Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

EVAAIRBR076 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:39 pm

It's all one big disgrace how this all goes and many dutch and i feel soooooooo helpless and angry of how everything is going. Even our own gouverment is one big let down. On top of that all eu leader are just a bunch of scary weak leaders, nobosy is doing anything. Meanwhile those ummm let me not swear, but lets call them terrorists can take all the evidence away. They are trowing the bodies of the victims in trucks, steal belongings etc. Why is no one going in there with an army and secure the area where the crash site is. Putin just have a lack for the rest of the world, that he already showed when he kept on going after he took the crimea. He just knows and tries how far he can go, he knows probably like we all know that those european leaders have no guts to take action. Those people are just going to be a part of a dirty political game. It is just painfull to see how it all goes and really a shame to the world. ? If u ask me we should treat Putin how he treat us, that means action, this [email protected]#$#! has to be stopped.

[Edited 2014-07-19 13:44:10]

antskip · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 114):
couldn't the rebels determine the object (MH 17) as a civilian airplane? Didn't they have that capability? Other civilian airplanes have been flying in the airspace as well for a while.

The overwhelming opinion is that the destroyers of MH17 were reckless and shot down this particular plane, murdering its particular load of passengers and crew, was by chance, not knowing for sure the nature of the target- whether or not it and they were military or civilian, SU, SQ, AI or MH - and what nationality the people were. On the other hand, the opposite case is possible - that they knew exactly what plane it was, and the likely makeup of its crew and passengers. The destroyed plane was not SU, SQ or AI. There were no Russian passengers, and only one American (dual Dutch citizen). This is not a conspiracy theory - just pointing out that the actual plane and its occupants - and their respective governments -were not so likely to solicit an effective response - not significantly from the USA; and above all, not Russian. The shooters could have been reckless / ignorant or they could also been highly focused, well-trained, informed, and clever....and the downing of MH7 was a not mistake at all.

[Edited 2014-07-19 13:45:44]

awthompson · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 109):
ICAO has neither the responsibility nor the authority to issue NOTAMs. NOTAMs are issued by individual countries. While it is the responsibility of operators / flight crews to be aware of relevant NOTAMs, Eurocontrol does reject flight plans that include closed airspace.

Yes, but as I have stated this is where the 'system' has failed in my opinion. How could MAS ops have had access to 'intelligence' to know the details of what was going on in a country on the other side of the world. How could they be expected to study and make clear informed decisions about every inch they overfly.

A central body, ICAO, or the air traffic control infrastructure should have seen to this in conjunction with the country concerned. I also hinted that at least the Ukraine should have closed the relevant airspace before this tragedy occurred. However the Ukraine is in turmoil and perhaps not fully capable of functioning correctly, hence another overseeing 'body' should have taken the lead.

In fact, I don't care who should have closed the airspace. The fact is NO airliners should have been allowed in this area. If not closed, then at the very least airlines should have been informed of grave danger flying over the area for the reasons that I have stated, then the airspace would have been as good as closed. This did not happen. Here is the root cause of the MH17 tragedy.

Yet, MAS, SIA, AIC and many other well respected airlines were flying directly over an area where missiles were in use with capability of hitting their aircraft, and had already brought down large aircraft. Communication of information clearly failed miserably.

I cannot accept that MAS, SIA, AIC etc knowingly put their passengers in this grave danger.

Perhaps someone who knows the ins and outs of the system better than I do could elaborate where they think the communication failure occurred here, ie. is the airspace now closed, or are airlines simply 'choosing' to avoid it. Why did this happen after and not before a tragedy occurred. How could protocol be improved in future to make sure this does not happen again? Was the system just too slow to recognize the danger and communicate it?

awthompson · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 111):
This was no accident. This is a crime. And as such, it should be treated. Too bad the geopolitical considerations make it unlikely, but I would not use "accident" as the noun to describe MH17.

My mistake, I should not have used the word accident.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 113):

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 109):

Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):
ICAO was responsible here, but failed miserably.

ICAO has neither the responsibility nor the authority to issue NOTAMs. NOTAMs are issued by individual countries. While it is the responsibility of operators / flight crews to be aware of relevant NOTAMs, Eurocontrol does reject flight plans that include closed airspace.

It wouldn't be a NOTAM in this instance. However in international air travel, there should be a body with the ability and the expertise to issue edicts such as warning operators to avoid airspace given its a conflict zone. If not ICAO, who? Yes Ukraine should have closed the eastern two regions to commercial traffic. For several reasons including the income they'd lose, they decided not to. There should be a organization able to sit above individual countries when air routes are under threat. EuroControl could have also done or said something about NOT flying through that airspace as well.

