AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 98):
I wish I were as knowledgeable about Putin's thinking as you are.

Thank you, you just need to read good press, and watch the news, other than Fox and CNN.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 98):
In truth, Putin has to balance his "popularity" in Russia against the possibility of his - and his country's - isolation from the rest of the world. This is becoming a fight he cannot win, and he is - presumably - smart enough to know when he needs to accept the best way out of a bad situation.

As things are, sure. Send a foreign military force without his consent to any part of Russia, or what he considers his geopolitical sphere of influence, and you´ll give him the perfect excuse to get out of a bad situation, with a war.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 100):
Thank you, you just need to read good press, and watch the news, other than Fox

That is the ultimate insult. I would never consider looking at Faux News.

So...what are your sources for a look into Putin's mind? RT television? Pravda?

[Edited 2014-07-20 19:11:54]
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Mir
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:23 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 46):
Even the Spanish Embassy in Kyiv denied their existence, and the ATC association in Spain knew nothing about a Spanish ATC working in UA

If there's a Spanish air traffic controller working anywhere besides Spain, he's a fool - their pay and working conditions are out of this world. So it makes sense that he wouldn't exist.

Quoting d l x (Reply 95):
My only hope is that the dead were not conscious. What a terrible way to go.

They probably were unconscious for most of the way down. But, unfortunately, I don't think it was instantaneous. FL330 is not that high, relatively speaking, and they probably had about 5-10 seconds where they knew what was going on. That's a pretty long time if you count it out. A terrible way to go indeed.  

-Mir
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AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 102):
They probably were unconscious for most of the way down. But, unfortunately, I don't think it was instantaneous. FL330 is not that high, relatively speaking, and they probably had about 5-10 seconds where they knew what was going on. That's a pretty long time if you count it out. A terrible way to go indeed.

I read that most people on TWA 800 faced and upwards and lateral instantaneous acceleration at the same time, with double digit G forces. With the consequent fatal injuries. You can imagine which ones those were, but almost all had the same type of fatal injury. I would think something similar must have happened here. So probably they didn´t have even 5 to 10 seconds of realization.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting AT (Reply 94):
Isn't it a crime to tamper with or remove a flight recorder or cockpit voice recorder from an accident scene under international law?

I don't know if it is a crime in any nation anywhere in the world. Certainly it is not a criminal offense under any recognized international law. There may be civil penalties for interfering with an official investigation, but I doubt there are any criminal penalties.

The preservation of crash scenes and handling of FDR/CVR are recommendations of ICAO. The strongest penalty would be sanctions against the aviation authority of the nation controlling the aircraft crash scene.

ICAO works based on cooperation. It doesn't have the power of enforcement.

There are several crashes each year where the local nation refuses to follow ICAO recommendations on crash investigation procedure, preserving evidence and releasing reports. Many of these are smaller regional type aircraft that crash in nations with very small aviation authorities and no real crash investigation expertise.

Some people would consider the investigation into PanAm 103, TWA 800, JAL 123, and many other as non-ICAO compliant investigations.
 
Mir
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 103):
I would think something similar must have happened here.

I'm not so sure. TWA was an inflight explosion, whereas this seems to have been an inflight breakup without explosion (at least on the part of the aircraft - obviously the missile warhead exploded).

-Mir
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 35):
What's the chance that what they think they have in their possession is a black box is actually some avionics equipment or other, because it's black?

Wouldn't surprise me given the goon-like behavior of the rebels... Calling an orange box a black box might have been a good idea  
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 44):
Primary radar returns might show the missile track.

Even if they did some higher ups could still just come and and say it's not a missile track but rather just an error or something else - like with the TWA800 radar images  
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LovesCoffee
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 80):
The Wikipedia article is a highly political and doesn't tell the whole truth from either the US or Iranian view.

Not disagreeing, but how do you know this? Any way I could see some info/do some reading to support this?
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trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:24 am

The best article I have ever seen on the Vincennes incident was in a Proceedings of the US Naval Institute maybe 10 years or so ago, maybe less. Not sure if those are accessible at their site. Your local public library probably has it.

OT. they also have the best article I've seen on the Liberty sinking.

