ukraine
rather then flying in Russian airspace?

WildcatYXU · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

And why would the presidential aircraft fly to the area? Or any aircraft flying from India to Moscow for that matter?

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:20 pm

Singapore Airlines SQ351 (B777) and Air India AI113 (B787) were about 25 km from MH17 when it disappeared.

http://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489843415002001408/

Klaus · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
May have missed it earlier... but wasn't President Putin returning from India about that time?

The presidential IL-96 has a gray bottom, and red and blue stripes along the sides.

The MH aircraft also has a gray bottom with red and blue stripes along the sides.

Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

It is certainly correct to consider the possibility of the other party in the civil war being responsible, but plausibility seems not to be on that side:

• Ukraine shooting down the russian president would accomplish next to nothing, except effectively declaring outright war against Russia (which does not look like such a great idea)

• wasn't the route of Putin's plane pretty far away from eastern Ukraine?

• why then such a shot in the separatist-held area?

• shouldn't the regular ukrainian troops be trained a bit better than just taking a pot shot at any random airliner in the sky?

• apart from the theory about Putin's plane, ukrainian troops would have no incentive to shoot at any aircraft at all, since they're the only ones with military planes in the area anyway

So while I think the thought should not be excluded outright, the ukrainian forces downing the airliner seems the least likely of all scenarios so far.

I expect sensor and other evidence to shed light on the launching spot of the missile soon in any case.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:22 pm

Piece of the tail fin has been found.

http://twitter.com/CassLGarrison/status/489831546728488960/

LAXdude1023 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 148):
Not sure what each of these planes would look like from the ground at 33k feet but could it have been an assassination attempt by the Ukrainians but got the wrong aircraft?

Because the Ukrainian border is on the way from India to Moscow?

United787 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 158):
Singapore Airlines SQ351 (B777) and Air India AI113 (B787) were about 25 km from MH17 when it disappeared.

I would bet that these pilots saw something and have already reported it since they were facing in the general direction of the MH plane...

Aither · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:25 pm

Maybe the coincidence is that it happened over a warzone and not that it's MH again.

billreid · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:25 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):

I am deeply saddened. Seeing a passport from Naarden Bussum disturbs me. This is insanity.
If Russia was in anyway involved then we may be headed into very tense times.

ek17 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting Manta (Reply 123):
Even more super creepy fact: The MH17 (9M-MRD) plane first flew on July 17, 1997 - 17 years ago today.

I hate how coincidences like this happen, the aircraft flew for the very first time 17 years ago today, on July 17, and the flight number was MH17, sadly they just happen.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 161):
Piece of the tail fin has been found.

Any info on how far it was away for the main crash site?

Aesma · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:29 pm

I just saw on Russia Today a reporter in the rebel area saying that the rebels are offering a 2-3 days truce to let investigators into the crash zone. I hope it will happen.

Quoting paparadzi (Reply 143):
I'm saddened by what happened to my colleagues on MH 17. Just flew Romeo Delta last Sunday.

At this moment I'm in shock, speechless and traumatic. I've seen the crew list, and I know all the technical crew personally as well as some of the cabin crew.

May they all rest in peace.

Sorry for your loss.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 152):
It seems like MH17 has normally flown more southern route than it did this time, I think bad weather made the aircraft to choose more northern route, directly over rebel held area...

It's possible. Here's the original flight path, showing how the aircraft adjusted course and headed towards the rebel held area:

dtw2hyd · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 157):
Singapore Airlines SQ351 (B777) and Air India AI113 (B787) were about 25 km from MH17 when it disappeared.

Where was RA96014 carrying Putin relative to 9M-MRD. Putin should be coming back from BSB.

VT-EVA carrying Indian Prime Minister en-route BSB-FRA-DEL also used Ukrainian airspace.

LordMontenegro · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting willd (Reply 154):
They announced that on 2 July. Suspension is nothing to do with this incident.

They're fully pulling out in August, but they just suspended all Kiev flights until further notice:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...ane-emirates-idUSKBN0FM2IK20140717

EVAAIRBR076 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting EK17 (Reply 164):

The debris is spread in a 5km radius, as they say on the news.

wingman · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:33 pm

I am very sad. I like people and I like airplanes. Death is bad.

n800nn · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:33 pm

does july 17 mean any thing elese to you guys

Viper911 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 29):
Are you recommending the airlines avoid the Middle East?

In some way they already do that, here at TLV planes approach now from the north and land on the newly opened rwy 21.
Departures take off from 08 and turn north as soon as airborne, in case of rocket attack on Tel Aviv area, they stop all incoming traffic and every single airplane is put on hold above the sea.

Viper911

scbriml · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 160):
Because the Ukrainian border is on the way from India to Moscow?

That and the fact that Putin returned to Moscow from Brazil, not India. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a conspiracy theory?

Klaus · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 169):
The debris is spread in a 5km radius, as they say on the news.

Spiegel.de says 15km; Either way this means the plane must have broken up at considerable altitude.

