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EK413
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:49 am

Hi All,

The previous thread became quite long with 250+ responses so Part 5 has been created to continue the conversation.

The previous thread can be found here;

Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 4 (by jetblueguy22 Jul 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

We ask that you please be respectful to the victim's families. In addition do NOT post pictures of the crash site if they contain victims & ask that you link to them with a warning.

Additionally, this is a charged environment so please refrain from political, polarizing or likely flame-baiting comments in your replies.

Regards,

EK413
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JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:54 am

I would like to quote the last post in Thread #4, as it is enlightening and respectful at the same time.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 265):
Getting away from the politics of this thread, I've noticed a few things after looking over much of the video and images coming out of the crash site. What I'm about to discuss is kind of a forensic discussion and if you'd be bothered by an honest examination of the factors that lead to injuries, you might want to skip this post. You've been forewarned!

Firstly...I believe this aircraft may have been inverted when it crashed. It's just a theory, but looking at the orientation of the seats at the main impact site, nearly all are upside down. Warning, bodies visible in this shot: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1916090/thumbs/o-DOMINIQUE-FAGET-900.jpg?3

Second, as we've already observed, the location of the Vstab and Hstab sections indicates that the aircraft lost its tail after the missile either impacted or exploded near the fuselage. The accounts of bodies hitting the ground AFTER the plane impacted the ground, most of which were still in their seats, as well as huge sections of fuselage sidewall landing in nearby villages, indicates that as the aircraft went down, its contents were being strewn laterally and behind into the slipstream. I believe then that this indicates not only that the tail section separated, but that at least one side of the airframe was also destroyed in the strike. The bodies, having less weight than the aircraft itself, would likely stay airborne for longer and retain more of the original intertia of the aircraft, while the aircraft itself dived.

I'm still unsure about the mechanism for the separation of the nose from the rest of the plane. I did notice a section of overhead bins laying in a field, one of which had a very clear impact mark from where a person had hit it. This was far away from the main crash site, and thus an artifact from the mid-air breakup. Analysis of this piece would be able to determine whether intertia of the impact was forward, towards the nose, or rearward, towards the tail. Either way though, it definitely indicates a catastrophic scenario going on within the cabin itself, before the plane ever reached impact.

But the other thing I find very strange and still don't have an explanation for...is that there is a seriously large amount of bodies that have...to put it as gently as possible...had the tops of their heads removed. And this is the case not only at the main crash site, but also in surrounding areas. It's a nearly uniform injury amongst dozens or more passengers...all at about the same position on the bodies, right at eye level, give or take. I have many theories as to why this might happen, but one of which would be a fuselage section tearing away on descent and flying into the passenger cabin rather than way from it...therefore after the decompression and probably well into the fall to the ground. If this section was grazing over the top of seats...that's about the right height for the head injuries we see...which....means that many of these people were probably already gone before they hit the ground. The lack of bleeding on many of the bodies also tells me that they were probably already deceased. I'm more disturbed by the ones that appear to have bled, as these may have, at least briefly, survived. Probably no more than mere seconds or minutes after the crash.

Another thing that I'd like to suggest is that although the site is definitely being compromised by the rebels....we have so much video evidence now of the crash aftermath, especially being posted by Russian and Ukranian people, that an investigation might be able to glean very important information from the videos and photographs alone. Including, perhaps, a simulation of the events that occured from time of missile contact to time of impact with the ground.


I hope this analysis doesn't bother you too much. It's posted purely with analytical intent, now that the initial horror and sadness has moved towards a search for answers.
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SKAirbus
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:27 am

This is very incriminating: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625

The rebels obviously do not want any key evidence to be found, although I doubt their little pea brains will be able to identify missile shrapnel for example.

Will the black boxes have any use here at all? Surely they would not be able to tell anything that happened in such a huge explosion?

Personally, I think the UN should be sending in peace keeping troops to Eastern Ukraine to secure the crash site and allow investigators to go about their work.

