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kann123air
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:09 am

Top: Photo of my TV showing the registration.
Bottom: My picture of the same portion of the aircraft, showing the registration...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3907/14508677828_c0d22bcac3_b.jpg9M-MRD by kann123air, on Flickr

Simply creepy. RIP to everyone on board.
Going for great
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting kann123air (Reply 165):

Here is a link to the pic containing the rego (wreckage only):

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...-DT302_0718mh_H_20140718080048.jpg
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
jmp367
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:19 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 162):
What has a June 1952 incident got to do with an airliner being shot down in July 2014..??
During the Thirty Year's War (1618 - 1648) the Swedish Army also marched through my home town and destroyed whatever they could.
Is that still worth mentioning here as well?

Why not? As Americans, we are often reminded of all of our transgressions, past and present, from the "more enlightened" (or is that morally superior, or perhaps more self-righteous?) Europeans. We are reminded about slavery, which occurred well before any Americans today were born, yet slavery was brought here to North America by the "more enlightened" Europeans. So, how far does one wish to go back into a nation's history of transgressions? Is it that a citizen of one of those such nations that committed transgressions not have the right to comment on another nation's misdeeds? By that logic, Germans have no say whatsoever, as does much of Europe.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:21 am

Quoting bigz (Reply 158):
Western Ukraine govt. who is one of the combatants controls the airspace. The govt. of Ukraine is broke! So they need money, so they will say any lie necessary to keep aircraft flying in their air space They have little concern for fgn. aircraft safety because they are one of the combatants. So if their air controller knowingly routes a fgn. airliner thru the war zone and the other side shoots the plane down. It's a win for them, the other side gets blamed, and they the SOB's who controlled the flight into danger, start pointing fingers!

Umm ... Eurocontrol approves / accepts flight plans. Just the facts. You're just ignorant - very!
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
penguins
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting jmp367 (Reply 167):
Why not? As Americans, we are often reminded of all of our transgressions, past and present, from the "more enlightened" (or is that morally superior, or perhaps more self-righteous?) Europeans. We are reminded about slavery, which occurred well before any Americans today were born, yet slavery was brought here to North America by the "more enlightened" Europeans. So, how far does one wish to go back into a nation's history of transgressions? Is it that a citizen of one of those such nations that committed transgressions not have the right to comment on another nation's misdeeds? By that logic, Germans have no say whatsoever, as does much of Europe.

Exactly. No American member had anything to do with the shoot down of IR655, yet some Swedish members feel that we have no right to contribute to this thread because of actions we had no part in. Apparently, respecting the opinions of others and their freedom of speech instead of telling them that they shouldn't participate because of a flag on a website is not taught in Sweden.
According to this quote:

Quoting mila (Reply 141):
You must be a true US citizen right!

Anyone with a US Flag on A.net is an American citizen and that all American citizens have opinions that are useless.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:35 am

I have to (shudder) agree with Ron Paul's comments.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 116):
Anyone seen Ron Paul's comments?

Quote:
The former Republican presidential candidate says that the United States shares responsibility for the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

"It's pretty evident that the whole problem in Ukraine started approximately a year ago when the Europeans, along with the United States, overthrew an elected government and overthrew [former Ukrainian President Viktor] Yanukovych — insisting that there'd be civil strife over there," he explained.

The Texas Republican said that the fact that Russians may have provided the weapons to the Ukrainian rebels is not enough to put the blame on the Russian president.

"That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons," he said. "We sent weapons into Syria to help the rebels and al-Qaida ends up getting it — it doesn't mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons."

"So who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were," Paul added. "So even if it was a Russian weapon — doesn't mean a lot."
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 170):

There's a huge difference. The U.S. has provided (limited) arms to those fighting the Syrian regime, which may have found their way to ISIS. Russia has DIRECTLY provided sophisticated weapons to Russians pretending to be Ukrainians. No comparison.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
odysseus9001
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:41 am

Mila,

I actually had that very incident in mind, in saying later in my post that its just best to come clean.

You really should read all of my post before judging me. What was I simply doing up front the facts as they are, so we can move past denial. You should read further, where I clearly said the Russians won't be the first to make this mistake, nor the last. I know my country's history perfectly well.

