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EK413
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:40 am

Hi All,

The previous discussion had 200+ response's & slow to load for some users so Part 6 has been created to continue the conversation.

The previous thread can be found here:

Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 5 (by EK413 Jul 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

We ask that you please be respectful to the victim's families. In addition do NOT post pictures of the crash site if they contain victims & ask that you link to them with a warning.

Additionally, this is a charged environment so please refrain from political, polarizing or likely flame-baiting comments in your replies.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
undertheradar
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:06 pm

I am reading on @PaulSonne twitter (Moscow correspondent for WSJ on site of M17 debris), that the armed rebels have largely disappeared from the scene....please let this be true...and PLEASE get some credible investigators/personnel to the scene ASAP to secure the area and co ordinate the situation
And reading the live feed on 'theguardian.com', various updates on things that may be happening.

I'm clinging on to any hope I can get.

[Edited 2014-07-20 05:18:01]

[Edited 2014-07-20 05:18:41]

[Edited 2014-07-20 05:23:04]
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:25 pm

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 1):
the armed rebels have largely disappeared from the scene

It's a bit too late even if true... If they indeed took things like the boxes and other bits of the most useful evidence then they have done what they intended to do...
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trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:26 pm

Quoting blue sky
Europe needs to think about developing or adapting an existing European organization that can examine these risks independently of the US, so that they can keep European airlines and people out of harms way and not fall into these kind of traps in the future


Yes it would be a good idea. It'll probably happen when the Euro governments are willing to face up to providing for their own defense and not depending on some former British colonials to do it for them ! It's not happening in our lifetime.

Don't sirlines notice if others are avoiding a route? I guess not. They don't check flight radar any more than separatists do!
 
PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:30 pm

I wanna go back to the media coverage for a bit:

http://www.businessinsider.com/malay...ront-pages-around-the-world-2014-7

Look at this article. It shows global media coverage of the incident.

Russia did not cover it, except for one business-oriented newspaper....but god only knows what they said (because I can't read Russian)
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YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:34 pm

It seems, again, that there could be more to this incident than what was immediately reported and broadly believed.

Here is an example:
Here’s the spin war verdict: the current Malaysian Airlines tragedy – the second in four months – is “terrorism” perpetrated by “pro-Russian separatists” armed by Russia and Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.
Why?
Because Anglo-American corporate media – from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) – said so.
Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so.
And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

You find this introduction here:
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/0...as-putins-missile-by-pepe-escobar/

It's an interesting article that raises a lot of pertinent and relevant questions.
None of which have been answered so far ....
 
727LOVER
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:35 pm

This is the actual plane.....just imagine.  
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steven Shi

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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:37 pm

according to reuters,the rebels still are in possession of the black boxes:

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/490833785068335104

Quote:
ReutersAerospaceNews ‏@ReutersAero

'Black boxes' from Ukraine crash site under our control: rebels http://reut.rs/1n5mjk4
via @reuters Although they're not sure what they have


---

Quote:

(Reuters) - A separatist leader said on Sunday they were keeping what they presumed
were the black boxes from the downed Malaysian airliner in the eastern city of Donetsk,
but they would need experts to confirm that they were the plane's flight recorders.

"Some items, presumably the black boxes, were found, and they have been delivered
to Donetsk and they are under our control," Aleksander Borodai, prime minister of the
self-styled Donetsk People's Republic, told a news conference.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...boxes-leader-idUSKBN0FP0DS20140720

[Edited 2014-07-20 05:45:48]
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 6):
This is the actual plane.....just imagine.

So many empty seats in that pic... Too bad MH17 wasn't as empty as that flight... MH17 was basically full  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
undertheradar
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 2):

At the moment, I'm more focused on the ' lost souls' and personal belongings that are still there...stopping them from further indignity and interference of being touched by those rebel apes.
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 5):

It seems, again, that there could be more to this incident than what was immediately reported and broadly believed.

Here is an example:
Here’s the spin war verdict: the current Malaysian Airlines tragedy – the second in four months – is “terrorism” perpetrated by “pro-Russian separatists” armed by Russia and Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.
Why?
Because Anglo-American corporate media – from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) – said so.
Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so.
And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

You find this introduction here:
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/0...as-putins-missile-by-pepe-escobar/

It's an interesting article that raises a lot of pertinent and relevant questions.
None of which have been answered so far ....



