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747megatop
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:43 pm

With the DHL incident over Afghanistan where an aircraft was nearly downed by a missile and now MH 17 downing leading to loss of all passengers + crew; will both incidents now accelerate the installation of missile defense on commercial aircraft? Northrop already has the Guardian system - http://www.gizmag.com/guardian-syste...om-terrorist-missile-threats/9019/

Elbit systems of Israel has another system and Israel seems to be going ahead with outfitting their commercial aircraft - http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...laser-anti-missile-defense-system/
 
blrsea
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
No - the people who actually shot down the aircraft are not held personally accountable if it was done by the military, nor are their superiors who ordered the aircraft shot down. Several times, the nation responsible for shooting down the airliner has paid compensation to the families.

Thanks for the info. I was looking at the Iran Air 655 incident, and it looks like the US never claimed responsibility or apologised for that incident. They did pay around $62 million after the case went to ICJ.

Lots of similarities between the Iranair 655 & this MH17 incident, with the role of US reversed. I am guessing it will follow same trajectory, with Russia denying any involvement.
 
btfarrwm
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:59 pm

I know this will stir the pot, but If we already know the plane was shot down by a SAM, there's not much need for a true forensic investigation. A missile that was designed to bring down an airplane did it's job. The Ukranians and Russians will point fingers and make accusations until they are blue in the face. We need to focus on preserving and protecting human remains.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 51):
it looks like the US never claimed responsibility

The US quickly acknowledged the ship had shot down a civilian airliner. Faster than the Soviets acknowledged shooting down KAL007. The US admitted responsibility for a mistake by the crew of the ship. Having known some people on the ship, I am personally certain it was a mistake. It haunts many of those crewmen to this day. But others will never believe that.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 51):
They did pay around $62 million after the case went to ICJ.

The ICJ case was dropped. The US was always willing to pay damages to the families. It was not willing to enrich the government of Iran. When that demand was dropped, the US agreed to the settlement.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 50):
will both incidents now accelerate the installation of missile defense on commercial aircraft?

No.

IR oriented defenses for shoulder fired low level missiles such as both systems you linked will be used by some, but the percentage of aircraft equipped with those systems will always be miniscule.

Defense against the type of missile that shot down MH17 takes a multi-million dollar active radar jamming system, and a trained high skill aerobatic pilot in an aircraft that can pull high G turns and evasive maneuvers.

No matter what movies like Top-Gun show - the best current fighters in the world have only a 50/50 or less chance of surviving a hard lock by the missile that shot down MH17 if they do not have on board a jammer preset to the specific frequencies and targeting radar controls systems of the Buk2.

Though the Buk2 missiles cost upwards of $250,000 each, they are still a relatively cheap effective weapon to take out multi-million dollar aircraft.

That's the basic problem - missiles that can destroy aircraft are relatively cheap, and even the most expensive and sophisticated defensive systems are not really reliable.

[Edited 2014-07-20 11:09:56]
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2175301
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 51):
Thanks for the info. I was looking at the Iran Air 655 incident, and it looks like the US never claimed responsibility or apologised for that incident. They did pay around $62 million after the case went to ICJ.

Not exactly. The US clearly acknowledged that they did shoot it down - and very quickly (I think within an hour if my memory is correct).

The argument for "legal responsibility" given the conflict and embargo in the area at the time was a different argument, and I would need to research that to see how that played out.

Have a great day,
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 48):
pylon101, I wonder what you think of your decent and honest compatriots.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/miriamelder/...ers-at-the-dutch-embassy-in-moscow

Nice to see this.    I feel for all the decent and critically minded people I got to meet in Moscow. Not every Russian has a dagger between his teeth.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
flymia
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 50):
With the DHL incident over Afghanistan where an aircraft was nearly downed by a missile and now MH 17 downing leading to loss of all passengers + crew; will both incidents now accelerate the installation of missile defense on commercial aircraft? Northrop already has the Guardian system - http://www.gizmag.com/guardian-syste...om-terrorist-missile-threats/9019/

Simply put, no. It cost millions per plane for a threat that is not widespread. Some airlines have them on some planes in their fleet because they fly into places like Afghanistan and Iraq where there is a threat on landing and takeoff.

