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COEWR787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:18 pm

Why Syria? Aren't there any other possible routes in the whole wide world?
 
PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 45):
Dutch PM Mark Rutte just gave another short statement to reporters and mentioned that Ukraine has turned over the intestigation lead to the Netherlands. The FDR and CVR were on board the train with the pax' remains and are now in Charkov.

Is the NTSB going to join this at all?
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PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting AVLnative (Reply 44):

This article has some interesting thoughts

All what is quoted under "They will not report" has been reported in western media. There is nothing interesting in this article and it is indeed biased.

More and more Information emerges that confirms that the aircraft was shot down by a Russian Missile. The CVR and FR are with the Dutch authorities, I don't know where the devices will be read out, may be in Cologne but likely in Washington.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Is the NTSB going to join this at all?

I read a couple of days ago that NTSB intended to send staff to Ukraine.

Quote:
The NTSB will send 1+ investigator to Ukraine. Details TBD. Response will
be guided by events as they unfold. #MH17

https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/490137511122190336

[Edited 2014-07-22 06:41:54]
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
was shot down by a Russian Missile

Everything points into the direction that it was indeed a missile built in the territory which is now "Russia".
So called Russian missiles are owned by the Ukrainian Government and other governments which are buying from Russia military equipment. Germany is number 4 Worldwide in exporting weapons, but is our government now responsible for every person in the world killed by a German built weapon ?
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Severnaya
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
The CVR and FR are with the Dutch authorities, I don't know where the devices will be read out, may be in Cologne but likely in Washington.

They will go to the AAIB in Farnborough according to Dutch news reports.

[Edited 2014-07-22 07:48:41]
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PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:32 pm

@Delta777jet

you are correct that Germany is the #4 exporter for defense products. It is Quality over quantity that gets us there. Export licenses are granted only after certain criteria have been met by the receiving Country.

Such criteria should include that the weapons do not fall into the hands of insurgents of a self proclaimed and factually not existing "state". The insurgents are illegal under international law and all relating conventions and someone seems to have supplied them with sophistocated material they could obviously not properly handle.

That is exactly the difference between legal exports of defense products and illegally and in negligence leaving such Equipment to People who use it to commit 300 fold mass murder. Intentionally or not does not matter in this case.

..
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 57):
only to retract pull that ststement off their website when they discovered it was, indeed, a civilian airliner.

Was that statement on the official website or on some kind of Twitter ? Anyone can create a twitter account, point some people to it and then delete it. I'm sure that the eye witness who wrote this, would have other things to do then immediately write on twitter about it.

Anyways as we see now, the only one who get blamed for this is Russia and Putin and because of this reason it is very unlikely that Russia or Putin is behind it, because what happened its simply not his interest. If it was shot down by the East Ukrainians then this was probably a mistake. Whatever will be found out later on, now, as all this European, innocent people died and with all the emotions of the European people involved it will be possible that the EU will agree on more though sanctions shortly and to follow the U.S. proposal in regards of sanctioning Russia and punish Putin and we will all be fine. This approach they should have initially already followed and we could have saved MH 17 and the loss of live.
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:13 pm

Well for what it is worth and i dont know if it is 100% true, but a dutch newspaper reports that an rebel gave an anonymous interview to an italian newspaper and confessed that they shot down the plane. People from a higher level told the rebels it was an ukrainian plane. But at the scene they discovered bodies of children and other people, then they knew.

link in dutch:

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/31544/Neerges...bekent-neerhalen-vlucht-MH17.dhtml


and in italian:

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/14_lug...-115f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml
 
DUSdude
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 19):

I am not sure whether a Buk can detect the altitude of an aircraft it is targeting, but if it can, then the Ukrainian ATC instruction for MH17 to descend to from FL350 to FL330 could have been the signal for the Ukranians on the ground to shoot it down.

There was no instruction to descend to FL330. There was a request by MH17 to climb to FL350 that was not granted, AFAIK. Completely different scenario. Aircraft never reached FL350, so there was no descent.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 58):
Anyways as we see now, the only one who get blamed for this is Russia and Putin and because of this reason it is very unlikely that Russia or Putin is behind it, because what happened its simply not his interest. If it was shot down by the East Ukrainians then this was probably a mistake.

