karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 98):
Again, the 10,000m part was not claimed.
https://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=76276&filename=php3VtZIM.png
This begs to differ.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
What have the USA provided except a lot of propaganda of which it accuses Russia?

The provided a graphical presentation of their radar data. Which happens to be exactly what Russia provided. Only that the US actually tracked the missile and not two aircraft that had absolutely nothing to do with each other aside of being in some proximity...

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
Who said that Su-25 shot MH17?

No one, they implied it and it seems lots of people are falling for it. There is no reason to put this completely unrelated track into the presentation.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
The only question Russian MoD raised was what was a Su-25 doing in the vicinity?

They are really asking what a ground attack aircraft is doing in an active war zone that has seen ongoing combat on the ground for the last couple of weeks? Wow, i never took Russians for stupid... Amazing how creative the Ukraine is using its assets, isn´t it?

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
And did really Su-25 have to be at 33000 feet to fire an air-to-air missile?

Nope, it doesn´t have to. But it should be at least be reasonably expected to be able to make the merge and carry weapons that can lock on and catch the aircraft, doubtful for AA-2s and AA-8 with their limited kinetics and simple sensors. Oh, and weapons that have a large enough warhead to cause damage more or less all over the aircraft.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 77):
but again, I haven't seen anything suggesting this 777 was shot by a Su-25.

There is no reason to put the SU-25 into the presentation other than implying it had something to do with the shot-down. And it works, why else would the Su-25 come up all the time in the discussion of the MH17 shot-down.

The damage to the airframe makes it quite obvious that a large fragmentation warhead detonated in front and below the aircraft. In that direction there isn´t much more than pro-russian troops held territory and Russia. There are pretty much only indicators implying an accidental shot-down by separatists and no indicators implying anyone else. I don´t see much need to discuss who fired the missile that brought the Boeing down.

Aside, the notion of the Ukraine Government shooting it down, that, as they had lots of Radar and ATC Information and would have needed to fake some evidence in advance, would have been a deliberate act, instead of rebells accidentally shooting at it, is a racist as it can get.

best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 97):
Exactly. No conclusions. This is why I think the briefing has some credibility. And the fact that it asks the USA to verify. If it was propaganda it would squarely blame Ukraine.

That would be way to obvious. As we can clearly see in this thread, people keep bringing up the Su-25, which was a) to be expected in that zone and b) has nothing to do with MH17. It works perfectly well, there is no reason to mention it at all in this thread.

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Thomas
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 100):
https://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=76276&filename=php3VtZIM.png
This begs to differ.

Interesting... however what they SAY during the briefing is that altitude could not be determined because there was no transponder and it was just a blip on primery radar (which only registers above 5000m)

I'm more confused why they use a 707 and EF-111 icons to represent a 777 and Su-25  
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 98):
Again, the 10,000m part was not claimed.

It was, twice - in the diagram and in the video.

The diagram used by the MOD clearly shows the 'mystery military plane' at 10,000m.

In the following video, between 5:20 and 5:30 the question is asked "What was a military plane doing flying at the same altitude as a civilian jet?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHZyrYhFiI8

Oh dear.
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 104):
In the following video, between 5:20 and 5:30 the question is asked "What was a military plane doing flying at the same altitude as a civilian jet?"

Listen closely, they say "what was a military aircraft doing on a route intended for civilian planes, flying at almost the same time and same altitude..." - those are the exact words, keyword ALMOST

Although if we are getting into semantics, I watched the original briefing in Russian. This is translated into English.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting Marcus (Reply 70):

Yes, that is why I avoid RT, Granma, Pravda, FOX news, TV Sur, Televisa, Univision, etc.....I'm more BBC, NPR, PBS, DW, NYT, WP, TF1, Reuters.

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-eastern-...e.php
Quoting Marcus (Reply 69):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 63):
Ugh...

Anti-Russian propaganda rages. It’s intense. It rages daily. It’s unprecedented. It exceeds the worst of Cold War vitriol. Malicious misinformation persists.

Truth is systematically buried. It’s turned on its head. Lies, damn lies.


Yes, that is why I avoid RT, Granma, Pravda, FOX news, TV Sur, Televisa, Univision, etc.....I'm more BBC, NPR, PBS, DW, NYT, WP, TF1, Reuters.