I regret my straightforward presentation of the facts has offended you. I find getting to the facts as they are lead to better wisdom and understanding, and better decisions.

regards,

J

[Edited 2014-07-19 19:55:14]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:43 am

Clearly their is the worst of all possible situations with this air disaster.
The aircraft flying over a highly disputed war zone yet within understood NOTAM's, with little or no expectation of being shot down.
Some trigger happy and/or ignorant fool trying to shoot down 'enemy' aircraft (ie: supplying the Ukrainian military) for the glory of the rebels, as done at least 2 times before in recent days, and destroying a plane full of innocents. Those ground to air missiles supplied by Russia seeking to take over the Ukraine physically and economically as did in the USSR days.
The debris of the aircraft, the bodies of the humans murdered, being looted, the black boxes and other evidence not accessible to proper investigators. Some bodies may be held like hostages for money by these de facto terrorists. There are even stories of the credit cards of those murdered on the plane being used by the thieves who took them. I suspect much of the parts of the fallen a/c being taken for scarp for money, personal items from I-phones, computers likely stolen for resale by greedy and sick people.
NOTAM'S were inaccurate, not sufficient to assure safety of any and all aircraft despite shoot downs of other aircraft, airliners failed to consider the risks to save a few dollars on fuel and time. Now they lose many millions from this disaster.

As to the NOTAM's issue, as I previously mentioned in the last part, the insurers and risk managers must have authority to protect their assets and not have to make $100 million or more in payments to push for a reform of the NOTAM process and determinations especially as to active war zones like the Ukraine. As a poster on a follow up on my comment noted, once again it is another case of 'tombstone' safety reforms. They can price their insurance much higher if airliners choose to operate over risk zones.

As to dealing with the on the ground issues, Ukrainian and Russian airliners should face sanctions from a substantial reduction in flights to the USA and Europe to not processing credit card payments until full access to the crash site for as long as needed, the 'black boxes' turned over without any monies paid, that Russia and Ukraine full cooperate in the investigations. If they fail in the next 3 days to do so, increase the penalties to Ukrainian and Russian airliners including airline flyover rights over the USA, Europe, some Asian countries as well as cut off access to more airports. Of course Russia will give the world blowback, already Putin has allegedly ordered tighter issuance of Visas to USA nationals and likely would ban flights into or over Russia by US and EU airliners, causing a huge mess. Sometimes though, tough decisions have to be made to do what is right as must be here.
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting raaadek (Reply 161):

Looks like SQ decided to skip all 3 - Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan - on their way to Europe tonight. SQ26 leads the way followed by SQ306, 378 and 392.
http://www.flightradar24.com/SIA26/3dafe89



Not sure flying close to Gaza when Hamas have launched a thousand rockets
into Israel is that safe!

But back on topic
Can someone who gets hold if the flight data recorders fabricate data. I mean can they erase the last few minutes and put new data on the recorders ?
 
odysseus9001
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 156):
the Catalina Affair

I'm a bit of a history buff but I didn't know about the Catalina affair. Thank you for providing that reference!

J
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 85):
It might explain why the U.S. and the RUS intelligence agencies have been keeping silence.

Unlike some countries, US intelligence agencies don't have their own face book pages, twitter channels or make public announcements. However, the US government has already released information concerning some of the data gathered which relates to the shoot down.
1) There was a radar controlled missile launch facility tracking the target which was shot down.
2) There was a missile launched from that facility/ complex/ vehicle group which struck the target.
3) Data is not yet able to confirm the exact location from which the missile was launched, not can they confirm who controlled the launch missile group.
4) They hope to be able to identify the exact launch position in a few days (likely need data from other sources) but preliminary indications are that the missile was launched from an area completely under the control of the rebels.

Also, the rebel group announced just a couple minutes after MH17 was hit that they had shot down a transport aircraft. A post that was quickly retracted within the next half hour.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 101):
Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):ICAO was responsible here, but failed miserably.
ICAO has neither the responsibility nor the authority to issue NOTAMs.