Having watched RT ever since it's been on cable tv in the US the last few years all I can say is that it's objectivity is about as good as FoxNews. ie it stinks. Only the North Korean ministry of information can be less objective than these 2 news sources. I'm sticking to the BBC world service and Al Jazeera.and maybe NHK and Deutsche Welle
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 9):
At the moment, I'm more focused on the ' lost souls' and personal belongings that are still there...stopping them from further indignity and interference of being touched by those rebel apes.

And that is a very noble thing.

If what some of the reports said are true regarding moving bodies etc. then that is completely disturbing and animal like behavior...
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 11):
If what some of the reports said are true regarding moving bodies etc. then that is completely disturbing and animal like behavior...

Apparently the retrieved bodies have been put into cooled freight rail cars. But some reports suggest that the train only was only guarded when OSCE personnel was present.

Let's just hope that among the rebels are some policemen who have some training in documenting accident sites. I hope they've made plenty of photos in order to reconstruct the crash site, the position of the bodies and stuff like that.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:17 pm

Are there any transcripts of the last communications from MH-17?
Also, what about radar images?

Much was made of the total loss of communications with MH-370 and the intermittent/unreliable radar images. As this incident happened in Europe, all that information ought to be readily available; or would it not be at this stage?

One would think that primary and secondary radar covered this flight all the way; where is the information from that?
Would or should a missile show up on radar?
One could easily imagine that the air traffic control centres from various countries have recordings of the communications from this aircraft; couldn't and shouldn't they be made available?
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 188):
What I am actually waiting: preliminary conclusion of the Russian intelligence.
They have been surveilling/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7.
In the next 48 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, from where, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it.

I am quite sure the Russian intelligence already knows all of that information - and the are trying to cover it up as fast as they can.
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davs5032
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 5):

It seems, again, that there could be more to this incident than what was immediately reported and broadly believed.

Here is an example:
Here’s the spin war verdict: the current Malaysian Airlines tragedy – the second in four months – is “terrorism” perpetrated by “pro-Russian separatists” armed by Russia and Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.
Why?
Because Anglo-American corporate media – from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) – said so.
Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so.
And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

It's really not worth getting that upset over. Also I don't see the need to criticize one race like that has anything to do with it. It's just amazing how people take opinions stated by invited guests on a conservative TV station and treat it like it's de-facto opinion of every citizen in that country. The good thing about the USA, and other (truly) free countries, is the ability to speak your opinions and have a balancing of opposite viewpoints that are widely available to the public. The ironic thing is that - despite all of the criticism that Fox News gets from keyboard tough guys - it is the only national news station giving that side of the argument. Every single other national news station is FAR left - as in further left than socialism. But Fox caters to a strong (majority) demand in the country therefore its ratings are laughably higher than anyone else. My point, though, is that all of the viewpoints are out there, with the minority viewpoints even getting more press in most cases, so you can't look at it with blinders on...have to see the whole picture.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 16):

And they should publish what they know. In the case of MH370, Malaysia also published what they otherwise keep secret (e.g. military radar returns, which can give indications about the capabilities of their radars).


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
slinky09
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 5):
It's an interesting article that raises a lot of pertinent and relevant questions.
None of which have been answered so far ....

Thanks for posting a link to a blog written by an analyst for the Kremlin funded Russia Today. Hmm, let me think if that presents any possible bias for about a .... millisecond.

On the ground, I am glad to see that some attempt is being made to give dignity to the dead, let's hope those bodies do not become game pieces for Putin's crew.
 
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zeke
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
And they should publish what they know. In the case of MH370, Malaysia also published what they otherwise keep secret (e.g. military radar returns, which can give indications about the capabilities of their radars).

The problem is who is the "they" ?

Under ICAO accident investigation protocols, information can only be released with the approval of the authority conducting the investigation, interested parties (e.g. Boeing, FAA, NTSB, RR, Malaysia) should not release information independently. With MH370, the Malaysian authorities started the investigation, information released was done by them.

While this accident clearly occurred within the Ukraine boarder, it is well understood that a more transparent investigation could occur if it was a somewhat more neutral state conducting it. I see Germany positioning itself as offering its assistance to perform the investigation.

