2175301
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 146):
What is shocking is that the Ukraine government is holding back investigators and the pro-russian people in the crash area are left alone with the dead bodies and the crash site. All the journalists from the world incl. BBC are already at site and those investigators are waiting for what ? That the Ukrainian government can claim that things can't be investigated ? That drunk pro russians are sorting the mess out ? I'm not surprised that some of the people there getting totally drunk to work in this scene.

This is such a scandal for the poor people and children who died in this crash.

The Ukraine government does not control this area of the country - the "Russian Separatist" do. It is the Russian Separatist who have prevented the international folks from gaining timely access - and also controlled what limited access that has been granted. The Russian Separatists have been largely armed and supported by Russia (which includes supplying tanks). This has been well documented by the Russian Separatists themselves.

Where did you get your information that it is Ukraine who is preventing access? There are plenty of different international reporters and observers reporting that this area is held and controlled by the Russian Separatist. Note that many of these reporters were already in the area to cover the conflict.

Have a great day,
 
CBRboy
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130):
In meantime the separatists use heavy equipment to move the wreckage (possibly to retrieve any parts of the warhead, which would allow for identification).

Not everything is what it seems in relation to this incident. And not everything is as the media headlines make out. The uniforms in the BBC photo appear to me to be Ukrainian Emergency Service workers. While the separatists are said to be in control of the crash area, Ukrainian officials and foreign observers/investigators have been in the area for several days, albeit subject to interference. See for example this report which indicates that the Ukrainian emergency services were trying to recover bodies on Saturday.
 
hoya
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting CBRboy (Reply 151):
Not everything is what it seems in relation to this incident. And not everything is as the media headlines make out. The uniforms in the BBC photo appear to me to be Ukrainian Emergency Service workers. While the separatists are said to be in control of the crash area, Ukrainian officials and foreign observers/investigators have been in the area for several days, albeit subject to interference. See for example this report which indicates that the Ukrainian emergency services were trying to recover bodies on Saturday.

It's quite possible that the firefighters, police workers, and other emergency response officials haven't changed their uniforms since the conflict in that part of Ukraine began. Additionally, uniforms in this conflict don't mean much. Just look at one of the pictures from the crash site with a "Russian separatist" wearing a uniform with the Union Jack on it. He's definitely not a member of the UK armed forces.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:29 pm

I noticed that U.S. aligned MSM (no offence, my dear European fellow members) outlets have changed the tone.
Yahoo published the opinion of an Iranian expert in "The Aviationist" - see the link above. And the article about Chinese reserved position on the matter.
Reuters is more decent today.

What I am absolutely certain: the U.S. government does NOT have any sufficient evidence/proof.
Both the Obama's and the Kerry's statements referred to social nets. Which is completely unacceptable.
I believe we should not expect any satellite images or anything what could be taken as serious evidence.
In fact, even Colin Powell's notorious speech at U.N. had more substance.
Those images might be interpreted as WMD.
It reminds me of the last August chemical weapon attack in Syria. The proof turned out an Israeli stuff, an intercepted cell phone conversation.

Which made me siding with our president: no BUK complexes have ever been supplied to the East-Ukrainian rebels.

I feel sorry that this discussion revealed political positions of A-Net members. I have been much happier when discussed AF447 without any politicking.
Those were different times, though.

[Edited 2014-07-21 07:30:43]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5721
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting hoya (Reply 152):

Yes.

It seems that the workers of the Ministry for Emergency Situations are more loyal to their employers than to the separatists. The separatists also seem to tolerate that these guys are using their uniforms which is emblazoned with МЧС and the name of the country they work for - Ukraine.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1421
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 150):
Where did you get your information that it is Ukraine who is preventing access?

Who is preventing access ? The OSCE is there since 2 days, international journalists are there etc. but the investigators are stuck in Kiew, since Kiew can't guarantee their security. So Kiew is saying its not safe, but people who are the site say its safe. I believe the OSCE and the Dutch investigators rather than the Ukrainian government.