The Russian back rebels really are beyond scum. First they shoot down an airliner and now they are desperately trying to hide the fact they did it. And Putin... well he is barely a human being.
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JetBuddy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:57 am

Oh god that is a tragic image, JimJupiter.   Plane being inverted on impact might be correct.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
This is very incriminating: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-euro...83625

Yes that's incriminating. It's sickening actually. A Russia Today reporter resigned today in protest. She said she was about the truth, not "Blame everyone but Russia".
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
Will the black boxes have any use here at all?

At the very least, they can corroborate that everything was fine with the aircraft until the moment when everything went suddenly terribly wrong, thus putting to rest whatever little doubt would still be lingering about the missile scenario.

The question is: Will the rebel give the black boxes back to the investigators, or will they make them disappear?
There are reports that they have been given to Moscow, in which case the viability of what's in them would very much be compromised, even if they are returned.

Although in any case, I agree with you that the FDR/CVR might not be of crucial importance in determining what happened there. There are plenty of other clues that can be gathered from different places to build up a precise picture of the events.

Ms. Powers' speech at the UN yesterday seemed to indicate that the US has enough evidence to squarely point the finger at the separatists, and past them all the way to the red square. I, for once, have no problem believing that particular piece of US intelligence.
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Bnclar
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:13 am

Regarding the dead bodies. I always believed that after a devastating crash they would be completely crushed. Yet many of the photos shows bodies with barely any visible injuries. The majority was probably completely crushed, but atleast 5-10 % seems to have died from far less violent injuries. Such as a single blow to the head or back. It is not completely out of reach to believe at-least 1 out of the 300 dead, had a significant chance of surviving the ground impact. Maybe even did so, only to be hit by falling debris etc.

A few, must also had suffered injuries which, with instant emergency medicare would have survived albeit with great permanent injuries such as paralyzation.

Somehow the thought of that makes it even more heartbreaking.

[Edited 2014-07-19 03:15:43]
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:14 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
This is very incriminating:

No, its a report of what one waring faction says their opponent is doing.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):

The rebels obviously do not want any key evidence to be found, although I doubt their little pea brains will be able to identify missile shrapnel for example.

Yes, probably a pointless excersise.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
Will the black boxes have any use here at all? Surely they would not be able to tell anything that happened in such a huge explosion?

I doubt that they will shed much light on this incident at all, most likely the missile approached from behind and the plane came apart or lost power almost instantly.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
Personally, I think the UN should be sending in peace keeping troops to Eastern Ukraine to secure the crash site and allow investigators to go about their work.

Not going to happen, Russia will veto this, if the west keep up their hyperbolic blameshifting to Russia Putin is as likely to send troops into the area to restore order and conduct the investigation himself. Eastern ukraine will then effectively be annexed. The Bear will not be bullied, the bear will not be shamed into compliance.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
The Russian back rebels really are beyond scum.

One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter as the saying goes.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
First they shoot down an airliner and now they are desperately trying to hide the fact they did it.

Pointless, somebody is going to have to answer for it but mistaken identity shoot downs are not war crimes, the Captain of USS Vincennes got a medal not a jail cell, maybe we should remember this in context.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
And Putin... well he is barely a human being.

And stop the name calling. We all need to calm down here, its a tragedy but truth is the world sees tragedies daily.

[Edited 2014-07-19 16:33:28 by kngkyle]
BV
 
Hywel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:16 am

I would put about 20% of the blame on the Kiev government. It was clear from the 29th June, when the rebels admitted having access to BUK missiles that the airspace should have been closed. The rebels were taking pot shots at a sky that almost inevitably would result in a plane going down. So why was airspace not closed? It's ludicrous the 32000 ft safety limit when the missiles known to be available to the rebels had a vertical limit of 25km and a 95% kill efficacy (according to Wikipedia).

The Kiev government was also either negligent or cynically deliberate, and I've started to think they were deliberate.

