Whose DC-8? (Kennedy Airport 1966)

timz · Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:52 pm

Says Sept 1966-- whose DC-8 on the taxiway beyond BOAC's fin?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/horner/1192452519/sizes/l

BoeingGuy · Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:58 pm

I'm pretty sure that is AM. That's my vote.

LAXintl · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:07 pm

Looks like Alitalia from that circa.

=

flyTPA · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:18 pm

I vote for AZ

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Alitalia/Douglas-DC-8-43/2196295/

BoeingGuy · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:34 pm

I agree with AZ for the one to the right. I thought he meant the DC-8 that is partially covered by BOAC's fin. "Beyond", as in behind BOAC in the direction we are looking. That airplane is AM, I'm pretty sure.

MD80Nut · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:47 pm

Yeah, you can see the slightest suggestion of Alitalia's tri-color tail.

I see a KLM DC-8 to the right of the people. My only KLM flight was in one of those Aruba-CCS back in '68.

Lots of great early-mid 60s metal in that picture. Sweet!

Cheers, Ralph

ghost77 · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:49 pm

I think the DC-8 beyond BOAC 707 is a Pan American DC-8.

g77

MD80Nut · Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 6):
I think the DC-8 beyond BOAC 707 is a Pan American DC-8.

Good eye. The nose sure says DC-8.

Cheers, Ralph

BoeingGuy · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:03 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 7):
Quoting ghost77 (Reply 6):
I think the DC-8 beyond BOAC 707 is a Pan American DC-8.

Good eye. The nose sure says DC-8.

The logo on the tail doesn't look dark enough to be the Pan Am blue globe. I re-looked at a photo of an old AM DC-8 and still believe it's that.

Viscount724 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:06 am

Agree, AZ DC-8-43 on right and Pan Am DC-8-33 on left. AZ one of only 3 customers (and the largest with 15) for the R-R Conway-powered DC-8-40 series. Others AC (then TCA) with 11 and Canadian Pacific with 6.

jfk777 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:10 am

Alitalia in the prevous paint scheme before the "A" they have used for 30 plus years now.

jetstar · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:19 am

It looks the picture the OP posted was taken at the international Arrivals terminal at JFK.

JetStar

Tomassjc · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:29 am

The more I look at it, I'm thinking that the DC-8 on the left is PA and not AM. The way the white sweeps downward and lack of AM eagle towards the nose. .

Viscount724 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Alitalia in the prevous paint scheme before the "A" they have used for 30 plus years now.

Almost 45 years, very early 1970s if not slightly earlier, not counting the changes made a few years ago (cheatline moved down below the windows, name in Italics, and a few other minor adjustments)

This photo at FCO dated April 23, 1970 coincidentally includes 2 of the 3 Rolls-Royce Conway DC-8 operators (CP Air DC-8-43 in background).

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Photo © Spotnap

Caravelle, dated May 3, 1970

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Photo © R.A.Scholefield

oneskyjet · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:36 am

Actually, Im pretty certain the DC-8 abve the BOAC 707 is an Iberia DC-8 with the yellow globe tail logo that IB used in the early 70s.

TW870 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Agree, AZ DC-8-43 on right and Pan Am DC-8-33 on left.

Same here. The DC-8 on the right is hands down Alitalia, but the one on the left behind the 707-436's fin is a little harder to tell. I just think the cheat line is too dark to be Aeromexico. Plus, there is no sign of the orange at the top of the tail that I think every AM color scheme had. I think that is the blue ball of Pan Am on the tail.

Tough to tell from the schedule, as AM came in at 16:45 and left at 19:00 for MEX - which would be just about when AZ and BOAC were on the ground. From timetableimages.com:

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/am/am66/am66-3.jpg

Either way, I think that scheme is clearly PA.

Viscount724 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting Reply 14):
Actually, Im pretty certain the DC-8 abve the BOAC 707 is an Iberia DC-8 with the yellow globe tail logo that IB used in the early 70s.

Except the photo is dated 1966 when IB's DC-8 livery looked like this (no yellow globe on the tail until about 1969). And even in that fuzzy photo you would see the horizontal stripe near the top of the tail.