Also Ukraine said there was no Ukrainian aircraft in the vincity of MH17, but now there is radar data of a fighter airplane very close to MH17 until it crashed. I would expect there is at least eyewitness from that fighter jet and the question remains, why this was not disclosed before ?
717/722/732/733/735/736/73G/739/739/741/742/743/744/748/74L/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/77L/788/789/781/DC10/L10/L15/M80/M90/320/321/319/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/T54/IL18/AT4/AT7/DH1/DH3/DH4/E145/170/1790/Bae146/RJ85/F50/F70/100/CR2/CR7/CR9
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1595
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 153):
What I am absolutely certain: the U.S. government does NOT have any sufficient evidence/proof.
Both the Obama's and the Kerry's statements referred to social nets. Which is completely unacceptable.
I believe we should not expect any satellite images or anything what could be taken as serious evidence.

So, in your opinion the following piece of new is complete US fabrication?

Quote:
A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down, the senior U.S. official said. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from, the official said.


Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/wo...e/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/
 
User avatar
Quantos
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:29 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:59 pm

This situation has all the elements to become an unsolvable mystery. At this point, Russia is accusing Ukraine, Ukraine is accusing the separatists and Russia, the US is accusing Russia, etc. Even if impartial investigators get to investigate this, the evidence has probably been tampered with so much by now that it will not be possible to come to a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Russia will say that a Ukrainian plane was in the vicinity of MH17. Who would have data to disprove this? The US, and Ukraine. Eventually people will need to form their own opinion depending on who they trust the most.
Quantos,

I maintain the Airbus A220 (formerly Bombardier C Series) Aircraft Status sheet: https://goo.gl/HZshto
Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:01 pm

Not necessarily, Finn350.
I could assume that the rebels might take this old BUK from UA Army, as they boasted.
It is quite possible that they launched the missile.
I also know that a number of the Russian retired military went there to fight for the cause.
Those people from Europe who joint ISIS thought they had the cause, too.

And by the way. The Russian Ministry of Defense statement said they detected the radar activity on the 17th in the region where the Ukranian BUK division was located.
Maybe our MoD is not as sophisticated as U.S. DoD. I doubt it though.

Anyway. The investigation, if conducted under ICAO, will give answers.
At least I hope so.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 157):
This situation has all the elements to become an unsolvable mystery.

Seems to be a recurring theme with MAS crashes.

I'm being glib, of course. Yes, the thing is, if it was accidental, Russia has the motive to cover it up, USSR-style. If it was intentional, the only people with the motive would be Ukraine - to have the world blame the Russians. Would they kill nearly 300 people to do that? Who knows - the USSR would, and they're not so far removed from all that.

With everyone blaming each other, the only company who could identify which rocket was used being a Russian company, and propaganda flying from all directions... We may never really know.

Well, we may know, 20-30 years later, as usual.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:19 pm

@Quantos
I wrote yesterday (thread #5): if a fragment of the missile is found, the manufacturer will be able to determine through metallurgical analysis when that particular missile was made and where delivered.
"Almaz-Antei" keep samples for decades. And alloys slightly differ and identifiable.

However, "Almaz-Antei" is on the U.S. sanctions list. So its evidence will hardly be acceptable for the U.S.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 153):
What I am absolutely certain: the U.S. government does NOT have any sufficient evidence/proof.Both the Obama's and the Kerry's statements referred to social nets. Which is completely unacceptable.
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 61):
I don't accept evidence published via Twitter or YouTube.


... unless the "evidence" fits your agenda:

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 40):
In the meantime, who is this Carlos, an air traffic controller? If he is in existence and alive, I hope he will appear somewhere.His tweets are really something. http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/201...mh17/
 
User avatar
Quantos
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:29 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 160):
However, "Almaz-Antei" is on the U.S. sanctions list. So its evidence will hardly be acceptable for the U.S.