Those systems currently used also would probably not had saved MH 17. Unless if becomes a once a year thing and not once a decade airlines would be putt any defense systems on the planes any time soon.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:22 pm

SeJoWa, I fully support people leaving flowers. I would do the same. I just live in the far suburb of Moscow.
We are not going to discuss Russia and Putin. It's a completely different subject.
However, if I see a real evidence against the rebels - I will accept it. I don't support them. And many Russians don't.
If I see the Kerry's evidence showing 150 vehicles crossing RF-UA border, with BUK-1M launchers, I will say: "It was absolutely wrong."
I support Putin. I have voted for him every time since the year 2000.
However, I don't like people like Rogozin in the government and people like Pushkov in the State Duma.
So I am open for any judgment.
I am not related to the Russian state in any possible way.
I actually work on infrastructure investment projects aimed to strengthen the GCC monarchies.

Thus, I am open and I am decent. And being a-netter since the year 2008, I really think what I am saying.
This thread and this tragedy just revealed political differences between people here. People whose opinions I value.
So what? We differ. It's okay.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting panampaul (Reply 31):
We are able to report on it and send video footage, but we can't secure it? Seriously?

Because thugs with guns are preventing that.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 57):
I fully support people leaving flowers. I would do the same. I just live in the far suburb of Moscow.
We are not going to discuss Russia and Putin. It's a completely different subject.
However, if I see a real evidence against the rebels - I will accept it.

Russia and Puting is not a different subject; Russia and Putin armed the thugs, give them the weapons, and backed them to the hilt. If you want "real evidence" against the rebels, all you have to do is look at their own starements and film clips - it shows those rebels, those weapons, and the bragging they did about shooting down a plane - bragging, at least, until they discivered it was MH17. All that is clearly available - unless the Russian censors are blocking you from viewing it,
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turn720
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:40 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 21):
Off course you want us then also to nuke Washington for shooting down Iran A300. Oh, wait, you mean an Iranian civilian life is worth nothing, and European lives are . . . . .

This seems to get regurgitated so lets get one thing straight. This was a horrible event and not a single American is proud that this happened. However, despite not apologizing to state of Iran the U.S. did own up to it. We did apologize to the individual families involved and settled it for $200K compensation for each victim. (That's about $550K in today's money)

Tell me, will Russia or their rebel friends compensate the victims in this incident? Will they even own up to it?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:47 pm

The video in this news article shows a Міністерство надзвичайних ситуацій України (?) worker carrying one of the recorders: http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-07/mh17-tote-geborgen


David
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:49 pm

I don't accept evidence published via Twitter or YouTube.
I remembered that the rebels boated they took BUK from the Ukrainian military.
But to imagine that the Russian officials could authorize the delivery of BUK-1M to the rebels is something beyond my knowledge how the Russian state works.
Such things require a million of signatures from various state authorities and approvals of other authorities, etc.
Too much responsibility for guys driving BMW of the 5th series, or those being driven in BMW of the 7th series.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
I don't accept evidence published via Twitter or YouTube. I remembered that the rebels boated they took BUK from the Ukrainian military.But to imagine that the Russian officials could authorize the delivery of BUK-1M to the rebels is something beyond my knowledge how the Russian state works.Such things require a million of signatures from various state authorities and approvals of other authorities, etc.Too much responsibility for guys driving BMW of the 5th series, or those being driven in BMW of the 7th series.

Of course the delivery of the BUK missiles to the rebels had been approved at the highest level of Russian government, meaning Mr Putin. And he most likely didn't have to sign anything. Nobody thought beforehand that the rebels would mistakenly shoot down a passenger aircraft.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:04 pm

Cui bono?
What's the reason to supply them BUK? They don't need this kind of missiles.

Actually, I had a very interesting conversation today.
If the fragments of missile are found, "Almaz-Antei" (the manufacturer; sanctioned by the U.S. government) can clearly determine when the missile was made.
They can also track where it was delivered.
They keep samples of metal used; the alloys used actually differ (slightly). Which makes possible to learn a lot.

