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76er
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:16 pm

Can't really remember where I read it, but appearently there were about 80 kids onboard. Many complete families have been wiped out.
 
RedChili
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:38 pm

The Norwegian TV channel NRK asked Flightradar24 to make a list of airplanes that has flown over this area during the past week. They came up with a list of 830 airplanes from 65 airlines.

The most common airlines in this area were:

Aeroflot 86 flights
SIA 75
Ukraine International 62
Lufthansa 56
MAS 48
Belavia 46
Thai 34
Air India 34
PIA 33
Jet 33

http://www.nrk.no/verden/flyselskapet-forsvarer-flyruten-1.11838663
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
antskip
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 212):
The most common airlines in this area were:

Aeroflot 86 flights
SIA 75
Ukraine International 62
Lufthansa 56
MAS 48
Belavia 46
Thai 34
Air India 34
PIA 33
Jet 33

Coincidence or design the plane destroyed was not Aeroflot?...

I find it hard to believe that even anyone shooting planes out of the sky would not first check the likely target via the web using one of the many free and readily accessible flight tracking sites. Especially if there is a very good chance the target is full of Russians on a Russian airliner...

[Edited 2014-07-18 16:30:07]

[Edited 2014-07-18 16:30:43]
 
rwessel
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 62):

Layman's analysis:

-From what I understand, Ukraine, according to intelligence reports, does no longer possess those BUK rocket systems.

Ukraine apparent had some 80 SA-11s. One or more of those are reported to be in rebel hands, The Ukrainian military still has the rest.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 62):
-The Airframe's debris is scattered along a large debris field, suggesting a breakup in flight.

Yes.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 62):
-The trajectory of the debris field seems to be the same as the flight heading (please of course correct me if I am wrong)

-From what I know from a college physics class, such a trajectory would probably be the result of a missile impacting the airframe, being launched from the direction which the plane is heading. In other words, the missile's heading must have been the opposite direction. if the impact was a side impact, the debris field would have been facing a different direction. Again, correct me if I am wrong.

No, the mass of the missile (some 700kg at launch, with a 70kg warhead) is insignificant compared to the mass of the aircraft, the impact (or forces from the exploding warhead) would not have appreciably altered the course of the aircraft, no matter the direction. As the aircraft lost control, it could well have altered course as it changed attitude (IOW, if you’re going to get an airliner to make a significant change in course, the forces are going to be coming from the wings, not from a missile 1/500th the mass). If relatively unaerodynamic bits break off, and just tumble down, they're just going to scatter along their original direction, with distances varying based on just how unaerodynamic they are.

Of course, a few small bits might be accelerated by the missile impact/explosion in odd directions (and explosions are well known to do odd things!). But there's still a very limited amount of energy available, so only a very small portion of the vastly larger aircraft could be tossed off in different direction by the missile hit.
 
trex8
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 217):
I find it hard to believe that even anyone shooting planes out of the sky would not first check the likely target via the web using one of the many free and readily accessible flight tracking sites. Especially there is a good chance the target is full of Russians on a Russian airliner...

Some NATO air forces cant even communicate with others (easily anyway) , USAF F22s can't distribute data to other USAF planes and you seriously think some yahoo separatist is going to check the internet???? It ain't like in Tom Clancy books or Mission Impossible movies.
 
transswede
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 217):
Quoting RedChili (Reply 212):
The most common airlines in this area were:

Aeroflot 86 flights
SIA 75
Ukraine International 62
Lufthansa 56
MAS 48
Belavia 46
Thai 34
Air India 34
PIA 33
Jet 33

Coincidence or design the plane destroyed was not Aeroflot?...

Some basic math allows us to calculate the change. 507 total flight, and 86 out of 507 is ~17% chance. Not a significant statistical number. Or do you have something you are trying to argue? Then state it, instead of putting out figures.

Quoting antskip (Reply 217):
I find it hard to believe that even anyone shooting planes out of the sky would not first check the likely target via the web using one of the many free and readily accessible flight tracking sites. Especially if there is a very good chance the target is full of Russians on a Russian airliner...

No, rebels/separatists/terrorists do not spend their time web surfing flight tracker web sites. Nor would I imagine that their connectivity is ideal. This incident alone should make that obvious.