It has become clear (to any unbiased observer, I believe) that it was shot down by separatists, whio thought they were shooting down a Ukranian military plane. It definitely was a mistake - a tragic mistake, enable by Putin's decision to send his Russian commanders (previously battle-tested in Chechnya) to lead the pro-Russian separatists, to arm them with lethal weapons, and to train them how to use them.

There is no question the missile was fired from rebel-held territory; that alone should be enough to convince non-biased observers of who the perpetrators must be. Anyone else is looking for an excuse to promulgate propaganda, falsehoods, and/or conspiracy theories. Those may be fun to watch in movies, but it is pathetic to see them applied to this tragedy.
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tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:20 pm

Also interesting:

Geolocation of "Missile Plume", published yesterday: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014...-location-detected-of-missile.html

Just from CNNs Twitter: http://twitter.com/barbarastarrcnn/status/491559153559932928/photo/1

And does everyone remember the picture of the BUK TELAR?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ee_1405625074

Uooops.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:29 pm

Ugh...

Anti-Russian propaganda rages. It’s intense. It rages daily. It’s unprecedented. It exceeds the worst of Cold War vitriol. Malicious misinformation persists.

Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.

right, CIA smuggeled an BUK Telar into SNIZHNE to have people take pictures of it and post them on the Internet, w/o anyone noticing, fired some sort of missile from there (well, or photoshoped the pictures) again with no-one noticing, and agents with ice picks made sure that the wreckage matches the damage you´d expect to see after a missile hit from that location....... makes sense.
When i see OSZE people give an interview on German TV, i can still hear what they say in English in the background, when i see them on Russia Today the voice over completely blocks out the English and i wonder how everything he supposedly said would fit into the short interview...

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Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Is the NTSB going to join this at all?

Looks like the recorders will be handled by the UK's AAIB at the request of the Dutch.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28424115

Quote:
British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

This follows a request by authorities in the Netherlands, where the Malaysia Airlines plane flew from before crashing in Ukraine.

The experts, based at Farnborough, will download data from the flight recorders for "international analysis".
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:59 pm

With all due respect, the U.K. does not appear to be a neutral side in any imaginable way.
Well, let's hope that... whatever!

We Russians are fatalists.
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 66):

With all due respect, the U.K. does not appear to be a neutral side in any imaginable way.
Well, let's hope that... whatever

Dont expect anything important from those transcripts. Its quite logical that the rocket did not introduce herself to the pilots as a Russian missile.

So far, except the social media postings, there is no hard evidence of anything except that Russia yesterday published the radar image of flight MH 17 and there was a fighter jet next to it until the moment it crashed. Nobody else bring any other evidence forward until now, which proof what really happened.
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.

Only ones trying to bury the truth are pro Russian separatists who shot the plane down & their Kremlin overlords.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 67):
So far, except the social media postings, there is no hard evidence of anything except that Russia yesterday published the radar image of flight MH 17 and there was a fighter jet next to it until the moment it crashed.

A Su-25, that is no fighter, its a CAS plane, that couldn´t shoot down the 777 if it wanted to. And i do´t see how that is any harder evidence then then the information the USA have given. The pictures of the wreckage however speak volumes.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Marcus
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Ugh...

Anti-Russian propaganda rages. It’s intense. It rages daily. It’s unprecedented. It exceeds the worst of Cold War vitriol. Malicious misinformation persists.

Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.

Yes, that is why I avoid RT, Granma, Pravda, FOX news, TV Sur, Televisa, Univision, etc.....I'm more BBC, NPR, PBS, DW, NYT, WP, TF1, Reuters.   

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-eastern-europe.php

[Edited 2014-07-22 09:15:59]
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:16 pm

If the Russian MoD said yesterday that SU-25 can reach 10,000 and stay at that altitude for a short period of time, I would assume they knew what they were saying.
No?
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tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 71):
If the Russian MoD said yesterday that SU-25 can reach 10,000 and stay at that altitude for a short period of time, I would assume they knew what they were saying.
No?