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-eastern-...e.php

        
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karadion
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 103):
Interesting...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6RwtvKHHFh...AAAAAIaE/8l-5I4gwqGo/s1600/RT1.jpg

Also in this image right here. If I'm correct, the plane they used is between Donetsk and Gorlovka and the 777 is slightly north of Torez at Hrabove (the last reported position). The Su-25 is over 4 miles away from the 777 and taken 4 minutes to intercept at the very least. The Su-25 doesn't have onboard radar so it has to literally have visual on the 777 directly and target it to shoot it down with AA. But the Russians doesn't report it close to the 777, just that at that distance away. Then the Su-25 argument becomes extremely irrelevant and comes down to coincidence.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
Listen closely, they say "what was a military aircraft doing on a route intended for civilian planes, flying at almost the same time and same altitude..." - those are the exact words, keyword ALMOST

The way that's written, the 'almost' would only apply to the time clause. If it applied to both it would be "at amost the same time and altitude". But, I accept we're talking about a translation.

What you can't deny is that the diagram clearly shows the Su-25 at 10,000m.
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JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 95):
What you call "Anti-Russian propaganda" the rest of the world know as "facts".

No. Even though you and I are probably suspecting the same guys, and might even share assumptions about who supports them - none of this can reasonably be called a "fact" at the moment.
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:57 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 101):
The provided a graphical presentation of their radar data. Which happens to be exactly what Russia provided. Only that the US actually tracked the missile and not two aircraft that had absolutely nothing to do with each other aside of being in some proximity...

The only very big question is why the US does not share the evidence with the public ? What is to hide if Russia is to blame anyway ? Why not then show the evidence so that everyone can see it how the Russian soldier fire the missile on the MH 16 ? If they show this, everyone could follow at least. Talking talking everyone can do. The U.S. did that in Iraq, Syria etc. no proof ever was provided and it turned out to be wrong.
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 108):

The way that's written, the 'almost' would only apply to the time clause. If it applied to both it would be "at amost the same time and altitude". But, I accept we're talking about a translation.

What you can't deny is that the diagram clearly shows the Su-25 at 10,000m.

OK, I see what you're saying. Either way, I don't want to scrutinize the words. In any case, the one I watched yesterday seemed to have more of a tone of "by coincidence we detected a ukrainian military aircraft in the vicinity of MH17".
 
Halophila
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 89):
And then, according to the pictures the engines and the main landing gear was found where most of the fuel burned. This means, parts relevant for calculating a trajectory were still with the fuselage, making the calculation of the trajectory impossible to begin with.

Thanks Flyingturtle - just trying to get my head around whether the plane would crash immediately below the point it was struck or debris would be projected kms away. I'm just surprised that something so fast and high would fall beneath where it was hit.
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BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
Are we really asking what a Ukrainian aircraft was doing flying over Ukraine?

Are we really trying to be painfully naïve and sarcastic?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 101):
They are really asking what a ground attack aircraft is doing in an active war zone that has seen ongoing combat on the ground for the last couple of weeks? Wow, i never took Russians for stupid... Amazing how creative the Ukraine is using its assets, isn´t it?

After Ukrainian government showed that fake video of a Buk system "crossing the Russian border", Russians have every right to ask the Su-25 question. I've seen first hand how fake information and accusations work to start a war.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 101):
There are pretty much only indicators implying an accidental shot-down by separatists and no indicators implying anyone else. I don´t see much need to discuss who fired the missile that brought the Boeing down.


I do see a need to discuss all options before we hear the results of an investigation. For the sake of a mental exercise, a Buk has a range of 35-40 km. That does not reach Russia, but is well within the territory controlled by Ukrainian forces. So at least two culprits might have fired it (Ukrainian forces or rebels). Why is it a sin in this thread to even suggest Ukrainians might have done it? I don't really see them as teddy bears in this conflict. They have some blood on their hands too.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 101):

Aside, the notion of the Ukraine Government shooting it down, that, as they had lots of Radar and ATC Information and would have needed to fake some evidence in advance, would have been a deliberate act, instead of rebells accidentally shooting at it, is a racist as it can get.


Racist? You know what that word means, right?
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 110):

The only very big question is why the US does not share the evidence with the public ?

Since i am not part of the US Government i am pretty sure they made it public, they only made it into a nicer picture than the Russians. But both are a representation of data, not data itself.

best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 113):

Racist? You know what that word means, right?

Yeah i do, its a stretch in this case, i know, but it still fits.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 113):
Russians have every right to ask the Su-25 question. I've seen first hand how fake information and accusations work to start a war.