Thanks for elaborating here. You have voiced the concern that I have, and in better words.

MD11Engineer · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 116):
No, it's 56% and 53% respectively. It's just as simple saying "Do you like chocolate ice cream? Vanilla ice cream? Rocky Road ice cream?" and you get a number of 90%, 80%, 70%. It doesn't add up to 240%. So some of those people share an opinion that they want to work with BOTH Russia and the United States which they demonstrate they have no bias towards either ones.

It goes rather in a different direction: Many Germans and other Europeans are getting fed up of being the pawns of both superpowers. While the Western European countries share a lot of common values with the US, in many aspects we are quite different and defintely have different interests.
But most of us would not want to live under Putin.

Jan

awthompson · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 113):
If not ICAO, who? Yes Ukraine should have closed the eastern two regions to commercial traffic. For several reasons including the income they'd lose, they decided not to.

That thought also came into my mind - commercial considerations.

Hywel · Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:55 pm

Anyone seen Ron Paul's comments?

Quote:
The former Republican presidential candidate says that the United States shares responsibility for the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

"It's pretty evident that the whole problem in Ukraine started approximately a year ago when the Europeans, along with the United States, overthrew an elected government and overthrew [former Ukrainian President Viktor] Yanukovych — insisting that there'd be civil strife over there," he explained.

The Texas Republican said that the fact that Russians may have provided the weapons to the Ukrainian rebels is not enough to put the blame on the Russian president.

"That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons," he said. "We sent weapons into Syria to help the rebels and al-Qaida ends up getting it — it doesn't mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons."

"So who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were," Paul added. "So even if it was a Russian weapon — doesn't mean a lot."

Full interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkYt-sI_5Sw

Kaiarahi · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 120):
A central body, ICAO, or the air traffic control infrastructure should have seen to this in conjunction with the country concerned.

I don't disagree with you, but establishing and implementing this is not without difficulty. Many countries (including many western ones) would object to an outside agency having the power to close or regulate their domestic airspace. This is why ICAO is a coordinating and standard-setting body, without direct regulatory powers.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 120):
Yet, MAS, SIA, AIC and many other well respected airlines were flying directly over an area where missiles were in use with capability of hitting their aircraft,

I think there's some confusion here. What was known is that MANPADs and artillery shells were being used - the closure of airspace to FL320 was more than enough to protect aircraft against these weapons. At this stage, it is not known when the SA-11 battery, which does have the capability of hitting aircraft at FL320 and above, arrived in the region. The first reported sightings of it, by journalists, were less than 24 hours before MH7 was targeted. Nor is it known where it came from - at least some reports today have it being trucked back towards Russia.

F9Animal · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:27 pm

The big question that has yet to be answered.... What given rights do the Russian backed criminals in Ukraine have to indiscriminately have to just fire rockets at any aircraft? Let alone, occupying territory that does not belong to them? The world knows these Russian separatists are indeed trained Russian Military units, wearing uniforms that are supplied by Russia. They didn't just get their hands on the Rockets used in this crime, they were supplied to them by Russia. They know how to operate the equipment, because they have been trained to operate the equipment! Leaders of 5 he separatists have been identified many times to be Russian military. Therefore, I believe the finger clearly points to Russia. That means Putin must hold the responsibility for this, and he should accept it.

For Putin to blame Ukraine for this is sickening. He stated this would not have happened if Ukraine had not engaged in battle in that territory. Excuse me, but I believe Ukraine has every right to fight for its territory that was taken over by "separatists". The fact they have shot down several aircraft already is enough evidence in my opinion.

Furthermore, I believe a massive military sweep to the crash site is warranted. The separatists have absolutely no rights to the crash site. They also should not be allowed to dictate who can and can't enter the site.

qf2220 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 121):
Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 117):
Why is no one going in there with an army and secure the area where the crash site is

You want a nuclear war with non of us surviving? I do not want that.

A bit of an out there thought but the Malaysian Armed Forces could probably be the group to do just that (not the nuclear war bit mind you!) and have the least political impact out of any of the protagonists given theyre not particularly friends or enemies of either side. And plenty of self and national interest to get the right answer.

Mortyman · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:36 pm

- Ukraine officially stated that terrorists, with Russian help, is trying to destroy evidence in an international crime. According to our information the terrorists have taken 38 of the dead bodies to the morgue in Donetsk, said authorities in Kiev in a statement Saturday, according to AFP.

Furthermore, they argue experts with "strong Russian accent" has threatened to conduct their own autopsies of the bodies.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/07/19/n...er/utenriks/ukraina/mh17/34422509/

If it's true that they threaten to conduct their own autopsies and mess with the remains, it's disgusting !

aircatalonia · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:36 pm

Sorry if this has been answered before:

Why was Crimean airspace closed back in February while the situation developed in that area? Who made that decision? Crimean airspace closed - LA Times

bigz · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:40 pm

Folks, This tragedy shows the good managed airlines opposed to the bad. BA, AF, Qantas, Air Berlin and others didn't need notice or warning to stop flying over a war zone! They stopped on their own. A B-777 is worth north of $200 million would you risk flying a empty B-777 over a war zone? To save 30 min. and a few thousand pounds of fuel, you have to be nuts! Now add 298 people on the plane , if that plane is shot-down over a known war zone. If I'm the DA, I'm charging airline mgt. with 298 murder charges, this was a act of total disregard for the safety of the passengers and the aircraft! The Ukraine air control system should also be charged with murder. Over the month they are well aware of the shoot-down of helicopters, fighter, and couple of transport planes! The last transport was downed from 21,000 ft. that gives you an idea surface to air missiles could be in the area. If Maylaysia Airline and Ukraine air traffic control had done their job MH-17 would not be over a known war zone, and therefore would have flown safely south of the area of known conflict and landed in Maylaysia. I put the entire blame and responsibility for the tragedy at the feet of the AIRLINE and UKRAINE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL!

karadion · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 124):
Why was Crimean airspace closed back in February

Because the Russians were seizing Crimea?

Kaiarahi · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 124):
Why was Crimean airspace closed back in February while the situation developed in that area? Who made that decision?

Ukraine.

pvjin · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting bigz (Reply 125):
Folks, This tragedy shows the good managed airlines opposed to the bad.

So also Singapore Airlines is a badly managed airline? Interesting.

Quoting bigz (Reply 125):
I put the entire blame and responsibility for the tragedy at the feet of the AIRLINE and UKRAINE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL!

So the people who were shooting at flying targets without identifying them first did nothing wrong? And the Russians who supplied them with those weapons? Give me a break.

RetiredWeasel · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:49 pm

Can't speak for other airlines but my former airline (a major international in the US) had a substantial security division. Besides periodically reviewing the obvious things like crew hotel security, inspection of pax at foreign gateways, etc, they employed intelligence people that kept current on stuff like war and terrorist activity. On several occasions they closed arrivals/departures into airports where the airline(s) was threatened or dangerous activity was observed nearby. Some airlines didn't.

As far as routes, I personally now that they had a overriding authority on routes that overflew areas where there was questionable safety. Specifically - our Amsterdam-Mumbai route sometimes flew over Iran and sometimes didn't depending on the rhetoric that was going on between Uncle Sam and Iran. Other airlines didn't care. I like to think that they would have clearly disallowed overflight of Ukraine.

In other words, regardless of NOTAMS, this airline would occasionally restrict crew hotels, cargo, arrivals, departures and routes based on their own intelligence. Not sure if Malaysia Airlines has that much depth.

skywaymanaz · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 104):
Looking back now, closing the airspace before the tragedy occurred was a ‘no brainer’.

It's so obvious in hindsight but that's always the problem with hindsight. That and perhaps a lot of us if we even thought of it before figured it was that obvious to those in charge so surely it would be taken care of, right? Unfortunately it probably had to happen to somebody somewhere first to make it so obvious it doesn't happen again. I know when I was a kid I was somewhat shocked to find out my father went to Bangkok on TWA (when they briefly operated around the world service) and flew right over the war raging below in Vietnam. I don't remember his exact words about it and he's passed on now so I can't double check with him but I seem to recall he could see something of the conflict below. Simpler times perhaps and he didn't understand why that would bother me either since he was confident the VC weren't capable of taking out a plane that high. Maybe a bad example but I think that mindset just persisted since it never happened before.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 104):
For many months now I have also been concerned with Iraq. Watch flightradar24 or whatever site you prefer, particularly in the early hours (UTC) any night. Streams of widebodies (hundreds) from the Gulf airports to Europe/USA etc route the length of Iraq daily.

I've been watching that too the past day or so. I noticed a lot of familiar names passing right over Mosul that aren't flying over Syria. The only difference I can see is I guess they don't want to pay Assad's gov't for overflight but don't mind paying Al-Maliki's. That's just how it's done even though neither controls huge sections of that territory. Maybe some public pressure should suggest overflying Mosul isn't safe either.

antskip · Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 114):
airlines should have been informed of grave danger flying over the area for the reasons that I have stated, then the airspace would have been as good as closed. This did not happen. Here is the root cause of the MH17 tragedy. Yet, MAS, SIA, AIC and many other well respected airlines were flying directly over an area where missiles were in use with capability of hitting their aircraft, and had already brought down large aircraft. Communication of information clearly failed miserably.
I cannot accept that MAS, SIA, AIC etc knowingly put their passengers in this grave danger

The airlines that did fly above the closed space did take a risk - in the same sense as flying over the Himalayas is taking a risk. What if you need to descend into the closed space(and a well-documented war zone that included the sky)? Miles O’Brien pointed this out in yesterday's PBS Newshour http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/mh17s-flight-path-area-fighting/. MH, SQ and AI were taking a big risk in flying only 1,000ft above such a closed space, these virtual Himalayas, and MS paid price so far beyond the money they saved. SQ, with a plane only 25km from MH17 at the time of the missile strike, are hugely embarrassed; so should AI. In the end, though, as Miles O’Brien also pointed out, it is up to each individual pilot/captain to make the call where a plane flies. The pilot of MH17 could and should have chosen to fly around this area.

[Edited 2014-07-19 14:56:29]

[Edited 2014-07-19 14:58:25]

[Edited 2014-07-19 15:01:03]

RetiredWeasel · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 132):
In the end, though, as Miles O’Brien also pointed out, it is up to each individual pilot/captain to make the call where a plane flies. The pilot of MH17 should not have taken his plane where he did.

BS! The pilot was in his hotel AMS trying to get crew rest disturbed by crossing 5 time zones on his KL-AMS leg. He's not an intelligence expert or current on what's going on in Ukraine. When he gets his paperwork, he assumes (unless something is really obvious) that the route chosen is the the best and safest that dispatch can come up with. Other than tweaking maybe with additional fuel and ensuring MEL's are valid and checking NOTAMs, he is probably totally unaware that there could be a SA-11 with a hair trigger.

Kaiarahi · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting bigz (Reply 125):
This tragedy shows the good managed airlines opposed to the bad. BA, AF, Qantas, Air Berlin and others didn't need notice or warning to stop flying over a war zone! They stopped on their own. A B-777 is worth north of $200 million would you risk flying a empty B-777 over a war zone? To save 30 min. and a few thousand pounds of fuel, you have to be nuts! Now add 298 people on the plane , if that plane is shot-down over a known war zone. If I'm the DA, I'm charging airline mgt. with 298 murder charges, this was a act of total disregard for the safety of the passengers and the aircraft!

So you're suggesting that LH and SQ (and many others), who are renowned for their safety culture and who continued to overfly the region until Thursday are badly managed and their management are nuts and potential murderers.

The fact is that until the presence of a SA-11 battery was known (the first unconfirmed reports were less than 24 hours before MH7 was hit), there was no reason to think that there was any particular danger to aircraft above FL320.

BTW, DAs are particular to the U.S. Other countries have their own legal systems.

flyingturtle · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting bigz (Reply 125):
Folks, This tragedy shows the good managed airlines opposed to the bad. BA, AF, Qantas, Air Berlin and others didn't need notice or warning to stop flying over a war zone! They stopped on their own. A B-777 is worth north of $200 million would you risk flying a empty B-777 over a war zone?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 129):
So also Singapore Airlines is a badly managed airline? Interesting.

+ British Airways
+ Lufthansa
+ Swiss

I will fly any day with these badly managed airlines. And we still have yet to see an airline with its own military intelligence unit.

David

Kaiarahi · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 130):
Not sure if Malaysia Airlines has that much depth.

LH, SQ and EK certainly have that much depth, and they continued to overfly.

I'm skeptical of some of the other airlines who claim to be white knights. With the exception of QF and CX, most of them don't have routes that need to go near the region.

[Edited 2014-07-19 15:15:52]

Mir · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 89):
Most Canadians are happy with the new government, but the millions of Americans who live predominantly in one province view the new government as illegitimate. They show resistance, so the government shells them and fights back. The US sees that its citizens are in danger, so it sends in security service personnel and supplies them with weapons/mercenaries to defend themselves, as it's in American interest to protect its 5 million US citizens living there.

Wouldn't happen. The US might send troops in, but their purpose would be to protect American citizens as they left the country, not to protect them in situ.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 124):
Why was Crimean airspace closed back in February while the situation developed in that area? Who made that decision?

Ukraine did. Additionally, ICAO put out a NOTAM warning of conflicting ATC services, as both Ukraine and Russia were providing ATC services in the same airspace.

-Mir

odysseus9001 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:28 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 80):

It is quite sad that this forum turned into a mirror of U.S./EU MSM.
The Russians keep silence.

Oh, give up, its clear as day that Russian unit entered Ukraine under orders to support the rebels, who were losing to Ukrainians. They fired a missile without knowing what they were shooting at, downing the airliner and killing 300 people, and left post haste once they realized the mistake. Although you do not want to confront this truth, it is what it is.

Still, we might want to lighten up on the Russian members here. Some are living in a bubble of constructed beliefs that will only be reinforced by perceived external persecution. Their paranoia and injured pride will only grow if force fed the truth by an outsider. Best for them to come to terms with it themselves.

But if I were to offer one bit of advice: just admit it, take responsibility, and cooperate. Russians are not the first to make this mistake, and sadly, will not be the last.

Finally, I pray Russians have the wisdom just to leave the Ukrainians alone. Aside from my personal respect and sympathy for the Ukrainians for standing up for themselves, the Donbas destabilization is a mistake. There is immense shared culture and history that is being destroyed by the minute with the conflict, deeply complicating Putin's goal for restoring in the long run the Russian Empire and making the world "respect" it (that is what it is all about in their minds--respect, as if WWII and a rich culture was not enough for that). That shared culture could have been a voluntary basis for closer ties, even with an agreement with EU. Now, by trying to integrate Ukraine by force, he is going to strengthen an enduring sense of Ukrainian identity and nationalism. He's too impatient, and his goals are moving further away from him than if he had just left it at Crimea.

J

bluesky73 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:46 pm

"If" the alleged shooting down of MH17 was by Russian separatist then the blood of almost 300 innocent civilian souls lays with Putin and his inner circle that orchestrated the initial Ukraine invasion.

It so sad to see the pictures on the news, innocent civilians going about their daily lives (then so cowardly taken away).
I hope those responsible are brought to justice soon!

antskip · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 133):
BS! The pilot was in his hotel AMS trying to get crew rest disturbed by crossing 5 time zones on his KL-AMS leg. He's not an intelligence expert or current on what's going on in Ukraine.

"The fact that the airspace is not restricted doesn't mean you don't need to give extra consideration whether you want to fly to it or not...You might want to think twice about flying through an airspace where there's somebody shooting missiles at anybody."
http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...-20140718-zua4s.html#ixzz37xMxlBeN

"while bodies like the International Air Transport Association issued advisories and warnings from time to time, incidents like MH17 really hit home that it is up to individual airlines to continually monitor and assess the risk on a daily basis"
http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...-20140718-zuilw.html#ixzz37xNjRuA9

"Even though it was legal, the flight path was above hostile fighting...When airlines say safety is the top priority, well, this shows that’s not always true..."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/mh17s-flight-path-area-fighting/

ComeAndGo · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 112):
On the other hand, the opposite case is possible - that they knew exactly what plane it was, and the likely makeup of its crew and passengers. The destroyed plane was not SU, SQ or AI.

I don't know about the SU flight you mention but both SQ & AI were flying East to West while MH was flying west to east the direction Ukrainian Air Force planes were flying.

trex8 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:59 pm

Even if unscrupulous people get hold of the flight recorders besides deleting data or making it unreadable can it actually be altered? Can they fabricate a new last minute of
the flight??

UALWN · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 141):

On hindsight, everything is clear. But nobody expected the rebels to have the capabilities (not to mention the willingness) to shoot down a civilian airliner at cruise altitude. So airlines by and large continued overflying Ukraine, just like they have overflown Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan whenever it has been allowed. This is the very first time anything like this happens. This isn't KAL007, which veered off course into the air space of paranoid USSR. Neither is Iran Air 655, shot down by an equally paranoid US captain, while operating his vessel inside Iran territorial waters.

awthompson · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 131):
Quoting awthompson (Reply 104):
For many months now I have also been concerned with Iraq. Watch flightradar24 or whatever site you prefer, particularly in the early hours (UTC) any night. Streams of widebodies (hundreds) from the Gulf airports to Europe/USA etc route the length of Iraq daily.

I've been watching that too the past day or so. I noticed a lot of familiar names passing right over Mosul that aren't flying over Syria. The only difference I can see is I guess they don't want to pay Assad's gov't for overflight but don't mind paying Al-Maliki's. That's just how it's done even though neither controls huge sections of that territory. Maybe some public pressure should suggest overflying Mosul isn't safe either.