USNI is great as they have people sending them articles who know what they are talking about as they are usually experts in some field, and are usually retired so they got nothing to lose saying the truth.
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:49 am

According to our press, the 'pro-Russian rebels' appear to have agreed to hand over the recovered possible 'black boxes' to international investigators. Let's hope they keep their word (and don't delete everything on them first):-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ee-hand-MH17-black-boxes-over.html

And Australia is sending (retired Air Chief Marshal) Angus Houston to take part in the investigation, on behalf of the relatives of the 40-odd Australian residents who were on MH17. He's a 'pretty good bloke' by all accounts - and he certainly knows one end of an aeroplane from the other   - but he has up till now been running the (so far unsuccessful) MH370 investigation:-

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...stice/story-fnizu68q-1226995395024
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 108):

OT. they also have the best article I've seen on the Liberty sinking.

USNI is great as they have people sending them articles who know what they are talking about as they are usually experts in some field, and are usually retired so they got nothing to lose saying the truth.

I don't know what you've read at that "institute" but a visit to their site reveals that they are currently pimping the most outrageous coverup of the attack on the Liberty so far "The Liberty incident revealed" by J Cristol. The author is little more than a shill for the Israeli defense forces who attacked the Liberty and killed 34 US sailors.

http://www.usni.org/store/books/cold-war/liberty-incident-revealed-0

The truth about that incident is found on the site maintained by the crew-members of that ship.
http://www.gtr5.com/

Reading the Cristol book is about like reading Putin's version on what happened to MH-17.
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 110):

I don't know what you've read at that "institute" but a visit to their site reveals that they are currently pimping the most outrageous coverup of the attack on the Liberty so far "The Liberty incident revealed" by J Cristol. The author is little more than a shill for the Israeli defense forces who attacked the Liberty and killed 34 US sailors.

I didn't know about his latest book. The articles I refer to are about his first book and the subsequent responses by others which are far more interesting than his book. The responses laid out the rationale of why the Israelis attacked in the barbaric manner they did. USNI provides a forum for these contentious issues and as I said it attracts people who often were in the chain of command or party to various aspects of these events who would never be caught talking publicly about it in any other forum.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:06 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 109):
And Australia is sending (retired Air Chief Marshal) Angus Houston to take part in the investigation

There are plenty of other people that could be sent. He needs to focus on finding the other MH 777...
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:28 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 114):
There are plenty of other people that could be sent. He needs to focus on finding the other MH 777...

My thoughts as well. Shouldn't he be focusing on finding the other MH 777?

And, what can he do in Ukraine anyway? Sure there were 36 Australian residents on that plane, it hurts (every lost soul of course hurts, but it especially hurts when two of the lost souls were a couple from my small neighbourhood), but what can he do?
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 114):
He needs to focus on finding the other MH 777
Quoting aryonoco (Reply 115):
My thoughts as well.

I appreciate how you both feel, guys - but Australia is pretty short of experienced airmen who have flown the 'big stuff,' and are already good 'committee men'?

The MH370 hunt has pretty well 'hit the buffers' for the next couple of months - the 'head investigators' have nothing much to do for a while? Other than organising yet another search, even further south? I for one am already on record as saying that I think AF370 probably crashed far to the north of where the search has already been concentrated, so the odds are against them finding anything even when the further search IS organised?

It therefore makes a lot of sense, on the face of it, to keep a genuine expert on 'active duty' - investigating a more recent accident where there is a lot more 'hard evidence' available to analyse, and hopefully reach a quick conclusion?

[Edited 2014-07-21 00:01:50]
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 116):
Australia is pretty short of experienced airmen who have flown the 'big stuff.'

The 'big stuff' - that made me laugh! He needs to get back to finding MH370 they way he went on in the media. This is just to shift the attention off of his failed MH370 mission... Let me tell you, MH370 is the big stuff - it is still missing!!! If he wants to add some more 'big stuff' to his CV then he had better focus on MH370...
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bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:04 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 101):
On the other hand, the opposite case is possible - that they [the Ukranians] knew exactly what plane it was, and the likely makeup of its crew and passengers. The destroyed plane was not SU, SQ or AI. There were no Russian passengers, and only one American (dual Dutch citizen). This is not a conspiracy theory - just pointing out that the actual plane and its occupants - and their respective governments - were not so likely to solicit an effective response - not significantly from the USA; and above all, not Russian. The shooters could have been reckless / ignorant or they could also been highly focused, well-trained, informed, and clever....and the downing of MH7 was a not mistake at all.

Exactly.

The US western media and US have ample opportunity to point the finger at the separatists, so I have developed an alternative narrative that presents the opposite view.