Sure they can ask the question. In any other forum than one discussing MH17.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 113):
For the sake of a mental exercise, a Buk has a range of 35-40 km.

against a target that runs into it nice straight an level the range will be significantly higher. Oh, i never said Russia did fire a missile.. see how this works? 

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Thomas
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 113):
Why is it a sin in this thread to even suggest Ukrainians might have done it?

I think by now people aren't thinking the missile was fired from inside the actual country of Russia. I at the moment believe it was the rebels that did it by mistake, but since nothing has been certainly proven then this is also a possibility (that Ukraine did it). Let's face it, they shot down a Tu-154 13 years ago without there even being a war at the time. And they also have a questionable track record of using weapons in a smart manner. The way I see it there are two BIG questions for each of the two main theories:

1) If it was rebels, how did they obtain Buk and train to use it?
2) If it was Ukraine, why are they using anti air when the rebels have no aircraft?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 116):
Let's face it, they shot down a Tu-154 13 years ago without there even being a war at the time.

They hit a Tu-154 during an exercise and its still unclear if the aircraft did in fact stray into the no-fly zone for the test. And of cause the missile simply failed to self destruct. And those irresponsible airliner killing savaged had a 7 years test ban on longer range missiles after that..

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 116):
1) If it was rebels, how did they obtain Buk and train to use it?

Seriously? After overrunning a bunch of military installations you really have to ask this? And in a country that has the draft you really ask how they got training? Please don´t forget that those armies work with draftees up to the NCO level.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 116):
2) If it was Ukraine, why are they using anti air when the rebels have no aircraft?

After an An-26 was shot down in 6500m they had to consider the possibility of some air to air capabilities being available to them. If they had known it was a BUK SAM system there would not be a SU-25 in 5000-10.000 meters (Russian data) unless its Pilot has a serious death wish.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ne-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17

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SeJoWa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 110):

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 101):
The provided a graphical presentation of their radar data. Which happens to be exactly what Russia provided. Only that the US actually tracked the missile and not two aircraft that had absolutely nothing to do with each other aside of being in some proximity...

The only very big question is why the US does not share the evidence with the public ? What is to hide if Russia is to blame anyway ?

...
At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11.
...
SOURCE:
United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/stateme...07192014.html#.U8wwLvVBKgc.twitter

That's clear. Original data from spy satellites is not going to be released, and I wouldn't expect any country to do so.

Of course, our bumbling State Department is no match for the total Russian Information war. They can't even devote some experts to provide analysis in an easily referenced manner for freely available online information like this:

Abkhasian or Ossetian mercenary convoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HaPQsMWahM
via Scipio Reply 4 Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7 (by bnatraveler Jul 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Gotta love this comment on the page:
sergei kostin1 day ago
Russia is mnogotsionalny people and therefore we are invincible, ..., and then all of Ukraine sent to landfill.

And regarding those ridiculous allegations re a ground combat SU-25:
@EvgenyFeldman
photojournalist employed by @novaya_gazeta and contributing to

 
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william
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:09 pm

This quote brings some perspective to this sad story. I wandered how a missile could bring down an aircraft as large as the 777 without hitting it. From the New York Times.

" In the minutes before it was struck, Flight 17 was traveling at a steady elevation and speed across Ukraine, according to data from FlightRadar24, an online flight tracker. Its passengers and crew would have settled into the tedious routines of a typical long-haul international flight.

The damage visible on the small piece of wreckage indicate a sudden end to the aircraft’s journey: Its thin skin was riddled with shrapnel and rocked by the force of a nearby high-explosive blast, twice the power of the blast of a modern artillery shell.

Traveling at more than 500 miles an hour, the plane, very quickly, would shear apart, and be a plane no more."
 
osiris30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 116):
1) If it was rebels, how did they obtain Buk and train to use it?
2) If it was Ukraine, why are they using anti air when the rebels have no aircraft?

Very reasonable questions. 1 has two possible answers for the first part (the captured it or it was provided by Russia), and two possible answers for the second part (a missile crew 'defected' or Russia provided training or personnel to operate it.. the Ukraine wouldn't provide training or people to the rebels). I suppose for the training factor there is an outside chance of some third party as yet un-named in any speculation providing the personnel or training, but I think we can all agree it's unlikely.

2) Occam's razor would seem to answer that one pretty well, unless some much crazier wilder scenario starts to be considered.

I'll go on record as saying I trust no side (Russia, the rebels or the Ukraine) to be completely truthful and forthright in discussing this event. That said the mass of evidence this far points to rebels shooting down a commercial jet by accident using hardware *originally* or Russian origin (note I didn't state Russian provided, see above). As such Russia has some burden in my opinion with this due to their efforts to prolong this conflict.