The aircraft would appear to have been on a standard one way eastbound airway (L980), and flight paths on 10-12 hour flight change all the time as upper level winds change, there is another airway that MH also use further south for this route (M70), both L980 and M70 converge to the same airway to the east of Ukraine. The great circle track between AMS and KUL takes an aircraft into the area it was shot down.
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trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:43 pm

Can you alter the data on the flight recorders or would any such attempt just delete what is already recorded or make it unusable?
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 14):

Are there any transcripts of the last communications from MH-17?
Also, what about radar images?

Much was made of the total loss of communications with MH-370 and the intermittent/unreliable radar images. As this incident happened in Europe, all that information ought to be readily available; or would it not be at this stage?

One would think that primary and secondary radar covered this flight all the way; where is the information from that?
Would or should a missile show up on radar?
One could easily imagine that the air traffic control centres from various countries have recordings of the communications from this aircraft; couldn't and shouldn't they be made available?

Of what benefit and use would releasing radar recordings have?

The track of the aircraft is known and undisputed; fact.
The aircraft was in level flight at FL330; fact.
The aircraft was hit by a surface to air missile at an undisputed lat and long position, at a known time; fact.
The aircraft fell to the ground with an impact zone stretching over 10 miles in length; fact.

What extra detail would a copy of the radar recordings provide?

Composite radar filters out spurious returns, so I suspect the missile will not have shown up except on raw Primary; it still would not shed any further light on this atrocity, unless Mr Putin thinks by showing it was launched in Ukraine, it proves it wasn't one of his.   

What right do you think we, as mere observers, have in demanding radar recordings and other evidence before an investigation has barely started, let alone been completed?

I whiff another conspiracy theory in the making that radar recordings are being suppressed to hide evidence; good luck on that one!!

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PW100
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 13):
Here another proof those bloody russians try to cover it all up, we should nuke those [email protected]#$%!!

Off course you want us then also to nuke Washington for shooting down Iran A300. Oh, wait, you mean an Iranian civilian life is worth nothing, and European lives are . . . . .
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ASA
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 20):
What right do you think we, as mere observers, have in demanding radar recordings and other evidence before an investigation has barely started, let alone been completed?

I whiff another conspiracy theory in the making that radar recordings are being suppressed to hide evidence; good luck on that one!!

We have as much right as the other posters who are also "mere observers" and are implying from the get-go and assigning blame to a particular side ... so the other side has the same right to ask for ALL DATA to be made available before these assumptions take hold. Just sayin'
 
petertenthije
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:26 pm

At least one of the black boxes has definately been found as there is footage of emergency services carrying the box to a staging area.

It is not clear who has the black box and where it has been/will be taken.


http://www.telegraaf.nl/tv/nieuws/bi...__Zwarte_doos_MH17_gevonden__.html
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jmp367
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:36 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 199):


Quoting nasula,reply=175:
This combo of course leads to every every single European to feel morally and intellectually superior to any of the superpowers and thus gives the right to critisize and chastise the idiotic citizens of said superpowers. This should never be questioned or argued against and just be thought of as a god given superior moral and intellectual capability, that should be praised for it's keen insight and unerring accuracy!

Huh? Aside from this being the most pathetic piece of drivel I've ever seen, well, I'm speechless.

Nasula's comment just goes to show the level of European smugness of their own self-proclaimed moral and intellectual superiority that is so often subtlly on display by a number of Europeans. Although the sarcasm in Nasula's comment hasn't eluded me, it still displays a general attitude towards citizens of a certain nation.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:37 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 5):
It seems, again, that there could be more to this incident than what was immediately reported and broadly believed.

Pro russkies thought MH17 was an Ukrainian Antonov and shot it down with a weapon system most likely given to them by the Russian government. End of the story, this is pretty much as clear as Iran Air 655 case.
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Aesma
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:38 pm

I quoted YoungMans reply linking to an article raising "a lot of pertinent and relevant questions" and qualified it as conspirationism, my reply was then deleted as being flamebait.

Yet YoungMans' reply, containing a link to an article full of expressions like "false flag operation" is still here. Who is doing the flamebaiting exactly ?
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bjorn14
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:39 pm

The Times of India reportd that rebels fforced recovery wworkers at gunpoint to load the 190ish bodies they found into railway cars-
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rabenschlag
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Pro russkies thought MH17 was an Ukrainian Antonov and shot it down with a weapon system most likely given to them by the Russian government. End of the story, this is pretty much as clear as Iran Air 655 case.

