Airlines Suspend TLV Flights Until Further Notice

egph · Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 99):
CDG is a major SkyTeam hub. It's probably easier to handle almost 300 pax and rebook them in CDG than in Paphos.

Yeah I thought CDG was chosen due to it being a major hub but I would have thought fuel wise, FCO might have been a safer bet.

GianiDC · Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:02 pm

The whole world is currently observing civil aviation. Airlines have to do everything right in these days to show the people that safety is still first.

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 99):
CDG is a major SkyTeam hub. It's probably easier to handle almost 300 pax and rebook them in CDG than in Paphos.

Agreed. But it makes me wonder. This plane, now in CDG instead of TLV is going to head back to the United States. My bet is that it will be carrying most of the passengers it held as DL468. I think this because so many airlines have decided to stop flying to TLV. Maybe, perhaps, some will stay in Paris for a few days and continue onward. But I would suspect that a lot of the passengers, at least the ones that do not permanently reside in Israel, have decided to defer their plans to visit for quite a while.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 86):
Come to think of it, maybe the authorities have gotten word that Hamas has MANPADS.

I was thinking the same thing. That Delta plane turned around when it was almost there! Really makes you wonder what happened that made them immediately stop flying.

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:16 pm

Looks like US's N281AY was ferried out. TLV-FCO.

http://www.flightradar24.com/AWE9200/3e13697

Cubsrule · Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 107):
That Delta plane turned around when it was almost there! Really makes you wonder what happened that made them immediately stop flying.

I wonder if DL had questions about a potential diversion on departure. That could explain them perhaps having extra fuel that allowed them to divert to CDG.

Koosi · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:19 pm

No cancelations out of PRG tonight. The 10:50 PM Travel Service (SmartWings) flight (QS 1286 / OK 5288) sat at the gate for quite some time but is now in the air. The 11:50 CSA flight (OK 286 / QS 8286) is taxiing right now. Wizz Air canceled the morning flight though (W6 2791). Up by El Al is not affected.

JFKMan · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:36 pm

I dont agree with this move by the FAA. I think its over caution caused by MH 17.

This is just being way too cautious when its really not needed.

2travel2know2 · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting auroralives (Reply 85):
True... but a quick scan of Google Earth shows its at least 60km from Gaza to TLV. The fact that they know they put one "close" gives them a wealth of information to fine tune the parameters for the next shot.

When Iraq was firing rockets to Israel, Israel did whatever possible to avoid disclosing where the rockets had landed. Of course, there was no social media then.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 94):
Greece to TLV is about 700nm. So flying in the opposite direction that gets you to about Northern Italy on "normal" fuel before the reserves kick in. Then it's another 1.5 hours. This flight probably carries 2 hours of reserves due to the region it's flying to. Not a lot of "suitable" alternates in the area.

Too close to TLV, only VDA, AMM, CAI, ALY, TCP, SSH may qualify as "suitable".. however for the TLV-bound passengers (not necessarily the airline) VDA might be the most acceptable diversion of those.

D L X · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 114):

I dont agree with this move by the FAA. I think its over caution caused by MH 17.

This is just being way too cautious when its really not needed.

In your opinion, when a rocket launched by a hostile force lands near airport property, what level of caution is needed?

Vio · Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:47 pm

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this above. I tried to search for it. Air Canada also suspended its flights to TLV today and tomorrow I believe.

toobz · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 114):

What? Didn't Netanyahu just go on a media tour in the US saying how they are being attacked daily with missiles?? And then damn near in the same breathe he doesn't understand why airlines are pulling out of there? Isn't the reason Israel gave to ramp up there military operations in the Gaza Strip because they are being fearsly attacked? That's what he said. Makes perfect sense to not fly there.

N1120A · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 12):
Tell me why not? I think you underestimate the power of insurance companies and their unwillingness to pay claims.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 37):

I wonder why they diverted to Paris ? Becuase it was a Skyteam hub ?

Almost certainly. It just makes sense. They can send people back to the US on the largest variety of on-alliance flights, Delta has plenty of metal there, it is a short train ride from AMS, it is almost twice as busy as FCO, etc.

You underestimate the power of regulators to tell insurance companies where to shove it, where they have the will. The FAA is a regulator that does a great job and has sharp teeth.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 39):
Regulators have the real teeth in this business.