There is enough multimedia floating around the web to prove there is at least a minor Russian involvement and support with the rebels. Anyone who is objective has to agree that even if very casually Russia has provided some sort of support/backing to the rebels.. even is the support is merely allowing mercenaries to freely traverse the boarder to get involved in the conflict.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:23 pm

A thought for the victims.
Dutch Minister Frans Timmermans in an emotional speech in front of the UN Security Council. In English.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/tv/nieuws/bi...motionele_speech_Timmermans__.html
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 120):
I'll go on record as saying I trust no side (Russia, the rebels or the Ukraine) to be completely truthful and forthright in discussing this event. That said the mass of evidence this far points to rebels shooting down a commercial jet by accident using hardware *originally* or Russian origin (note I didn't state Russian provided, see above). As such Russia has some burden in my opinion with this due to their efforts to prolong this conflict.

This sums it up well. I also believe rebels messed up and Russia is trying hard to be absolved of any direct or indirect blame as it's absolutely not in its interest to have a civilian aircraft shot down from the skies. Of course, no one wants to help them wash their hands, which goes as far as not sharing any evidence which is most probably available. What worries me is that in an effort to prove their cold-war-motivated stance Western media and governments use any means to win a spitting contest where the receiving end is Russia. No one seems to really care about the victims as political agendas are more important and this is sickening.
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jmp367
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 118):
right now somebody edits Su-25 wiki page changing its attitude in accordance with Russian defense ministry statement http://t.co/uULFfvoHob
— Feldman (@EvgenyFeldman) July 21, 2014

Russian government as been caught changing the MH17 Wikipedia page:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...dits-Wikipedia-on-flight-MH17.html

[Edited 2014-07-22 14:38:06]
 
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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:43 pm

The image of people sawing into the cockpit makes me wonder what they are trying to accomplish?

Are they trying to remove evidence or trying to access a body?
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sovietjet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:16 pm

USA has said no direct Russian link, just as we have pretty much assumed by now.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-no-evidence...ian-plane-210210006--politics.html
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 113):
So at least two culprits might have fired it (Ukrainian forces or rebels)

No, Russian Forces since it takes 6 months of training to use such a system or rebel forces which are mostly Russian soldiers under Russian command. The Russian news channel RT initially broadcasted that Rebels had shot down an Ukrainian military transport. Yet 30 minutes later they changed that report to Ukrainian forces shot down a passenger jet. Believe what you want to believe. If you're to lazy to read the previous threads of this discussion which have plenty of links to supporting documentation and just do what Pilon101 does and only selectively choose what information to believe, go right ahead. At this point everyone knows who shot down the plane.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 126):
No, Russian Forces since it takes 6 months of training to use such a system or rebel forces which are mostly Russian soldiers under Russian command. The Russian news channel RT initially broadcasted that Rebels had shot down an Ukrainian military transport. Yet 30 minutes later they changed that report to Ukrainian forces shot down a passenger jet. Believe what you want to believe. If you're to lazy to read the previous threads of this discussion which have plenty of links to supporting documentation and just do what Pilon101 does and only selectively choose what information to believe, go right ahead. At this point everyone knows who shot down the plane.

See, when I was in the army I learned how to use certain systems. I don't have to be in active service to be able to use them again. Similarly, rebels didn't need active Russian forces to fire a Buk rocket. Why is it so hard to understand this?
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:23 pm

I'm personally not paying much attention to what is said. But the reality is that Russia is helping the separatists and none of this would have happened if the Oligarchs didn't want the energy trapped under the Ukraine

Quoting Scipio (Reply 4):
However, Russia's role in eastern Ukraine has been so dirty that the only thing that is required to unmask it is attention...

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 240):
Ever since the people of Maidan got collectively tarred with the vile and false allegation of being "fascists" for claiming their freedom from brotherly - botherly - Russian love of the KGB kind, I can't but be an antagonist to Russia as it now presents itself.

Sad but true. I wish Putin would read "The Lexus and the Olive Tree." Politics and Economics is not what it was in the 1980s or earlier. We now live in a world of the mouse click.

Quoting 76er (Reply 45):
Dutch PM Mark Rutte just gave another short statement to reporters and mentioned that Ukraine has turned over the intestigation lead to the Netherlands. The FDR and CVR were on board the train with the pax' remains and are now in Charkov.