As long that the manufacturer states otherwise i am not going to believe it for a minute. How a 400km/h (russian data) aircraft right in the very edge of the coffin corner of its flight envelope and without a Radar should make a merge with a Boeing going more than twice as fast and bring it down despite not having the right weapons for it.. that is a real mystery.

In fact the Russian didn´t say it did. They just reported two completely unrelated events in the same presentation, knowing that enough people would jump to the stupid conclusion they want them to have.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:22 pm

Sorry, Marcus. As a "Washington Post" subscriber since the 1996, I can tell you should seriously re-assess your choice.

You know what? Try opening your Yahoo at a slow traffic time - at late night or very early in the morning.
Some unexpectedly interesting sources appear there - and disappear later.
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 66):
With all due respect, the U.K. does not appear to be a neutral side in any imaginable way.

Provide one shred of evidence that the AAIB is anything other than a totally independent, non-political, highly professional and highly respected body.   
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2175301
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 71):
If the Russian MoD said yesterday that SU-25 can reach 10,000 and stay at that altitude for a short period of time, I would assume they knew what they were saying.
No?

There is a big difference between "knowing what they said" and "telling the truth"

To use an analogy - Medical Doctors often know the truth in a terminal life situation; and they know exactly what they tell the patient - and they also know in almost all cases what they tell the patient is not the truth.

Now I can excuse intentional lying in such a case as the Doctor is also concerned with the mental health of the patient (and the patient will die a more peaceful death if they don't know the exact situation). But, not in a case like this.

The entire story would be much different if they admitted that the Pro-Russian Separatists shot down the aircraft, and that it was a mistake. Politically it would go over much better world wide. But, there is a long culture in Russia (and some other countries) to never admit mistakes.

It is all very unfortunate.

Have a great day,
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 75):
The entire story would be much different if they admitted that the Pro-Russian Separatists shot down the aircraft, and that it was a mistake. Politically it would go over much better world wide. But, there is a long culture in Russia (and some other countries) to never admit mistakes.

Indeed. In addition, it would be difficult for the US to demand disciplinary action for the rebels, as Iran Air Flight 655 which US Navy shot down by mistake in very similar circumstances without the crew being disciplined.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 57):
More bull(manure)

Would you mind watching your language a bit?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 61):
There is no question the missile was fired from rebel-held territory

And you know this how? You were there, watching over rebels' shoulders?

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 67):
So far, except the social media postings, there is no hard evidence of anything except that Russia yesterday published the radar image of flight MH 17 and there was a fighter jet next to it until the moment it crashed. Nobody else bring any other evidence forward until now, which proof what really happened.

Exactly. We only heard assumptions and wishes by many, but saw hardly any evidence.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 69):
A Su-25, that is no fighter, its a CAS plane, that couldn´t shoot down the 777 if it wanted to. And i do´t see how that is any harder evidence then then the information the USA have given.

What have the USA provided except a lot of propaganda of which it accuses Russia? Who said that Su-25 shot MH17? The only question Russian MoD raised was what was a Su-25 doing in the vicinity? And did really Su-25 have to be at 33000 feet to fire an air-to-air missile? I guess those missiles can fly up, but again, I haven't seen anything suggesting this 777 was shot by a Su-25.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
DrColenzo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 74):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 66):
With all due respect, the U.K. does not appear to be a neutral side in any imaginable way.

Provide one shred of evidence that the AAIB is anything other than a totally independent, non-political, highly professional and highly respected body.

I agree.

Show some objectivity here Pylon 101; there is a wealth of empirical and verified evidence coming from a wide range of sources and nations suggesting that MH17 was shot down by a missile fired from within the Ukraine territory under the control of a number of separate groups that appear not to be talking to one another but are allied with Russia.

That is being proven by the balance of probabilities in the legal sense and once satellite and radar data are released, combined with analysis of the explosive residue that will most likely found on the bodies of the victims and the structural damage of the airframe, it will be beyond reasonable doubt.

Who will is ultimately responsible, the rebels or the Kremlin is yet to be proven as there is no verifiable evidence yet found to show who is to blame.