Yup.

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
Actually FAA just banned U.S. flights from TLV. So there's also that.

Yeah, that has a lot more to do with it than insurance.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 54):
UA is getting their plane and all crew out of TLV at present.

Its unfortunate they can't get their PAX out.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 63):
That looks like they carry a great amount of reserve fuel to be able to divert to CDG from Greece.

That's not a huge divert. They still had further to fly anyway.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 73):
Yes I suppose the FAA count ban one of the worlds safest airlines from operating to the United States.

As opposed to the United States' own, significantly larger, extremely safe airlines?

Quoting EGPH (Reply 103):
Yeah I thought CDG was chosen due to it being a major hub but I would have thought fuel wise, FCO might have been a safer bet.

CDG makes more sense for a lot of reasons. One of them is that it has a lot of flights to/from the Middle East.

Quoting d l x (Reply 107):
Agreed. But it makes me wonder. This plane, now in CDG instead of TLV is going to head back to the United States. My bet is that it will be carrying most of the passengers it held as DL468. I think this because so many airlines have decided to stop flying to TLV. Maybe, perhaps, some will stay in Paris for a few days and continue onward. But I would suspect that a lot of the passengers, at least the ones that do not permanently reside in Israel, have decided to defer their plans to visit for quite a while.

I'd imagine that they will soak up some PAX that come out of Israel and the environs as well.

JFKMan · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:31 am

All I'm going to say is.... would BA and LH had halted flights had the US carriers not done so?

EL and multiple others are still flying in and out of TLV and I don't blame them. The missiles we are talking about are nothing comparable to what brought down MH17.

Viscount724 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 72):
The FAA could simply ban airlines based in Israel from flying to the U.S. (Not that it would, but it could.)

Don't think the FAA has the authority to do that. Legally, the U.S.-Israel bilateral would have to be rescinded, meaning the end of air service between the two countries, but that normally requires one year's notice when done unilaterally.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 79):
El Al's planes have missile defense systems. Remember the Arkia 757 in Mombasa? They missed standing right under it.

Don't believe that aircraft had any anti-missile defenses. It just missed.

evomutant · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 79):
El Al's planes have missile defense systems. Remember the Arkia 757 in Mombasa? They missed standing right under it.

Which won't do a thing against a ballistic rocket that has no guidance technology in at all- the exact kind Hamas are lobbing in the direction of Tel-Aviv.

Bobloblaw · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting evomutant (Reply 125):
Which won't do a thing against a ballistic rocket that has no guidance technology in at all- the exact kind Hamas are lobbing in the direction of Tel-Aviv.

Hamas rockets aren't ballistic.

D L X · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 122):
All I'm going to say is.... would BA and LH had halted flights had the US carriers not done so?

That's really not an answer to the question posed. What level of caution is needed when a rocket hits near the airport?

Yes, BA and LH and the myriad other airlines would have halted flights as well. It's not like Britain and Germany (and Canada, and France, and even Russia for cryin' out loud!) can't think for themselves.

IndianicWorld · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:00 am

Better to be safe than sorry, especially after the MH17 tragedy.

Another event that brings down an aircraft like that will have huge repercussions for aviation, creating issues for business and tourism globally.

Lets hope that a peaceful solution can be reached to this ongoing situation.

trex8 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:04 am

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 126):
Unsure as to why anyone would want to go there in the first place

You were being sarcastic correct? Because Israel has almost twice the population of NZ and is much closer to major population centers, one should ask who would want to go to AKL!

wstakl · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 128):
one should ask who would want to go to AKL!

Last time I checked our neighbors weren't lobbing rockets into our back yard.

[Edited 2014-07-22 19:22:48]

ltbewr · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:28 am

As to the USA based airlines - in no way does our government want to lose or have damaged an USA airliner or anyone killed or injured from a missile in Israel right now for obvious political reasons.
Hopefully this was about the only dumb missile the Palestinians have that could reach that far, I think the reason for firing this missile was to scare the hell out of Israel and the world and it seemed to work. I do hope that this suspension is only for 1-2 days or it will be 'giving in to the terrorists'.

