karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:33 pm

That presentation is bullshit. It claims that the Su-25 was at a ceiling of 10,000 meters? And yet the maximum service ceiling unloaded is 7,000 meters due to the CAS nature of the plane.
 
LH707330
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 199):
And why is that, I am wondering?
If you look at the Russian MoD scheme, MIG-25 was not trailing. It was flying exactly toward the MAS aircraft.
If so, an AAM is quite possible.

That picture looks like a 707, are you sure they didn't just recycle the same slides from KL902 in 1978?
 
trex8
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting Jano (Reply 201):

Rebels are after SU25. Something goes wrong and MH17 is downed.

Certainly possible if the Su25 was in fact in the area. Though IIRC the posts from the separatists on social media which then got deleted where they were gloating over a shootdown seemed to indicate it was a large plane but my memory could be wrong.
 
karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 204):
Certainly possible if the Su25 was in fact in the area. Though IIRC the posts from the separatists on social media which then got deleted where they were gloating over a shootdown seemed to indicate it was a large plane but my memory could be wrong.

It was claimed they shot down another Antonov plane, not a Sukhoi.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 194):
The black boxes are Malaysian property, are they not? It should be returned to them.
Quoting trex8 (Reply 195):
Because its their plane and the Dutch actually have no jurisdiction in the investigation, the only people who have a right to access those boxes are the Ukrainians - it happened over their "territory", Malays -plane is registered in their country and the US/UK as OEM of the airframe/engine.
Quoting galleypower (Reply 197):
Well, it just says they are taking custody. Which, after all, is their right since it is their aircraft. It doesnt say or mean that they take it to Malaysia. They are in charge of this and decide what to do with it. Which is good news. Or at least better than being lost somewhere in the background of this mess.

They couldn't read/recover data from a Windows based FSX We don't know who did what to these boxes. It will be a guaranteed cluster$%^&.

I think this is Putin's master play. Going forward theory of the day will "Malays screwed up" and every one has to live with it. So far the stupidest thing(if true) is Putin giving BUK to rebels, once Malays get CVR/DVR this takes the cake.

I think ICAO should be abolished. No one follows its guidelines, most countries make up their own. ICAO won't publish audit results. No way of know which country/airline is following standards. Annex 13 is jinxed. Absolutely worthless.
 
osiris30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 199):
And why is that, I am wondering?
If you look at the Russian MoD scheme, MIG-25 was not trailing. It was flying exactly toward the MAS aircraft.
If so, an AAM is quite possible.

I just have to ask. If you're so quick to dismiss the rest of the entire world's media why are you so quick to believe everything coming from the Russian government. You say social media is irrelevant and not good enough for you, but you quoted social media when it agreed with your stance. When people challenge you on these points you ignore them and change the topic. I would appreciate if you could explain your actions, because otherwise you seem to be trolling the forum at best or intentionally spreading disinformation at worst.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:42 pm

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens...lock-access-to-crash-site-n1864241

The link above I think sheds some light on the situation.

As for the bigger picture I think Russia is playing a dangerous game. What they are doing in the Crimea and Ukraine are not so much Cold War tactics but pre WW2 Nazi tactics. Scarier yet is that Russia public opinion supports Putin’s actions. I would ask our Russian friends to think hard on this.

As for us in the West this should be wake up call.

Outside of the last 70 years what is happening now has been the norm in Europe for over a thousand years; a European state is insecure as it feels surrounded and expands out ward to gain more security which eventuality leads to a huge war and untold civilian casualties.

Today it is Russia surrounded by the West, Muslims and China. In the past it has been France, Germany or the Austrians and while circumstances may have been different the basic insecurity dynamic is not.

It strikes me that the West needs to unite so that Russia sees that territorial expansion is a dead end. Given the weak leadership in the US and the dependence by Europe on Russian energy this is tough but we might as well get started now.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 207):
I just have to ask. If you're so quick to dismiss the rest of the entire world's media why are you so quick to believe everything coming from the Russian government. You say social media is irrelevant and not good enough for you, but you quoted social media when it agreed with your stance. When people challenge you on these points you ignore them and change the topic. I would appreciate if you could explain your actions, because otherwise you seem to be trolling the forum at best or intentionally spreading disinformation at worst.