That must indeed be the busiest air corridor in the world in terms of passenger numbers. Most of the aircraft are wide bodies. By the way, the spaces are not empty areas, just lack of coverage!

Busy Gulf Air Routes

ComeAndGo · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 113):
Yes, but as I have stated this is where the 'system' has failed in my opinion. How could MAS ops have had access to 'intelligence' to know the details of what was going on in a country on the other side of the world

The NOTAM cleared flights above 32000 ft. Close by there was a SQ and a IA flight. In the previous week a total of around 800 flights had overflown that area including some 90 SU flights. Up until Thursday the rebels had access to shoulder fired heat seeking missiles that don't make it to 30000 ft. All Ukranian flights that had been shot down were hit below 13000 ft. Therefore, the airspace below 32000 ft had been closed. If you look at how many conflicts you have in this world, airlines would have to avoid every other country. There's conflicts all over the world right now such as Pakistan, India, Yemen, Somalia, Manymar, Thailand, China, Mauretania etc. but guess what, planes are not being shot down there because no one has access to the sofisticated SAM system Russia supplied to Ukrainian Rebels on Thursday. That same tank went back to Russia on Friday with 2 rockets missing.

Scipio · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 139):
Still, we might want to lighten up on the Russian members here. Some are living in a bubble of constructed beliefs that will only be reinforced by perceived external persecution. Their paranoia and injured pride will only grow if force fed the truth by an outsider. Best for them to come to terms with it themselves.

Something for our Russian friends to contemplate while they make up their minds on what to make of their great nation (no irony intended--I have many good Russian friends and am a bit of a russophile):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLG1-FaVyWE

And for those who still haven't understood the nature of the "rebels" (who barely manage to find any local volunteers willing to join their ranks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy4CRQ7NTc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzHpP6o8yjs

B797 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 119):
The world knows these Russian separatists are indeed trained Russian Military units, wearing uniforms that are supplied by Russia. They didn't just get their hands on the Rockets used in this crime, they were supplied to them by Russia. They know how to operate the equipment, because they have been trained to operate the equipment! Leaders of 5 he separatists have been identified many times to be Russian military. Therefore, I believe the finger clearly points to Russia. That means Putin must hold the responsibility for this, and he should accept it.

Nobody can prove that Mr. Putin installed these 5 leaders to run the resistance and gives instructions to them. And as a American you know in a criminal court that Mr. Putin would be acquitted because you couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Putin or the Russian government controls the rebels. The evidence does show that the rebels were receiving assistance from Russia. However, the BUK missile system may have been confiscated from the Ukrainian government during a battle. The Ukrainian government denies it, though I hardly believe much of what they say. The Ukrainian government is just as corrupt as the last and has motive to lie. I originally come from Latvia and my own mother is Ukrainian and I can assure you the fascism in Ukraine is real. The American media fails to report this and the racism and discrimination against ethnic Russians and Jews. Why do you think so many Ukrainian's ran away and move to the United States and Europe? Specifically the Jewish Ukrainians??

I wish we could just allow a international investigation to occur. I hope that isn't to difficultto accomplish.

And finally if the BUK system was stolen from Ukraine what does that say about Russia assisting the rebels?
Please also note that conscription was required in Ukraine and the SSR so it may not be so hard to find a person who knows how to operate the BUK missile system vs in the United States where most American's never serve.

silentbob · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 86):
It might explain why the U.S. and the RUS intelligence agencies have been keeping silence.

US intelligence agencies do not put out public press releases on topics that reveal their "sources and methods". However, there have been a number of reports and leaks indicating what their information indicates to them. They could make public infrared and radar imaging that shows exactly where the missile originated and people like you would then immediately claim that it was faked.

Quoting antskip (Reply 132):
The airlines that did fly above the closed space did take a risk

Exactly, it was a calculated risk, and they ended up being wrong. Personally, I think it was a bad risk and would have said so before this incident. I also would have said that I doubted anything like this would happen and I would have been wrong on that one.

RetiredWeasel · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 141):
"The fact that the airspace is not restricted doesn't mean you don't need to give extra consideration whether you want to fly to it or not...You might want to think twice about flying through an airspace where there's somebody shooting missiles at anybody."