[Edited 2014-07-18 17:18:19]
 
Turkish777X
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:34 am

Why is Malaysia Airlines still flying over Syria, don't know whether it is much safer than Ukraine at the moment.

MAS2 and MAS16 just crossed the syrian territories.
 
KirkSeattle
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 217):
Coincidence or design the plane destroyed was not Aeroflot?.

I hate to think of the outcome of this scenario. Russia would have immediately blamed Ukraine. No doubt there would be shooting first and asking questions on Ukraine. How about if it was the SQ flight or AI flight? Ugh, it's all unimaginable at this point.

I hope the thread can get back to the topic of the loss and murder of 298 souls on MH 17 instead of the latest argument on the use of the word THE in reference to countries.

CNN reporting Ukraine intelligence has video of a BUK system being moved back to the Russian border with one missle missing.

Multiple news outlets on looting of the crime scene.

CNN reporting on scene.

Armed Rebels not allowing EU investigators into the area (allowing just a small portion of the scene). Markings of the locations of passengers by some with sticks and white rags. CNN reporting locals not equipped to handle the situation on removing bodies and that it would be several more days.

Deplorable.

Murder, looting and disrespect. Uncle Vladimir might want to make a call to his cronies and allow some of the humane actions to take place for these innocent victims.
 
sailas
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:58 am

I was assigned in the military to the anti aircraft radar regiment, where i worked with a BUK M1 and a JOKE 05 in Finland. I was lucky enough to see the last one in action in 2009 during my service and know that a Buk can operate with just one vehicle. The missiles we had one the BUK M1 had explosive warheads costing 250,000€ each, being the reason Finland didn't want to keep them. But sure one group of BUKs is 3 or 4 tanks, one being radar, but each one is capable of shooting down aircraft on their own. When the plane came down i thought that the people who shot it down would need some serious equipment, and the BUK does indeed offer it. I did think of a oerlikon 35mm skyguard, but thought it would be too advanced and non existing in Ukraine or Russia.
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777Jet
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 217):
I find it hard to believe that even anyone shooting planes out of the sky would not first check the likely target via the web using one of the many free and readily accessible flight tracking sites.

I don't - especially not everybody. I believe the cowboy type rebels just assume anything flying over a war zone is fair game. However, to address your point, we may get quite a few new members signing up or have a few more guests browsing the forums and photos now that you have given them a way to better identify their targets  
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karadion
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 225):
MAS2 and MAS16 just crossed the syrian territories.

They're actually flying through Syrian (Assad) controlled space.
 
Turkish777X
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 231):
They're actually flying through Syrian (Assad) controlled space.

I think this is seriously more dangerous than avoiding the whole ukranian air space, which mostly is safe and under the control of the ukranian government - except the areas where the plane was shot down.
 
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propilot83
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:22 am

Take a look at this not too long ago radar map of flightradar24.com, seems like everyone except a few got the message regarding no fly zone over Ukraine. Not just the east part, but over the entire country almost. The only airlines are Russian or former Soviet Republic airlines flying over Ukraine....without any fear of being shot at.

http://www.flightradar24.com/48.68,31.5/6
 
karadion
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 232):
I think this is seriously more dangerous than avoiding the whole ukranian air space

Because? Assad isn't firing at aircrafts because he doesn't have to worry about attacks from above. ISIS would have to seize the arsenal of the Syrian's Buk in order to be a threat. But until then, it's been mostly Manpad's being fired at helicopters in Syria.
 
ltbewr
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:33 am

This MH17 disaster has caused an immediate NOTAM for the eastern region of Ukraine where it was shot down. Perhaps way too late, especially with attacks on aircraft in the region to limit supplies to the Ukrainian government.

Perhaps we need a revision of the NOTAM system, to take into stronger account risk areas like the Ukraine, a way to make sure flight programing systems can be set up with such NOTAM info to limit 'shortcuts' over risk areas, and yet appease the airlines to minimize flight distance and times, even when have to avoid weather.Perhaps pressure from insurers of the airline industry could be put on in terms of risk management and premium pricing to protect their interest, but most importantly, save lives.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:51 am

Quoting galleypower (Reply 45):
Just came in the german news ARD, video of MH17 falling out of the sky like a rock, nose down eng#2 on fire. Will try to get a link but it is embedded in the "ARD Morgenmagazin" Maybe somebody is faster, the video is out there.
Quoting galleypower (Reply 53):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 62):
That sounds like the video of the An-24/26 being shot down.

