Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

fxramper · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 45):
It's not moot since UA has a 777 on the ground in TLV. They are trying to ferry it out since the revenue flight TLV-EWR was cancelled. Also 24 hour NOTAMs have a tendency to get extended. 24 hours might just be the first of multiple restrictions.

It is moot cause the FAA only prohibited revenue flights from the US to TLV for the period of 24 hrs. All carriers cancelled flights already. There is nothing that says United can't get their crew or planes out of TLV. It's two different things.

usdcaguy · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 48):
Hope this doesn't backfire but todays 5th IST-TLV TK flight just took off, 3 more to go tonight.
Also Pegasus Airlines have 3 flights between TLV-SAW tomorrow on.

For whatever reason, carriers outside the US and the EU tend to be much more aggressive at canceling flights due to "security reasons". This may be due to the high potential for litigation in those countries, where citizens have more power to sue for damages in civil court.

SCQ83 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Air France is cancelling as well... breaking news in French media.

32andBelow · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
That is eerie...Shades of 9/11

One plane diverting is not shades of 911

fxramper · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:44 pm

UA is getting their plane and all crew out of TLV at present.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL2056

readytotaxi · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:50 pm

BA continue to operate, Air France say that Wednesday Flight is a goa this far.

georgiaame · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
Delta, United, and US Airways have all cancelled flights to Israel based upon missile fears

And there, ladies and gentlemen of the world, is the Raison d'être of El Al Israel Airlines. This is not a new story by any means. Good flying, El Al!

Bobloblaw · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 9):
I know for one thing TK has 8th dailies to TLV today, its busiest route, I wonder if they will change anything.
So far, all flights are departing.

TK flies to some of the worst places. TLV is nothing

Cubsrule · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 49):
I'd believe that the US has credible intelligence of an immediate threat.

I don't disagree. When I said "internal," I perhaps should have said "not insurance-related."

airzim · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 56):
And there, ladies and gentlemen of the world, is the Raison d'être of El Al Israel Airlines. This is not a new story by any means. Good flying, El Al!

What in the world does this mean?

panamair · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
There is still a lead and even if there isn't a lead I'm certain there was a chorus from all of them immediately. That's what insurers do...reduce risk.

Reading the current policy is pretty irrelevant. This is new ground. The insurers can just revoke the policy in the interim if the airlines don't bend to their will. Am i correct they have that latitude? If the one you are reading doesn't, I'm sure plenty do.

Most if not all insurance/reinsurance contracts with airlines these days have War and Terrorism Exclusion clauses, which exempts the insurer/reinsurer from paying out if the incident was due to war or a terrorist act. Because of the volatility and huge potential payout due to losses from terrorism, most insurers have backed out of providing that coverage. As a result, many countries have terrorism pools (from a mix of government and private funding) that provide terrorism insurance (e.g., TRIA in the US, PoolRe in the UK, Gareat in France, etc.)

roseflyer · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 50):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 45):
It's not moot since UA has a 777 on the ground in TLV. They are trying to ferry it out since the revenue flight TLV-EWR was cancelled. Also 24 hour NOTAMs have a tendency to get extended. 24 hours might just be the first of multiple restrictions.

It is moot cause the FAA only prohibited revenue flights from the US to TLV for the period of 24 hrs. All carriers cancelled flights already. There is nothing that says United can't get their crew or planes out of TLV. It's two different things.

I don't know if United decided to ferry the 777 on their own or if they were forced to operate it as a non revenue ferry flight due to the NOTAM. I don't know if UA would have operated it as a revenue flight if the NOTAM had not been issued. With the NOTAM in place, UA probably doesn't know if it can keep the plane in TLV for 24 hours and operate revenue flight tomorrow or not, so it probably is best to ferry the plane out. However it is a messy situation at an airport when passengers see a plane on the ground and getting ready to go despite their flight being cancelled.

Bobloblaw · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 45):
USA airlines only or also EL Al?

EL AL NEVER cancels due to war. They operated throughout the Gulf War in 1991 and 67 and 73 Wars. That is the whole reason EL AL exists.

Pellegrine · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 8):
The flight is now diverting to CDG.

That looks like they carry a great amount of reserve fuel to be able to divert to CDG from Greece.

Ammad · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:24 pm

AA Response on the Situation.

The safety of our passengers and crew is American’s top priority. We have cancelled US Airways Flight 797 from Tel Aviv (TLV) to PHL, which was scheduled to depart from TLV at 11:30 p.m. local time, and Flight 796 from PHL to TLV, which was scheduled to depart PHL at 9:15 p.m. local time today, in response to security concerns at TLV. We are reaching out to customers and working with other airlines to reaccommodate those affected. We remain in contact with the FAA and continue to monitor the situation.
For customers with future travel plans to TLV, we have extended our travel advisory and our flexible ticketing policy through Aug. 31. Customers who choose to change their travel plans can do so without change fees.
We are ferrying our crew members out of TLV today.
The FAA will not allow us to transport customers on this flight, which is operating with a special waiver.

txlbased · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:35 pm

also airberlin stops TLV operations for the next 36 hours. affected are flights from TXL, DUS and VIE.

rdu2sfo · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:42 pm

I haven't seen it posted yet, but the reason for these changes today is that a rocket from Gaza made it through Iron Dome and fell about 1 mile from TLV. Obviously, far too close for comfort.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/wo...egion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot

32andBelow · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:43 pm

I wonder if El Al will throw on some Extras to NYC if this continues.

sw733 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 63):
That looks like they carry a great amount of reserve fuel to be able to divert to CDG from Greece.