And the worst part is how blatant it is. It is very unbelievable and it makes me wonder if they actually believe this or if they think we are dumb enough to ourselves. I was amused by an article saying that the Russian government pays people to spread pro-Russian propaganda on forums all over the internet... I'm actually starting to believe it. Either that or a large amount of Russians are brainwashed. Sad, really
 
slinky09
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:04 pm

It is a very good step to hear that the deceased, or most of them, are being repatriated to The Netherlands. For their families and loved ones, that means the process of identification and closure can hopefully begin. I hope all efforts ae being made to locate the final bodies.

As to the recorders, it is also good news that they will soon, hopefully, be in the hands of investigators. I am sure that their experts will be able to determine if the data is intact, or has been deliberately corrupted.

I see everything good that the Malays are huge intermediaries here, as has been said they have a greater degree of neutrality to act in between the parties.

Now let the investigation begin, albeit that the deliberate destruction of the crash site is incredibly disturbing. As President Obama said earlier, why is this being done if there is nothing to hide. Please Russian sympathisers, inform us why this is happening when all the investigating bodies have asked for unfettered access?

As to propaganda, all governments are well capable of this, but generally Western countries have a free press that can criticise, investigate, and report. I tend to view their news reports in more favourable light than state funded news organisations who are paid to promote their governments agenda. Frankly anything coming out of Russia is tainted in terms of truthfulness. Let's now hear from the investigation teams, especially regarding evidence of the missile used.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 208):


I have no idea what those oversimplified metahistorical musings have to do with the topic of this thread. I think I will agree with user UALWN and just give up reading the MH17-threads.  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 202):
That presentation is bullshit. It claims that the Su-25 was at a ceiling of 10,000 meters? And yet the maximum service ceiling unloaded is 7,000 meters due to the CAS nature of the plane.

So yet another Russian lie. The service ceiling with armament is only 5,000 metres. So much for "facts" from the Russian Ministry of Defence.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:20 pm

The Russian MoD has released a detailed report about the situation in the skies over eastern Ukraine at the time of the incident, including locations of Buk launchers before, during and after the days of the crash. So far this is the best "hard" analysis I have seen. I know it should be treated with a grain of salt, but it is coming from a high level and I say we should give it the benefit of a doubt.
 
osiris30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 213):
The Russian MoD has released a detailed report about the situation in the skies over eastern Ukraine at the time of the incident, including locations of Buk launchers before, during and after the days of the crash. So far this is the best "hard" analysis I have seen. I know it should be treated with a grain of salt, but it is coming from a high level and I say we should give it the benefit of a doubt.

You should read the two replies immediately above yours that almost instantly discredit this Russian document:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 212):

Quoting Karadion (Reply 202):
That presentation is bullshit. It claims that the Su-25 was at a ceiling of 10,000 meters? And yet the maximum service ceiling unloaded is 7,000 meters due to the CAS nature of the plane.

So yet another Russian lie. The service ceiling with armament is only 5,000 metres. So much for "facts" from the Russian Ministry of Defence.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 207):
If you're so quick to dismiss the rest of the entire world's media why are you so quick to believe everything coming from the Russian government.

"The entire world's media" does not sound too credible either. Are you on the ground at the accident site when you are so quick to reach conclusions? Would you like to share anything with us? Please just don't quote "credible" sources such as CNN or alike. Although I don't trust Russian government much, it's amazing how Cold War mindsets popped up to the surface and how everyone is passionate at making conclusions before any investigation was even performed.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 213):
The Russian MoD has released a detailed report about the situation in the skies over eastern Ukraine at the time of the incident, including locations of Buk launchers before, during and after the days of the crash. So far this is the best "hard" analysis I have seen. I know it should be treated with a grain of salt, but it is coming from a high level and I say we should give it the benefit of a doubt.

Does it conflict with anything we already know? I've been off the grid lately but from what I've heard, we are pretty certain there was a Buk in the area around the time of the shooting and that one was being transported away after the shoot down. If this Buk was not annotated in Russia's presentation, it will be a huge red flag. Also, I wonder how they explain away the deleted tweet and the phone call?

I'm sure each excuse is plausible enough but when you require all the excuses to line up perfectly, the plausibility starts to dwindle greatly.

I know it's not Putin's style, but he probably should have admitted to the rebels doing it right away and made some heads roll. It's starting to look more and more shady and I don't think he's really fooling anyone but the Russian citizens
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 195):
It may actually be a good idea to have the Malaysians involved a lot more, down to providing security at the site, after all, the Russians see the Dutch as puppets of Washington while the Malays should be seen as more independant.