That is good news.

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 54):
Everything points into the direction that it was indeed a missile built in the territory which is now "Russia".

That is a fact that cannot be denied.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 77):
The Russian people are facing economic hardship and will now face even worse because of Putin's paranoid and expansionist regime, a regime that history has shown will ultimately fail and will also fail the citizens it claims to protect and, as someone who remembers 1989 - 1991 very well, the smart, honest and hardworking Russian people punish those in the Kremlin who make them poorer and weaker through the stupidity of the political classes.

That is the modern economy. Commit a war that raises international ire and there are major economic consequences.

Quoting chiad (Reply 88):
I for my part can imagine that this is a plot to revenge/hurt Russia and its economy.

Not a plot to take territory at any cost? Fair enough.

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 121):
A thought for the victims.

We should spend more time discussing them. Sad. Love lost. Potential destroyed.
His words "Staggering number of children" is a sad but true thought.

That speech also brings home how tough this is on the Dutch.

Lightsaber
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alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 116):
I think by now people aren't thinking the missile was fired from inside the actual country of Russia. I at the moment believe it was the rebels that did it by mistake,
Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 77):
The Russian people are facing economic hardship and will now face even worse because of Putin's paranoid and expansionist regime, a regime that history has shown will ultimately fail and will also fail the citizens it claims to protect and, as someone who remembers 1989 - 1991 very well, the smart, honest and hardworking Russian people punish those in the Kremlin who make them poorer and weaker through the stupidity of the political classes.

Putin has sought - by any means possible - to destabilize the Ukranian governmant, ever since it signed its economic pact with Europe. In his deranged vision of rebuilding the Russian empire, he has trampled on the rights of all Ukranians - and now he has the blood of almost 300 airline passengers on his hands.

It is hard to say any good can come of such a tragedy, buy we can hope it will be a wake-up call to European leaders, who - for their own economic interests - have ignored the brutality the Russians and their thugs have brought to Eastern Ukraine. It is clear that the separatists made a horrible mistake, and in giving them the weapons to do so, Putin overplayed his hand.

Whwn the grieving and sorrow is over, there will be a time to recognize who caused this tragedy, and hold him - and his minions - accountable.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 93):
With regards to the black boxes, can someone with technical expertise shed some light on: IF the rebels or whoever was in control of the boxes could have replaced the data with their own to make it seem as if the airplane was behaving the way they wish to portray it?

I'd say it's unlikely enough to be ruled out. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but it would take incredibly advanced equipment that would not be available to the rebels.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 125):
USA has said no direct Russian link, just as we have pretty much assumed by now.

Yup. Nothing really new here: it was the rebels, they had received the weapons and training from Russia, but Russia neither knew about, approved, nor ordered them to shoot down the aircraft. Still doesn't absolve Russia from their responsibility as a contributing factor.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:43 am

At this point, even Russia is publicly admitting the possibility that the rebels shot down MH17, and are starting to put some distance from them.

It's looking more and more that the rebels have turned into the Ukrainian version of ISIS. There can be little doubt that Russia financed, organized and armed the rebels. What is in question, is how much control Russia has over these guys now. That is to say, very little.

Right now, Putin deeply regrets giving those idiots Buk missiles. This was way more trouble than he was looking for...in fact, Eastern Ukraine has pretty much run out of use for Putin and he'll be cutting the rebels off soon enough.

Regardless of propaganda, the East has always been more Ukrainian than Russian. In comparison, Crimea was a different cat altogether.

It has always been at least as much Russian as Ukrainian. It was officially known as a 'semi autonomous' region of Ukraine, with a huge Russian presence, including the Russian Black Sea fleet, and bases all over the peninsula.

That's why it was so easy to take over. The vote was questionable at best, with too many cases of opposition being intimidated, beaten or worse, to be ignored but there already were more Russian troops than Ukrainian. That being said, they are a long way away from Moscow or Kyiv, and don't feel any particular allegiance, or loyalty to either.

To residents, it's not Russia, or Ukraine, it's Crimea.

Eastern Ukraine, while being more 'Russian' than the west, (which makes sense since it borders Russia), is still more Ukrainian than Russian. The same polls that Russians use to indicate Crimean loyalty to Russia, show the majority of residents in Eastern Ukraine, want to stay Ukrainian.

That's why the East is resisting takeover from Russia. The rebels don't have nearly the local support they did in Crimea. There never was an independence movement there, certainly not a loud, vocal or armed one. The rebels are criminals of convenience for Putin, easy pawns to use to vent his anger at the west, not even for the revolution in Kyiv, but the moves to bring Ukraine into NATO...the one thing Putin said he wouldn't stand for.