Alternative Narrative Explaining why Ukranians may have Shot Down MH17
The Ukranians could have gradually developed this plan over a few months. Firstly, the Ukranians fly some of their own A/C over the conflict zone, drawing fire, getting shot down at higher and higher altitudes. Why are they doing this when they know there are ManPads and possibly Buk's in the area? There is no reason except to study the reactions, and to establish a pattern. This is the core of the Ukranian gambit, they lose some A/C for a greater gain. And yet, all this time the Ukranians leave their airspace open so that hundreds of civilian airliners and tens of thousands of passengers are flying over an extremely dangerous war zone where an accidental shoot down is possible, even likely. However, the US & UK airlines are not exposed to this risk because the US government issued a special "strong warning" to US and UK airlines not to fly over the war zone. The US government does not pass this "strong warning" on to their Europeans or anyone else. But the separatists don't oblige, they do not shoot down a civilian airline, and so the Ukranians decide they need to do it themselves. US advisors on the ground in Ukraine know about the plan and give it a green light on the condition, that no US citizens are killed. To meet this requirement, the US provides information to the Ukranians regarding the distribution of citizenships on A/C passing over Ukraine. After detailed planning, a Ukranian Buk is positioned in the contested area. Then the Ukranians select a suitable A/C that will minimize US & Russian citizens killed. The plan could backfire if Russian citizens are killed, because then Russian could play the victim card, and there would be no advantage to Ukraine. Unfortunately for this plan, there is a mistake, and among all the passengers there is one dual Dutch/US citizen (likely) traveling on his Dutch passport. The choice of MH17 has people looking for a connection with MH370, where there is none, but it leaves the media hungry for details.

A plan like this would be a big risk, but the return could be winning a previously unwinnable war. With the western media behind them, the Ukranians just might pull it off. The Russians on the other have been caught completely by surprise, this is not something they could have anticipated.

However the Ukranians were not caught by surprise at all, in fact they seemed supremely efficient in feeding a media what they wanted. The media have eaten up the taped calls, apparently between one of the separatists and a controller. I don't know about the veracity of this call but there are couple of things to say about it. If indeed it is real, I can see why a commander in the field might jump the gun and claim responsibility, trying to claim credit for any perceived victory. As far as the separatists knew they were the only ones likely to be shooting down A/C in that area. They would not be anticipating the Ukranians shooting down an A/C, even less so an airliner. The thing is, even if the taped call and social media evidence is real, it does not mean the separatists actually shot down MH17. Actually, it is clear from the tape that they were surprised and shocked when it turned out to be a civilian airliner. It is also obviously not in their interests to shoot down an airliner. To operate a Buk requires some technical chops, anyone expert enough to operate it properly is unlikely to make that mistake. Even so, if Ukranian military A/C were shadowing civilian airliners it is possible the separatist fired on a Ukranian military A/C but the missile lost that target and chose a secondary target MH 17.

Summary of Reasons why the Ukranians May Have Shot Down MH17.
1. After the Ukrainian coup the new government have found themselves in a desperate situation. Desperate situations call for desperate measures.
2. The Ukranian plan grows naturally out of the circumstances they faced. i.e. Unable to make full use of their air power, but with airlines transiting the conflict area every day.
3. The unnecessary flight path of Ukranian military A/C into the conflict area where they could be, and were shot down, to establish a pattern and study the results. (The gambit lose some small pieces for a larger gain.)
4. Ukraine who are responsible for determining the risks did not close the airspace but kept it open even after their own A/C were shot down at 20,000 feet. At the same time Ukraine now "claim" knowledge that the separatists had Buks.
4. The "strong warning" from the US government to US and UK airlines shows the US were well aware that there was a risk of an airline being shot down.
5. The US did not pass this information on to their European "friends" or indeed any other airline, thus exposing tens of thousands of passengers from Europe Asia and indeed the US, to the danger of being shot down.
6. The distribution of passenger citizenships on MH17 is unusual. Of the hundreds of A/C that traveled that dangerous route how many would have shown ZERO "documented" US citizens (it is a good assumption that the dual Dutch/US citizen was traveling using his Dutch passport.) How many would also have ZERO Russians. Was this how MH17 was SELECTED?