Yeah, the Malays are top notch.   
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
I think ICAO should be abolished. No one follows its guidelines, most countries make up their own.

Rubbish.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
ICAO won't publish audit results.

Rubbish. They're right on the ICAO website: http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USOAP-Results.aspx

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
Annex 13 is jinxed. Absolutely worthless.

Rubbish. Signatory countries almost invariably follow Annex 13.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 216):
I've been off the grid lately but from what I've heard, we are pretty certain there was a Buk in the area around the time of the shooting

They're talking about Ukrainian Buk's in that presentation. Not the one the separatists supposedly borrowed from the Russian army.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
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PW100
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting turn720 (Reply 59):
Tell me, will Russia or their rebel friends compensate the victims in this incident? Will they even own up to it?

How is that worth nuking them . . . ?

I hope you understand the context where I was coming from. Perhaps rereading my post, and the one I reacted to would help.

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 210):
I see everything good that the Malays are huge intermediaries here, as has been said they have a greater degree of neutrality to act in between the parties.

This is an easy assumption to make, but I would be perhaps more circumspect about this perceived neutrality.

The Malaysians are right now in the midst of a massive, unprecedented cover-up that percolates through all levels of the govt. This fact alone should seriously erode confidence in any semblance of neutrality, as the Malaysians will do whatever necessary to further their own self-interest.

While I understand they are seemingly the best of bad options, any expectation of true objectivity here is grossly delusional.

[Edited 2014-07-21 13:36:02]
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:50 pm

Mein lieber Freund JimJupiter!

Just do not say you are going to leave us (what a tremendous loss for the thread!) because of presence of the sole Russian here.

This discussion is the mirror of the present very dangerous situation.
Please notice: the most participants are from the US/EU. While our fellow members from the rest of the world are keeping silence.
It's exactly what's happening today.
This is a very hard discussion. It was not meant to happen here at A-Net.
But it is also a unique one: the present unprecedented low in the U.S./EU - Russia's relations got materialized in this tragedy.
Yes, we used to talk about numbers of A & B sold.
However, as soon as the community has faced something bigger, something more difficult - we turned out to be almost enemies.
Jeez, I have been working with Americans for 20 years. But here we all are under nicknames. And exactly like at WaPo anti-Obama discussions, people reveal their worst qualities: hatred; arrogance; inability even to make an attempt to look out of the box.
Masks off and political correctness forgotten.
I took this crash personally. I was in Kuala-Lumpur in March when MH370 disappeared. I had negotiations there; I had no time to get into details of that crash. But I saw how beautiful Malaysian people suffered.
This time I am fully involved. And I want to know the truth as much as you all do.
But to find out the truth we all need some more understanding. Not assumed guilt - but strength to start all over again. To overcome prejudices.
This is a great community. It deserves better.

So, JimJupiter, I can say: Amigo, come back!
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 202):
It claims that the Su-25 was at a ceiling of 10,000 meters? And yet the maximum service ceiling unloaded is 7,000 meters due to the CAS nature of the plane.

My thoughts as well. To call the Su-25 a "fighter" is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, it's a warplane, but it's a mud mover designed for close air support, as you note. The Frogfoot is the Russian copy of the Northrop YA-9 (the competitor to the A-10 in the USAF's competition for a dedicated CAS aircraft), not a true fighter in that air-to-air engagements are an afterthought, not a raison d'etre. I don't think it has the ceiling to engage a 772 at cruising altitude and I honestly doubt their pilots are trained in aerial intercepts. If this were an Su-27 or a MiG-29 we were talking about, I might *maybe* give some credence to it, but to use an aircraft that's designed to fly low and slow and drop bombs is a stretch, IMO, especially when you have aircraft better suited for it.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
I think ICAO should be abolished. No one follows its guidelines, most countries make up their own.

Rubbish.

You can say what you want. ICAO has no teeth. In its current form it is worth less than the paper its charter printed on. Just like any other UN organization

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
ICAO won't publish audit results.

Rubbish. They're right on the ICAO website: http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USO....aspx

What is the value if a high score country is less safe than low score. Audit results should reflect country's aviation safety standards. Let them publish detailed audit report. Why a UN organization should keep these detailed reports secret, from public.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
Annex 13 is jinxed. Absolutely worthless.

Rubbish. Signatory countries almost invariably follow Annex 13.