Don't forget that one month ago, the militia complained of Ukrainian fighter jets trying to trick them into downing passenger planes.

http://i.imgur.com/3VQOmaL.jpg

Link to video

Turn on captions for English translation, from 1:10
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:19 am

If the rebels don't they let the international representatives inspect the debris, then it's another indication that they really did it. What a shame. The civilized words needs to act and raise pressure dramatically. I'm sick of the appeasement policy we have seen.


PH
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MigPilot
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 7):
Quoting Hywel (Reply 7):
I would put about 20% of the blame on the Kiev government. It was clear from the 29th June, when the rebels admitted having access to BUK missiles that the airspace should have been closed. The rebels were taking pot shots at a sky that almost inevitably would result in a plane going down. So why was airspace not closed? It's ludicrous the 32000 ft safety limit when the missiles known to be available to the rebels had a vertical limit of 25km and a 95% kill efficacy (according to Wikipedia).

The Kiev government was also either negligent or cynically deliberate, and I've started to think they were deliberate

My thoughts as well. Why didn’t the Ukrainian authorities close the air space? Whoever was responsible for that (non) decision is also guilty.

I do not want to absolve the rebels at all. Most probably they shot down MH17. Also these people are scum if they did. But this is what you get in any war zone in this world. Local warlords, no clear command structures, all kind of druged up lowlife and failed individuals, who have nothing left than weapons to express their hatred.

To not close the airspace was as either criminal or cynical deliberate.

[Edited 2014-07-19 03:34:32]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:46 am

If the black boxes turn up in Moscow, Russia, as an ICAO member state, must folllow the protocol and turn them over to Kiev which is in Charge of the Investigation. an alternative, given the Situation both countries are in at the Moment, could be that the black boxes are handed over to a neutral state.

Anything else would be a severe violation of internmational protocol and Standards. The countries in Charge are Ukraine, Malaysia, the Netherlands, USA and UK . Definetley not Russia.

BTW, this crime cannot be discussed without discussing the political aspects. The insurgents and illegal combattants are obstructing the investigators, the crash site, better the crime site is not cordoned off and evidence is suppressed.
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Hywel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:49 am

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 9):
I do not want to absolve the rebels at all. Most probably they shot down MH17. Also these people are scum if they did. But this is what you get in any war zone in this world. Local warlords, no clear command structures, all kind of druged up lowlife and failed individuals, who have nothing left than weapons to express their hatred.

To not close the airspace was as either criminal or cynical deliberate.

Likewise, I am not absolving the rebels at all. They clearly have to take most of the blame. But at the same time, I don't buy into the theory that Russia should take much responsibility for it - they just supplied the weapons. Well actually they should take responsibility, but then the US and the West doesn't exactly have a clean record of arming rebels who later kill thousands of innocent people. If the West rinses its hands and blames the rebels for their actions, we can apply the same logic here.

I do think that Kiev were cynically deliberate in not closing the airspace, after previously trying to encourage the rebels to shoot down passenger planes by tailing them with military jets. Think about it - they now have the entire world on their side, encouraging more Western involvement, and they can get away with claiming they did nothing wrong as the airspace was declared safe by IATA/ICAO etc. Governments have done much worse things before than simply leaving airspace open, waiting for a plane to be shot down.
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:12 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 12):
Likewise, I am not absolving the rebels at all. They clearly have to take most of the blame. But at the same time, I don't buy into the theory that Russia should take much responsibility for it - they just supplied the weapons.

Actually, Russia and specifically Vlad the Vampire have one single aim, to keep Ukraine in bondage.
To this effect, they have been fabricating lies from the beginning.
I for one, living in Switzerland, will rather freeze this winter than let Russia begin re-subjugating Eastern Europe.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:37 am

From the previous thread:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
Ultimately I believe Ukraine should just give up the territory which no longer wants to be a part of it, more people will be killed if they don't. Peace should be what we are aiming for.

See also, Chamberlain, Neville.

How'd that strategy work out for him?
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LovesCoffee
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 10):
A prayer to the families with loved ones onboard MH17.