Let us all come down and try to look "out of the box." We did it when we discussed AF 447. We can do better now.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
Міністерство надзвичайних ситуацій України (?)

Ukrainian Ministry of Emergency Situations. Similar to for instance the US FEMA or German THW.

A local Dutch newspaper is reporting that the Netherlands will do the international coordination of the victim identification. For this they will open a temporary base at Charkov airport that will stay there as long as needed. Later tonight the air force will send a C-130 with people and equipment.

Members of the Dutch transport safety board as well as forensic experts arrived in Kiev last friday along with minister Frans Timmermans (foreign affairs office). According to a spokesperson they are "nearby the disaster area". Monday morning they can enter the area as soon as permission is granted.

http://www.bd.nl/nederland-co%C3%B6r...rt-identificatie-charkov-1.4457749
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
What's the reason to supply them BUK? They don't need this kind of missiles.

For shooting down Ukrainian military planes, including AN-26, flying above the MANPAD range.
 
nasula
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting jmp367 (Reply 24):
Nasula's comment just goes to show the level of European smugness of their own self-proclaimed moral and intellectual superiority that is so often subtlly on display by a number of Europeans. Although the sarcasm in Nasula's comment hasn't eluded me, it still displays a general attitude towards citizens of a certain nation.

Sigh. The intent of the last paragraph was to ridicule a nationality's or individual's self-proclaims to be of superior morals or intellect or broad generalization about people in other countries or continents. Apparently the attempt failed. It seems to be a much more sensitive (off-)topic than I realized.

Won't try it again on this forum    and I apologize if anyone was offended by reading something from the text that wasn't there.

Just to be clear: The last paragraph was pure sarcasm directed at the notion that any continent or nationality would be better equipped morally or intellectually to be able to pass judgement on another in public. Any inference to "a general attitude towards citizens of a certain nation" is in the eye of the beholder.
 
blrsea
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 53):
The US quickly acknowledged the ship had shot down a civilian airliner. Faster than the Soviets acknowledged shooting down KAL007. The US admitted responsibility for a mistake by the crew of the ship. Having known some people on the ship, I am personally certain it was a mistake. It haunts many of those crewmen to this day. But others will never believe that.
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 54):
Not exactly. The US clearly acknowledged that they did shoot it down - and very quickly (I think within an hour if my memory is correct).

The argument for "legal responsibility" given the conflict and embargo in the area at the time was a different argument, and I would need to research that to see how that played out.

Yes, I meant "legal responsibility", and they never even apologized for shooting it down. And reading the wikipedia article, it looked like there were many reasons to avoid shooting the civilian aircraft, other than being trigger-happy. Looks like the ukrainian rebels did the same thing. However, the question is, did they have all the information required to determine that it was a civilian aircraft, given that they had shot down a ukrainian transport aircraft earlier. And even the intercepted transcript shows that the rebels were surprised that a civil aircraft was in that airspace.
 
boacvc10
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:26 pm

Not sure how to ask this: SA series missile system or BUK series missile system? There are news articles (with varying sources) that mention one or the other, and the US is also saying (now), SA-11, but in Wiki on Buk Missile System System Composition Table, there are many variants.

Did the operators of the missile not realize they were tracking a profile of an aircraft that was cruising at an altitude higher than the Antonov transport could have ever achieved ? How could the SA-xxxx series launcher offer that as a target ? Was there an override feature so operators could manually take a shot? Doesn't that imply training on that console ?
Up, up and Away!
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
Such things require a million of signatures from various state authorities and approvals of other authorities, etc.

You really think that kind of decision is put on paper?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 68):
Did the operators of the missile not realize they were tracking a profile of an aircraft that was cruising at an altitude higher than the Antonov transport could have ever achieved ? How could the SA-xxxx series launcher offer that as a target ?

It's not like the operator can tell the system to only show specific plane types. The system will show all planes within range. It is up to the operator to decide whether or not to pull the trigger. A trained and disciplined operator would have verified it as a transiting commercial jet. The moron playing weekend-warrior that day clearly did not.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
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GDB
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 53):
The US quickly acknowledged the ship had shot down a civilian airliner. Faster than the Soviets acknowledged shooting down KAL007.