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Photo © Mel Lawrence

The "globe" on the tail is also in the correct position for Pan Am.

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Photo © Lars Söderström

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Photo © Bob Parrick

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:19 am

From left to right, I think it's Lufthansa, BOAC, Pan Am, Alitalia, KLM, then right close to the terminal, mostly hidden by the jetway, I can see TED, in the position of where United would be written on a fuselage.

Viscount724 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
then right close to the terminal, mostly hidden by the jetway, I can see TED, in the position of where United would be written on a fuselage.

I don't think that's UA, and why would they park on that side of the airport when they had their own terminal on the opposite side? They would only have to park there if arriving passengers had to clear customs/immigration and UA had no international routes in 1966 (except SEA-YVR).

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
They would only have to park there if arriving passengers had to clear customs/immigration and UA had no international routes in 1966 (except SEA-YVR).

I thought about that, but recall that UA did do military charter work in the 1960s.

bigz · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:36 am

big z says that looks like a World Airways paint job from the 1960's - it was very plain

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:03 am

My vote is for SAS. Blue SAS on the tail and the "Viking" cheat line are hard to discern.

kl5147 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):

I second that

spacecadet · Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:37 pm

I don't think that's a DC-8, I think it's a Convair 880. Tail is too wide in relation to the fuselage to be a DC-8, which has a relatively thin tail. I also think there's a very small black spot at the front of the nose that could be a blacked out nosecone (some airlines had a very small area of black on the nosecone on their 880's), and that could be making the nose look shorter than it is and more DC-8-like in this blurry photo.

Might help narrow down the airline, although none of the airlines I'm looking at that flew the 880 seem to match the livery either. Open up the "original" version at the source - the "globe" on the tail seems to have two "arms" on either side that point up towards the front and down towards the back of the tail. I can't find a tail that matches that on really any plane from that era.

Tomassjc · Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 23):
I don't think that's a DC-8, I think it's a Convair 880

Consensus is that it's a DC-8. (And one with Pan American titles)

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 23):
Open up the "original" version at the source - the "globe" on the tail seems to have two "arms" on either side that point up towards the front and down towards the back of the tail.

It's really hard to tell whether that's just dirt on the photo or part of the tail design. I also wouldn't fully trust colors in the photo—you can see a light blue blob in the right bottom section.

timz · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
mostly hidden by the jetway, I can see TED

They're Unitedy-looking letters, but no indication the first letter is T.

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 26):
They're Unitedy-looking letters, but no indication the first letter is T.

If you compare what I believe is a T to the top of what I believe is an E, you can barely make out the top bar of the E. It could be the same optics working on the T as well.

Which other airline of the era had IED or TED in block capitals as part of their livery, and would be at JFK?

ExL10Mktg · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:42 pm

My first thought about the taxiing DC-8 was SAS (the two at IAB are clearly AZ and KL) but the blur on the tail is too large for SK. The only thing that fits is PA. Also, the blue appears to go all the way up to the cockpit window which is consistent with PA. SK's Viking Head veers away long before.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-A...d=eaa6d22875e4ad423fa36d60ab885ae6

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Scand...d=8e37a6aa7929acde7d47116744ed92e4

timz · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:43 pm

All three letters are uncertain-- can't even say for sure the third letter is a letter.

lijnden · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:46 pm

I think it is a AM DC-8. I tried to blow up the picture a little and that is what I think. I do not think it is a Pan American because they were almost always parked at the gates.

timz · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:48 pm

Except when they weren't parked, you mean. The mystery DC-8 is on the taxiway.

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 29):
All three letters are uncertain-- can't even say for sure the third letter is a letter.

Well, you asked for opinions. I gave you mine.

Tomassjc · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting lijnden (Reply 30):
I do not think it is a Pan American because they were almost always parked at the gates.

I believe it's taxiing past the terminal....

BoeingGuy · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting lijnden (Reply 30):
I think it is a AM DC-8. I tried to blow up the picture a little and that is what I think. I do not think it is a Pan American because they were almost always parked at the gates.