These rebels, don't even have loyalty to one another, much less Russia. They are criminals, taking advantage of any chance they have to get rich. While they may have followed Moscow's orders at first, now they are high on power and starting to believe their own press releases. It's like herding cats for the Russian advisors. The best Russia can do to exert influence is to give them arms, training and money. The complete disorganization and lack of control is in stark contrast to the organization and control during the Crimea campaign.

More than anything else, that should show people who really is in control of the rebels....nobody.

For now, this is being a huge pain in the butt for the west, and that's mainly what Putin wants. He doesn't want Eastern Ukraine...the loser rebels would then be their problem...and Russia has enough of their own.

I think very soon, Putin will have made whatever point he was trying to make, then cut the rebels off from money, hardware and training...after cutting some back door deals.

Then, the rebels will crumble into the disorganized rabble from whence they came.

By the way, I lived a couple of years in Odessa, not very long ago, so I do have some perspective about life in Ukraine.
What the...?
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 127):
Similarly, rebels didn't need active Russian forces to fire a Buk rocket. Why is it so hard to understand this?

Because it gets repeated here over and over again that the Ukrainians fired or possibly fired the missile. Or that the rebels got of hold of an Ukrainian BUK system. Yet the Ukraine has no reason to have a BUK in the combat theatre. The rebels don't have any planes. And the Ukraine has stated that they don't have a BUK in the east of Ukraine. The rebels can't steel what's not there. The Ukraine also has fighter aircraft like the Su-27 which are also not in the combat area. What is in the combat area are ground attack aircraft similar to the US A-10 tank busters. The last couple of weeks the Ukraine has been kicking the Rebel's ass. They have a large quantity of tanks on the ground and recently started using their ground attack planes. It is obvious that at this point the rebel forces have asked help from Putin to supply better SAM to deal with these ground attack aircraft. It has been shown that on Thursday Rebels boasted of the arrival of "New" SAM missiles. On that Thursday MH-17 was shot down. Now the Russians try to claim that the SAM was actually shot at a SU-25 which happened to be close to the MH-17 and it's all an accident. If the BUK had not been there, MH-17 had not happened. So it's Russia's problem.

But tell me what you want, the Ukraine has nothing to do with the downing of MH-17.
 
2175301
Posts: 1610
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:02 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 131):
Crimea was a different cat altogether.

It has always been at least as much Russian as Ukrainian. It was officially known as a 'semi autonomous' region of Ukraine, with a huge Russian presence, including the Russian Black Sea fleet, and bases all over the peninsula.

That's why it was so easy to take over. The vote was questionable at best, with too many cases of opposition being intimidated, beaten or worse, to be ignored but there already were more Russian troops than Ukrainian. That being said, they are a long way away from Moscow or Kyiv, and don't feel any particular allegiance, or loyalty to either.

To residents, it's not Russia, or Ukraine, it's Crimea.

Partly correct; but your summation has been distorted by the propaganda.

Yes the locals very much consider it as Crimea, and that they were citizens of Crimea first. But, the ratio who also felt they were Ukraine is much higher than what you reported.

Here is a fact you can actually look up: When Yanukovych had his powers reduced by the Ukrainian Parliament back to what they were when he took office earlier this year; he left Kiev for a "vacation" in Crimea his home area.

The Parliament of Crimea was in session and the issue of what Crimea wanted to do given the obvious changes in national government toward Europe in Kiev. The Crimea Parliament overwhelmingly voted that they wished to remain a part of Ukraine vs succession and merger with Russia (my memory is something like 85-90% to remain part of Ukraine). This vote happened with Yanukovych in Crimea; and I may be wrong on this - but my memory is that he was in attendance at the Crimea Parliament session when it occurred..

General press coverage at the time indicated that the local population supported the Crimea Parliaments decision.

Then Yanukovych vanished and turned up in Russia. A few weeks later the "local" protest started in Crimea with people with unmarked uniforms. Russia denied any involvement. Most people know about how the Ukraine armed forces did not fare well and the hasty vote without international monitoring, etc, and subsequent annexation of Crimea by Russia.

Few people noticed that Putin then publically awarded military medals to the "leaders" of the Crimea revolt which clearly identify that it was the Russian Military who actually led that revolt.

The true feelings of the local population was expressed by their Parliament after Yanukovych fled Kiev.