Exactly. Basically, because all parties involved have reasons to discredit the others, whatever evidence may surface, even evidence that under a normal investigation would be regarded as rock-solid, will be put in doubt. Case in point: the black boxes. If they were indeed picked up by the separatists and sent to Russia, by and large, people will never believe whatever data may be on them.

[Edited 2014-07-21 08:36:24]
Quantos,

I maintain the Airbus A220 (formerly Bombardier C Series) Aircraft Status sheet: https://goo.gl/HZshto
Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
User avatar
SeJoWa
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:37 pm

Social media is one of the primary modern ways of communication - and social media has also uncovered Putin's manufactured propaganda by showing that pictures of alledged killings in Ukraine were actually lifted from old and completely unrelated material.

Pro-Separatists Mislead With Recycled Images ===(WARNING: Graphic Images)===
Published 4 June 2014
http://www.rferl.org/media/photogall...-propaganda-debunked/25411086.html

The perpetrators have already unmasked themselves publicly. And behind them stands Putin.

Putin's Russia has concocted lies first about the Maidan demonstrators, and from there on never stopped.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/21/54...an-protests-vice-video-documentary
Basically every time Vlad opens his mouth, falsehood is emitted. With a KGB smirk.

July 20, 2014 4:27 pm
MH17 crash: Evidence mounts on how jet was downed
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a1dcc...tml?siteedition=intl#axzz37nIVxfEy

The advantage to Vlad's minions of keeping legitimate forces from using air superiority over the Crimea [ Facists much? False elections under duress alot? ] and Eastern Ukraine should be clear, and the multiple previous shooting down of Ukrainian aircraft just might give a clue to what has been going on.
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:45 pm

I find it very intriguing that the opinions of our German fellow members differ exactly as "Der Spiegel" said:

"The Körber Foundation recently commissioned a study on Germans' attitudes toward German foreign policy. With which country should Germany cooperate in the future, respondents were asked? In a near-tie between East and West, close to 56 percent named the United States while 53 percent named Russia."
Germans "have demonstrated a surprising level of sympathy for the Russians and their president, Vladimir Putin, in the Ukraine crisis. This raises the fundamental question of Germany's national identity. In the long run, Germans will have to decide which side they prefer."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...litical-independence-a-979695.html

I would say: is it all about Russia, about Ukraine, about the U.S.?
Or is it all about Germany?
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:48 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):

You can post this another five times or so... It still won't make it any relevant.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 155):
Who is preventing access ? The OSCE is there since 2 days, international journalists are there etc. but the investigators are stuck in Kiew, since Kiew can't guarantee their security. So Kiew is saying its not safe, but people who are the site say its safe. I believe the OSCE and the Dutch investigators rather than the Ukrainian government.

For the separatists the crash site and the airspace above is Russian, therefore for them the Russian aviation authorityand government should be in charge. Yesterday OSCE inspectors were told to f*ck off by separatist militiamen and sent on their way with shots into the air.
See: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28384930

Understandable that under these circumstances the Ukrainian government cannot guarantee for the safety of the investigators.

Technically the Ukrainians are in charge, since no country, except maybe Russia, recognises the People's Republic of Donetzk, but the rebels are refusing to let the Ukrainians handle the investigation, since it would mean that then the separatists will have to admit that they are still Ukrainians (and not Russians).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 165):

   Indeed. These threads have already surpassed the MH370 threads as the most pathetic I can remember in the history of a.net.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):
I find it very intriguing that the opinions of our German fellow members differ exactly as "Der Spiegel" said:

This is not the first time you've done this. Why are you raising this again?
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/read.main/6131379/#98
 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:42 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):
I would say: is it all about Russia, about Ukraine, about the U.S.?
Or is it all about Germany?