I'll just say it more clearly antskip: The captain of MH17 is in no way to blame for his aircraft getting hit nor taking this route. He has to trust his airline (Maintenance, Dispatch, Meteorology, Security) everytime he takes off. Unless he was some sort of news junkie reading everything available regarding the conflict in Ukraine, he would have no knowledge of a weapons system below his flight path that might be fatal to his aircraft. In fact I've know some pilots who if told there is a war going on in Ukraine might have replied with "Ya? What's going on?" And I at one time or another would be guilty!

alfa164 · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:49 pm

Quoting mila (Reply 141):
Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 139):They fired a missile without knowing what they were shooting at, downing the airliner and killing 300 people, and left post haste once they realized the mistake. Although you do not want to confront this truth, it is what it is.
You must be a true US citizen right! Leave that crap talk and stick to this incident.

If you want to start a topic about Iran Air, I am sure that would be welcomed as another forum. In the meantime, name-calling because of an incident 13 years ago gives you no credibility. The facts indicate odysseus9001 is 100% right; do you have any evidence otherwise?

Kaiarahi · Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 150):
Unless he was some sort of news junkie reading everything available regarding the conflict in Ukraine, he would have no knowledge of a weapons system below his flight path that might be fatal to his aircraft.

Nor would anyone until a few hours before the flight - and those sightings were unconfirmed. I'd far rather my pilot get the 5 time-zone rest needed to fly than stay up all night surfing news channels.

Scipio · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:04 am

Quoting B797 (Reply 148):
And as a American you know in a criminal court that Mr. Putin would be acquitted because you couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Putin or the Russian government controls the rebels.

The court of global public opinion has lower standards. And that is the court that matters for people who aspire to be world leaders...

Quoting B797 (Reply 148):
However, the BUK missile system may have been confiscated from the Ukrainian government during a battle.

There is no evidence substantiating this, apart from a Twitter message from the rebels themselves.

Quoting B797 (Reply 148):
The Ukrainian government is just as corrupt as the last

Not quite... They wouldn't dare to for fear of being pushed out of power by the people in no time. And there is not much left to steal after Yanukovych and his cronies served themselves. Ukraine is essentially bankrupt.

Quoting B797 (Reply 148):
the fascism in Ukraine is real

It is nothing compared to the Russian variant being cultivated by the Kremlin...

[Edited 2014-07-19 17:09:00]

prebennorholm · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:09 am

When blaming MH for flying there it is relevant to take a look at the situation in general.

During the last 7 x 24 hours up to the shoot-down 830 international airliners crossed eastern Ukraine air space. That is one every 12 minutes on average, day and night.

They came from several dozens of carriers including a string of European flag carriers, some of the largest ones. Aeroflot tops the list with 86 crossings.

At the time of the shoot-down the air space was just a little more crowded than average, maybe because it was daytime. MH17 was trailed by SQ351 15 miles behind while an Air India plane was in the vicinity in the opposite direction.

I am not advocating that we remove blame from MH. I am just telling that whatever blame we put on MH should be blamed equally on most of the entire airline industry with routes normally crossing eastern Ukraine.

Maybe one day someone will make a list of airlines which operate routes normally crossing eastern Ukraine, but for the duration of this conflict actually has diverted every flight around the critical zone. I am afraid that this list would be rather short.

alfa164 · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting B797 (Reply 148):
Nobody can prove that Mr. Putin installed these 5 leaders to run the resistance and gives instructions to them. And as a American you know in a criminal court that Mr. Putin would be acquitted because you couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Putin or the Russian government controls the rebels. The evidence does show that the rebels were receiving assistance from Russia. However, the BUK missile system may have been confiscated from the Ukrainian government during a battle.

Okay, then let's talk about the facts we do know. it’s important that one point be made absolutely clear: In an effort to destabilize the authority of Ukranian's central government, the Russians funneled a stream of heavy weapons: machine guns and artillery, and eventually tanks, armed personnel carriers, and anti-aircraft missiles to their designated thugs. In recent days, the separatist forces were openly using MANPADS, and have been boasting of shooting down large Ukrainian transport planes, with Russian specialist assistance. Just Thursday afternoon, Igor Strelkov - the Russian secret police colonel who made his name in Chechnya - bragged on social networks that they had taken down another military plane, before realizing that plane was actually MH17. He removed the post. In late June, several different Russian media sources published photographs of BUK anti-aircraft missiles, which they said had been captured by the separatists (although they were probably outright gifts from Russia). These posts have also been removed.