I do not understand why Europe and the United States did not make more of that earlier vote; and some other things.

For those wondering why I know these things. My wife is from Ukraine so I usually see all kinds of news that does not make it to front page Main Stream Media (although you should be able to find the Crimea Parliament Vote to stay with Ukraine and reject separatism and merger with Russia in the main steam media.


Have a great day,
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:05 am

It is worth mentioning that the assumed location of the SA-11 launcher (between Torez and Snizhne as given by the NYT and Washington Post) lies almost on the centerline of Airway L980.

Here is a printscreen of a GE display of the shootdown area.
I suggest that you download it and use a picture viewer so that you can zoom in on the launch area.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/69mjikyx2n4c2rb/Screenshot%202014-07-22%2017.24.11.png
 
trex8
Posts: 5364
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:06 am

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 133):
I do not understand why Europe and the United States did not make more of that earlier vote; and some other things.

The cat got out of the bag in 08 when nothing was done in Georgia.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 97):
None of what you wrote has been verified, nor is there hard evidence. Are there Russians helping the rebels? Most likely yes. Are they doing all the rest of what you said? Unknown. Were they in Chechnya before? Even more uknown, there's no way you can say that is a fact. Be objective, don't make wild assumptions especially with such detail.

1) The first name that comes to mind is Igor Strelkov—the self-proclaimed commander in chief in Donetsk and a Russian secret police colonel who fought in both Chechen wars. Can you deny that?

2) It was the same Igor Strelkov who on Thursday afternoon boasted online of having taken down another military plane, before realizing that the plane in question was MH17. Can you deny that?

3) Vladimir Antyufeyev, the Donetsk “deputy prime minister”, is a Russian citizen who led the Latvian KGB’s attempt to overthrow the independent Latvian government back in 1991. Can you deny that?

These are not "wild assumptions"; these are facts, based on the bragging these mercenaries and security services operatives were doing - on their own website - prior to learning the downed plane was MH17. I don't know if the Russian censors allow you to access this type of information -probably not - but the rest of the world knows. It is a shame the good people of Russia - and there are many good people there - are being fed so much disinformation and falsehoods.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting B797 (Reply 1):
I feel MH17 has been used by the United States and some Western countries to simply advance a narrative.

I can see why you would say that and understand your point. It seems that the US has forgotten about Iran Air Flight 655. Until the facts are known about who exactly shot down MH17, with what, supplied by who and why??? It is pretty safe to say that it was not shot down by a Russian Navy ship under direct control of Moscow. We know what shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and that it was apparently a 'mistake' - so, if pro-Russian rebels shot at what they thought was a Ukraine SU25 over a war zone then I don't see how the US can say it wasn't a mistake as well - which it obviously was? Hypocrisy...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:29 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 137):

Looks like the US is saying it was a mistake, but they don't know who made the mistake.

US INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-in...irectly-involved-mh17-carsh-2014-7

Also:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...lligence-data-plane-crash-24664577
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:08 am

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 133):

My point was that the takeover was relatively easy because of the thousands of Russian troops, and the Russian Black Sea fleet, permanently stationed there. It was easy for them to mobilize.

There isn't much the citizens of Crimea could do once the Russian troops took over.

That Crimea always had such a huge Russian presence, and the independent nature of their system, helped make the takeover easier.

If Crimea had really wanted to be part of Russia, they would have done it long ago...and it wouldn't have taken voting at gunpoint to do it. The same goes for Eastern Ukraine. There was no armed insurrection in either region until Putin let the troops loose on the streets.

Another thing for sure...If Putin hadn't decided his pride was worth more than lives, and to invade Ukraine, MH17 would have made it safely to its destination.
What the...?
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:18 am

Quoting ltc8k6 (Reply 138):
US INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17

Is there anybody posting here who thinks this is something new?

No US government spokespersons have ever claimed that this was an action by the Russian military that I know of. Also, I have never seen any accusations from anyone that the missile came from the Russian side of the border.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:51 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 132):
But tell me what you want, the Ukraine has nothing to do with the downing of MH-17.

You are entitled to your opinion which is made under the assumption that you trust Ukrainian government. I don't.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 141):
You are entitled to your opinion which is made under the assumption that you trust Ukrainian government.

A person doesn't have to trust the Ukrainian Government to know that they had nothing to do with it.

The Ukrainians could not have had one of their SAM units in the place to have made that shot. The missile came from rebel held territory. We can also see that the missile came from an easterly direction by the fact that the missile burst was in front of the A/C. This is again supported by the US intel which places the launcher between Torez and Snizhne.