And why entire world is saying "Please give back black boxes" and "Please allow investigators"
 
osiris30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 215):
"The entire world's media" does not sound too credible either. Are you on the ground at the accident site when you are so quick to reach conclusions? Would you like to share anything with us? Please just don't quote "credible" sources such as CNN or alike. Although I don't trust Russian government much, it's amazing how Cold War mindsets popped up to the surface and how everyone is passionate at making conclusions before any investigation was even performed.

My question wasn't about the validity of the rest of the world's media in a vacuum. It was about a poster's refusal to consider other opinions and solely stick to the 'party line' coming from Moscow. I don't really trust anyone side, even though I have a pretty good idea in my head of what 'side' pulled the trigger, just on the basis of who likely pulled the trigger. I hardly consider CNN trustworthy either, but it doesn't change the question.

Furthermore, the fact the poster I was replying to REFUSES to acknowledge such questions, answers them in and of themselves.

Long story short on this crisis: aviation and innocent people played the price for greed and power aspirations of others. I'm the last person to agree with most US foreign policy moves, but in this case, I can honestly say my *gut* puts more of the blame for *this* incident on the other side (the rest of the world's conflicts we can discuss in a relevant forum).

[Edited 2014-07-21 13:18:39]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 222):

I would certainly not be put off by the "presence of a sole Russian" here! Rather by the low standard of some off topic contributions, but I wasn't referring to your posts at all in that statement.  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 199):
an AAM is quite possible
Quoting trex8 (Reply 200):
Supposedly it was a Su25 with R60 AAMs, these are not great all aspect IR missiles and if they were launched against something like a 777 flying towards it they would almost certainly go straight for the engines.

Can the SU-25 even be fitted with R60s (or any missile)? They were designed to carry S24 unguided rockets, but S24 use was prohibited after a number of crashes when the weapon was fired. As far as I know, R60s were designed for MIGs.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
osiris30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 224):
And why entire world is saying "Please give back black boxes" and "Please allow investigators"

Ummm... because the people in control of that geography aren't signatories to any documentation and are rebels controlling territory of a country??? Unless you're suggesting we are ICAO operatives (heavily) there will occasionally be situations like this.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 224):

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 206):
Annex 13 is jinxed. Absolutely worthless.

Rubbish. Signatory countries almost invariably follow Annex 13.

And why entire world is saying "Please give back black boxes" and "Please allow investigators"

Precisely. You've made my point. The whole world is saying follow the obligations set out in Annex 13 (International Convention on Civil Aviation).
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 224):
And why entire world is saying "Please give back black boxes" and "Please allow investigators"

The situation in the area is hardly 'normal', is it? You have heavily armed, disorganised rebels in control of a crash site. In all probability, they've been busy trying to hide any evidence of their wrongdoing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 216):
Also, I wonder how they explain away the deleted tweet and the phone call?

From what I recall they didn't talk about those. It was more of a technical presentation.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 216):
I've been off the grid lately but from what I've heard, we are pretty certain there was a Buk in the area around the time of the shooting and that one was being transported away after the shoot down.

The report shows real time satellite images of the area in the days around the crash showing many Buks, not just one.

Quoting Karadion (Reply 202):
That presentation is bullshit. It claims that the Su-25 was at a ceiling of 10,000 meters? And yet the maximum service ceiling unloaded is 7,000 meters due to the CAS nature of the plane.

True, Su-25 has a low ceiling and unpressurized cockpit. However they didn't say they were 100% certain it was a Su-25. All they said is that primary radar detected an aircraft in the area without transponder (military) and they think it is Su-25. Could be any type.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 223):
I don't think it has the ceiling to engage a 772 at cruising altitude and I honestly doubt their pilots are trained in aerial intercepts. If this were an Su-27 or a MiG-29 we were talking about, I might *maybe* give some credence to it, but to use an aircraft that's designed to fly low and slow and drop bombs is a stretch, IMO, especially when you have aircraft better suited for it.

There's no allegation the Su-25 shot the 777, just that it was flying in the area (if it was a Su-25 at all even)

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 227):
Can the SU-25 even be fitted with R60s

Yes, but I'd be very surprised if UkAF pilots are trained in the use of them.

[Edited 2014-07-21 13:40:50]
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 126):
The Ukrainians could wait until the bodies are taken out of the war zone.