ICAO is a administrative body which makes recommendations to national aviation authorities about the operation and safety of aircraft and aviation. It has no authority to issue any regulations to anyone. It has no authority to order any actions by anyone.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 112):
A central body, ICAO, or the air traffic control infrastructure should have seen to this in conjunction with the country concerned.

The is no central body in charge of aviation world wide. There are approx. 120 different national aviation authorities which control their own individual airlines. Yes, many work together. And groups like EuroControl do have the ability to reject flight plans for many reasons.

But there is no one overall in charge of aviation operations around the world. Never will be. the nations of the world will not give someone else that power over their own airlines.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 123):
Why was Crimean airspace closed back in February while the situation developed in that area? Who made that decision?

The 'owner' of the airspace - the Ukraine - closed the airspace. Only the nation which owns the airspace can issue a closure. Various cooperative groups between nations do have the ability to reject flight plans and 'close' airspace over international waters.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 157):
I'm disappointed the UN and major nations, have not acted decisively already to protect future flights in high risk areas

What authority does the UN have to walk into a sovereign nation and take control of an aircraft crash site. Or any other nations have power to close airspace. Are you advocating that Cuba or Venzuela should have the right to come into the US because if they feel our USAF military aircraft are acting in a provocative manner and endangering flights?

Quoting planesmart (Reply 157):
and failed to secure the crash scene, bodies, personal effects and black boxes.

You are describing an armed invasion of a sovereign nation. Should Egypt have been allowed to send troops to secure the crash scene and take possession of bodies, personal effects and the black boxes for the Egypt Air 990? Because the Egyptian government has stated they feel the US NTSB is covering up for other US agencies and companies.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 157):
How close to North Korean airspace are civil airliners flying?

At times aircraft are allowed to fly over North Korean airspace. They love the hard currency revenue. But their also sometimes apparently just like to act without warning and change their minds.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:45 am

Not sure if there's already a reply with this, but here's the cargo manifest for MH17. Possibly the captain's final signature on page 4 (special cargo advice).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/234354804/MH017-Cargo-Manifest-1

Fatalities included 2 dogs and some birds. Total cargo weight 9,885 kg., almost 22,000 lb.

Would be nice if the birds' containers came apart during the plunge and some were able to fly away.
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:52 am

Russia´s foreign ministry has stated that they have no interest in holding on to the FDRs and that they will turn them in to ICAO but that theydon´t have them.

The Russian Separatists are now saying that it is false that they have recovered them, which I actually believe because of the breakup sequence.

However it will be a matter of time until they are found due to their beacons, I imagine, but it seems both Moscow and the Russians are treating them now like a hot potato.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 165):
Would be nice if the birds' containers came apart during the plunge and some were able to fly away.

While plausible, I think they would be too stunned by the sudden decompression, cold and explosion to have flown away. Any idea what type of birds were they?
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:02 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 165):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/234354804/MH017-Cargo-Manifest-1

}

No disrespect intended, but I am curious. There is a line that says "Shipment of Pot". What...is that...potatoes? Or something else?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 166):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 165):
Would be nice if the birds' containers came apart during the plunge and some were able to fly away.

While plausible, I think they would be too stunned by the sudden decompression, cold and explosion to have flown away. Any idea what type of birds were they?

There were 2 shipments of live birds, both on page 1 of the manifest in the reply above. One says 5 pieces, live birds (species not mentioned), 70 kg., destination DAC, and the other 4 pieces, live pigeons, total weight 82 kg., final destination SGN.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:18 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 166):
However it will be a matter of time until they are found due to their beacons, I imagine, but it seems both Moscow and the Russians are treating them now like a hot potato.

Unless the black boxes fell into a lake or river or swimming pool the beacons are of no use -- they're water activated and not used to find the black boxes when an airplane crashes on land.
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 169):
Unless the black boxes fell into a lake or river or swimming pool the beacons are of no use -- they're water activated and not used to find the black boxes when an airplane crashes on land.

I did not know that. Thanks for the info. Then, I´m pretty sure nobody has them yet.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 167):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 165):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/234354804/MH017-Cargo-Manifest-1


No disrespect intended, but I am curious. There is a line that says "Shipment of Pot". What...is that...potatoes? Or something else?