This entire incident is sickening tragedy, and I give my condolences to all those families who lost loved ones on MH17. I regret if my somewhat clinical discussion of this event has upset anyone. However, learning from this involves getting to the facts, and developing alternative narratives and lines of investigation while trying to remain impartial.

For the record, I am not pro/anti any of the countries involved. I just stated a list of facts and draw some alternative conclusions. By all means agree or disagree, and discuss why. Finally, I simply noted the unusually low number of US citizens on MH17, which seemed a bit odd, and asked some questions about what this might mean. As it turns out there were also no Russians.

It is now really up the Europeans, to investigate. For example finding out who had access to the pax manifests for all A/C transiting this region. That means checking system logs, etc. Then investigate the detail of surrounding the special "strong warning" from the US given only to US & UK airlines. It might be worth investigating the locations of Ukranian Buks, and trying to interview as many of their operators as possible. This includes investigating the veracity and details of reports that a Ukranian Buk was taken by separatists. Although an investigation on the ground might at least be able to determine whether it was in fact a missile (likely) that brought down the A/C. The reality is that, despite the US playing on peoples emotions about how the crash site has been disturbed, this is not an ordinary plane crash where a detailed investigation is carried out in order to determine a complicated mechanical cause, and take actions to prevent the same thing happening again.

[Edited 2014-07-21 00:40:16]
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:08 am

With respect, 77jet, I meant big aeroplanes, not big accidents.  

Nothing is going to happen about AF370 for the next few months. The ships need maintenance and the crews need rest. Plus, another huge area, even further south, requires survey etc.? All that with NO 'hard evidence' available to work on?

I fear myself that the MH370 case will never be solved? There is simply NO hard evidence to work on?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:58 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 119):
With respect, 77jet, I meant big aeroplanes, not big accidents.

With respect, Nav30, I know you used the term 'big stuff' to refer to big 'aeroplanes' but that was in Angus' past - now Angus needs to focus on the 'big stuff' such as the MH370 incident...

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 116):
AF370
Quoting NAV30 (Reply 119):
AF370

Never heard of this accident. I have head of MH370 and AF447 - the big stuff!

BTW my view on MH370 is that now there is MH 777 wreckage in the Ukraine - just enough of which some could have been seized by unpleasant types - Australia should no longer fund any MH370 recovery as there is no proof that the plane ever crashed or is even in Australia's search and rescue zone. It would be too easy now for select pieces of wreckage from MH17 to be placed in the sea where ever 'they' want MH370 to be found and that still won't prove that MH17 and MH370 are different frames. So, I shall take back what I said about Angus - he should not go back to focusing on MH370. He should retire from public life. He has served his country. There is something very dodgy with MH370 and Australia should wipe its hands of any involvement until there is concrete evidence (not Inmarsat data) that the plane is somewhere in the Australian SAR zone. Meanwhile, a team of professionals minus Angus should help with MH17.
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YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:29 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 118):
The Ukranians could have gradually developed this plan over a few months.

What you are suggesting is plausible, broadly speaking; however, the planning for it would only be days, at most a few weeks. The wouldn't know months ahead what the situation will be like on the day.

That brings up the question again, too, whether this may have been a case of mistaken identity.
There has been no denial or confirmation here on a.net that Putin's plane and MH-17 have crossed paths over Poland somewhere, less than 40 minutes apart.
It doesn't take Einstein to work out what might have been the real mission.

And what about communication transcripts?
With MH-370 they were so absolutely important but for this incident nobody seems to be the least interested..!

What were the pilots last radio calls?
What did they say?
Would they shed light on the issue?
When exactly did they stop communicating?
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:39 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 122):
That brings up the question again, too, whether this may have been a case of mistaken identity.
There has been no denial or confirmation here on a.net that Putin's plane and MH-17 have crossed paths over Poland somewhere, less than 40 minutes apart.
It doesn't take Einstein to work out what might have been the real mission.

The Ukrainians had a plan to shoot down Putin's plane, they somehow tracked Putin's plane (but not using Flightradar24, as it didn't swap the planes) and Ukrainians mistakenly thought that Putin was flying over Ukraine instead of to Moscow??? It really doesn't make any sense to me. Could you spell out the real mission in this scenario, as it not obvious to me?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:45 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 122):
What did they say?

I am guessing the last line could be something like: 'Malaysian one seven, maintaining level three three zero.'

I really doubt it, but if they were looking out of the cockpit windows, the CVR might have a comment like: 'WTF! A missile! They thought we were Putin!"