I pray that the US levies some real sanctions against Russia where Boeing, Microsoft and Intel stop being able to employee people in Russia. If those engineers want jobs they can come to the US.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1422
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 168):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):I find it very intriguing that the opinions of our German fellow members differ exactly as "Der Spiegel" said:This is not the first time you've done this. Why are you raising this again?https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/read.main/6131379/#98

All of this is getting a Little out of Hand. Yes, us Gerries most certainly may have voted in an unoffcial questionaire in a Shopping mall, as stated above! and yes, aswell as the fact that we are now a re-unified Nation with a lot of ´eastern influcence´, besides having a rather objective and subjective People , None of these 53/56% Quotes have anything at all to do with local sentiment in regards to this incident!
Are Germans more open to the russians then most - why yes indeed, they finally gave us half of our Country back and (looking at Commercial aspects, besides trade) sure keep our stoves warm with their gas!

But what oin earth does this ´Der Spiegel´ poll have to do with (german) public opinion on MH17? Why does it Keep getting quoted in this respect!

Nothing at all, please stop quoting it, it is so out of context to what the german pululous feels in regards to MH17, that we are doing shame to the victims even discussing this....!

[Edited 2014-07-21 09:08:48]
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5721
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):

I dare say that much of the "sympathy" towards Russia comes from the NSA spying scandal. Wishful "the enemy of my enemy must be a friend" thinking.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 167):
These threads have already surpassed the MH370 threads as the most pathetic I can remember in the history of a.net.

But sophisticated equipment like a snow globe could tell us who fired that missile.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
jmp367
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:16 pm

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 163):
Social media is one of the primary modern ways of communication - and social media has also uncovered Putin's manufactured propaganda by showing that pictures of alledged killings in Ukraine were actually lifted from old and completely unrelated material.

It would seem that Putin's Russia is busy manufacturing other forms of propaganda as well and making a concerted effort to pin the blame on the Ukrainian government, such as the following:

Twitterbot catches Russian State Media anonymously editing MH17 Wikipedia entry: http://boingboing.net/2014/07/19/twitterbot-catches-russian-sta.html
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:18 pm

I am sorry. I forgot. People forget. I did.

I used the Spiegel's article in discussions on WaPo and Reuters.

@YouGeeEIWhy
The Russian companies will be absolutely happy.
200 engineers have been working in the downtown Moscow for "Boeing."
As I myself worked on H-1B in the U.S., I know how hard it is to be on working visa.
So the most will stay in Russia.

[Edited 2014-07-21 09:22:24]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:21 pm

 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:42 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 174):
The Russian companies will be absolutely happy.
200 engineers have been working in the downtown Moscow for "Boeing."
As I myself worked on H-1B in the U.S., I know how hard it is to be on working visa.
So the most will stay in Russia.

Enjoy living in East Belarus because it is coming.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3130
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 153):
What I am absolutely certain: the U.S. government does NOT have any sufficient evidence/proof.
Both the Obama's and the Kerry's statements referred to social nets. Which is completely unacceptable.

Maybe unacceptable to you, but when the pro-Russian thugs who control the area use social media to brag about downing an airplane, and when they use social sites to communicate their "successes" to the rest of the world, those words and visages are the most credible ways to see exactly what they are doing. It isn't Western "MSM" that chose to use social media; it is the perpetrators themselves.

[Edited 2014-07-21 09:27:34]
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
Posts: 3130
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 165):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 164):
You can post this another five times or so... It still won't make it any relevant.

         It reminds me of the old adage; "If you repeat a lie often enough, someone will believe it."
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Skyguy
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting YouGeeElWhy (Reply 169):
I pray that the US levies some real sanctions against Russia where Boeing, Microsoft and Intel stop being able to employee people in Russia. If those engineers want jobs they can come to the US.

I would argue that sanctions against Russia will have little to zero impact on Putin's policies and actions. His ego will not allow him to capitulate to the threat of any sanctions, no matter of what magnitude.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:42 pm

Okay. This is irrelevant what you think of me. This discussion has changed a lot.

Finally. Our Ministry of Defense presented its version today.
Follow the link and scroll down to the video. It has English translation.