I noticed that too. Must be an abbreviation. I doubt potatoes are a likely air freight item. Or maybe it's exactly what it says, a pot (like a flower pot or urn or cooking utensil of some type).
 
Mir
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 166):
Russia´s foreign ministry has stated that they have no interest in holding on to the FDRs and that they will turn them in to ICAO but that theydon´t have them.

The Russian Separatists are now saying that it is false that they have recovered them, which I actually believe because of the breakup sequence.

Didn't they previously say they had them and were taking them to Moscow? A CVR or FDR is not easy to mistake for something else, so I wonder why they might now be changing their story.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:50 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 167):
There is a line that says "Shipment of Pot".

It's a shipment of a potentiostat galvanostat for an electrochemistry workstation.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915321...me-dogs-and-birds-died-on-mh17-too
International Homo of Mystery
 
karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:52 am

https://news.vice.com/video/exclusiv...rmath-russian-roulette-dispatch-60

There's an onsite video out by Vice News from a couple days ago and it's pretty obvious that separatists are both looting the site and cleaning up the site without any proper investigators on site.

[Edited 2014-07-19 23:55:15]
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:06 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 11):
I do think that Kiev were cynically deliberate in not closing the airspace, after previously trying to encourage the rebels to shoot down passenger planes by tailing them with military jets. Think about it - they now have the entire world on their side, encouraging more Western involvement, and they can get away with claiming they did nothing wrong as the airspace was declared safe by IATA/ICAO etc. Governments have done much worse things before than simply leaving airspace open, waiting for a plane to be shot down.

Yes this is a good point. One thing though, it is Ukraine that decides what airspace is safe not IATA or ICAO.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:27 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 19):
Who was supposed to "officially" declare a war zone? They were shooting down aircraft like hot cakes in the last two weeks and someone needs an official tag to know that it's not really safe to fly, especially after one BUK system was snatched from Ukranian military?



Exactly, "War Zone" vs "war zone" it makes no difference. The thing is that many airlines from Europe and Asia trusted the NOTAM issued by Ukraine to keep them safe, they did not receive the special "strong warnings" not to fly over this region that UK and US airlines received from the US.
 
nasula
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:32 am

Quoting jmp367 (Reply 155):

As a superpower, China, USA, Russia are all held under a microscope because of their status. They can and all do transgressions they should not do under international code and morals, but know they can get away with most cases. Often these occur based on pure national self interes - understandably.

This naturally annoys smaller nations since they cannot do so and feel that superpowers should live up to a higher moral standard than others due to this inherent capability to do evil and good at levels others cannot. And they can do it unchecked. The only checks are the other superpowers. EU as it currently stands is a superpower only economically if even at that. But it doesn't mean that we can't moralize. Oh no it doesn't.

One if the big reasons many Europeans may be quick to judge on these types of events likely has to do with two world wars and a cold war that was fought on our turfs as well as the fact that we have so many divergent cultures next to us that it makes us very careful not to increase agression, rather to find less agressive solutions instead. Mind you it doesn't mean we understand foreign cultures any better. It is also one large reason why the EU takes so long to act as many nations with a very careful stance at start have to agree before anything happens.

This combo of course leads to every every single European to feel morally and intellectually superior to any of the superpowers and thus gives the right to critisize and chastise the idiotic citizens of said superpowers. This should never be questioned or argued against and just be thought of as a god given superior moral and intellectual capability, that should be praised for it's keen insight and unerring accuracy!  

Regs, Jarkko
 
bigz
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:44 am

Why was Eurocontrol approving flight plans, because they were dumb enough to take the word of Ukraine that things were safe. Not true, too late now the war zone is closed. What I want to know, since the shot-down of the Ukraine transport from 21,000 ft., how many fgn. airliners were allowed to fly thru the area? I bet that after the shoot-down, no Ukraine aircraft has come near the area! But until 48 hrs. ago Ukratne would route fgn. carriers into the war zone day or night! Thanks US supported Ukraine government for being so very stupid!! Some of you people need to learn the first rule of war.
THE FIRST DEATH IN WAR IS THE TRUTH
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting alphablue (Reply 29):

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 23):Not much to be learned on the aviation side about it ...