I agree totally. The logo on the tail is not dark enough to be PA. I've posted that earlier. You're the only one who yet agrees it's AM.

ghost77 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:57 pm

That DC-8 could never be an AM's machine, since the one in the photo has a dark blue solid round logo instead of the light orange non-solid one at the AM's tail, as well as its orange fin:

g77

[Edited 2014-07-22 11:58:44]

spacecadet · Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 24):
Consensus is that it's a DC-8. (And one with Pan American titles)

Welp, it's settled then. May as well just close the thread if we're all in agreement. :

Here's a photo of a Pan Am DC-8 from the same angle: http://www.bcoolidge.com/Aircraft%20...8%20Taxiing%20at%20Boston_3_70.jpg

Globe is the wrong size and there are missing graphic elements around the globe. I'll grant that Pan Am is the closest fit of any of the likely suspects, but even with a photo this blurry, it's a hard sell. The tail just looks wrong when you look at the pic's "original" size.

It's one of those things that nobody's ever going to be able to prove one way or another on the basis of a pic like this, though.

oneskyjet · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:13 pm

The plane behind the people is not United. I believe it is Loftleidir Icelandic.

babaero · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:17 pm

http://jonproctor.net/new-york-city-through-the-years/

try this link and scroll down, sure is PAN AM the other DC8

ghost77 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:16 pm

Quoting Reply 37):
The plane behind the people is not United. I believe it is Loftleidir Icelandic.

Well, the font is similar, but the bird in the photo seems to be a 707, and Loftleidir Icelandic didn't flew them; they had DC-8s:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lines_Douglas_DC-8-63CF_Haafke.jpg

g77

timz · Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 39):
the [mostly-hidden] bird in the photo seems to be a 707

Why?

Tomassjc · Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):
Welp, it's settled then. May as well just close the thread if we're all in agreement.

Sorry if I came across as snippy.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):
Globe is the wrong size and there are missing graphic elements around the globe

I agree, but could it just appear smaller due to the quality of the photo?

Tom in SJC

AeroWesty · Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 40):
Quoting ghost77 (Reply 39):
the [mostly-hidden] bird in the photo seems to be a 707

Why?

The tail join to the fuselage is much more 707/720-ish rather than the long swoop of a DC-8.

ghost77 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
The tail join to the fuselage is much more 707/720-ish rather than the long swoop of a DC-8.

I agree.

g77

[Edited 2014-07-23 14:47:59]

longhauler · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):

The tail join to the fuselage is much more 707/720-ish rather than the long swoop of a DC-8.

Also, the top of the fuselage slopes down with the tail join on the B707/B720, but remains level on the DC-8.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 39):
Well, the font is similar, but the bird in the photo seems to be a 707, and Loftleidir Icelandic didn't flew them; they had DC-8s:

Not to mention, Loftleider was still flying CL-44s across the Atlantic in 1966. Also, it would be spelled wrong EI instead of IE.

So ... whose B707/B720 is that? Not likely to be United, as that doesn't look like a T.

zippyjet · Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:05 am

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Believe it or not Panagra's final livery before absorption by
Branniff in 1966 looked a bit like AZ which looked interestingly enough to the Douglas company logo for their DC-8's.

oneskyjet · Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:09 pm

I guess the only possibility then ins a United 720.
Seems very unlikely that is would have been parked in front of the IAB, however.

Viscount724 · Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting Reply 46):
I guess the only possibility then ins a United 720.

The 3 letters (if that's what they are) on the forward fuselage seem too far apart to match the UA livery. The fuselage also looks a bit too long for a 720.

This was UA's 720 livery then:

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oneskyjet · Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:36 pm

Looks like the 707 behind the people might be a Caledonian 707.
I believe they may have operated an earlier version of the attached photo with a white tail with a yellow lion.

timz · Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:17 pm

That's the best theory yet. In addition to the white fin, we'll need to move the "CALEDONIAN" aftward-- on the 707 above "LED" is too far ahead of the fin, compared to the mystery aircraft.

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