But to answer your question, the communication transcripts are probably not as vital as in the MH370 case as the plane is not missing and there seems to be a lot of evidence (well, what is left of it at least). With MH370 they basically had nothing so the every little thing they have will be over analyzed...
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oly720man
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:58 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 118):


So if it was the Ukrainians, why aren't the Russians and Russian backed rebels bending over backwards to let the world in to investigate the crash site see what those horrible Ukrainians did? Why are the observers being held back by the Russian backed rebels if it was the Ukrainians who did it?
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slinky09
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:00 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 118):
1. After the Ukrainian coup the new government have found themselves in a desperate situation. Desperate situations call for desperate measures.

There alone you discredit your hypothesis in one go. IIRC the Ukrainian government was elected, after a period of civil unrest against the previous president who was widely discredited, thieved on a massive scale from his country's resources (upto $18 bn a year mentioned in reports), and cosied upto Moscow when his people wanted better relations with the west.

So, no coup, rather democracy in action.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:01 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 122):
That brings up the question again, too, whether this may have been a case of mistaken identity.

Yes, it's a case of mistaken identity. Pro Russkies thought they were shooting down an Ukrainian government aircraft.
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D L X
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:10 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 118):

That's quite a conspiracy theory. The major problems with it are that
1) MH17 would not have been in that airspace had it not been for the thunderstorm they had to go around.
2) The people on the recording bragging about downing a jet before they realized it was a passenger plane are speaking Russian. Ukrainians speak Ukrainian. The separatists speak Russian.

It wasn't the Ukraine.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:16 am

Hm... The Ukrainian Army has launched a large-scale operation to take Donetsk.
It is not a good time, really. As fighting is going very close to the Railway Station where MH17 bodies are kept in three refrigerator carriages.
That's odd. The Ukrainians could wait until the bodies are taken out of the war zone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sis-airplane-idUSKBN0FQ0K420140721

So does the UA "democracy in action" government try to make the crash site completely inaccessible?

The further - the weirder.....
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aw70
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:37 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 129):
That's odd. The Ukrainians could wait until the bodies are taken out of the war zone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sis-airplane-idUSKBN0FQ0K420140721

So does the UA "democracy in action" government try to make the crash site completely inaccessible?

That is *very* worrying news indeed, as the only comprehensible reason for doing anything of the sort would be to hide and eradicate proof that the Ukrainian forces were indeed behind the shoot down.

Given that such a scenario would likely implicate the U.S. and a lot of the main Western Powers as more or less distant associates in what can only be termed mass murder (the current government in Kiev does nothing without U.S. approval), I sincerely hope that I am wrong in this assessment. But as you said - if there is nothing to hide on the part of the Ukrainians, there is no reason to try and take military control of the area right now at this very instant. Especially as the crash site will likely at least be partially devastated if fighting occurs in the area. To say nothing of the remains of the passengers, which might be destroyed as well if fighting reaches that train station.

The only sane course of action for a blameless Ukrainian government would be to bring as much international pressure as needed on the separatists resp. Russia to get international investigators access to the crash site. Which would work, if a suitably diplomatic approach were used.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:50 am

Quoting d l x (Reply 128):
1) MH17 would not have been in that airspace had it not been for the thunderstorm they had to go around.

I wonder how far in advance the diversion / route around the storm was known? If they were asked to change route and go around the storm into the flight I wonder if the thought of flying farther into the Ukraine was discussed between the pilots or entered the pilots minds? I just wonder if the CVR is recovered in working order if there might be evidence of any concern about the route... That the storm forced them off of the usual track is a bit unlucky IMO...
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:51 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 129):
As fighting is going very close to the Railway Station where MH17 bodies are kept in three refrigerator carriages.

Although the distance of 70 km / 45 miles from Donetsk city center to Torez railway station might be termed as "very close" in Russian terms, it should be enough to preserve the carriages.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:56 am

In meantime the separatists use heavy equipment to move the wreckage (possibly to retrieve any parts of the warhead, which would allow for identification).


(From the BBC website)

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:57 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 129):
The Ukrainians could wait until the bodies are taken out of the war zone.

It's not the Ukrainian army who's blocking that train...
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:13 am

Aha...they started another round of fighting in order to un-block the train. Sure.
The train will be stuck in Torez.
Ukrainian president promised to stop military operation 40 km from the crash site, though.
It is a complete mess.