Indeed, later, in that decade or so after the end of the USSR and prior to the Putin clampdown, the pilot of the SU-15 who brought down the 747, says he had to 're-record' his comms with his controllers, to try and frame the story the USSR was spinning.
To make it seem more 'genuine' an electric razor was running near his mike too, it gives the impression of background noise (like in a jet fighter cockpit) in a primitive recording.

The hapless pilot might not have been ordered to fire his AA-3 missile at the 747 had his gun pod had some tracer rounds in it's ammo, for, you know, having the warning shots he tried first be visible at night.

Brutish and incompetent. Ill equipped aircraft, inflexible command and control then, to letting some rubes with help, but not enough help, be let loose with a system that can down an aircraft twice as high as a commercial jet flies.
In 2014 as in 1983, yes Vlad has brought back elements of the USSR as he has craved.

[Edited 2014-07-20 13:00:02]
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
But to imagine that the Russian officials could authorize the delivery of BUK-1M to the rebels is something beyond my knowledge how the Russian state works.

That really is no surprise. Based on the (considerable) amount of time I have spent there, I know many Russians have no true knowledge of how the Russian state works; the Russian state wants to keep it that way.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
I don't accept evidence published via Twitter or YouTube.

Do you accept "evidence" published by Pravda or RT "News"? Almost any state-controlled media - Russian or otherwise - would be by definition less independent than even social media sites.

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 68):
Not sure how to ask this: SA series missile system or BUK series missile system? There are news articles (with varying sources) that mention one or the other, and the US is also saying (now), SA-11,

The US military designates it as a SA-11. The Russians call it a BUK. They are the same.

[Edited 2014-07-20 12:50:21]
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:53 pm

The SA11 is the actual missile the Buk is the whole missile launcher system just as a US Avenger system has Stinger missiles.
 
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):

yes "if" pieces of fragments will be found. That why it took days to let others to the scene. They needed those days to cover up the evidence probably.
 
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:36 pm

For those who are interested, https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/ with high quality photo's of the scene
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:48 pm

First, the SA numbers are NATO reporting codes, in Russian the missile systems are named quite differently, e.g. NATO code SA-7 is STRELA in Russian. Similarly NATO code SA-11 is BUK in Russian.

From what I have heard about this system is that when you have one TELAR ( erector, launcher) as depicted in multiple posts only, not the whole battery consisting of 4 TELARS, one transperter loader launcher, onecommand vehicle and one long range target aquisition radar vehicle, the TELAR can still engage single targets with it's own guidance radar, but it lacks the airspace overview and altitude information coming from the target aquisition radar. It seems that the rebels did either not capture or receive a full working BUK battery, or that they could find the manpower to operate it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:52 pm

At a family meeting for only the victims of flight mh17, a malaysian airline spokesmen said that there was a distress call from the pilot to the airtraffic controller, and told them about a rapidly descent. So i guess some were still alive, gosh a horrible dead it must be.

link is in dutch:

http://joostniemoller.nl/2014/07/bre...van-piloot-mh17-bij-snelle-daling/

[Edited 2014-07-20 13:53:31]
 
aw70
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 76):
First, the SA numbers are NATO reporting codes, in Russian the missile systems are named quite differently, e.g. NATO code SA-7 is STRELA in Russian. Similarly NATO code SA-11 is BUK in Russian.

The nearest Russian equivalent of the "SA-11" NATO code would not be the Russian colloquial names, like Buk and such, but the GRAU code of the system in question (9K37 for the Buk system, for instance).
 
jmp367
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting nasula (Reply 66):
Sigh. The intent of the last paragraph was to ridicule a nationality's or individual's self-proclaims to be of superior morals or intellect or broad generalization about people in other countries or continents. Apparently the attempt failed. It seems to be a much more sensitive (off-)topic than I realized.

Won't try it again on this forum and I apologize if anyone was offended by reading something from the text that wasn't there.