Yes wait and let Putin re-arm rebels at the same time. Good choice. Ukraine offered a deal. Seal the borders and all rebels put their arms down so that investigators get un-obstructed access to the crash site. But, no, that's not good enough. Fine, then face the music.
 
hohd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:35 pm

Compared to US, the Malaysian authorities have refrained from finger pointing or criticizing Russia or Ukraine or the rebels. Their response is measured, all they are interested at this time is recovery of the bodies quickly, followed by a thorough investigation. It appears that US is more concerned than even Malaysia, even though US lost only 1 citizen and Malaysia lost several citizens, plus the plane.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 227):
Can the SU-25 even be fitted with R60s (or any missile)?

Yes, Frogfoots can carry both Atolls (AA-2/K-13) and Aphids (AA-8/R-60).
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
chiad
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 222):
This discussion is the mirror of the present very dangerous situation.

I think it's extremely important by everyone that is seriously searching for the truth about these matter to drop everything you know by now and start to gather information over again.

A tip for the westerners and Russians is to start searching for news elsewhere but our daily media.
We just cannot trust them anymore! I am not saying the everything is false, but so much is that everyone needs to start gathering the pieces over.

I can easily imagine a plot by the Western powers and Ukraine aimed at hurting Russia (lightly influenced by House of Cards).
And I can also imagine Pro-Russian separatists shooting down this plane "by accident".

I am trying to search for news in Chinese media, but they hardly touch the matter.
Do anyone have a tip of an "unbiased media-source " somewhere in the world that doesn't benefit anything either way by the Ukrainian crisis?
 
sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:45 pm

I just want to make it clear the Russian report does not put blame on any side, nor does it say definitively what brought down the 777. All it really saya is that Russia detected the presence of Buk launchers and the detection of a military aircraft in the area at the time of the incident. They also have asked the USA for help by providing any satellite images or other information. The report claims Russia detected a US satellite was over the region during the accident. To me this seems like a fair report.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 144):
With all due respect, I can't see any of the people in that picture knowing what a warhead fragment would look like in the middle of a pile of twisted wreckage. I know I wouldn't.

Plus fragments could be imbedded in passenger's bodies.
Russians are clumsy, they will leave plenty of evidence behind.
 
CO953
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:59 pm

Hey, can I just ask three establishing questions here for my own benefit - I just peeked in on the thread and maybe missed it and am just reading something about an Su-25 in the area of MH17. If the following was already answered, I apologize in advance:

What is the realistic service altitude for an Su-25 *without* armament, if the pilot was using oxygen?

Could the altitude being used by MH17 (33,000 ft. I think?) also be a reasonable innocent altitude for say, a ferry-type/repositioning, etc., flight - if the pilot wanted to stay high so as to avoid low-flying missiles - if for an unrelated reason the Su-25 was being moved that day and that its proximity may have been just coincidence?

Secondly, regarding aircraft identification, would the Su-25 return a similar radar reflection as a 777, or would the size and/or shape differential be obvious to the opertaors of the type of guidance system used in a "Buk?"

Thirdly, what Soviet jets would mimic the radar reflection of a 777?

Thanks for the input
 
LH707330
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 238):
Secondly, regarding aircraft identification, would the Su-25 return a similar radar reflection as a 777, or would the size and/or shape differential be obvious to the opertaors of the type of guidance system used in a "Buk?"

Probably not, the 777 is huge and has open, exposed fan blades, which give a massive RCS.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 238):
Thirdly, what Soviet jets would mimic the radar reflection of a 777?

An IL-76, IL-96, or any other large transport with similar characteristics.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 239):

Important to note that the separatists only had one TELAR (transporter, erector and launcher), but not the vehicle with the advanced radar capabilites, and also no command vehicle. Differentiating various aircraft is difficult having only the TELAR. According to what I've previously read, the TELAR can launch a missile and paint the target with radar, but not identify it.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 222):
This discussion is the mirror of the present very dangerous situation.

Mein lieber Pylon101, only a few weeks ago a Russian called me "tovarish". I was careful to include him and friends in our round, and abstained from political discussions so as not to sour the mood.

That doesn't make Putin less of a liar and a menace.

I've been carefully following what's been happening in Russia over the last years, relying especially on in-depth interviews on the Deutschlandfunk German public radio, and investigative journalism by the NYT, WP, and reputable European newspapers (I'm also fluent in French & German).

Ever since the people of Maidan got collectively tarred with the vile and false allegation of being "fascists" for claiming their freedom from brotherly - botherly - Russian love of the KGB kind, I can't but be an antagonist to Russia as it now presents itself.