Nope, two big engines and you could clearly see the blue/red MAS design on the belly.

There's no such video. You're probably referring to this one which is a Ukraine Air Force An-30 that was shot down on June 6.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwzw1FE2nI
This aircraft:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20140606-0


There's another video of a Ukraine Air Force An-26 being shot down on July 14 but it's not as clear as the one above. It's of this aircraft.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20140714-0

[Edited 2014-07-18 19:15:36]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:53 am

Quoting malaysia (Reply 17):
Someone in the last thread said UTA was hit by libyan missile, but it was bombs placed on board and on purpose.

That was my reply. Thanks for the correction. I thought it was a missile.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:05 am

It's daybreak in Ukraine, and CNN is doing its first daylight reporting at the scene, for anyone interested.
International Homo of Mystery
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 214):
This MH17 disaster has caused an immediate NOTAM for the eastern region of Ukraine where it was shot down. Perhaps way too late, especially with attacks on aircraft in the region to limit supplies to the Ukrainian government.

In other words this MH17 incident has activated aviation's 'tombstone mentality'...  

It will not surprise me if something similar to this or KAL007 happens again some time in the future.

Things don't change until something bad happens and hindsight is applied - time goes on and people forget - things go back to how they were - bad things happen again...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
N126DL
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:21 am

On a different note, what is this portion of the aircraft? I have been mentally trying to place it and can't.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images...c4-0df9-11e4-b520-c4b498d9eaca.jpg
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odysseus9001
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:23 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 103):
RT

Isn't RT the same channel whose reporters keep resigning from well-paying jobs with the channel because they couldn't take the lying anymore?

I consume news from a wide variety of publications having sources from different sides on conflict. For example, I read both Haaretz and al Jazeera on Gaza, as you get a bit more combining the two--both have their biases, but they are not nearly as egregrious as RT.

RT is not a serious news source, though they are a very well financed one. However, it does have some usefulness in showing the dimensions of the bubble of denial Putin has put Russia in.

Russians should just admit they gave a very sophisticated weapon system to their irregulars, who shot without knowing what were shooting at, killing 300 people. Should we now worry they will transfer nuclear weapons to the rebels? I'm beginning to wonder.

J
 
F9Animal
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:27 am

There will no doubt be a nasty war out of this. I am pretty sure we will see Ukraine liberated by multi national forces in the near future. However, it does not heal the anger that is spreading very rapidly over this murder of 298 people. They will find those responsible. What I fear is, this could lead to a really bad crisis. Whatever the case, I hope there is revenge for those poor souls that were taken from us too soon.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
BestWestern
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:36 am

Whilst what has happened is terrible and deserves justice, the two faced responses by leaders on both sides is as typical as ever and is not solving the problem.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 222):
I am pretty sure we will see Ukraine liberated by multi national forces in the near future.

Liberated from whom - the Russian backed thugs or the Western backed thugs?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 222):
Whatever the case, I hope there is revenge for those poor souls that were taken from us too soon.

Revenge just propagates the problem.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
etops1
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting n126dl (Reply 220):

I am assuming that's the very back part of the 777. It looks like it came to rest upside down since the red paint is on the upper part . The opening you see is the horizontal stabilizer housing I believe .

[Edited 2014-07-18 19:54:10]
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting etops1 (Reply 224):
Quoting n126dl (Reply 220):

I am assuming that's the very back part of the 777. It looks like it came to rest upside down since the red paint is on the upper part . The opening you see is the horizontal stabilizer housing I believe .

That is exactly what it looks like to me. Just compare it to a pic of the end of a MH 777 and consider it being up-side-down and it looks very similar...
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trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:52 am

So did this plane send an ACARS message on its final descent? I' m not trying to be funny but with all the talk about ACARS with MH370. If a plane starts to freefall and have numerous system failures does this trigger ACARS?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 223):

Liberated from whom - the Russian backed thugs or the Western backed thugs?

Western backed thugs of course! Eastern backed thugs wouldn't be capable of pulling it off  
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Mir
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting etops1 (Reply 224):
Quoting n126dl (Reply 220):

I am assuming that's the very back part of the 777. It looks like it came to rest upside down since the red paint is on the upper part . The opening you see is the horizontal stabilizer housing I believe .