I almost forgot about Iran Air 655. An interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655.
 
Mitico12
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:43 pm

The amateur nature of the recovery effort from this disaster is quite amusing and befuddling. It's like asking a cave man to program a DVR...I'm just floored.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):

I quoted YoungMans reply linking to an article raising "a lot of pertinent and relevant questions" and qualified it as conspirationism, my reply was then deleted as being flamebait.

Yet YoungMans' reply, containing a link to an article full of expressions like "false flag operation" is still here. Who is doing the flamebaiting exactly ?

That happened a few times before in the MH17-therads. The conspiracy drivel stays, but posts calling it just what it is get deleted.   
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panampaul
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:49 pm

The rebel leader of Donetsk in the Ukraine now says he has the black boxes (he says he as "artifacts" which he believes are the black boxes, although the word "artifacts" is a bit scary or could just be a bad translation as I imagine pieces of black box based on the verbiage).

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Black Boxes Found, Will be Turned Over to International Authorities

The conflicting reports of what's been secured, what's not cordoned off, etc. are just this side of incredible in today's age. We are able to report on it and send video footage, but we can't secure it? Seriously?
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:58 pm

And then it rained human bodies and debris from Malaysian Airlines MH17.

“Big birds flying to us from the sky,” one child recalled, thinking at that moment anything else was unimaginable.

In the home next door a man still strapped into his seat landed in a garden of an elderly grandmother. She thinks it was a man — there was nothing above the torso.

Across rooftops things fell, books, bags, knives and forks then later a section of a cockpit landed across the road from the orphanage.


Eight bodies in total were found in that small area alone..


http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...-dead/story-fnizu68q-1226995435590
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Revelation
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting panampaul (Reply 31):
The rebel leader of Donetsk in the Ukraine now says he has the black boxes

Eerie parallels to TANS Perú Flight 204 where looters ended up with the FDR and a $500 "reward" was paid for its return...
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JetBuddy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 29):
The amateur nature of the recovery effort from this disaster is quite amusing and befuddling. It's like asking a cave man to program a DVR...I'm just floored.

I don't find it amusing at all. It's just tragic. And I don't believe the recovery effort progress is due to stupidity.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:20 pm

What's the chance that what they think they have in their possession is a black box is actually some avionics equipment or other, because it's black?
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:20 pm

"Kerry said the United States had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sis-airplane-idUSKBN0FP02O20140720

If the U.S. "had seen," it would not be a problem to show us a 150-vehicle convoy. It would a great evidence.
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MigPilot
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 20):
What extra detail would a copy of the radar recordings provide?

Of course there could be useful information from such data. For example, if there were other aircraft near MH17, especially military ones.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 36):
If the U.S. "had seen," it would not be a problem to show us a 150-vehicle convoy. It would a great evidence.

And we know who would be the first to say it was faked. The U.S. government has no obligations to a.netters. They'll release the evidence to a properly constituted investigation.
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Aesma
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 35):
What's the chance that what they think they have in their possession is a black box is actually some avionics equipment or other, because it's black?

On the day of the crash I was watching RT and a female "journalist" in Eastern Ukraine was already reporting that the rebels had claimed to have recovered the "eight black boxes" to give you an idea.
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:55 pm

Okay. It seems to be quite appropriate to keep evidence and hand it over to an investigation authority.

In the meantime, who is this Carlos, an air traffic controller? If he is in existence and alive, I hope he will appear somewhere.
His tweets are really something.
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trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 21):


Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 13):
Here another proof those bloody russians try to cover it all up, we should nuke those [email protected]#$%!!

Off course you want us then also to nuke Washington for shooting down Iran A300. Oh, wait, you mean an Iranian civilian life is worth nothing, and European lives are . . . . .


Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"


US never denied shooting it down. We can argue whether justice was achieved by the US claiming the navy crew carried out its duties properly in the fog of war, personally I think it was total screwup by the crew who were negligent . US also paid over 100 million in compensation to the families and they would have gotten the money a decade earlier if Tehran didn't insist it be paid to the Iranian government first and not directly to the families
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:17 pm

From what I can tell, the 'common people' of the USA are blaming the Oligarchs. The press tends to print what people want to read. Not good PR:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...ron-russia-malaysia_n_5602610.html

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 36):
If the U.S. "had seen," it would not be a problem to show us a 150-vehicle convoy. It would a great evidence.