And ever since then, Putinia has gone into deception overdrive.

Notice that "liberties" don't exist in Putin-speak.

Here's another interesting piece of writing by a Russian from Vedomosti for some deeper perspective.

The Opinion Pages
Russia's Anti-West Isolationism
JULY 20, 2014

Maxim Trudolyubov is the opinion page editor of the business newspaper Vedomosti.

...
We do not know who pulled the trigger, but we know that the armed rebels operating in the east of Ukraine have always had the vocal support of high-ranking Kremlin officials. Since late February, when Ukraine’s pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, fled Kiev, Russia’s official media has been bending over backward to present the new Ukrainian government as a fascist junta manipulated by the West while the Kremlin pursues its twin goals — keeping NATO and Western economic influence in check.

The virulent, anti-American, anti-Western rhetoric emanating from the Kremlin has been one of the main drivers of Moscow’s support for the Ukrainian conflict. This antipathy has its roots in the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the dashed hopes and disillusion that fueled an unprincipled scramble for wealth and power in the anarchy that followed.
...
SOURCE: www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/opinion/r...west-isolationism.html?ref=opinion
 
BruceSmith
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:38 pm

News sites reporting a unanimous resolution by the UN Security Council demanding full access to the crash site and putting the ICAO at the head of the investigation over Ukraine and Malaysia.

http://www.news24.com/World/News/UN-...access-to-MH17-crash-site-20140721
 
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zeke
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:42 pm

The UN security council has unanimously adopted the Australian sponsored resolution, which amongst other things establishes the ground work for an independent investigation, and international access to the crash site.

The bodies are being moved by train no, to be repatriated to Amsterdam for identification.

There has been an undertaken given to surrender the CVD/DFDR to international investigators.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:44 pm

An Airbus Defence and Space satellite took a photo of the crash site:

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 244):
An Airbus Defence and Space satellite took a photo of the crash site:

That part of the crash site is at exactly 48° 8'20.07"N 38°38'21.69"E.

[Edited 2014-07-21 14:58:09]
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
The Separatists are not Russian; they are Ukrainian citizens!

All those men running around with masked faces are Russian soldiers
 
nupogodi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 243):
An Airbus Defence and Space satellite took a photo of the crash site:


The angle looks pretty extreme for a satellite, I'm a little impressed. It looks more like aerial photography to me.

You'd be imaging through a LOT of atmosphere to have such a pronounced angle from space...
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
The Separatists are not Russian; they are Ukrainian citizens!

They are ethnic Russians and Russian citizens among them who don´t give a flying dingo about Ukraine.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
Yes, they do want to break away from that country and rather be with Russia!

Of course they do.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
Their own government is fighting them and shooting at them for it!

Exactly. And they deserve it. You may wish to change countries, but you have no right to take chunks of the land along.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
Is it any wonder then that the people in that area are very reluctant to let just anybody in to work on the wreckage? No...

No. Being the drunken, ignorant amateurs they are, it´s no wonder. They still have not realized they are way in over their heads.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
Who is to blame for it all then?

Vladimir Putin.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 245):
The politicians and diplomats who are not doing their job properly; and certainly not sincerely!

Of course. Starting with Vladimir Putin and his Russian lap dogs.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:40 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 243):
An Airbus Defence and Space satellite took a photo of the crash site:

Is it just a coincidence the jet actually missed those houses, or was there some attempt to steer clear of them. I know up to this point it's been mentioned the plane disintegrated mid-air, and one poster even mentioned it fell to the ground inverted. A real miracle those houses survived and all the occupants inside.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 238):
Secondly, regarding aircraft identification, would the Su-25 return a similar radar reflection as a 777, or would the size and/or shape differential be obvious to the opertaors of the type of guidance system used in a "Buk?"

Unless you have the entire Buk system (not just the launcher) operational and a trained team of people using it, then you will not have a picture complete enough to distinguish between a civlian jet and a military one.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 238):
What is the realistic service altitude for an Su-25 *without* armament, if the pilot was using oxygen?

Maybe about 7000m

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 247):
You'd be imaging through a LOT of atmosphere to have such a pronounced angle from space...

Sure but, if google maps can do it...  
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5908
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 6

Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 250):
google maps can do it...

Google Maps/ Google Earth doesn't have those angles. Plus, as mentioned above - photos with that resolution/ detail are almost always aerial photography, not actually from a satellite.

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