I love Russia and Russians, who have been my closest and most trusted friends and colleagues; you may find that they and those I have met recently on business in Russia are not of the same mind as yourself, the official media or the Kremlin on this matter and are, in fact, deeply ashamed as the many square meters of flowers laid outside the Dutch and Malaysian embassies demonstrate. Indeed, those flowers are an empirical fact and if you are in Moscow, take a walk and have a look at what ordinary Russians feel about MH17.

It is a very bold statement to accuse governments, investigative organisations and citizens in a wide range of countries - some of which are close to one another some of which are not- of a wide ranging conspiracy to discredit Vladimir Putin -NOT RUSSIA - by using the tragedy of MH17 as a political tool. In fact, it is nonsense to do so.

The Russian people are facing economic hardship and will now face even worse because of Putin's paranoid and expansionist regime, a regime that history has shown will ultimately fail and will also fail the citizens it claims to protect and, as someone who remembers 1989 - 1991 very well, the smart, honest and hardworking Russian people punish those in the Kremlin who make them poorer and weaker through the stupidity of the political classes.
 
jmp367
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Anti-Russian propaganda rages. It’s intense. It rages daily. It’s unprecedented. It exceeds the worst of Cold War vitriol. Malicious misinformation persists.

Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.

You mean like Putin and Russia's version of the "truth"? Such as how the Russian government is editing the MH17 Wikipedia page ( http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/gove...h17-on-ukraine-20140719-zurmd.html ) to tell its version of the "truth" and shift the blame to the Ukrainian government? It's ironic that Russia has a newspaper and news service called "Pravda", or is it?

[Edited 2014-07-22 10:31:52]
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:32 pm

Doctor, you went well beyond the subject.
And we appear to have different views as consider Putin the only decent politician since PM Stolypin.
However, it is for another discussion.

Let's see what evidence will be taken, or emerge.
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enilria
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
What have the USA provided except a lot of propaganda of which it accuses Russia? Who said that Su-25 shot MH17? The only question Russian MoD raised was what was a Su-25 doing in the vicinity? And did really Su-25 have to be at 33000 feet to fire an air-to-air missile? I guess those missiles can fly up, but again, I haven't seen anything suggesting this 777 was shot by a Su-25.

I think another theory that is growing provides a better explanation. Listen to the NoAgendaPodCast from Sunday:
http://mp3s.nashownotes.com/NA-636-2014-07-20-Final.mp3
Goto 1:09:00 and listen until 1:14:05. Tell me what you think of that. You can google articles from Reuters and other Europe news about the NATO exercise mentioned.

I suppose at its crux, it wouldn't change the fact that Ukraine rebels still shot down MH17, but it does explain other things.

[Edited 2014-07-22 10:39:49]
 
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 80):

Gosh u get more and more naïve the longer this threat gets. Are u really that blind to admit Russia has something to do with this attack?


Anyways the soap and disgrace continues cause dutch newspapers are reporting that there are LESS bodies in the train then that the rebels said there were. Around 200 bodies are in the train instead of the 282! What a shame and it shows us again that there is no respect at all, from the rebels and from Russia, cause its damn quiet there in Moscow.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 28):

Ugh. You're right. Then one can safely publish the CVR recording as an audio file as it does not divulge any "conversations in the face of death", but the sheer, sudden carnage.

In the reader comment section of http://www.zeit.de the Russian fanboys are raging. Despite only about 5 or 10% of the German citizen are openly in favor of the current Russian politics, about 40% of the reader comments are written by people sympathetic to Mr. Putin.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Mir
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
The only question Russian MoD raised was what was a Su-25 doing in the vicinity?

Are we really asking what a Ukrainian aircraft was doing flying over Ukraine?

-Mir
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Aesma
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 82):
Gosh u get more and more naïve the longer this threat gets. Are u really that blind to admit Russia has something to do with this attack?

Anyways the soap and disgrace continues cause dutch newspapers are reporting that there are LESS bodies in the train then that the rebels said there were. Around 200 bodies are in the train instead of the 282! What a shame and it shows us again that there is no respect at all, from the rebels and from Russia, cause its damn quiet there in Moscow.

I read higher in the thread that there were 282 + parts of 16 bodies aka everyone in the plane, I found that hard to believe, I guess I was right. Nobody bothered to really count I'm sure.
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tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:30 pm

This is an admission of Russian guilt by their actions.