Just to be clear: The last paragraph was pure sarcasm directed at the notion that any continent or nationality would be better equipped morally or intellectually to be able to pass judgement on another in public. Any inference to "a general attitude towards citizens of a certain nation" is in the eye of the beholder.

Fair enough, there's a lot of contentious things being said as of recent, I think we all need to tone it down and be rational.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 67):
it looked like there were many reasons to avoid shooting the civilian aircraft,

There were also many reasons the crew of the ship thought the aircraft was an F-14 making an attack run. The Wikipedia article is a highly political and doesn't tell the whole truth from either the US or Iranian view.

There is no doubt that shooting down that airliner was wrong and a low point in the history of the US Navy. But it wasn't a deliberate act to kill civilians either. It was a horrible tragic mistake.

I don't believe that the downing of MH17 was anything other than a horrible mistake either. Unlike the IR655 shootdown, the rebels manning the BUK systems very likely didn't have the training or background to tell the difference between tracking a jetliner or a military transport like an IL-76 which they've shot down recently.

[Edited 2014-07-20 14:27:50]
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petertenthije
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 77):
link is in dutch:

http://joostniemoller.nl/2014/07/bre...ling/

I would like to see that confirmed by more reputable sources. It may well be true, but reading the comments this website does seem to attract the tinfoil hat brigade.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
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rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
What's the reason to supply them BUK? They don't need this kind of missiles.

The target aircraft are IL-76 and AN-26 aircraft. Shoulder launched missiles won't reach those in many locations.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
AYVN
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 57):
Quoting blrsea (Reply 67):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 76):
TELAR can still engage single targets with it's own guidance radar, but it lacks the airspace overview and altitude information coming from the target aquisition radar. It seems that the rebels did either not capture or receive a full working BUK battery, or that they could find the manpower to operate it.

Acording to Finnish military personel, BUK launcher alone will have target altitude information late, but before launch desicion is made. It just seems that information was missed.
 
blrsea
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 80):
I don't believe that the downing of MH17 was anything other than a horrible mistake either. Unlike the IR655 shootdown, the rebels manning the BUK systems very likely didn't have the training or background to tell the difference between tracking a jetliner or a military transport like an IL-76 which they've shot down recently.

Agree with this one. Highly tragic for the civilians killed in these type of incidents. Unfortunately, there will still be a big political game on this issue.
 
CO953
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:58 pm

I'm trying to set a "'Silent Cal' Coolidge" example here, as a a majority-time lurker, by cutting my commenting on this topic down to nothing, recognizing my own current lack of useful input, and letting those aviation experts who know better than I to sort out the details, I have had opinions but am more interested to watch the A-Net regulars sort out this very irregular event. It does involve politics, and also war, and so - with this particular topic - I applaud the moderators' admonishments to stay civil and on topic.

As a generalist and long-time student of the mechanics of war, my father with an appertaining military career which I was so blessed to discuss with him but could never hope to approach, my cumulative input after my one earlier post from a few days ago would be this, and I'll just let this one fly and not harp on it:

Any controlling, involved, political entity, official or not but engaged in the current insurrection in Ukraine (yes, artificially augmented or not - reports vary, but it fits the definition of an insurrection against Ukraine sovereignty, which insurrection, by many accounts, is abetted by a neighbor to quietly but forcibly wrest from Ukraine its sovereignty over its eastern parts), which political or non-political entity is still denying, by any unreasonable temporal or bureaucratic delay, complete, impartial access to the proper aviation authorities to completely secure the crash site and eject any incursors, would seem to be complicit in or guilty of a War Crime, as long as such blockading entity is signatory to the Geneva Conventions.

At this point, the Ukraine government seems, by reports, to have authorized full access to the crash site, to the limits of its authority. As Andrew Jackson once said, to paraphrase, "Justice Marshall and what Army?"