   And I believe the large metal piece in the foreground is part of the horizontal stabilizer structure (which goes through that opening).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N126DL
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:24 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 226):

Quoting etops1 (Reply 224):
Quoting n126dl (Reply 220):

I am assuming that's the very back part of the 777. It looks like it came to rest upside down since the red paint is on the upper part . The opening you see is the horizontal stabilizer housing I believe .

That is exactly what it looks like to me. Just compare it to a pic of the end of a MH 777 and consider it being up-side-down and it looks very similar...

Thought so! Originally thought the black things were the antennae usually found on wingtips but looks like cabling.

[Edited 2014-07-18 20:27:35]
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 231):

Amazing how an aircraft downed by Ukrainians

Glad that's settled. Thank you.......

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 223):
Revenge just propagates the problem.

Then replace the word "revenge" with "justice". If that's acceptable, anyhow.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 227):

With a strong American president like Reagan, we would represent the outraged world - tell Putin we are sending in the US military to secure the wreckage - tell Putin don't make any funny moves - and drone any "separatists" preventing access.

Get real.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 227):
Just my opinion, but sometimes you have to stand up to a bully by taking a stand. Putin would not dare attack a US-led force to secure the wreckage - even with a president as weak as Obama.

Or, perhaps we can create a true disaster by initiating war? And for what? No (one?) American on board. Not an American airline. Not in American territory. Not the responsibility of America. Not traveling to or from America.

Frankly, there are bigger fish to fry right now. We can't bring back the dead, and hopefully the families will get their remains. What more is there to do at this point?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:29 am

There were reports yesterday (on the first couple of threads on this topic I believe) that the death toll was in fact higher than just the souls on board the MH17 - that there were some people on the ground killed by falling wreckage (and fire?) I know that some of the footage of the various crash sites showed houses very close in the background.

I just wonder if anyone has seen any further update on this factor in this tragedy?

bb
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 227):
With a strong American president like Reagan, we would represent the outraged world - tell Putin we are sending in the US military to secure the wreckage - tell Putin don't make any funny moves - and drone any "separatists" preventing access.

Blocking access to the wreckage must not stand - including immediate militarly force to gain access.

Just my opinion, but sometimes you have to stand up to a bully by taking a stand. Putin would not dare attack a US-led force to secure the wreckage - even with a president as weak as Obama.

I hope you realize that the above will only happen in a science fiction novel, and that if the US decided to pull a stunt like that it would mean the end of the world as we know it right?

Putin will obliterate any military force, led by whomever, that attempts to even put an inch in Russian territory.

What does surprises me though, is the lack of any meaningful European reaction. Either they are still in shock or they are just not sure how to go about it yet.

Quoting baqnav (Reply 230):
The Dutch and Malaysians need to initiate and the rest of the civilized world will follow.

The Dutch just lost in an attack almost 200 of its citizens. At the very least they could have announced some sanctions. They probably can´t, due to being part of the EU, which goes to show how badly the EU is set up to deal with a crisis.

As for the Malaysians, listening yesterday in a press conference how much time they spent arguing that the "airspace was safe" instead of communicating anything useful, exactly the same reaction they had with MH 370, I seriously doubt both countries will initiate anything.
 
FlightShadow
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 234):
Not the responsibility of America.

American-made civilian airplane crash=NTSB sends a team. Not so sure how that works in a war zone, but it's not like the US has no business at all with what's going on.
"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
 
KirkSeattle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 217):
Do you really believe there is such a thing as "Ukraine intelligence"? It's an oxymoron, just as "Ukrainian military".

CNN reported, but take it as you will. And, don't get up all up in my kitchen about it, NEIGHBOR. Just stating what was reported on CNN. And, yes, I 'm watching Aljeezera US and BBC and CBC and, currently, avoid RT news. RT last night was appalling, even in English.
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting baqnav (Reply 230):
This isn't a US problem

Perhaps not the internal conflict in Ukraine, however, with the revelation that one passenger was an American citizen, this tragedy has certainly become a US problem. I surely hope we will become fully involved in helping to bring justice to the victims of MH17.
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:49 am

Quoting baqnav (Reply 230):
This isn't a US problem and the world is no longer Like Reagans. The Dutch and Malaysians need to initiate and the rest of the civilized world will follow.