It would be a problem to give away our intelligence sources.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 30):
That happened a few times before in the MH17-therads. The conspiracy drivel stays, but posts calling it just what it is get deleted.

Sad but true.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
blrsea
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:20 pm

From investigation and culpability point of view, how were the previous instances of civilian aircraft that were shot down handled? Were any of the countries/personnel involved arrested for mass murder and jailed for life? Who led the investigations and where were the judicial proceedings held?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 20):
What extra detail would a copy of the radar recordings provide?

In all aircraft crash investigations, at least in the US, involving a possible in-flight breakup - primary radar is used to confirm if there was another aircraft or object in the area. Primary radar has confirmed the presence of birds in the past which determined unsuspected bird strikes caused a crash. Primary radar returns might show the missile track.

Of course the problem is who has primary radar coverage of the area of a degree sufficient to show a missile launch and flight? Most likely Russia not the Ukraine.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 36):
If the U.S. "had seen," it would not be a problem to show us a 150-vehicle convoy. It would a great evidence.

It has been shown to the media world wide, and bragged about by Russian government officials.

I hate to say this, but you keep referring to statements confirmed in the world wide media by the Russian government as not being true.

[Edited 2014-07-20 10:34:15]
 
727LOVER
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 27):
The Times of India reportd that rebels fforced recovery wworkers at gunpoint to load the 190ish bodies they found into railway cars-

Yeah, sorry.....I'll wait until I see that in the New York Times
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 40):
Okay. It seems to be quite appropriate to keep evidence and hand it over to an investigation authority.

In the meantime, who is this Carlos, an air traffic controller? If he is in existence and alive, I hope he will appear somewhere.
His tweets are really something.
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/201...ne-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

He is a troll. Even the Spanish Embassy in Kyiv denied their existence, and the ATC association in Spain knew nothing about a Spanish ATC working in UA, and they even certified that some of his "priviliged" information would be impossible for a civilian ATC to know about. Anyway, everything seemed very logical, a Spaniard working as an ATC controller in Ukraine (likely not allowed for a foreigner due to the nature of the work) tweeting alive "confidential" military information (which a civilian ATC wouldn't have access in normal circumstances) from the control tower in Kyiv, without not even posting a picture of Ukraine. Of course, some people buy it...

Very logical? What is better, Russia Today interviewed him a few weeks ago (of course, you couldn't see his face and his voice was distorted, you wonder why) to give his impression of the crisis.

The whole thing would be hilarious (particularly regarding RT) if it wouldn't be a tragedy
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 43):
From investigation and culpability point of view, how were the previous instances of civilian aircraft that were shot down handled? Were any of the countries/personnel involved arrested for mass murder and jailed for life? Who led the investigations and where were the judicial proceedings held?

The nation where the crash occurs has jurisdiction, though the nation which owned the aircraft has often launched their own investigation.

No - the people who actually shot down the aircraft are not held personally accountable if it was done by the military, nor are their superiors who ordered the aircraft shot down. Several times, the nation responsible for shooting down the airliner has paid compensation to the families.

A bit over half the commercial airliners shot down have been done by militants/ rebels/ insurgents - so we don't know what happened
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:39 pm

pylon101, I wonder what you think of your decent and honest compatriots.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/miriamelder/...ers-at-the-dutch-embassy-in-moscow

Even though - or probably because - Vlad has tried his best to keep Russia in the dark, they seem to draw their own logical conclusions, based on their experience with 14 years of Putin's government.
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 43):


From investigation and culpability point of view, how were the previous instances of civilian aircraft that were shot down handled? Were any of the countries/personnel involved arrested for mass murder and jailed for life? Who led the investigations and where were the judicial proceedings held?



In the shootdown of the Korean 747, the forced down Korean 707 by the Soviets, the Israeli shootdown Libyan Arab 727 or the American shootdown of the Iran air A300 there wasn't much debate about who shot it down initially except for the KE 747 where the Soviets did initially deny they did it. The issues under contention was why were the planes there, did the military act reasonably.
These also occurred in air/land/sea where there wasn't a war going on between fractions who won't even talk to each other and there was at least one nation in control or it was in international waters.

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