Amen
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bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:39 am

MH17 was shot down over a war zone. Why was it flying over an area where other aircraft had been shot down?

Airpower
To fight a successful ground war, it is essential to deny air power freedom of movement. Effective SAMs like the BUK are one of the few weapons that can achieve this aim. Anyone that does not have something equivalent will find it difficult to hold territory.

Motive
There is a significant benefit for Ukraine in this incident. Namely that the separatists may be denied access to weapons to defend against air attacks.
There is no benefit for Russia to shoot down an airliner.
There is no benefit for the separatists to intentionally shoot down a civilian A/C.

Planning
There are many advantages from Ukraine's point of view, to have an airliner shot down by the separatists.
Failing that Ukraine might shoot it down themselves, and then claim a BUK crew defected (perhaps not leaving them much choice).
Ukraine knew that separatists had captured a BUK.
Ukraine knew that their own aircraft were being shot down in this area.
Ukraine are responsible for assessing the risks and issuing NOTAMs for their airspace.

Execution
Knowing the risks, Ukraine issued a NOTAM that it knew would put hundreds of civilian A/C in danger of being shot down. This was an incident waiting to happen. At the same time US and UK airlines were "strongly warned" not to transit this area.

During the flight Ukraine ATC directed MH17 to descend from the flight planned FL350 to FL330.

Irrelevant
Most of the equipment being used by both sides is Soviet gear, so it means nothing if the equipment used happens to be Russian made.

Whoever actually shot MH17 down is not that relevant either, because if it was the separatists, then they are in the fog of war, where anything can happen and collateral damage is to be expected. However, if it was the Ukraine then that would more interesting.

This is not a situation where an ultra detailed investigation will be of much practical value to air safety, the main purpose will be political. By all means confirm that the A/C was shot down (likely) and not brought down by an on board explosion (unlikely). The only thing to learn from this is that airlines and pilots should not rely solely on NOTAMs issued by authorities in countries that have something to gain if an airliner is accidentally shot down in a war zone.

PAX Distribution
MH17 appears to have had only one dual dutch/US passenger (who perhaps was flying using his Dutch passport), which seems an unusually low number of US pax. This raises the possibility that MH17 was selected for this reason. Independent investigators should (if possible) look at the distribution of citizenships on the hundreds of other A/C that have crossed that air route during days leading up to the shoot down. If the MH17 pax distribution is very abnormal then that would raise a red flag that would indicate the A/C was selected, so that the minimum number of US citizens were on board. If that is the case, it would imply that Ukraine were directly responsible, rather than the separatists. (This is a suggested line of investigation.)

[Edited 2014-07-19 05:28:57]
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:50 am

So you noticed that fact as well (5 threads ago, before anyone else then?), but obviously kept it to yourself and instead have just been waiting with that image huh ? 

[Edited 2014-07-19 05:19:36]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
MH17 was shot down over a war zone. Why was it flying over an area where other aircraft had been shot down?

There is no declared war and hence there is no war Zone. There are insurgents who may get some outside help but a war can be declared only between at least 2 legitimate countries, and luckily that has not been the case.

Civil unrest or whatever one can call this happens in other parts of the world without leading to consequences like prohibiting overfligth of comercial airliners. otherwise MDW or LAX would need to be closed as well.
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MigPilot
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:43 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
There is no declared war and hence there is no war Zone. There are insurgents who may get some outside help but a war can be declared only between at least 2 legitimate countries, and luckily that has not been the case.

Civil unrest or whatever one can call this happens in other parts of the world without leading to consequences like prohibiting overfligth of comercial airliners. otherwise MDW or LAX would need to be closed as well.

How many planes were shot down near MDW or LAX in the last weeks?
In this WAR ZONE planes were shot down almost daily, and you need an official declaration to get the memo?
Unfortunately reality doesn't comply with your funny definitions.