The separatists are said to have offered a ceasefire of three days for recovery operations (which of course would be much too short).

[Edited 2014-07-17 12:37:36]

SpaceshipDC10 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:36 pm

I wish such tragedy could have a positive impact in that conflict.

[Edited 2014-07-17 12:37:31]

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting n800nn (Reply 171):
does july 17 mean any thing elese to you guys

Yes, 9M-MRD made its first flight on July 17, 1997. It was exactly 17 years old.

http://tinyurl.com/lnl67gc

tu204 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:38 pm

For those blaming one side and not the other, I would remind you that the Ukrainian Air Force already has one sucessful shoot-down of a civilian aircraft in 2001. A T154 flying from Tel-Aviv to Novosibirsk.

Until more information is know it is stupid to make accuasations towards one side of a conflict.

All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

Aesma · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:39 pm

Some of the pictures seen repeatedly on Russia Today can't possibly be of a 777 crash site, we see much smaller engines, I'm guessing from the Ilyushin Il-76 that was shot down previously.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 174):
Spiegel.de says 15km; Either way this means the plane must have broken up at considerable altitude.

5 or 15 km, it doesn't really change the point.

speedygonzales · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 174):
Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 169):
The debris is spread in a 5km radius, as they say on the news.
Spiegel.de says 15km; Either way this means the plane must have broken up at considerable altitude.

Photos show the tail separate from the rest of the debris. This could mean that the tail separated on impact and fell relatively straight down, while the rest of the plane flew some distance before finally crashing.

Scipio · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm

Video from the crash site (somehow inverted):

(warning: most but not all of the bodies have been blurred out, passports of deceased passengers shown)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je0EVpxEwvY

Aesma · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

Only if you close your eyes and cover your ears, otherwise we have much more information, even coming from your "side".

bikerthai · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 158):

And besides what Klaus is saying . . .

Putin's plane, if it is anything like the US Presidential plane, would be much more difficult to shoot down, specially from 30,000ft.

This is because the self protection on the plane would have detected the missile long before impact and performed the necessary maneuver and deployed the necessary counter measures . . . and the Ukrainians would have known this.

bt

EVAAIRBR076 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:42 pm

Is Putin flying a T204?

alfa164 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
For those blaming one side and not the other, I would remind you that the Ukrainian Air Force already has one sucessful shoot-down of a civilian aircraft in 2001. A T154 flying from Tel-Aviv to Novosibirsk.

Until more information is know it is stupid to make accuasations towards one side of a conflict.

All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

We also know Russian sepratists have missles supplied by Russia... that those same separatists bragged about shooting down a plane today - only to remove those comments after learning that the MH airliner was downed. Maybe Russian news doesn't allow that information to be published, but in free societies it is readily available.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:43 pm

Someone captures a trail from the missile launch:

http://twitter.com/rrubanov/status/489808089936584704/photo/1

EVAAIRBR076 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 180):

no it doesnt, it just tells us it felt apart before impact. cause on the video u can see on internet u see a big fireball out of a sudden, but it may have felt apart before that.

Finn350 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
For those blaming one side and not the other, I would remind you that the Ukrainian Air Force already has one sucessful shoot-down of a civilian aircraft in 2001. A T154 flying from Tel-Aviv to Novosibirsk.

Until more information is know it is stupid to make accuasations towards one side of a conflict.

All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

The incident you refer to was over 10 years ago. The last time the separatists shot down a plane in eastern Ukraine using missiles supplied by Moscow was a few days ago.

I am quite confident why the plane crashed and if it indeed was shot down who shot it down can be established in a few days time.

davs5032 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):

For those blaming one side and not the other, I would remind you that the Ukrainian Air Force already has one sucessful shoot-down of a civilian aircraft in 2001. A T154 flying from Tel-Aviv to Novosibirsk.

Until more information is know it is stupid to make accuasations towards one side of a conflict.

All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

Well we do have strong evidence in the form of social media posts made by separatists basically claiming they'd shot the plane down, which they removed shortly after news of the crash.

mham001 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 27):
Dutch passports have been recovered

A looters paradise.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone. Thats it.

Actually, no, we know quite a bit more than that.

Maverick623 · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
For those blaming one side and not the other, I would remind you that the Ukrainian Air Force already has one sucessful shoot-down of a civilian aircraft in 2001.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 177):
All we know now is that an aircraft crashed in a war zone.

Russians might only know that, but the rest of us can see it for what it is.

scbriml · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 184):
Is Putin flying a T204?

No, Il-96. This has nothing to do with Putin's flight, which wouldn't have been anywhere near MH017.

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 181):
(warning: most but not all of the bodies have been blurred out, passports of deceased passengers shown)

Seeing the young faces on those passports is even worse than seeing a few bodies

bnatraveler · Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:47 pm

Hi All,

This thread has gotten quite long so Part 3 has been created. It can be found here Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 3 (by bnatraveler Jul 17 2014 in Civil Aviation).

All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

BNAtraveler

[Edited 2014-07-17 12:50:39]

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net