It would seem to me, if Putin wants to avoid additional Western outrage that will engrave Western hearts against his seemingly progressing revanchist designs on empire, that he would be doubly served - (thereby preserving his own seemingly evident dual ends of - on the one hand - putting out the fire against him and Russia, and also - on the other - of dampening a swelling international outcry against the Ukrainian "separatists" with which he is repeatedly linked, by using his apparent, widely-reported, paterno-mentorial - or whatever they are called - ties to the Ukraine "separatists") - PRONTO - to enforce complete, normal, fully transparent, after-crash access and process, making full diplomatic and otherwise use of his strong circumstantial ties to all of the warring parties controlling access to the location of the wreck and of the unrecovered foreign citizens.

Any intentional act later found to have been an intentional hindrance to the crash site should accrue to a carefully documented ledger detailing cause of later legal action in the interest of justice, in the War Crimes tribunal of the United Nations. Putin needs to back off his self-hewn plank, and quickly.

We are three days now into the agony of the victims' families, and into the geopolitical ramifications. I believe that absent immediate, full access to the crash site, a fully badged and armed United Nations team, composed of members per the current proper organization chart of the UN, and purposely ABSENT any adjustment for the current warfare in Ukraine and absent any adjustment for the feelings of Ukraine or Russia, the parties of the the current hot, unadmitted war in the Ukraine, would be eminently dispatchable, immediately, under a white flag of truce, to secure the site before another night has fallen on the likely remaining remains of loved ones still lying under the skies of their killing fields. Said team backed up by lethal force, and clear intentions transmitted beforehand.

IMO, regarding normalizing the after-crash procedures, Putin needs to take every step he can right now today, if he's not to be forever seen as heartless. If swift measures are not taken by involved nations to normalize the crash site, I advocate a global ban on landing rights of adversarially involved nations outside their own countries, progressing to a general shutdown of their aviation rights. Yeah, I know this is the "Hawk" mentality. But you don't screw with the black boxes or the wreck, in my opinion, and I don't care what language you speak and who you are.
I just don't want to see any more time pass by before these poor souls are sent home IMMEDIATELY, and the scene is immediately secured by non-partisan aviation parties, backed up by UN-backed military.

This week-long political triage of people's loved ones, and forensic mutilation of the crash site should not be allowed to become the new normal, whether it's near Russia or not.

RIP and heartfelt condolences, victims & families.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8600
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:59 pm

Even if evidence is tampered, this crash site is already well recorded by 100+ freelancers. May be technology will allow experts to virtually reconstruct the plane. Good thing freelancers got there first before main stream media.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Scipio
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 5):
It seems, again, that there could be more to this incident than what was immediately reported and broadly believed.

The FSB strikes back...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Look at this article. It shows global media coverage of the incident.

Interesting that, among western newspapers, Le Monde seems to have been the only one not carrying the news on its front page...

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 36):
If the U.S. "had seen," it would not be a problem to show us a 150-vehicle convoy. It would a great evidence.

There has been plenty of evidence of Russian military equipment crossing the border in support of the rebels. The Russians had become quite sloppy about it (in the sense of not really trying to do it covertly) in the run-up to Thursday's crash.

They became more sloppy as the volumes of weapons, equipment, and men crossing the border increased.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 40):
In the meantime, who is this Carlos

Someone on the FSB's paylist?

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 48):
I wonder what you think of your decent and honest compatriots.

They are criminals. It is strictly forbidden to express your personal opinion in Putin's Russia.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 57):
It's a completely different subject.

It is the subject. The conflict in Eastern Ukraine is Putin's war. Without Putin, things would never have degenerated into an armed conflict of this scale.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
Such things require a million of signatures from various state authorities and approvals of other authorities, etc.

Not when the order comes from the top.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
What's the reason to supply them BUK? They don't need this kind of missiles.

Because the rebels were losing their unpopular war, in part thanks to the successful actions of the Ukrainian Air Force.
 
2175301
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 85):

Putin was told immediately to allow such access immediately after the shoot down for exactly the reasons you outline. He did not do anything obvious to allow or create such access.

Your post is important - but; Putin already implemented a different strategy; which I am in agreement with you is likely subject to trial under the Geneva Conventions if formal charges are allowed to be presented.

Unfortunately; Russia holds veto power over the UN Security council; thus there will be no "neutral" UN forces. Otherwise - they could have already been there.