I respectfully disagree with you on this one too. Hearing that some airlines like BA and AF avoided that zone vs others like LH and SQ didn't makes me think that something could indeed be learned from that on the aviation side. Evidently no airline ops should have been conducted in this zone and some carriers came to that assessment while others didn't.

I also think there is something to be learned. I am not sure that individual airlines have the ability to determine the tactical situation on ground in war zones. US and UK airlines had the advantage of the US government's deep understanding of the risk of a shoot down, hence their "strong warning" not to fly over these dangerous regions. Unfortunately the US chose, not to pass this "strong warning" onto European and other airlines transiting this region, and so tens of thousands of Europeans and others have been exposed to the risk of being shot down, eventually resulting in the actual shoot down of MH17.

Europe needs to think about developing or adapting an existing European organization that can examine these risks independently of the US, so that they can keep European airlines and people out of harms way and not fall into these kind of traps in the future.

[Edited 2014-07-20 01:19:50]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:09 am

Quoting bigz (Reply 176):

Answered above. Do I need to recapitulate it for you?

But by not allowing investigators free access to the crash site the Russia-supported rebels are killing that "TRUTH".


Signed,

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
F9Animal
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:22 am

While this question may seem morbid.... I have to ask. Was there any pain and suffering going on after the plane was hit and started breaking apart at altitude? Or, would the altitude be an instant loss of consciousness? I fear that some of those poor people were awake and knew what was happening. How about previous accidents like TWA 800, or KAL 007?

I could never imagine falling from that height. I had a nightmare about it, and I can't shake it.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:51 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 73):
Irrelevant? Maybe. Or it may be not.

Yes, irrelevant.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
Womack17
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:55 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 179):
Was there any pain and suffering going on after the plane was hit and started breaking apart at altitude? Or, would the altitude be an instant loss of consciousness? I fear that some of those poor people were awake and knew what was happening.

From SKYbrary.aero:

"In aeronautics, hypoxia typically results from a decompression or lack of pressurization of the aircraft cabin. Hypoxia occurs within a few minutes if the cabin pressure altitude rises to between 5,000-6,000 m (about 16,000 - 20,000 ft). Acute hypoxia is characterized by impaired cognitive performance and sometimes a loss of consciousness.

If there is a cabin rupture or other cabin depressurization that occurs extremely quickly, hypoxia can occur within a few seconds, especially if cabin pressure altitude is higher than 7,500 m (about 25,000 ft). This sudden onset hypoxia is termed fulminant hypoxia. At high altitudes, loss of consciousness occurs within a few seconds without any warning symptom. A “normal” person generally feels nothing prior to loss of consciousness and will be unable to recall the incident."

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hypoxia_(OGHFA_BN)

HOPE THIS HELPS

-Womack17

[Edited 2014-07-20 01:58:58]
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
SQ325
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:55 am

At 33000ft there is no instant loss of consciousness if I recall correctly it is around 45 secs until a loss of consciousness. But here wae are speaking of a rapid decrompresion within an aircraft not in an aircraft fallig apart!
However I am not sure about the rapid exposure to the outside of the aircraft in terms of a probably rapid spped change from a felt 0 inside the aircraft to an roughly 850km/h!

[Edited 2014-07-20 01:58:05]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:37 am

Quoting Womack17 (Reply 181):
Quoting SQ325 (Reply 182):

Time of useful consciousness was quoted as about 30 seconds for these altitudes, but I may be mistaken. Trained crew may still grasp what is occurring (fuselage rupture, uncontrolled "flight") - only for them the consciousness is "useful" to take any action, but the general passengers will probably feel nothing but panic. The airstream will force people to close their eyes. People will be shaken around. Else they are rapidly blown unconscious.

At least the agony doesn't last for more than two minutes or so.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
SQ325
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:43 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
Time of useful consciousness was quoted as about 30 seconds for these altitudes

could also be right was to lazy to look it up in the manuals!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:48 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
At least the agony doesn't last for more than two minutes or so.

A few seconds let alone two minutes or so is far too long...