  

I would have no problem if Malaysia turned around and said that 'the plane belongs to us and we are coming to get it and a full investigation will occur'. I believe the US and most of the world except for you know who would assist with this. If Russia stood in the way (I have just heard on the news that Russian-backed rebels forced investigators to leave after briefly allowing them access to the site) the I would have no problem with military action taking place. A Malaysian plane has come down in the Ukraine so anything Russia does to hinder the investigation should be dealt with by any means. Russia has been treated too softly for too long now. Putin was just shown on TV here having a go at what the Australian PM said but Putin must realize that the rest of the world does not care what he says. He has shown contempt to what others have said for so long and he is now on the receiving end. People will no longer listen to him just like how he disrespected others. I hope Malaysia initiate this as the plane belongs to them and hopefully the rest of those with an interest in this will follow. If Putin is allowed to control the area after all of this then the world has no hope...
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2175301
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:58 am

A horrible tragedy; and I hope a turning point politically

Quoting AR385 (Reply 236):
Putin will obliterate any military force, led by whomever, that attempts to even put an inch in Russian territory.

A few points:

1) An international led military force would not have to step into 1 inch of Russian territory. The international boarders are well known.

2) Did you perhaps notice the last few times that there have been direct battles between Russian weapon systems and Western weapon systems - like the people on one side said it was like target practice; and the kill ratios confirmed those statements. That is not just one engagement; but a series of them over the last several decades. Methinks the Russian Military would do all it could to avoid such a direct conflict of putting their tanks against our tanks, their air-force against our air-force, etc. Only in person to person larger troop engagements, which are rare, is their likely comparable forces.


Have a great day,
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:59 am

What flight is this? Was checking the airspace over the Ukraine with the current circumstances and found this.

LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 180):
Some mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits and dimwits have posted "proof" that there is a conspiracy.

No bounty hunters or Mexican agents, Hedley?  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:13 am

I have bumped into many disturbing images and videos on Russian portals.
Many of the corpses where charred or completely nude.
Lots of young kids, human limbs and bowels scattered along the impact area.
A Ukrainian woman found half a Dutchman in her kitchen garden, with his head engulfed into the ground.
It was a gruesome scene.
 
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airkas1
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 242):

That's the flight that brings the Malaysian team to the Netherlands. It is also supposed to be the aircraft that takes the next of kin to Ukraine if they so desire (to see the crash site).
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 245):
That's the flight that brings the Malaysian team to the Netherlands. It is also supposed to be the aircraft that takes the next of kin to Ukraine if they so desire (to see the crash site).

Thanks!
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 221):
RT is not a serious news source, though they are a very well financed one. However, it does have some usefulness in showing the dimensions of the bubble of denial Putin has put Russia in.

RT is so much fun to watch, staffed with all those 3rd rate western journos and desperate losers like Assange, basically modern equivalents of William Joyce, all playing useful idiots to Putin. Unfortunately some people are gullible enough to take them seriously.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 242):
What flight is this? Was checking the airspace over the Ukraine with the current circumstances and found this.

The already discussed charter flight sent for relatives of those who perished aboard the MH17?
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 240):
I would have no problem if Malaysia turned around and said that 'the plane belongs to us and we are coming to get it and a full investigation will occur'. I believe the US and most of the world except for you know who would assist with this.

I believe that Ukraine (or the rebels if we are considering them a independent state) has the role of leading the Investigation into the incident since the wreckage is on Ukrainian soil. notice the NTSB in Asiana 214 and the TSB in AF 358. In this case an investigation beyond the "it was shot down by a missile, and landed next to X" is going to be politically charged and seen as biased similar to the Russians or the rebels taking the lead investigator role.

My guess is that Ukraine, with the consultation of Russia, will ask an independent party like the NTSB, BEA or a similar organization to take the role of lead investigator.
Boiler Up!
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 241):
1) An international led military force would not have to step into 1 inch of Russian territory. The international boarders are well known.