It is within this context that a surface-to-air missile was aimed at a passenger plane: a lawless environment; irregular soldiers who might not be so good at reading radar - or who didn't care; a nihilistic disregard for human life; scorn for international norms, rules, or standards; all organized (if "organized" is applicable to these thugs) by Russian "advisors". Do you think Russia provided all this support and encouragement without Putin's knowledge? Like I said before, you can't just blame the puppets; the puppeteer has blood on his hands.

penguins · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:18 am

Quoting mila (Reply 141):
You must be a true US citizen right! Leave that crap talk and stick to this incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Oh, so just because he is a US citizens means that he isn't allowed to voice his opinion on a topic. Why shouldn't he be allowed to contribute. Why don't you, as a presumably Swedish citizen, stick to the Catalina Affair? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair

Planesmart · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:21 am

As a frequent flyer, in hindsight, too often around ME flash points, I'm disappointed the UN and major nations, have not acted decisively already to protect future flights in high risk areas, and failed to secure the crash scene, bodies, personal effects and black boxes.

Other than spirited rhetoric, every hothead with a firearm or missile, has the green light in areas of the world at war, civil disobedience, revolution, terrorist control, etc to replicate.

How close to North Korean airspace are civil airliners flying?

bigz · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:38 am

Folks, it's simple the fighting started 2 months ago, not 3 days ago, everybody who has brain matter knows there's a conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Western Ukraine govt. who is one of the combatants controls the airspace. The govt. of Ukraine is broke! So they need money, so they will say any lie necessary to keep aircraft flying in their air space They have little concern for fgn. aircraft safety because they are one of the combatants. So if their air controller knowingly routes a fgn. airliner thru the war zone and the other side shoots the plane down. It's a win for them, the other side gets blamed, and they the SOB's who controlled the flight into danger, start pointing fingers! And people who are naïve about war knee-jerk and lose track of the real situation it's called war. The fact is if MH-17 was told a simple instruction as
MH-17 war zone ahead, turn right 140 and turn back to 090 after 200 miles gf SE Heading, your go South of the war zone. But the Ukraine controller didn't do that! I wonder why?

pvjin · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting bigz (Reply 158):

The aircraft was avoiding an area of bad weather, that's why it flew more north than usual. Airplanes fly over war zones all the time, just go to flightradar24.com and check Iraqi airspace. The difference is there's no Russia supplying rebels with powerful buk AA systems.

awthompson · Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:56 am

It is clear that we are living in a dangerous world. I think we just need to accept it. Life appears to mean very little. Despite what some may think, its not going to get any better (in my opinion). This said, the chance of any one person being caught in a violent act like the shooting down of MH17 is quite remote. I'm talking more about relations between nations. Friendships between nations are very superficial and tensions run high. Current conflicts are storing future aggression which is really quite worrying. Although I could, I'll not say anything more. Although still generally related to the topic under discussion, it would start to take the focus off the specific topic.

raaadek · Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:11 am

Looks like SQ decided to skip all 3 - Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan - on their way to Europe tonight. SQ26 leads the way followed by SQ306, 378 and 392.
http://www.flightradar24.com/SIA26/3dafe89

YoungMans · Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:29 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 156):
Oh, so just because he is a US citizens means that he isn't allowed to voice his opinion on a topic. Why shouldn't he be allowed to contribute. Why don't you, as a presumably Swedish citizen, stick to the Catalina Affair? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair

What has a June 1952 incident got to do with an airliner being shot down in July 2014..??
During the Thirty Year's War (1618 - 1648) the Swedish Army also marched through my home town and destroyed whatever they could.
Is that still worth mentioning here as well?

777Jet · Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 2):
The Russian back rebels really are beyond scum. First they shoot down an airliner and now they are desperately trying to hide the fact they did it. And Putin... well he is barely a human being.

That pretty much sums it up. However, the slow progress being made (by the time full and permanent access is gained to all areas I'm sure that most of the important pieces of the puzzle will have been long gone) shows how pathetic the rest of the world is in dealing with something with such significance. It would not even surprise me if bits and pieces of a US or Western made missile was placed on the scene and Putin will come on TV and say you know what... "We always called for a full investigation. We cannot control the rebels. BTW it seems as if it was not shot down by a Soviet made missile so our hands are clean... blah blah blah...". Whatever happens from now will not come as a surprise one bit! Too bad for the bad guys that the real investigators will be able to tell pretty much what really happened with the skills and technologies they will be able to use...

Quoting raaadek (Reply 161):
Looks like SQ decided to skip all 3 - Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan - on their way to Europe tonight. SQ26 leads the way followed by SQ306, 378 and 392.

I think this will pretty much become the norm from now on. Good move but still underpinned by tombstone mentality...

undertheradar · Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 36):

'people' like this don't have a conscious.. All humans (living things) are a 'disposable commodity' in this f**ked up world we have created...It's always been that way....and sadly, always will be. A never ending cycle of ego, hate, conflict, war and death

(sorry...I just needed to vent)

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