IndianicWorld · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 128):
You were being sarcastic correct? Because Israel has almost twice the population of NZ and is much closer to major population centers, one should ask who would want to go to AKL!

I would hope his comment had more to do with not sure why anyone would want to travel into the country with a battle going on.In that case, I agree that its hard to image how inbound travel would be high at a time like this, however outbound demand could be higher.

If his comment had a deeper underlying reasoning then I fail to agree on that.

Viscount724 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:34 am

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 129):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 128):
one should ask who would want to go to AKL!

Last time I checked our neighbors weren't lobbing rockets into our back yard.

Israel has been through many events like this before and traffic always bounces back quickly after the situation returns to normal. Apart from the usual VFR traffic, Israel has become a very popular leisure destination even for weekend trips from Europe with the growth of low-cost carrier service.

aa87 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:39 am

Congrats to all. An entire thread on this topic without a single overheated, off-topic political comment. Either the moderators are working overtime or the kiddies are all offline.

Seriously, whether right or wrong call by FAA, this is part of the new reality. Civil aviation is changing before our very eyes, and not in good ways. MH17 really shook me up, and I remember KAL007. We're living in an age of uprecedented assymetry in warfare and aviation is not and never has been exempt. Even though actual risk is pretty remote, fact is Hamas is targeting TLV and will continue to try to do so, until the inevitable cease-fire. Given everything, I can't second guess FAA on this one.

maxamuus · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 130):
this missile was to scare the hell out of Israel and the world and it seemed to work.

Sorry, but that lone missile didnt scare the hell out of Israel. Israel is not afraid of cheap surplus thrown their way. The Israeli's are not a fearful people. You try to scare the hell out of them, and they will punch you in the face and make you regret it. Proof of that is EL AL is running a airline like any other day of the week. They are a airline prepared for this every day so they dont need to react to it. They are always ready.

mayor · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 68):
I'd be curious if they thought this might be a chance, even if it were remote, and made sure to grab as much fuel as possible knowing that Paris would be the best place to divert, even if they went as far as the Israeli coast.

I'm sure they have a standard alternate airport if necessary. I wonder what it is for this flight?

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
All of El Al fleet has have been equipped with an infrared countermeasures system called Flight Guard, developed by Israeli Aerospace Industries to defend them against anti-aircraft missiles. This is not a system that can protect against something such as what brought down MH-17 but it is a system that can protect El Al planes from what Hamas has.

I don't imagine this helps much if the a/c is on the ground and since this rocket hit the ground about a mile from the airport, maybe this is their worry.

AeroWesty · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:36 am

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 120):
All I'm going to say is.... would BA and LH had halted flights had the US carriers not done so?

BA163 left for TLV last night, late due to MX, but it still flew. Expected to land TLV at 8:09am.

hufftheweevil · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 63):
That looks like they carry a great amount of reserve fuel to be able to divert to CDG from Greece.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 94):
Greece to TLV is about 700nm. So flying in the opposite direction that gets you to about Northern Italy on "normal" fuel before the reserves kick in. Then it's another 1.5 hours. This flight probably carries 2 hours of reserves due to the region it's flying to. Not a lot of "suitable" alternates in the area.

Interestingly enough, US dispatched their PHL-TLV flight on Monday with 20K pounds more fuel than usual. I was in the control room when the fuel slip printed and we all remarked how it was much higher than usual.

TheMSYGuy · Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 126):
Unsure

Ever heard of the Holy Land? Lots of people go there.

Besides, Jerusalem doesn't have an airport.

Mir · Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:19 am

If there are rockets firing at TLV, then it makes sense not to try and land there. Hopefully the flights get restored quickly - it would put the FAA in a difficult position if things started to drag out and they were accused of caving to terrorism.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 124):
Hamas rockets aren't ballistic.

They absolutely are - all artillery is ballistic.

-Mir

Capt.Fantastic · Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:26 am

Since there's a raging conflict in the region, and TLV has been targeted, I believe the FAA did the prudent thing.
I don't see their action as "overly cautious"- just cautious- and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's better to be safe than sorry; at least until things cool down.

Wishing safe travels to all.

D L X · Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:38 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 124):

Quoting evomutant (Reply 125):
Which won't do a thing against a ballistic rocket that has no guidance technology in at all- the exact kind Hamas are lobbing in the direction of Tel-Aviv.