I'd be curious if they thought this might be a chance, even if it were remote, and made sure to grab as much fuel as possible knowing that Paris would be the best place to divert, even if they went as far as the Israeli coast.

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 62):
EL AL NEVER cancels due to war. They operated throughout the Gulf War in 1991 and 67 and 73 Wars. That is the whole reason EL AL exists.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 67):
I wonder if El Al will throw on some Extras to NYC if this continues.

My suspicion is that if the FAA bans flying to TLV from the US, that affects El Al's flights from the US to TLV as well. Am I wrong?

ImperialEagle · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:57 pm

Considering the recent shoot down of the Malaysian T7 I would imagine everyone is re-thinking where their aircraft are going to fly from here on out. It's a shame that in spite of everyone's best efforts the terrorists do still get away with terrorizing.

From Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07...ghts-to-israel-over-missile-fears/

32andBelow · Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 69):
My suspicion is that if the FAA bans flying to TLV from the US, that affects El Al's flights from the US to TLV as well. Am I wrong?

Would be pointless..could just tech stop in Europe if that is the case.

AeroWesty · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 71):
Would be pointless..could just tech stop in Europe if that is the case.

The FAA could simply ban airlines based in Israel from flying to the U.S. (Not that it would, but it could.)

32andBelow · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 72):
The FAA could simply ban airlines based in Israel from flying to the U.S. (Not that it would, but it could.)

Yes I suppose the FAA count ban one of the worlds safest airlines from operating to the United States.

AR385 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:12 pm

The European Authority now has also issued a " strong recommendation" for airlines not to operate into TLV for the next 24 hrs. I hope El AL has a huge fleet.

bennett123 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:16 pm

EL AL fleet

17 B737NG
7 B747-400
6 B767-300
6 B777-200

hth

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 73):
Yes I suppose the FAA count ban one of the worlds safest airlines from operating to the United States.

What does this even mean?

The same stuff that affects American airlines will affect Israeli ones -- a rocket doesn't care. The things El Al does that make them safe aren't going to have much effect on an external threat.

bennett123 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:21 pm

The Israeli's may be prepared to accept the risk.

ImperialEagle · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:25 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 49):
I'd believe that the US has credible intelligence of an immediate threat.

Yes. I think you are right.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 74):
The European Authority now has also issued a " strong recommendation" for airlines not to operate into TLV for the next 24 hrs.

Nobody is going to risk the "I told you so".

Bobloblaw · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 76):
The things El Al does that make them safe aren't going to have much effect on an external threat.

El Al's planes have missile defense systems. Remember the Arkia 757 in Mombasa? They missed standing right under it.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
The Israeli's may be prepared to accept the risk.

Hamas doesnt not have SAMs. They are worried about an errant rocket that is fired.

flymia · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 76):
The same stuff that affects American airlines will affect Israeli ones -- a rocket doesn't care. The things El Al does that make them safe aren't going to have much effect on an external threat.

All of El Al fleet has have been equipped with an infrared countermeasures system called Flight Guard, developed by Israeli Aerospace Industries to defend them against anti-aircraft missiles. This is not a system that can protect against something such as what brought down MH-17 but it is a system that can protect El Al planes from what Hamas has.

El Al will continue to fly, no doubt about that.

[Edited 2014-07-22 12:30:25]

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
All of El Al fleet has have been equipped with an infrared countermeasures system called Flight Guard, developed by Israeli Aerospace Industries to defend them against anti-aircraft missiles. This is not a system that can protect against something such as what brought down MH-17 but it is a system that can protect El Al planes from what Hamas has.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 79):
El Al's planes have missile defense systems. Remember the Arkia 757 in Mombasa? They missed standing right under it.

Is my understanding correct, that the Hamas missiles are unguided rockets that are basically unaimed? That would suggest that they missed because they're not good at targeting, not because they were fooled by a defense system.

SCQ83 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:31 pm

I am quite surprised that BA continues to operate. I thought they would follow FAA's recommendations, specially when most European airlines have cancelled flights as well.

Tobias2702 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 57):
TK flies to some of the worst places. TLV is nothing

Anyway, Flight 788 is currently headed back to IST.

Also per flightradar24.com, the SVO-TLV flight of SU turned around.

[Edited 2014-07-22 12:41:08]

readytotaxi · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 81):
Is my understanding correct, that the Hamas missiles are unguided rockets that are basically unaimed? That would suggest that they missed because they're not good at targeting, not because they were fooled by a defense system.

I think that is the case, a lucky miss perhaps?

auroralives · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 81):
Is my understanding correct, that the Hamas missiles are unguided rockets that are basically unaimed? That would suggest that they missed because they're not good at targeting, not because they were fooled by a defense system

True... but a quick scan of Google Earth shows its at least 60km from Gaza to TLV. The fact that they know they put one "close" gives them a wealth of information to fine tune the parameters for the next shot.

DeltaMD90 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
This is not a system that can protect against something such as what brought down MH-17 but it is a system that can protect El Al planes from what Hamas has.

Not quite. IIRC, El Al's defenses are good against MANPADS. The threat, if I understand correctly, are from unguided rockets.

I'm not sure if this is an overreaction or not. Maybe there is a weak spot in Israel's defenses and there is a chance a few rockets will make it to TLV. I doubt that carriers will be barred from flying to TLV for more than a few days (or at least I hope not.)

Come to think of it, maybe the authorities have gotten word that Hamas has MANPADS. That would be disastrous for non-El Al planes (and maybe El Al planes depending on how good the anti-IR is)

iFlyLOTs · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:02 pm

What happened to Israels "Iron Dome" system?

egph · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:07 pm

Interesting to note that for the moment EZY are continuing as normal. In response to a query on their Twitter around 3 hours ago they replied they had no plans to cancel TLV flights

dtw2hyd · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 88):
What happened to Israels "Iron Dome" system?

Iron Done is very successful considering 1000+ rockets fired with one civilian death. In civil aviation context, they have to be under the dome for protection.

IMHO, this restriction is to nudge Mr. Netanyahu to sign a cease-fire agreement.

rutankrd · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 81):
Is my understanding correct, that the Hamas missiles are unguided rockets that are basically unaimed?

I understand three basic close battlefield type rockets are known to be used

Katyushka derivatives . Could be sourced from variety of places and even locally made.
These are simple short range rockets have no navigation or ranging aids can be launched from a drainpipe with a battery however in reality are pretty much a mortar shell and may not even be as destructive as those.
Might put a pot hole in a road or set a car or hay stack on fire.

These are as likely to injure or even kill the operators before any one else as they frequently fail.
They are a nuisance weapon.

Gassam rockets are similar

Grad - It is known that these lethal weapons are available however to achieve the ballistic and range capabilities a proper launcher is required. Hamas may have produced a local vehicle based or even static system and I have little doubt these are the main targets for the IDF campaign, along with the relevant command and control structures

These have the range to reach Tel-Aviv however I doubt Hamas has to many of these right now.

Caveat I am not justifying the deployment or use of rockets however they don't pose the levels or threat the IDF imply unless the numbers of Grad arsenal weapons has recently and significantly increased .

bennett123 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:20 pm

What do EL AL and Arkia do about insurance?.

airbazar · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 63):

That looks like they carry a great amount of reserve fuel to be able to divert to CDG from Greece.

Greece to TLV is about 700nm. So flying in the opposite direction that gets you to about Northern Italy on "normal" fuel before the reserves kick in. Then it's another 1.5 hours. This flight probably carries 2 hours of reserves due to the region it's flying to. Not a lot of "suitable" alternates in the area.

rutankrd · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 93):

What do EL AL and Arkia do about insurance

Pay hefty premiums and have installed defensive equipment.

Along with the national air defences particularly in the central belt their operations out of Ben Grunion imo remain relatively low risk .

flymia · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 93):
What do EL AL and Arkia do about insurance?.

Given El Al safety record the same as any other safe modern airline. Also Israel last time I checked at least still owns part of El Al so I am sure they would have government backing if they ever needed it.

Arkia is a much smaller carrier but again another one with a good safety record. No reason why a company would not insure them IMO.

rutankrd · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 94):
Greece to TLV is about 700nm. So flying in the opposite direction that gets you to about Northern Italy on "normal" fuel before the reserves kick in. Then it's another 1.5 hours. This flight probably carries 2 hours of reserves due to the region it's flying to. Not a lot of "suitable" alternates in the area.

Larnaca, Paphos or Antalya, Dalaman or Istanbul seem fitting.

bennett123 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 pm

Point I was making is are EL Al's insurers likely to be less concerned about the risks than say DL's insurers.

thegoldenargosy · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 97):
Larnaca, Paphos or Antalya, Dalaman or Istanbul seem fitting.

CDG is a major SkyTeam hub. It's probably easier to handle almost 300 pax and rebook them in CDG than in Paphos.

par13del · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:46 pm

So what does this mean in a general sense going forward?
Rockets were being fired from Gaza long before MH17 was hit and the airport remained open, so if we go by the fact that Hamas was able to lauch a rocket that is able to reach the airport - I thought Hezbollah also has such rockets - does this mean that in any cease fire negotiations the airlines and the airport are now defacto members to the negotiations?
During the last conflict with Hezbollah I do not recall if the airport was closed then, if it was not, are we now being more cautious or more concerned with safety due to the recent shoot down?

blueflyer · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 99):
CDG is a major SkyTeam hub. It's probably easier to handle almost 300 pax and rebook them in CDG than in Paphos.

Especially this time of the year when hotels in Greece, Cyprus, Malta, Italy, Turkey are (or should be) full of tourists.

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