"the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separates."

"The monitors said said large parts of the cockpit -- and every part of the fuselage -- were carried off"



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...raine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/
 
Halophila
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:33 pm

First, I want to express how sorry I am for the passengers, crew, and families on board MH17. As someone who spends a significant amount of time at 30,000+ ft, this one really caused a lot of personal distress. I am shocked, saddened, and disgusted.

I wanted to ask a physics question (with no disrespect intended to the victims). I'm a biologist but not a physicist, and was curious about trajectory and speed of the crash. The plane was traveling at an altitude of 10,000m at a speed of approx. 925 km/hr (which equates to 15 km/min or 256 m/s). Can anyone calculate the trajectory / projected distance traveled by a non-powered object (assuming here engines cut out immediately - so this would be conservative) to fall on an arc traveling at this speed from this height?

Clearly there would be other factors involved - for example, downward powered flight / deflection, etc. But assuming this is an object traveling at the speed it is and height it should be possible to calculate horizontal distance to ground. Let's assume a mass of 297,550 kg.

Many thanks in advance

Halophila
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bikerthai
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 84):
Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
The only question Russian MoD raised was what was a Su-25 doing in the vicinity?

Are we really asking what a Ukrainian aircraft was doing flying over Ukraine?

-Mir

No, I think the MoD was asking how did the Su-25 got in the vicinity without being shot down by Russian Air Cover 

bt (sarcasm intended)
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
chiad
Posts: 1345
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 82):
Are u really that blind to admit Russia has something to do with this attack?

I for my part can imagine that this is a plot to revenge/hurt Russia and its economy.

As this is a war of propaganda I think it's really important check and double check all the info preferably from news agencies in contries that has "nothing" to gain from this conflict.

And also if you "wish" for the blame to point somewhere then you should try to "reset" yourself, especially if you seek the truth.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting Halophila (Reply 87):

The computer says... NOOOO.  

Impossible to calculate, as the 777 was already in pieces while still having altitude. And an airplane is not a "dense" body - the debris, as shown on the pictures, are large chunks without much inertia. They act like parachutes when falling down. You could calculate a trajectory of the stuff with high inertia but yet low air resistance - e.g. landing gear, engines or hydraulic jacks, but certainly not hull parts, the floor or the wings.

And then, according to the pictures the engines and the main landing gear was found where most of the fuel burned. This means, parts relevant for calculating a trajectory were still with the fuselage, making the calculation of the trajectory impossible to begin with.

(In fact, the FDR of the Tornado fighter jet is detached from the aircraft, and due to its shape, glides to the ground. In an in-flight breakup, the debris will arrive on the ground first, followed by the FDR, and then followed - hopefully - by the crew under their parachutes.)


Regards from another biologist,

David


Edit: Some changes, because mass and density of the various debris doesn't play a role at all, but rather inertia and air resistance would.

[Edited 2014-07-22 11:52:16]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting Halophila (Reply 87):
Clearly there would be other factors involved - for example, downward powered flight / deflection, etc. But assuming this is an object traveling at the speed it is and height it should be possible to calculate horizontal distance to ground. Let's assume a mass of 297,550 kg.

The mass doesn't matter, as all bodies experience the same acceleration of 9,81 m/s² towards earth due to earth's gravitation... however, in atmosphere, different shaped objects experience different amounts of drag decelarating their horizontal & vertical movement, so the horizontal distance is not easy to calculate.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:51 pm

It seems impossible to know what aerodynamic forces affected the wreckage on its way down.

The engine / fuselage section that came down at Hrabove were almost six miles north of the Airway L980 centerline.

[Edited 2014-07-22 11:52:53]
 
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EVAAIRBR076
Posts: 88
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting chiad (Reply 89):

Yes u are right but i didnt say i blame just russia, i know a dirty political game is played between several countries. I do read both sides and different newspapers, also russians, and also i am open mindend what eventually caused this but this person i quoted denies everything if fingers are pointed to russia.
 