Have a great day,
 
dvautier
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:28 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:42 pm

My understanding is that BUK missiles have an explosive charge warhead surrounded by thousands of small fragments of metal. The missile does not have to directly hit a target but uses a proximity device and when it explodes it sends these fragments flying in all directions at extremely high speed. The video I saw showed what looked like a 777 descending rapidly with its port engine afire. I don’t know if this was the actual MH17 but it was not destroyed in the air. Anyway since there are large chunks of debris lying around, the plane must not have augured into terrain but rather struck the ground at an angle and then broke up. From observing the photos I see no small peppering of fragments. So was it really a BUK? It should be easy to find out.
 
Scipio
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:00 am

More pictures from the crash site

WARNING:

- bodies and body parts shown
- dead animals shown
- personal items shown (including a letter and a page from a diary, in Dutch)

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/eve...to-y-vydeo-s-mesta-padenyia-boynha
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:03 am

Quoting dvautier (Reply 89):
Anyway since there are large chunks of debris lying around, the plane must not have augured into terrain but rather struck the ground at an angle and then broke up

The debris pictures show that the aircraft pressure hull was penetrated and the aircraft physically broke apart in the air. An aircraft hit by a missile might sustain damage in such a manner as to cause major parts of the wings, and aircraft skin to come off in huge pieces. Also photos showing bodies show many rows of seats were pulled out of the aircraft in the air at near cruise altitude.

The engines, and apparently the wing spar and part of the fuselage and at least one fuel tank fell as one piece and had a ground fire. Many bodies are shown in debris with no evidence of fire.

But an aircraft might also fly for a long time after being hit by a missile.

KAL 007 returned to altitude and course about 1 min 30 seconds after being hit by debris from the two missile warheads. The aircraft appears to have been under the pilots control for another four minutes and then started a descending spiral, only crashing about 12 minutes after the missile attack.

The second missile fractured the pressure hull and initiated an explosive decompression. Analysis determined the hole in the hull was approx. 1.75 square feet. The co-pilot was conscious and talking to ATC at least 1 1/2 minutes after the impact, though analysis says that he was likely using the full face oxygen mask.

The FDR and CVR were released to South Korea in 1992. There was no data on the FDR and no recoverable data on the CVR. Russia did also release data copies of the FDR and CVR data at that time in 1992. The FDR and CVR recordings end 1 minute 44 seconds after the missile impact and miss most of the 12 minute post impact flight. That might be because of damage to wiring in the rear of the aircraft from the missile warhead projectiles.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Chamonix
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:31 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:09 am

Outflanked!
SU-27 invitation cancelled for Swiss airshow:
http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/pilote...ses-bienvenus-air14/story/17617835
 
alfa164
Posts: 3773
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 85):
We are three days now into the agony of the victims' families, and into the geopolitical ramifications. I believe that absent immediate, full access to the crash site, a fully badged and armed United Nations team, composed of members per the current proper organization chart of the UN, and purposely ABSENT any adjustment for the current warfare in Ukraine and absent any adjustment for the feelings of Ukraine or Russia, the parties of the the current hot, unadmitted war in the Ukraine, would be eminently dispatchable, immediately, under a white flag of truce, to secure the site before another night has fallen on the likely remaining remains of loved ones still lying under the skies of their killing fields. Said team backed up by lethal force, and clear intentions transmitted beforehand.

        

I cannot disagree. In fact, I have been musing about the possibility of the Dutch military - at the invitation of Ukraine - announcing to Russia and the world that they were sending troops to secure the site, on the grounds that their nationals were the vast majority of the victims, and that the rights of those victims and their families were being trampled by the insurgents who currently seem to have the upper hand in the area. If such an announcement were to be made - and with the expected backing of fellow NATO members - I am wondering if those thugs would attempt to resist such a move, or would slip away into the night. At this point, I doubt Putin would support any conflict, and would realize that any move to prevent the Dutch from coming (perhaps accompanied by a Malaysian contingent, for obvious reasons) would isolate him even further.