I was not being literal. What I meant, was try getting an 1 inch into what Putin considers his sphere of influence, particularly Eastern Ukraine, where the wreckage lies, and the results would be the same.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 241):
2) Did you perhaps notice the last few times that there have been direct battles between Russian weapon systems and Western weapon systems

I see your point. But you may have have perhaps noticed that this is not about weapons systems. Russia is also not Iraq, or Afghanistan. The logistics of such an operation would be prohibitive and it would not mean an incursion to protect or gather wreckage. It would mean war. Many nations throughout the centuries have tried dealing militarily with the Russians. You´ve seen the results. I am also sure plenty of Americans would oppose such a war.

Some Russians may not like Putin, but they are going to like it much less to have a foreign military force threatening them. For whichever noble reason the West may deem it is. Russia also has nuclear weapons. And that fact alone makes me think that any idea of a military intervention in Eastern European soil directly against Russia is ludicrous.

Or do you really think Obama is "waiting for the results of a rigorous investigation to assign blame"? Every relevant government by now knows exactly what happened. Methinks those intercepted conversations are not the only ones they have recorded.

I am not defending Putin at all, but I am being realistic. Too many people these days are playing video games.
 
rwessel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:44 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 226):
So did this plane send an ACARS message on its final descent? I' m not trying to be funny but with all the talk about ACARS with MH370. If a plane starts to freefall and have numerous system failures does this trigger ACARS?

It's not impossible (and nobody's mentioned it yet, if it has), but depending on where the aircraft was, it might have been using either satcom or terrestrial communications. The former is fairly sensitive to attitude, and a sudden upset would likely interrupt communications for a while (and, of course, they didn't have too long at that point). While the ground based stuff is a lot less sensitive to attitude, it does still require power, and I would certainly expect major power disruptions on board during a major breakup like this. As it appears the tail separated, the APU wouldn't be available as a backup (and the batteries wouldn't power a secondary system like ACARS). And who knows if the engine would have kept running? They may well have, but then again, maybe not - if relatively undamaged modern engines will try very hard to keep running (witness the problem trying to shut down #1 after the QF11/A380 incident), but if the aircraft get into a sufficiently unusual attitude for long enough, the sumps in the fuel tanks would be unported, and that will shut the engine(s) down. But there would clearly be physical damage to the electrical buses (which run into the tail section, of course), if they didn't survive, no messages. Or if they just glitched hard enough to force the ACARS system to reboot, there might not have been time to get any messages off.

And time is a big issue here - if they lost the tail at the start of the incident, the resulting extreme pitch down would tend to severely damage the wings (if not break them) in seconds, quite likely doing further damage to the fuel lines and electrical buses. And the likely very high negative G loads could well have been high enough to start damaging things in the avionics bay, and then you could lose vital bits of the ACARS system like that. All that in seconds. And ACARS is not meant to be a real-time system, some processing delay or batching of messages is quite possible even if the system were fully operational.

We also know that MH didn't subscribe to the more expensive "continuous" ACARS service for MH170, I don't know if that's changed (and even if they were planning to change it, it's not likely to happen fleetwide overnight). So as with MH170, the only messages that would be transmitted normally would be engine related. And again, if both engines went off line, there would never have been power to the ACARS system to transmit them.

So, IMO, while it's not impossible that an ACARS message could have gotten out, it's rather more likely that none did.
 
Beta
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:55 am

Well, I do hope people to chill down the war/military rhetoric. The 82nd Airborne is not going to jump down to secure the site. Not happening. Will never happen. And that's a good thing. Emotions are running high and raw, but let's let the process plays out. Putin may be a murderous bastard, but he's not stupid. He'll come to senses sooner than people think.
 
baqnav
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:00 am

Let's hope, the wowen and children, plus famous aids researchers shot down
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:06 am

Apparently, pro-Russian terrorists are not allowing crash investigators to enter areas where the wreckage is located.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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a36001
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4

Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:32 am

It appears according to Skynews the rebels have ceased the FDR and CVR and are in the process of sending them to Russia? The crash site is not being treated as a crime scene nor even been sealed and looted! and the investigators and international press are being hampered in their attempts to access the site.

It's bad enough that now apparently in certain parts of the world it is acceptable to blow civilian airliners out of the sky, only then to ascertain vital parts of the aircraft that would aid in the investigation!

This is a major cover up, it would appear by Moscow! If Russia wants world condemnation they are going about it the right way!

Obviously nothing has changed in that country since the end of the Cold War. Cover things up like they didn't happen and forget about it!

   

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