Switch to "full screen" to see the maps and the laser pointer.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-sh...dict-wests-baseless-claims/5392468
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 175):
Russia's top-10 lies about MH17:

http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-...ies-about-downed-malaysia-airliner

Excellent anaylsis and unmasking of continuous lies, with clear supporting evidence directly from Russian media. I challenge the Putin apologists and tin-foil wearers to refute it.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3130
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 180):
Finally. Our Ministry of Defense presented its version today.

Your Ministry of Defense? Is that your news source?

Can you access this page? Or is it blocked to you? If you can access it, please read it, and tell us - with evidence, point-by-point - what is incorrect.

http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-...ies-about-downed-malaysia-airliner
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:03 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 180):
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

Quote:
Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as the moonbat equivalent to WorldNetDaily. It is the website of the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky.
...
While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from Russia Today, along with other unreliable and/or open sources.
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:18 pm

Well... Maybe you could still watch the official presentation of the Russian MoD?

Just for a change.

JMP367 (or whatever it is,) I guess I can be considered a volunteer. I am on vacation at home.
So I had time to return to my beloved A-Net forum.
The forum didn't change. The time has changed.

[Edited 2014-07-21 10:27:10]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5907
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 153):
I feel sorry that this discussion revealed political positions of A-Net members.

Most of us have been discussing verifiable facts.

--------------------------

Perhaps we should consider that this incident has proven that freedom of the press and free speech as we understand them do not exist in Russia today. That just like under the old Soviet leaderships, people in Russia have to repeat the party line, or apparently risk serious consequences.

You have my sympathy, because it appears you do not have the freedom to speak anything that differs from the propaganda put out by Putin's government.
 
jmp367
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 186):
Perhaps we should consider that this incident has proven that freedom of the press and free speech as we understand them do not exist in Russia today. That just like under the old Soviet leaderships, people in Russia have to repeat the party line, or apparently risk serious consequences.

You have my sympathy, because it appears you do not have the freedom to speak anything that differs from the propaganda put out by Putin's government.

I believe, rather than the Russian citizens not having the freedom to speak anything that differs from the official Russian government propaganda line, that they are so unquestioningly nationalistic and are in total denial that their nation can nor could do any wrong.
 
User avatar
EVAAIRBR076
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 6:24 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 185):

Yes it could be possible too and i think thats the problem with this accident or attack, from both sides a dirty political game is and will be played. As a dutch we feel just so angry of how things are going expecially how the bodies of the victims are treated. The pro activists just have no respect for what so ever, and putin is naive and not showing any regret etc, cause u cant deny he supports those activist cause for sure they are led by moscow. Angry cause some russians are still denying that russia had something to do with it, so naive it is. And things we saw on tv just shows us that they try to cover up things. But i have to say we cant blame all russians, and what we see a bit is that people or nations are putting up against eachother, and thats not good. Political leaders are just scum and we normal people are the victims of their dirty games. But it would suit russia not to deny the attack and at least not play ussr style with their handling of the case. And yes i am also still waiting for the so called evidence from the western side.
 
panampaul
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:30 pm

The Malaysian prime minister has just said that his country is taking custody of the black boxes as well as of the victims' bodies, which are being sent to the Netherlands for forensic identification apparently.

Malaysia to Take Custody of Black Boxes and Bodies from Flight 17

This is indeed a very sad task but one that has to be done Hopefully the separatist/rebels in the Ukraine don't change their minds.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 185):
Well... Maybe you could still watch the official presentation of the Russian MoD?

You're right! We should believe everything that comes out of Russia these days. Just like KAL 007, right?
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:35 pm

The FT is now reporting that a piece of wreckage has been found that shows damage that is consistent with a missile strike:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9...2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html

The piece comes from the left side of the cockpit, indicating that the aircraft was hit on its front left.