[Edited 2014-07-19 05:43:36]

[Edited 2014-07-19 05:44:17]
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:45 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
There is no declared war and hence there is no war Zone.

Who was supposed to "officially" declare a war zone? They were shooting down aircraft like hot cakes in the last two weeks and someone needs an official tag to know that it's not really safe to fly, especially after one BUK system was snatched from Ukranian military?
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nupogodi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:46 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 19):
This thread is losing all focus and credibility. It has gone from discussing an aircraft crash to a prayer group and conspiracy theory thread.

Unfortunately that's to be expected. This is aviation-related, and a disaster, but not exactly an aviation disaster. Shoot someone in a car and you don't call it a car accident. This is just some jerk shooting down a plane. Not much to be learned on the aviation side about it ...
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:00 pm

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 21):
Unfortunately reality doesn't comply with your funny definitions.

It was a sarcastic remark, not funny at all. The comparison is, that like in Chicago or other US cities, the insurgents in Eastern Ukraine are nothing less than street gangs, common criminals, with the granted exception that US street gangs so far have no SAM Missiles.

Now, one can say that the number of low flying aircraft (mind LOW flying) that have been shot down recently might have or should have led to consequences, such as shutting down the airspace altogether and not only below FL 300 or what it was.

OK, givem. but then one is always smarter after leaving City hall.
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WingBuff
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:05 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
MH17 was shot down over a war zone. Why was it flying over an area where other aircraft had been shot down?

For the last 20-30 years civilian planes have been flying over Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Lybia, almost every conflict zone. And guess what... Nothing happened. Only one shootdown with a major loss of lives occured, which was Iran Air 655 by the USS Vincennes. But that was in 1988, and the Vincennes admitted to doing so, having mistaken it for an enemy military jet. Sure, there were other incidents later in the 90s, 00s, but those were all local and minor.

But when you're a trigger-happy Russian colonel with a daftly pretentious nickname like 'Strelkov' (Russian for 'Shooter' roughly), shoot down a plane without even confirming first if it was military or not, open your mouth about how you did it online, later delete the message and in the end lie to the press saying that the passengers 'may have been dead days before the flight', then it's completely different.

One of the major reasons why Russia is still laying in a pool of their own s**t is because they have a tendency to immediately blame anybody but themselves. They don't know how to admit their own mistakes, which prevents their moving on and progressing in almost every way. And God only knows when they will learn their lesson.

Sorry for my rant. I have some Russian blood, so I ought to know. Just wanted to share some insight.
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:06 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 19):
This thread is losing all focus and credibility.

Unfortunately, blueshamu330s, it appears that the investigation is losing all focus too.

The situation appears to be that the debris is spread over several acres of ground. The only way of preserving the wreckage 'in one piece' would be to put a military guard right round it. My guess (on the basis of only limited experience) is that (assuming that every guy could only put in say a maximum of eight hours duty per day (probably a bit less) is that you'd need fences,and about a 'battalion' (say 650 men) to prevent large numbers of civilians roaming the site and taking away lots of 'souvenirs'.......... Which, on the basis of published photographs, appears to be exactly what is currently happening.

My own view, on the basis of what I've seen in the TV news (no fences and very few soldiers) is that there is already very little practical chance, 'starting from here,' of any 'investigation' establishing anything definite about the accident causes etc.

[Edited 2014-07-19 06:08:29]
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:09 pm

I think we've found 9M-MRO.  
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:11 pm

For all those who are quick to put (part of the) blame on the Ukrainian government, please consider this:

- there was indeed a Twitter message from the "Donetsk People's Republic", on June 29, claiming that the rebels had captured a Buk system
- the rebels put out a lot of bogus information. They also claim to have captured a Su-25 (none are reported missing from the Ukrainian Air Force inventory ...), which they will soon start using (without runway to operate from, as no adequate airport/airbase is under rebel control ...).
- there may have been good reasons to assume that the Buk Twitter was bogus as well. According to the Ukrainian authorities, there were no functioning Buk systems in any of the military bases captured by the rebels.
- most likely, the Buk used to bring down MH17 was brought in from Russia (with crew), very recently, rather than captured from Ukrainian stocks, and hastily taken back to Russia on Friday (see Youtube film below)
- there is no evidence of any use of a Buk system by rebels before Thursday. Up to this week, the only anti-aircraft equipment the rebels had used were MANPADs and AA guns, and no planes were threatened at higher altitudes. The highest-flying plane that had been shot down before this week was an An-30, hit at 4,050 m above Slovyansk on June 6, allegedly by a new Russian Verba MANPAD.
- The first incident above 4,000-ish meters was Monday's downing of an An-26 close to the Russian border. The Ukrainian authorities claim that it was hit by a SAM launched from Russian territory. The Su-25 that was shot down on Wednesday this week (presumably at an altitude well below 10,000 m) was allegedly hit by a (Ukrainian-made!) AAM launched by a Russian Mig-29 from across the border.
- the Buk that was probably used on Thursday was filmed and photographed multiple times as it moved to and from the launching site ... However, there are no pictures, footage, or eyewitness accounts of Buks moving around rebel-held territory before Thursday. This is consistent with the assessment of Ukrainian intelligence that the Buk entered Ukraine from Russia during the night from Wednesday to Thursday. The shooting down of MH17 was probably the first use it saw...

Here is the film of the suspected Buk being hastily transported toward the Russian border on Friday, with two missiles missing. The Buk that was observed near Snizhne on Thursday was carrying 4 missiles...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0
 
MigPilot
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
It was a sarcastic remark, not funny at all. The comparison is, that like in Chicago or other US cities, the insurgents in Eastern Ukraine are nothing less than street gangs, common criminals, with the granted exception that US street gangs so far have no SAM Missiles.

Please tell me more about that large scale insurgency in Chicago and other US cities were troops are running around with tanks and AA missiles shooting down aircraft?

It is not comparable at all! They should have closed this airspace already weeks ago. At least since it was known that the insurgents got hold of a buk system!
 
WingBuff
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:12 pm



Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 19):
This thread is losing all focus and credibility. It has gone from discussing an aircraft crash to a prayer group and conspiracy theory thread.

Some serious moderating needed to get it back on track.

Well it is aviation-related, and who says we can't discuss human nature and other things if they're related to the topic at hand? Besides, we can't really do much at the moment until the investigators get their hands on the black boxes and inspect the wreckage for any signs of an explosion caused by a StoA missile. Unlike MH370 where evidence is yet to be even found, here the evidence is scattered in a wide-open field over a 5-mile area.Let's just hope that the Russians are smart enough to hand it all over to international hands, and not hide it in a daft attempt at covering the truth.

[Edited 2014-07-19 06:18:35]

[Edited 2014-07-19 06:18:58]

[Edited 2014-07-19 07:12:29]
 
Tobias2702
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:49 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:25 pm

I've just noticed that today, MH 17 is delayed by three hours, even though the inbound MH 16 arrived at AMS on time. Any idea/information about the reason?
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
alfablue
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:16 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 23):
Shoot someone in a car and you don't call it a car accident.

But the resulting uncontrolled car can very well cause an accident. It still is an aircraft crash as this beautiful T7 with 298 innocent people onboard never reached its intended destination in one piece.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 23):
Not much to be learned on the aviation side about it ...

I respectfully disagree with you on this one too. Hearing that some airlines like BA and AF avoided that zone vs others like LH and SQ didn't makes me think that something could indeed be learned from that on the aviation side. Evidently no airline ops should have been conducted in this zone and some carriers came to that assessment while others didn't.

Regards,

alfaBlue
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 29):
Please tell me more about that large scale insurgency in Chicago and other US cities were troops are running around with tanks and AA missiles shooting down aircraft?

Read the fullparagraph again, try to understand it, don't pluck single sentences and ifyou wish I PM a Translation to you. If you do not understand sarcasm nd irony, which in this ase was direced to the liars in the kremlin, leave it.



@ WingBluff - you are quoting me with something I did not write. Pleae heck and correct. Otherwise, i am with you ad agree to your comments.

,
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1772
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:38 pm

LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
MigPilot
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
Read the fullparagraph again, try to understand it, don't pluck single sentences and ifyou wish I PM a Translation to you. If you do not understand sarcasm nd irony, which in this ase was direced to the liars in the kremlin, leave it.

I fully understand, just that there is no irony! It makes no difference if gangs in Chicago have AA missiles or not. It is NOT comparable with what happens in the Ukrainian war zones! Neither in scale nor effect!

It does not matter if you deem them criminals or not! Stop making that comparison, thanks

[Edited 2014-07-19 06:45:02]
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11667
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
Execution
Knowing the risks, Ukraine issued a NOTAM that it knew would put hundreds of civilian A/C in danger of being shot down. This was an incident waiting to happen. At the same time US and UK airlines were "strongly warned" not to transit this area.
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
The only thing to learn from this is that airlines and pilots should not rely solely on NOTAMs issued by authorities in countries that have something to gain if an airliner is accidentally shot down in a war zone.

Kiev doesn't have much to gain from that disaster, they already had the support of the West, and the West was already sanctioning Putin. The timing of the shoot-down makes no sense from that point of view. As for the NOTAM, if you want to "maximize" the chance of an airliner being shot down, why issue a NOTAM at all ? Why FL320 and not 300 or 280 ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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fca767
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:52 pm

 
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KPDX
Posts: 2418
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:56 pm

Nice to see these rebels defending the crash site from investigators all while letting those poor passengers rot in an open field. Yeah, let's keep defending them! Guarantee these defenders would feel different if that was their child or wife laying out in that open field.   
 
factsonly
Posts: 2694
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting fca767 (Reply 37):
Todays flight hasn't left 4 hours on
http://uk.flightaware.com/live/fligh...7/history/20140719/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

- 19 July 2014:

Today MH17 departed AMS with a 4 hour delay:

- STD 12:00 - ATA 15.55 Kuala Lumpur MH 017 / Boeing 777-200 / 9M-MRF
 
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fca767
Posts: 1317
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Todays flight hasn't left 4 hours on
http://uk.flightaware.com/live/fligh...7/history/20140719/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):
- 19 July 2014:

Today MH17 departed AMS with a 4 hour delay:

- STD 12:00 - ATA 15.55 Kuala Lumpur MH 017 / Boeing 777-200 / 9M-MRF

i see just as i posted.
 
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PW100
Posts: 3722
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
MH17 appears to have had only one dual dutch/US passenger (who perhaps was flying using his Dutch passport), which seems an unusually low number of US pax. This raises the possibility that MH17 was selected for this reason

It took authorities over two days to determine the pax distribution, using all official channels available to them. How would the guy pressing the BUK missile button (or his commander) have that information available to him within two hours after take-off . . . . ??? And how do they have access to that information in the first place, never mind the limited timeframe?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 43):
And now you are doing it with me. Not sure if this is a.net glitch, as I've seen it happen before as well.

This occurs when you highlight text in someone's post and click the wrong "Quote Selected Text" button. The appropriate one to click is the one above the post you highlighted, not the one below.

I have a theory this may also happen if a post gets deleted but the version of the page you have loaded still contains the deleted post, making your reply link to the wrong post, but I have not been able to test it.

In the interest of keeping it on topic, I would like to remind people that "Buk" is not an acronym but a Romanization of the Russian Бук, which is pronounced like "book" (closer to 'bouk') than "buck". So "BUK" is incorrect to write.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
WingBuff
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:30 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 42):
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
MH17 appears to have had only one dual dutch/US passenger (who perhaps was flying using his Dutch passport), which seems an unusually low number of US pax. This raises the possibility that MH17 was selected for this reason

It took authorities over two days to determine the pax distribution, using all official channels available to them. How would the guy pressing the BUK missile button (or his commander) have that information available to him within two hours after take-off . . . . ??? And how do they have access to that information in the first place, never mind the limited timeframe?

This. And they assumed it was an An-26. Surely they could've used their binoculars and noticed the different shape of the plane.
 
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N202PA
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:02 pm

One thing I noticed...note how the section of the fuselage shown below is twisted:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/18/1405698630900_wps_6_TOPSHOTS_A_piece_of_wreck.jpg

If I'm not mistaken, this is the right emergency exit at the rear of the aircraft. Note how the fuselage is warped around the exit and "peeled" away...This would lead me to believe that the shockwave from the missile explosion led to fracturing of the cabin led and immediate breakup at the rear shortly after. This does not appear to be the kind of damage that would occur from a simple impact with the ground.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting fca767 (Reply 35):
Todays flight hasn't left 4 hours on

It's in the sky now, but this is the first time I noticed that flightaware.com is still using the photo of 9M-MRD in its fern livery for MH 777 flight listings.

I've also seen links to the MH17 passenger manifest posted on a couple of different forums. I'm reluctant to post a link to it before knowing if it's been officially released yet. Does anyone know?
International Homo of Mystery
 
hoons90
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:10 pm

Such a heartbreaking tragedy. May the victims rest in peace  
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
I've also seen links to the MH17 passenger manifest posted on a couple of different forums. I'm reluctant to post a link to it before knowing if it's been officially released yet. Does anyone know?

It's on their official website as well.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6063
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 3):
A Russia Today reporter resigned today in protest. She said she was about the truth, not "Blame everyone but Russia".

It took her a mere 5 years to realize what sort of company she has been working for. What a an exceptionally bright young woman.  
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 16):
There is no benefit for Russia to shoot down an airliner.

There was no benefit for Russia (using the USSR brand back then) to shoot down the KAL007 either, yet they still did it.

BTW you forgot to mention MH17 had been loaded with already dead people.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 49):
It's on their official website as well.

Ah thanks. I had trouble loading the MH site this morning. The one I can see there now looks better formatted than the other one floating around.
International Homo of Mystery
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 4846
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
If the black boxes turn up in Moscow, Russia, as an ICAO member state, must folllow the protocol and turn them over to Kiev which is in Charge of the Investigation.

Putin has violated every UN agreement and resolution regarding the Ukraine conflict so far, along with many other international treaties Russia has signed. I'm sure an ICAO treaty will not come between him and his wish of being the 21st century's Stalin.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
Kiev doesn't have much to gain from that disaster,

I'm certain (hoping) they wouldn't have wished for it to happen. However, This will certainly hinder Russia's support to the separatists, if they don't drop it altogether, thus making the Ukrainian army's jobs much easier from now on.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
WingBuff
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:30 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 52):
Putin has violated every UN agreement and resolution regarding the Ukraine conflict so far, along with many other international treaties Russia has signed. I'm sure an ICAO treaty will not come between him and his wish of being the 21st century's Stalin.


If Putin's smart, he will hand over everything to Ukraine and the West. The finger is pointing at him, the Russian public is shifting its support away from the pro-Russian rebels and to the Ukrainian government as we speak. He's not in the position for trickery.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...eates-dilemma-putin-ukraine-rebels

[Edited 2014-07-19 08:39:08]
 
yv773p
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:00 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting WingBuff (Reply 53):
the Russian public is shifting its support away from the pro-Russian rebels and to the Ukrainian government as we speak.

I don't know about that the Russian propaganda machine is powerful. This video shows that Russians believe it was a plot by the Ukrainians and the West.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-...=1.265937871.1109243384.1405784250
Even the lazy jellyfish do it!
 
WingBuff
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:30 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 54):
I don't know about that the Russian propaganda machine is powerful. This video shows that Russians believe it was a plot by the Ukrainians and the West.

Well what did you expect? That's their nature: "It wasn't us, the West did it." Been like this for the last 70 years at least.

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