I was glad that Russian and Dutch agreed that ICAO must be the investigation body in this case.

[Edited 2014-07-21 03:32:06]
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 am

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 126):
There alone you discredit your hypothesis in one go. IIRC the Ukrainian government was elected, after a period of civil unrest against the previous president who was widely discredited, thieved on a massive scale from his country's resources (upto $18 bn a year mentioned in reports), and cosied upto Moscow when his people wanted better relations with the west.

Putin and Russia was doing what the old USSR under Starlin, and the rest of the Comminest leaders after him did, put in Moscow puppet Governments in power through out Eastern Europe and when the masses protested the USSR sent in the troops in. Today in 2014 a Russian back Government was forced out of power and the Ukraine, they went to elections and voted a pro Western President in Putin didnt like this and the troops were sent to the Ukraine, only this is 2014 and there is no more Walsaw Pacted countrys anymore,and you cant just march your armys into a county like they did in Hungry and Prague, so mass your army at the boarder and support the sepreratests with in the Ukraine, only Putin was not expecting this to happen now they are doing every thing to deni they had anything to do with it and use the old 1970s properganda machine to blame the other person. They are pro Russian and Putin is supporting them by doing nothing. What makes me even more angry and sad is the fact that investergaters cant get in to inspect the sight or if they are they are being delibraitly f**ked around, while familys are greving for their lost loved ones lying in a field or in a make shift morge at a train station, they want them brought home to be laied to rest. Putin buy his very actions of doing nothing, sending the troops down to that part of the country in the first place, has blood on his hands I hope the West starts putting the blow tourch onto him to get of his arse and do some thing. Maybe placing more sanctions on Russia like banning all Aeroflot flights like they did with JAT in the 90s.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 103):
I would think something similar must have happened here.

Exactly, for TWA it was also contributing to the end of the entire airline. For a nation it makes a big difference to admit if a mistake was made and their own citizens where shot or some foreigners far away.
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JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:41 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):
Aha...they started another round of fighting in order to un-block the train. Sure.

Who said this? I know I didn't.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:14 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):

Russia didn't have any jurisdiction in any way. The accident didn't happen in Russia, to a Russian plane, a Russian airline and there were no Russian on board.

The only reason they are involved is because their boys wouldn't let the site be investigated...and used guns to keep it that way. Now, the site is being sterilized to totally contaminate any further investigation.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 127):

Tin foil hat.....ON.
What the...?
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:29 am

Quoting aw70 (Reply 127):
That is *very* worrying news indeed, as the only comprehensible reason for doing anything of the sort would be to hide and eradicate proof that the Ukrainian forces were indeed behind the shoot down.

I can't agree. Ukraine see a chink of weakness and disarray amongst the pro-Russian separatist terrorists and are therefore seizing the opportunity to strike.

Still, it won't prevent people from twisting it into a pro-Putin propaganda piece and claiming the USA isa behind it all...

If there was any possibility of MH17 being shot down by Ukraine, you can bet your last cent that Russia and the separatists would be all over TV saying so and ensuring the crash sites were completely protected so that any proof and evidence were all preserved; it hasn't happened.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
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Dan23
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:37 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130

They also moved the tail section. Apparently claiming they were looking for more bodies.

This situation is disgraceful and is currently only getting worse.
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:50 am

Not sure if this article has been linked already, but I just came across it. Yet another theory for now though.

Quote:
According to an authoritative source, two Su-27 Flankers escorted the Malaysian Boeing 777 minutes before it was hit by one or more missiles.
http://www.businessinsider.com/sourc...krainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
 
BSLFRA
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:00 pm

1. What are the traffic shares of MH in KUL. What are the top 3 airlines?

2. http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/

Page 2 of MH17: 298 Total pax incl. 15 crew

Page 5 of MH17: Quote: "The B777-200 uses the Rolls-Royce Trent-800 engine and has a 282 seat capacity."

So 298 pax - 15 crew = 283

Question: How can 283 pax be on board with just 282 seats?
 
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AlexA340B777
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):

might be cause some smaller infants not necessarily need a seat...
6 continents, 85 countries, 744 flights, 90 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
SCQ83
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):
Question: How can 283 pax be on board with just 282 seats?

Babies are also pax.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):
Question: How can 283 pax be on board with just 282 seats?