That would be consistent with being hit by a SAM launched from the area where the Buk was seen. It would also seem inconsistent with being hit by an AAM fired by a trailing fighter jet...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7537
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting panampaul (Reply 189):
The Malaysian prime minister has just said that his country is taking custody of the black boxes as well as of the victims' bodies, which are being sent to the Netherlands for forensic identification apparently.

Absolutely unnecessary for Malays to touch these black boxes. Dutch can handle. When done with analysis send a ppt. Other than Malay nationals why would they need custody of all bodies.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 191):
The piece comes from the left side of the cockpit, indicating that the aircraft was hit on its front left.

So in other words, the pilots were knocked out immediately and there was no chance of any kind of recovery. Great.
 
D L X
Posts: 12619
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 192):
Absolutely unnecessary for Malays to touch these black boxes. Dutch can handle. When done with analysis send a ppt. Other than Malay nationals why would they need custody of all bodies.

The black boxes are Malaysian property, are they not? It should be returned to them.

Quoting Karadion (Reply 193):
So in other words, the pilots were knocked out immediately and there was no chance of any kind of recovery. Great.

The pilots and the avionics, likely.
 
trex8
Posts: 5365
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 192):
Absolutely unnecessary for Malays to touch these black boxes. Dutch can handle. When done with analysis send a ppt. Other than Malay nationals why would they need custody of all bodies.

Because its their plane and the Dutch actually have no jurisdiction in the investigation, the only people who have a right to access those boxes are the Ukrainians - it happened over their "territory", Malays -plane is registered in their country and the US/UK as OEM of the airframe/engine.

It may actually be a good idea to have the Malaysians involved a lot more, down to providing security at the site, after all, the Russians see the Dutch as puppets of Washington while the Malays should be seen as more independant.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5721
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 194):
The black boxes are Malaysian property, are they not? It should be returned to them.

Malaysia steps in because they do not take sides in the Ukraine conflict. The rebels would lose face when handing the recorders over to Ukraine.

If Dutch-Land   and Malaysia carry out the analysis, they can relieve Ukraine from a certain burden.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
galleypower
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:54 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 192):
Absolutely unnecessary for Malays to touch these black boxes. Dutch can handle. When done with analysis send a ppt. Other than Malay nationals why would they need custody of all bodies.

Well, it just says they are taking custody. Which, after all, is their right since it is their aircraft. It doesnt say or mean that they take it to Malaysia. They are in charge of this and decide what to do with it. Which is good news. Or at least better than being lost somewhere in the background of this mess.
 
Skyguy
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 195):
It may actually be a good idea to have the Malaysians involved a lot more, down to providing security at the site, after all, the Russians see the Dutch as puppets of Washington while the Malays should be seen as more independant.

  

This is a viable proposition, Malaysians being seen as "neutral" maybe in the best position to lead the recovery efforts, IF both the Ukranians and Russian-backed rebels who are currently in control of the impact site, agree.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:14 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 191):
It would also seem inconsistent with being hit by an AAM fired by a trailing fighter jet...

And why is that, I am wondering?
If you look at the Russian MoD scheme, MIG-25 was not trailing. It was flying exactly toward the MAS aircraft.
If so, an AAM is quite possible.


I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
trex8
Posts: 5365
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:19 pm

Supposedly it was a Su25 with R60 AAMs, these are not great all aspect IR missiles and if they were launched against something like a 777 flying towards it they would almost certainly go straight for the engines.
 
Jano
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:48 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 199):
And why is that, I am wondering?
If you look at the Russian MoD scheme, MIG-25 was not trailing. It was flying exactly toward the MAS aircraft.
If so, an AAM is quite possible.

So, assuming there is a Ukrainian SU25 to the south-east of MH17.

regarding its armamnet:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 200):

Supposedly it was a Su25 with R60 AAMs, these are not great all aspect IR missiles and if they were launched against something like a 777 flying towards it they would almost certainly go straight for the engines.

Rebels are after SU25. Something goes wrong and MH17 is downed.
The Widget Air Line :)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos