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cokepopper
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:00 pm

Delta announced today they will be suspending flights to TLV until further notice. effective immediately. No aircraft are presently in TLV..
 
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enilria
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:03 pm

I don't know if I posted this earlier, but my guess is that the insurance carriers are now going to dictate routings to the airlines. They are required to carry insurance for the lessor and mortgagee and the insurers are not going to carry this risk any more because that's exactly what insurers do. Either the airline will be responsible and won't take the risk or the insurer will and will exclude liability from flying over war zones.

This is going to add a lot to flying times, fares, fuel burn, and will make some long routes no longer feasible non-stop.
 
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hufftheweevil
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:05 pm

Any reason given? And where's the announcement?
Huff
 
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KarelXWB
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 2):
Any reason given?

Twitter reports say a rocket has hit the airport.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Chaostheory
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
but my guess is that the insurance carriers are now going to dictate routings to the airlines.

They will do no such thing.
 
Cubsrule
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:08 pm

The press release is here and is generally consistent with the Twitter report, though the press release says the rocket was near the airport, not on the airport.
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MIflyer12
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 2):
Any reason given? And where's the announcement?

There's a press release directly from delta.com:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=20295&item=124548

'Jul 22, 2014

Delta has suspended service until further notice to and from Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv and its New York-JFK hub. Delta, in coordination with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, is doing so to ensure the safety and security of our customers and employees.

Delta flight 468, a Boeing 747 from JFK with 273 passengers and 17 crew, diverted to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Tuesday after reports of a rocket or associated debris near the airport in Tel Aviv. Delta is working to reaccommodate these customers.' Other elements truncated.
 
BravoEchoNov
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:16 pm

Wow this is huge! I wonder what Delta will use their extra 747-400 on... Would love to see it down in Atlanta.
 
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KarelXWB
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:21 pm

The flight is now diverting to CDG.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtKGnU9CYAAiWfV.png:large

http://fr24.com/DAL468
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TK787
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:26 pm

How about other airlines?
I know for one thing TK has 8th dailies to TLV today, its busiest route, I wonder if they will change anything.
So far, all flights are departing.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:30 pm

Wow i would not like to be working the ticket counter at JFK tomorrow.

I think Delta is smart to be ultra safe given all that has happened recenlty. I think they made the right call.
 
anstar
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:32 pm

TV reports say all US airlines have now canned flights to TLV.
 
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enilria
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 7):
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=kul-ams...D%0Akul-otp-ams%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=mi

All MH had to do was route KUL-AMS over OTP and you only add 128 miles.

Ukraine was not their normal route, there were thunderstorms to the North that forced a Southern route.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 4):
Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
but my guess is that the insurance carriers are now going to dictate routings to the airlines.

They will do no such thing.

Tell me why not? I think you underestimate the power of insurance companies and their unwillingness to pay claims.
 
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KarelXWB
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
I think Delta is smart to be ultra safe given all that has happened recenlty. I think they made the right call.

Indeed. If the airport is indeed under attack, one would be wise to avoid it as far as possible.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
ORD Boy 2
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:38 pm

NBC Nightly News @NBCNightlyNews · 3m

NEW: @USAirways has cancelled flights between Tel Aviv and Philadelphia today - @prodjay
One day no big deal. Delta though, I get it it but its just sad...
 
redadeco
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:39 pm

US Airways is suspending its service to TLV as well.

UA on the other hand has not announced anything yet.
 
SCQ83
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting ORD Boy 2 (Reply 15):
One day no big deal. Delta though, I get it it but its just sad...

What do you get?
 
Ammad
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting redadeco (Reply 16):
Quoting redadeco (Reply 16):
US Airways is suspending its service to TLV as well.

UA on the other hand has not announced anything yet.

So as of now only United is commencing operation from North America?

[Edited 2014-07-22 08:45:50]
 
RDUDDJI
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 4):
They will do no such thing.

The airlines can fly what they want, but if they wish to be insured, then enilria is correct. I suspect as fallout from recent events that insurers are going to take a more "active" role in how/where airlines utilize their insured fleet.

To be clear, I don't support this, I pretty much hate insurance companies, but that's the way it is.
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oc2dc
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:47 pm

It appears UA has also suspended their flight to TLV per the UA website.

[Edited 2014-07-22 08:48:41]
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
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KarelXWB
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:49 pm

Quoting redadeco (Reply 16):
UA on the other hand has not announced anything yet.

Delta, United, and US Airways have all cancelled flights to Israel based upon missile fears.

http://twitter.com/AirlineReporter/status/491609737897603072
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fxramper
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:49 pm

UA cancelled 84 & 90 for today (7/22).

No news of suspension.
 
SCQ83
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 19):
The airlines can fly what they want, but if they wish to be insured, then enilria is correct. I suspect as fallout from recent events that insurers are going to take a more "active" role in how/where airlines utilize their insured fleet.

Insurances aside, it seems quite logical to me that US carriers do not want to take any risk flying to Israel with the present circumstances in Palestine, and a week after MH17.

If a US plane would be hit by a missile after MH17 and flying to a dangerous area, that would be the death of its brand in America. Even if the chance of being hit by a missile is tiny, its consequences would be lethal. Israel is a tiny market for US carriers anyway, so why take any risk.
 
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enilria
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 19):
Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 4):
They will do no such thing.

The airlines can fly what they want, but if they wish to be insured, then enilria is correct. I suspect as fallout from recent events that insurers are going to take a more "active" role in how/where airlines utilize their insured fleet.

To be clear, I don't support this, I pretty much hate insurance companies, but that's the way it is.

Doubly agree. Plus the airlines don't have the choice. If you operate a leased or mortgaged plane you have to operate it in accordance with insurance company mandates...and that is nearly every plane in the sky.
 
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hufftheweevil
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting ORD Boy 2 (Reply 15):
One day no big deal. Delta though, I get it it but its just sad...

US is anticipating this is last a while, as anyone traveling through the 31st is allowed to change: http://www.usairways.com/TravelCenter/Advisories.aspx
Huff
 
D L X
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 2):

Any reason given? And where's the announcement?

In addition to others' comments before me, here's a press release. http://news.yahoo.com/delta-cancels-...s-over-missile-fear-150757559.html

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):
Israel is a tiny market for US carriers anyway, so why take any risk.

Israel is a very lucrative market for US carriers. It's a pretty big loss.
 
usairways85
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:54 pm

US 796 PHL-TLV is also cancelled today.
 
D L X
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 26):
US is anticipating this is last a while, as anyone traveling through the 31st is allowed to change: http://www.usairways.com/TravelCenter/Advisories.aspx

That travel advisory has been up for some time now. Do you know if it's been amended?
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 27):
Israel is a very lucrative market for US carriers. It's a pretty big loss.

It will be a bigger loss for Israel if Hamas is successful in shutting down TLV whenever it wants.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:05 pm

did that U2 flight cancel?
 
Cubsrule
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
Doubly agree. Plus the airlines don't have the choice. If you operate a leased or mortgaged plane you have to operate it in accordance with insurance company mandates...and that is nearly every plane in the sky.

Given the diversion (and the fact that DL was just a couple of hours out of TLV and well beyond CDG when they chose to divert), I suspect that DL's decision was internal, though an insurer may well have forced cancellations down the line. The timing is likely too quick for an insurance company to have been involved with today's flight.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Chaostheory
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
Doubly agree. Plus the airlines don't have the choice. If you operate a leased or mortgaged plane you have to operate it in accordance with insurance company mandates...and that is nearly every plane in the sky.

Have you ever negotiated airliner insurance?

The liability is often spread across multiple insurers.

I'm looking at the War Policy section of a recently delivered 77W, (insured by Swiss Re amongst others), and it is in no way as restrictive as you state, despite the aircraft being based in the Middle-East in a country a stone's throw from Syria.
 
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blooBirdie
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting YouGeeElWhy (Reply 31):
U2 flight cancel?

Nope, it was just on the ground at FCO! Now airborne.
 
bennett123
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:19 pm

This is prob short term.

They could use it for charters, subbing for another type to provide extra lift or providing cover for MX or aircraft going tech.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 35):
This is prob short term.

Most likely.......because......

Quoting d l x (Reply 27):
Israel is a very lucrative market for US carriers. It's a pretty big loss.

.
.
.
Once the fighting stops (if you can call it that, because nothing ever stops in that neck of the woods), the American carriers will return.

Honestly, DL is not doing this for the safety of its passengers, because the passengers that were rerouted to CDG will end up taking Air France, El Al or any other carrier to TLV anyways.

All pretty silly if you ask me. Either TLV is safe, so all airlines can use it, or it isn't. Which is it ?

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-07-22 09:41:05]
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enilria
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
Doubly agree. Plus the airlines don't have the choice. If you operate a leased or mortgaged plane you have to operate it in accordance with insurance company mandates...and that is nearly every plane in the sky.

Given the diversion (and the fact that DL was just a couple of hours out of TLV and well beyond CDG when they chose to divert), I suspect that DL's decision was internal, though an insurer may well have forced cancellations down the line. The timing is likely too quick for an insurance company to have been involved with today's flight.

I'm sure this percolated up immediately from the insurers but there is also PR value in changing their behavior.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 33):
Have you ever negotiated airliner insurance?

The liability is often spread across multiple insurers.

There is still a lead and even if there isn't a lead I'm certain there was a chorus from all of them immediately. That's what insurers do...reduce risk.

Reading the current policy is pretty irrelevant. This is new ground. The insurers can just revoke the policy in the interim if the airlines don't bend to their will. Am i correct they have that latitude? If the one you are reading doesn't, I'm sure plenty do.

Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.
 
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fxramper
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.

It's only 24 hrs which is moot since all US flagged carriers that serve TLV already cancelled flights today.
 
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United_fan
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:52 pm

I wonder why they diverted to Paris ? Becuase it was a Skyteam hub ?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
AADC10
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 27):
Israel is a very lucrative market for US carriers. It's a pretty big loss.

Because of the current situation, most non-essential travel to Israel has been greatly reduced so it is not as much of a loss as it might be otherwise. Having a solid reason to cancel the flights reduces customer anger and compensation, so suspending the route may not have that much of a net cost.
 
Chaostheory
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
This is new ground. The insurers can just revoke the policy in the interim if the airlines don't bend to their will. Am i correct they have that latitude?

Swiss Re is the liability lead for the majority of our fleet. They are also one of the largest airliner insurers worldwide (Top 5). I haven't heard so much as a squeak out of them following the MH17 incident.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):

Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.

  

Regulators have the real teeth in this business.

Any restrictions we have on ATS routings usually come from them.
 
AeroWesty
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:54 pm

CNN just announced the Lufthansa Group has suspended flights to TLV for 36 hours.
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max999
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:55 pm

According to the Wall Street Journal, DL, US, and UA have announced the flights are cancelled 'until further notice.' Whatever 'until further notice' means.

Quote:
Earlier Tuesday Delta Air Lines, American Airlines Group Inc. and United Continental Holdings Inc. said they were canceling flights to Israel until further notice after reports that a rocket landed near Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport.

Copy and paste this link - online.wsj.com/articles/delta-halts-flights-to-israel-1406043056

[Edited 2014-07-22 10:11:00]
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Miami
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:55 pm

FAA orders US airlines to not fly to or from Tel Aviv for a 24 hour period.

[Edited 2014-07-22 09:55:26]
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roseflyer
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:57 pm

The FAA issuing a NOTAM prohibiting flights for 24 hours from US airlines is having a ripple effect. Most regulators follow closely behind the FAA when reviewing things like this. The Lufthansa group has suspended all service for 36 hours and it looks like more airlines are doing similar thing.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 38):
Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.

It's only 24 hrs which is moot since all US flagged carriers that serve TLV already cancelled flights today.

It's not moot since UA has a 777 on the ground in TLV. They are trying to ferry it out since the revenue flight TLV-EWR was cancelled. Also 24 hour NOTAMs have a tendency to get extended. 24 hours might just be the first of multiple restrictions.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 39):
I wonder why they diverted to Paris ? Becuase it was a Skyteam hub ?

Delta has significant operations in CDG. With a 747, there aren't many places closer by where DL can easily handle all the passengers. It will be easy to get them rerouted via AF or DL. It doesn't look like most airlines from Europe will be flying to TLV in the next 24-36 hours, so CDG will at least give plenty of opportunities to get people back to the US. CDG or AMS are their best options. Closer cities like IST, FCO, and ATH only have one flight per day, so they would be forced to put people in hotels and have a messy situation getting people where they need to go.

[Edited 2014-07-22 10:00:51]
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PHX787
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
The flight is now diverting to CDG.

That is eerie...Shades of 9/11

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
I think Delta is smart to be ultra safe given all that has happened recenlty. I think they made the right call.

I agree. Better be safe than sorry.

Quoting Miami (Reply 44):
FAA orders US airlines to not fly to or from Tel Aviv for a 24 hour period.

I have a feeling this is going to go to:

Quoting max999 (Reply 43):
According to the Wall Street Journal, DL, US, and UA have announced the flights are cancelled 'until further notice.' Whatever 'until further notice' that means.

This. Until further notice = until Israel and Gaza stop fighting, probably.
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migair54
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:07 pm

It will be interesting to see if they evacuate the crews that are in TLV and how do they do it.

I'm not sure about this, but if alk the USA airlines are cancelling flights to TLV so suddenly maybe it's because someone told them that intelligence has some info about a threat to them or a possible terrorist attack.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 39):
I wonder why they diverted to Paris ? Becuase it was a Skyteam hub ?

Multiple daily flights and big delta station, Rome is also a skyteam hub but they overfly it twice. they can re-route the pax (AF or El Al).

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.

USA airlines only or also EL Al?
 
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TK787
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 45):
The Lufthansa group has suspended all service for 36 hours and it looks like more airlines are doing similar thing.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 45):
It doesn't look like most airlines from Europe will be flying to TLV in the next 24-36 hours

Hope this doesn't backfire but todays 5th IST-TLV TK flight just took off, 3 more to go tonight.
Also Pegasus Airlines have 3 flights between TLV-SAW tomorrow on.
 
SCQ83
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:29 pm

Lufthansa Group suspends flights to TLV for the next 36 hours.

That includes Lufthansa, Germanwings, Swiss and Austrian flying from TXL, FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE.

http://www.focus.de/reisen/flug/eska...l-aviv-vorerst-ein_id_4009383.html

Quote:
Die Lufthansa-Gruppe folgt dem Beispiel USA: Sie stellt alle Flüge nach Tel Aviv vorerst ein.

Die Lufthansa stellt ihre Flüge von und nach Tel Aviv für die nächsten 36 Stunden ein. Zu diesem Schritt habe man sich wegen der unsicheren Lage am Flughafen Ben Gurion entschlossen, teilte Lufthansa am Dienstagabend mit. Die Entscheidung gelte für alle Flüge von Lufthansa, Germanwings, Austrian Airlines und Swiss.

Die Fluglinine des Konzerns führen insgesamt aus Frankfurt, Berlin, München, Zürich und Wien flugplanmäßig - abhängig vom Wochentag - zwischen sieben und zehn Flüge pro Tag nach Tel Aviv durch.

Zuvor hatten bereits mehrere amerikanische Fluglinien ihre Flüge nach Tel Aviv abgesagt.


[Edited 2014-07-22 10:30:44]
 
Tobias2702
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 49):
That includes Lufthansa, Germanwings, Swiss and Austrian flying from TXL, FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE.

Also Lufthansa Cargo. The MD-11 on the FRA-TLV route was already south of Turkey when it returned, now possibly diverting to IST?
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
masseybrown
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Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
Given the diversion (and the fact that DL was just a couple of hours out of TLV and well beyond CDG when they chose to divert), I suspect that DL's decision was internal,

I'd believe that the US has credible intelligence of an immediate threat.

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