How long would it take falling from 33,000 feet take to impact the ground?

Some of the pics on the net are very disturbing and very sad indeed. I would not want to imagine what those still strapped in their seats after impacting the ground went through or were thinking if still conscious. I would hope that they were out pretty much straight away - what a horrible experience if they were still alive during the free-fall... I hope a swift and appropriate justice is given to those responsible  
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PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:00 am

With all due respect, I would love to see our Russian members please quote something other than the vile being spilled by the Russian state media...and for the Chinese members to access a proxy so they can see news that is not being vitrolated into PRC propaganda.

The UN is going to remain completely powerless in this situation. I wonder if the security council can make a snap meeting without China and Russia knowing ...   

So can someone confirm that the shrapnel found came from the missile?
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AlexA340B777
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 185):

if I remember my physics classes correctly, his can be calculated... of course not taking into account the aerodynamic specific resistances of parts falling, so just an approximate calculation:

assuming that usually maximum speed of falling objects not faster than 200-250km/h so not more than max. 70m/s,
therefore first phase of drop to be seen as evenly accelerated fall, second phase of drop as drop with constant speed.


For first phase:

velocity (v) = gravity (g) x time (t), therefore:

t = v / g

t = 70m/s / 10 m/s2 = 7 seconds


distance dropping in those 7 seconds will be S = 0.5 x g x t2, so

0,5 x 10m/s2 x 7 (squared) = 245 meters, so reaching those 250 km/h quite fast.


33.000 feet x 0,302 m/foot = 9.966 meters crusing hight. 9.966 - 245 = 9.721 meters of altitude falling at maximum speed of 250 km/h



second phase therefore:

distance S = velocity (v) x time (t), so

t = S / v, so 9.721 / 70 m/s = 139 seconds.



total time of fall then is 7 + 139 = 146 seconds, round about 2,5 minutes....



Alex
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:23 am

Dear fellow-member PHX787, so you concluded that Russians and Chinese were the victims of propaganda.
While US/EU members - what? They have own sources on the ground?
You - no doubt - truly believe that MSM in Japan differ from Russian or Chinese MSM?

What I am actually waiting: preliminary conclusion of the Russian intelligence.
They have been surveilling/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7.
In the next 48 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, from where, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it.

In the meantime, the U.K. has started a serious push to make Europe joining the U.S. sanctions. Quite predictable.
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NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:26 am

I'm afraid that all current evidence suggests that the aeroplane was hit by a missile that exploded - and that the aeroplane therefore came down in pieces. This reporter says that the debris is spread over some ten kilometres. The only thing one can say is that, at 33,000 feet, unconsciousness would probably have occurred within a very few seconds:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rs-glimpse-into-victims-lives.html
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 78):
It is not a theory. The Ukrainian Army relocated a division of BUK from Kharkov to Donetsk just few days before the tragedy.
We may have a situation when the rebels took one BUK complex some time ago, while five more were dislocated in the immediate proximity.

The pro-Russia terrorists did not take the launcher from Ukrainian armed forces. Two units were provided to them by the Russian army and were manned by Russians. The Units were missing associated radar control unit, so while they were able to track the target, they had no means of identifying it using IFF sensors.

There are pictures on the internet, showing concentration of heavy Russian equipment near the terrorist-controlled portion of the border. Furthermore, there is a video of Buk launcher fleeing to Russia on board the flatbed truck, with one of the missiles missing.

So, please, stop. Please.
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PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:30 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 188):
While US/EU members - what? They have own sources on the ground?

The media in the US is strongly influenced by checks and balances..... which means any sort of "propaganda" that would apparently come out of a media source will probably be reviewed upon by independent journalists, bloggers, etc. Basically, the PEOPLE in the US control the media.
Good example: whenever Fox News posts something that is incredibly Republican leaning, and not correctly reported: pretty much the rest of the US (including some Republicans) will completely destroy Fox News online, and thus, we learn what truly happened.

Independent journalism typically is a lot more accurate, so as long as the particular person is not reporting on an extreme bias.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 188):
You - no doubt - truly believe that MSM in Japan differ from Russian or Chinese MSM?