It is just a musing, but if all the parties - the Ukrainians, whose land it is; the Dutch, who have every right to have access to their lost souls; and the Malaysians, who face a similar situation, and who ultimately will face questions about the flight itself - were determined to face down the insurgents and bring some sort of credible investigation to the site, it would be an interesting move.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
AT
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:15 am

Isn't it a crime to tamper with or remove a flight recorder or cockpit voice recorder from an accident scene under international law?

I'm sure that others are more in the know but regardless of where/by whom/whose territory the black boxes were found in, there is a moral and legal obligation to turn them in to the investigating authorities.
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:25 am

This might be graphic. Skip ahead if you don't want to read.

Looking at some of the pictures of the bodies, a lot have had their loose clothes removed, such as shirts and pants, while their bras and underwear are still present. Additionally, it looks like some of the bodies had what looks like frostbite. This suggests to me that these bodies were ejected at altitude, and lost their clothing as it was ripped off of them by the wind. My only hope is that the dead were not conscious. What a terrible way to go.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting dvautier (Reply 89):
I don’t know if this was the actual MH17 but it was not destroyed in the air. Anyway since there are large chunks of debris lying around, the plane must not have augured into terrain but rather struck the ground at an angle and then broke up. From observing the photos I see no small peppering of fragments. So was it really a BUK? It should be easy to find out.

The plane broke up at altitude. Otherwise there would not be pieces strewn in a 15 km radius. Fortunately, the forces involved in such breakup means people died probably instantly.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 93):
I cannot disagree. In fact, I have been musing about the possibility of the Dutch military - at the invitation of Ukraine - announcing to Russia and the world that they were sending troops to secure the site

That would be an invasion.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 93):
At this point, I doubt Putin would support any conflict, and would realize that any move to prevent the Dutch from coming (perhaps accompanied by a Malaysian contingent, for obvious reasons) would isolate him even further.

Putin would take that as a direct threat to his power. And he would also use it to score points with all Russians, many of whom are probably now questioning his leadership. Any military force dropped on the zone will mean war.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 90):
More pictures from the crash site

WARNING:

- bodies and body parts shown
- dead animals shown
- personal items shown (including a letter and a page from a diary, in Dutch)

Made me angry... Why to publish stuff like that? Personal letters, diary pages??

And yes, according to the MH cargo manifest MH17 carried live birds and couple of dogs.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3773
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 96):
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 93):I cannot disagree. In fact, I have been musing about the possibility of the Dutch military - at the invitation of Ukraine - announcing to Russia and the world that they were sending troops to secure the site
That would be an invasion.

It would not be an invasion if they were invited by the Ukrainians; this is, despite the current "occupation" by Russian-backed thugs, Ukrainian territory. No one is coming in with guns blazing, in an attempt to fight an all-out war; they would come in to safely secure a crime scene, in which their citizens were victims.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 96):
Putin would take that as a direct threat to his power. And he would also use it to score points with all Russians, many of whom are probably now questioning his leadership. Any military force dropped on the zone will mean war.

I wish I were as knowledgeable about Putin's thinking as you are. So far, he has claimed he has "no hand" in the insurgency; why would he now expose himself as the puppeteer of all the chaos in Eastern Ukraine?

In truth, Putin has to balance his "popularity" in Russia against the possibility of his - and his country's - isolation from the rest of the world. This is becoming a fight he cannot win, and he is - presumably - smart enough to know when he needs to accept the best way out of a bad situation.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 98):
In truth, Putin has to balance his "popularity" in Russia against the possibility of his - and his country's - isolation from the rest of the world. This is becoming a fight he cannot win, and he is - presumably - smart enough to know when he needs to accept the best way out of a bad situation.

It will be just some sabre rattling for some time and things will settle down. It wasn't a delibrate act, and the US did something similar and emerged out of it unscathed, I doubt if any US navy personnel were even punished. This was an unfortunate series of events.

It will depend on how the western powers react. If they try to use this as an excuse to interfere forcefully in Ukraine, it may backfire and lead to more undesirable developments from both Russia and Ukraine. If handled in a mature fashion, it can possibly lead to an end to bloodshed and more lasting peace.

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