There is plenty of other evidence, including social media, which tell us that it wasn't the Ukrainians who did the shootdown.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:35 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 61):
Geolocation of "Missile Plume", published yesterday: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014....html

Very interesting. Thanks.

The same site also has an analysis of the itinerary that the Buk likely took:

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014...transport-of-buk-into-ukraine.html

It's consistent with the tapped conversations released earlier by the SBU, in which one of the rebels mentioned that the Buk had arrived in Donetsk on the morning of July 17.

There is an expanded version of these conversations, with English subtitles, on the website:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAOTWPmMM4

[Edited 2014-07-22 23:48:03]
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:08 am

Italian (Corriere della sera) and German (FAZ) journalists have been able to talk separately to some separists who said having been sent to the crash site directly after the crash to arrest the pilots...

Germon only:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/a...n-piloten-festnehmen-13059009.html
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:17 am

reply to Scipio:

The information at the blogspot link matches with my prior assumptions. I examined the area in between Torez and Snizhne looking for a location on high ground away from buildings and other structures which was along the major east/west highway (H21.)

The place I picked as the most likely lies along the route given at the blogspot link.

I'll leave the URL to my Google Earth capture again.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/69mjikyx2n4c2rb/Screenshot%202014-07-22%2017.24.11.png

A disturbing fact I ran across in doing this is that the launcher location I picked turned out to be only about one km off the centerline of the airway MH-17 was using (L980.) If someone wanted to pick off an airliner, this is a great spot to set up at.

It makes me wonder who chose that location.
 
lowbank
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:36 am

Your question on the black boxes and about the data.
They record on RAM, random access memory, by it's very nature of use it can be over recorded. Deleting the data would I think would be relatively easy with the correct equipment .
Replacing it with data that farnborough would find credible however would be very difficult. Recreating the pilots voices with a correct match to the air traffic control records that will exist . I suggest that's impossible.
Remember MH had Acars so data will have been sent to the engine manufacturer at undeterminable intervals (by the black box I mean) that data would have to match the data records that RR will have.
So I conclude you could have deleted the data, but replacing it , no because there will be too much cross matching data that would prove it had been falsified.
Every days a school day.
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:41 am

Quoting ltc8k6 (Reply 138):
US INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17
Quoting tailskid (Reply 140):
I have never seen any accusations from anyone that the missile came from the Russian side of the border.

It has been part of the western propaganda, and has been mentioned on numerous western media TV news stations and by a few journalists in respected newspapers as a serious possibility (obviously ridiculous).

Of course all countries indulge in propaganda to some extent on their government funded stations, and in that context it is fairly benign. However, when propaganda is used on the scale it has been in this incident it can also be a sophisticated and massively influential tool, particularly for those who understand English. Contrary to what most believe, the western media has by far the most effective propaganda tool in the world. The reason it is so effective is because most of the time people cannot even recognize when it is being used (and of course the fact that so many people understand English). With the spectrum saturated, and the decline of old style critical journalism, there is little to curb it. The western media will print and say almost anything it gets from any semi official/corporate/expert/academic/military/intelligence... source, often just repeating exactly what other media outlets receive.

In this case the western media coverage has been at times shrill and ludicrous (e.g. assertions that a missile was fired from the Russian side of the border). There has are clearly organized western propaganda elements that attempt to play on peoples emotions in an attempt to close down alternative analysis that are not part of their own manufactured message. The entire coverage reminds me very much of the coverage leading up to the Iraq war and the effort to persuade the world that there were WMDs in Iraq, (when there were none). The same techniques, the same absolute certainty, the confident persuasive talking heads, the same message chorused by multiple media outlets...are people's memories really that short?

A reasonable test of whether a coverage is fair is whether it asks the question why did Ukraine leave its airspace open exposing hundreds of airliners and thousands of people to the known risk of being shot down?

[Edited 2014-07-23 01:05:48]
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:42 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 144):
sent to the crash site directly after the crash to arrest the pilots...

They expected the pilots to be alive?

Wouldn't parachutes have been reported on the radio if there were such lucky pilots of an AN-26?
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7

Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:52 am

Quoting ltc8k6 (Reply 148):
They expected the pilots to be alive?

Wouldn't parachutes have been reported on the radio if there were such lucky pilots of an AN-26?

Probably they expected the pilots of an AN-26 to have parachutes and possibly be alive...

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