Mitico12
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:15 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:58 pm

With regards to the black boxes, can someone with technical expertise shed some light on: IF the rebels or whoever was in control of the boxes could have replaced the data with their own to make it seem as if the airplane was behaving the way they wish to portray it?
 
karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
And did really Su-25 have to be at 33000 feet to fire an air-to-air missile?
Quoting Mir (Reply 84):
Are we really asking what a Ukrainian aircraft was doing flying over Ukraine?
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 88):
No, I think the MoD was asking how did the Su-25 got in the vicinity without being shot down by Russian Air Cover

What was absurd was that the Russians claims this jet was at 10,000 meters when the maximum ceiling it can reach with loaded armaments is 5,000 meters or 7,000 meters without armaments. The Russian MoD specifically singled out the Su-25 and not other planes such as the Su-27 which has a maximum ceiling of 19,000 meters. The reason for this is I'm guessing their "evidence" states that the RCS of the plane matched that of an Su-25 and not an Su-27. I wouldn't be surprised if they revised their statement to say "Oh what we really meant was a Su-27 or a Mig 29".

So this is making the rounds as well.
http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2014/0...-pin-the-blame-on-the-wrong-plane/
 
alfa164
Posts: 3772
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Ugh...

Anti-Russian propaganda rages. It’s intense. It rages daily. It’s unprecedented. It exceeds the worst of Cold War vitriol. Malicious misinformation persists.
Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.

What you call "Anti-Russian propaganda" the rest of the world know as "facts". How can you be so determined to ignore them?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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EVAAIRBR076
Posts: 88
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:08 pm

For those who are interested, a dutch news reporter made some intresting and impressing photoshoots at the crash site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645853477595/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645416293108/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 23):
If the Russians saw the SU25 on radar, then hopefully Kiev / the US did too and it can be proved.

Precisely. During the MoD presentation Russia specifically reached out to the USA to provide any satellite or other info they may have to help confirm all this. Why would Russia ask the USA to verify their claims if they are trying to lie about it? And especially since they know the USA can probably verify it too? Russia know the USA had a satellite over Ukraine during the accident and they know an AWACS is always patriolling close to the area. If there was a Ukrainian military plane in the vicinity of MH17, then Russia is asking USA to verify their own findings. The same goes for the satellite photos of the Buks.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 61):
a tragic mistake, enable by Putin's decision to send his Russian commanders (previously battle-tested in Chechnya) to lead the pro-Russian separatists, to arm them with lethal weapons, and to train them how to use them.

None of what you wrote has been verified, nor is there hard evidence. Are there Russians helping the rebels? Most likely yes. Are they doing all the rest of what you said? Unknown. Were they in Chechnya before? Even more uknown, there's no way you can say that is a fact. Be objective, don't make wild assumptions especially with such detail.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 71):
If the Russian MoD said yesterday that SU-25 can reach 10,000 and stay at that altitude for a short period of time, I would assume they knew what they were saying.

They didn't say the aircraft (claimed to be Su-25) ever reached 10,000m. They said that it was higher than 5,000m.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 72):
As long that the manufacturer states otherwise i am not going to believe it for a minute. How a 400km/h (russian data) aircraft right in the very edge of the coffin corner of its flight envelope and without a Radar should make a merge with a Boeing going more than twice as fast and bring it down despite not having the right weapons for it.. that is a real mystery.



That was never claimed. The presentation didn't point a finger at Ukraine or the rebels. It mentioned what was in the area but not its intention (military aircraft, Buk launchers) and it didn't say who operated the Buks.

[quote=tommy1808,reply=72]In fact the Russian didn´t say it did. They just reported two completely unrelated events in the same presentation, knowing that enough people would jump to the stupid conclusion they want them to have.

Exactly. No conclusions. This is why I think the briefing has some credibility. And the fact that it asks the USA to verify. If it was propaganda it would squarely blame Ukraine.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 94):
What was absurd was that the Russians claims this jet was at 10,000 meters when the maximum ceiling it can reach with loaded armaments is 5,000 meters or 7,000 meters without armaments.

Again, the 10,000m part was not claimed.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 96):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645416293108/

Interesting to see Berkut soldiers there on site. So much for being situated only in Crimea/Russia.

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