Babies (3).
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:09 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130):
In meantime the separatists use heavy equipment to move the wreckage (possibly to retrieve any parts of the warhead, which would allow for identification).

This is a horrid situation and the lack of clear information only makes it worse. With all due respect, I can't see any of the people in that picture knowing what a warhead fragment would look like in the middle of a pile of twisted wreckage. I know I wouldn't.

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 138):
Apparently claiming they were looking for more bodies.

This situation is disgraceful and is currently only getting worse.

Less so if they really were looking for bodies. All we have are pictures and one person's interpretation of those pictures. See above.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 95):
it looks like some of the bodies had what looks like frostbite

A body without blood circulation will look weird. It can readily look like frostbite to a layman. Under normal circumstances, some 5 to 10 minutes after the hearts stops beating you will see the skin becoming pale, while gravity leads blood to the lowest body parts (which then turns reddish and later blue-ish).

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 138):
They also moved the tail section. Apparently claiming they were looking for more bodies.

This situation is disgraceful and is currently only getting worse.

Yes. Without any doubt the Russians have capable accident investigators. But... a) are they there? b) Couldn't they wait until Ukrainian/Dutch/Malaysian investigators have arrived?

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 137):
If there was any possibility of MH17 being shot down by Ukraine, you can bet your last cent that Russia and the separatists would be all over TV saying so and ensuring the crash sites were completely protected so that any proof and evidence were all preserved; it hasn't happened.

Let's wait and see, maybe Russia did not have the time to prepare for this and will reveal certain information in due course ?

What is shocking is that the Ukraine government is holding back investigators and the pro-russian people in the crash area are left alone with the dead bodies and the crash site. All the journalists from the world incl. BBC are already at site and those investigators are waiting for what ? That the Ukrainian government can claim that things can't be investigated ? That drunk pro russians are sorting the mess out ? I'm not surprised that some of the people there getting totally drunk to work in this scene.

This is such a scandal for the poor people and children who died in this crash.
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TreeHillRavens
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:46 pm

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):
1. What are the traffic shares of MH in KUL. What are the top 3 airlines?

Total international traffic share of MAS at KLIA in 2013 was 32%, in the second spot was Air Asia Group at 39% and Emirates was placed at third with an international traffic share of 2.7%.

Total domestic traffic share of MAS at KLIA in 2013 was 40% and 56% for Air Asia.

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):
Page 2 of MH17: 298 Total pax incl. 15 crew

So 298 pax - 15 crew = 283

Question: How can 283 pax be on board with just 282 seats?

280 passengers (280 seats) + 3 babies

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 140):

Page 5 of MH17: Quote: "The B777-200 uses the Rolls-Royce Trent-800 engine and has a 282 seat capacity."

Actually, only 280 seats were available for reservation on MH17. The other 2 seats were reserved for relief pilots. Captain Eugene Choo Jin Leong and F/O Muhamad Firdaus bin Abdul Rahim were the two relief pilots on MH17 on 17th July 2014 and their seats were 5J and 5K.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 126):
As fighting is going very close to the Railway Station where MH17 bodies are kept in three refrigerator carriages.

The railway cars with the bodies are in Torez, not in Donetsk. There is 60 km in between...
There is no fighting going on in or near Torez or near the crash site at the moment.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 127):
the current government in Kiev does nothing without U.S. approval

Give me a break. Where do you get that from? Putin TV?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):
It is a complete mess.

...created by the Kremlin.

There would have been no bodies if there had not been the Russian-supplied Buk.
Thousands of people have died in this needless war created by the Kremlin.
 
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anfromme
Posts: 883
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 146):
What is shocking is that the Ukraine government is holding back investigators and the pro-russian people in the crash area are left alone with the dead bodies and the crash site

Uhm - I think you got it the wrong way round here.
The area is controlled by separatists, and it is these separatists that were blocking international observers from the crash site - and when they did allow access, it was for very limited times and under constant watch of armed separatists. This is quite well-documented by the media and the OSCE, e.g. http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121431
Hardly an environment condusive for a throrough, independent investigation; to say nothing of the less than professional conditions under which the wreckage and FRDs have been left and/or salvaged.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 137):
If there was any possibility of MH17 being shot down by Ukraine, you can bet your last cent that Russia and the separatists would be all over TV saying so and ensuring the crash sites were completely protected so that any proof and evidence were all preserved; it hasn't happened.

  

[Edited 2014-07-21 06:21:06]
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