I have no clue what you're talking about....Aside from occasional eyebrow-raising reporting by NHK, the rest of the media in Japan is pretty dang good. Some even self-correct themselves....when that immolation incident happened last month, I believe it was Asahi that first posted that none of the major outlets reported on it in detail....NHK didn't report at all...but eventually, every other outlet did begin to report on the incident, putting pressure on NHK.

Do you see what I mean?
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:40 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 188):
What I am actually waiting: preliminary conclusion of the Russian intelligence.

That would be great. Really.

But seemingly there is no evidence that speaks in favour of the Russian side.

There are various options open for Mr. Putin. All of them can be advantageous for him, and earn him some credibility.

He can openly declare to end the support for the separatists, because they've shot down an airliner and murdered 298 innocents. And produce the evidence.

He can produce evidence that, in fact, were the Ukrainians who shot down the airliners, and use this to move their troops to Donetsk in order to protect civilians there.


David
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:44 am

Sure I know what you mean, PHX787.
I lived in the D.C. area for three years, working on H-1B visa. I perfectly know the U.S. MSM.
As to Japan, I imagine that you retrieve objective information the same way I (and our Chinese members; I suppose) used to do: getting various sources, blogs, etc.
I don't watch broadcast TV for many years.
What I am saying: you can't rely on MSM anywhere.
Just take today's "Washington Post." Sickening. Absolutely sickening. I am a WaPo subscriber since 1996. I keep it as a tradition. Even though it is one of the most Russophobic source in the whole world.
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:52 am

Flyingturtle, we Russians are not supposed to prove anything.
The BUK system has never been delivered to the rebels.
If there would any proof - sat images or anything, any little thing - it would be already in all tabloids. Oops, serious newspapers, I mean.
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JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:52 am

What is an "MSM"?  
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:05 am

It is a common abbreviation of "mainstream media."
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YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:14 am

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 195):
What is an "MSM"?

MSM = Main Stream Media ...
The usual news outlets where 'False Flag Operations' are given credibility..!

[Edited 2014-07-20 04:15:33]
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:14 am

The SBU just published what it says are tapped conversations between separatists who try to recover and hide the black boxes, under orders from "Moscow". The one passing on the order says that under no circumstances can the black boxes be allowed to fall in the hands of "others"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDt_LgoUv_8

In the third conversation, the guy in the field reports that they found something that looks like a black box (orange...) and he is promptly ordered to hide it.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:15 am

Quoting nasula (Reply 175):
This combo of course leads to every every single European to feel morally and intellectually superior to any of the superpowers and thus gives the right to critisize and chastise the idiotic citizens of said superpowers. This should never be questioned or argued against and just be thought of as a god given superior moral and intellectual capability, that should be praised for it's keen insight and unerring accuracy!  

Huh? Aside from this being the most pathetic piece of drivel I've ever seen, well, I'm speechless.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 190):
There are pictures on the internet, showing concentration of heavy Russian equipment near the terrorist-controlled portion of the border. Furthermore, there is a video of Buk launcher fleeing to Russia on board the flatbed truck, with one of the missiles missing.

So, please, stop. Please.

Look, I'm in the 'Russian separatists did it' camp. However, there are some in the US (Bob Baer, Former CIA officer to name one. Rick Francona, a retired Lieutenant Colonel and CIA and NSA guy, to name another) that have publicly said that the intelligence seems TOO GOOD. Particularly the images of the BUK launcher missing a missile and the telephone intercepts. They both said that it is NEVER this convenient.

Personally, out of all the 'experts paraded out by our media, I find these two to be most trustworthy and knowledgeable.

Let's ALL try to keep an open mind until we know more. There is propaganda in spades on all sides.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 194):

The rebels did have a Buk system, whether it was delivered by Russians or if they captured it from some Ukrainian base can be debated but its existence is a fact.

It's also a fact they shot MH17 down. Based on independent research I did after the crash through various original sources that's absolutely clear for me.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 197):
The usual news outlets where 'False Flag Operations' are given credibility..!

Most "false flag operations" don't exist anywhere else than inside heads of delusional and weakly minded people.

[Edited 2014-07-20 04:25:37]
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