Hamas rockets aren't ballistic.

They're not guided, so that makes them ballistic. That's what I was trying to get at earlier when I was pointing out that the anti-missile devices El Al might have would be useless against these. It wouldn't be much different from someone throwing a ball at the plane. The plane can't make the ball change course.

4xear · Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:36 am

It seems that US is resuming flights to TLV. I drove past the airport at TLV yesterday and did not see anything out of the ordinary. One missile that manages to get past the Iron Dome defense system and land on a house in a town near the airport does not mean that the airport is under attack. The airport is one of the safest and well-defended airports in the world.

Former NY mayor Bloomberg is on his way to TLV to show that it is safe. It also seems that the airport at VDA (Ovda) about 50 km north of Eilat will be activated as an alternative airport. The terminal is very small and the apron will only be able to accommodate 4 aircraft at a time.

4xear

4xear · Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:45 am

Update regarding my previous post:

Press conference of the Israeli transport minister: VDA will be opened up to incoming and outgoing traffic from 12 noon (local).

According to the minster, there was no reason to close Ben Gurion airport, even with regard to FAA standards.

aerorobnz · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:15 am

Entertain a mental exercise for a moment... What would be the implications if this was a more long term ban?

Bobloblaw · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:56 am

[quote=Mir,reply=]
The Hamas missiles have a low trejectory. Th

aircatalonia · Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:02 am

Is this a normal flight path for EK or are they avoiding the conflict in Gaza?

EL-AL · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:37 pm

John Kerry's 757 just landed in TLV airport. I wonder how come the Americans think its safe enought for him to land there but for other passengers it is not.

If the airport was indeed unsafe they could have fly him in a halicopter from CAI or even by car from AMM.

GianiDC · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:37 pm

I think i have read here that Emirates never flies over Israel?

[Edited 2014-07-23 05:38:10]

[Edited 2014-07-23 05:38:37]

4xear · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 145):

From Beirut there would be two alternatives flying east. Either the one you illustrated or one that takes you west and then south towards El Arish and Taba and then further east over Saudi Arabia. I do not know whether there is a NOTAM regarding the airspace around the Gaza strip. On normal days there is a very active route along the Israeli-Egyptian border, several NM within Egyptian territory.

4xear

LondonCity · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:43 pm

Looks as though the cancellations, for the European airlines at least, are continuingf. Nils Haupt (@nilshaupt) who is the Americas PR chief for Lufthansa has tweeted to say that the Lufthansa Group is cancelling 20 (twenty) flights to TLV on July 24.

AeroWesty · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 146):

John Kerry's 757 just landed in TLV airport. I wonder how come the Americans think its safe enought for him to land there but for other passengers it is not.

Not even comparable. John Kerry is there in service to his country arriving on an Air Force plane.

vv701 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:50 pm

This morning (23 July) BA165 LHR-TLV departed 22 minutes late at 09:12 BST and is now expected to arrive at 16:09 local (14:09 BST).

Inward bound BA162 (TLV-LHR) departed 121 minutes late at 09:31 local (07:31 BST) and arrived 122 minutes late at 12:57 BST.

jayunited · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:06 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 146):
John Kerry's 757 just landed in TLV airport. I wonder how come the Americans think its safe enought for him to land there but for other passengers it is not.

If the airport was indeed unsafe they could have fly him in a halicopter from CAI or even by car from AMM.

Not even the same thing. The aircraft John Kerry arrived on is no a civilian type 757 it is a military Air Force 757 that has defensive countermeasures on board. Putting the Secretary of State in a helicopter or even worse a car would be far more dangerous than just having him land at TLV.

However as it stands right now UA is planning to operate both of their flights to TLV on today Wednesday July 23 because the 24 hour ban will be over by the time those flights arrive in TLV.

Thenoflyzone · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:06 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 80):
All of El Al fleet has have been equipped with an infrared countermeasures system called Flight Guard, developed by Israeli Aerospace Industries to defend them against anti-aircraft missiles. This is not a system that can protect against something such as what brought down MH-17 but it is a system that can protect El Al planes from what Hamas has.

El Al will continue to fly, no doubt about that.

Quoting d l x (Reply 140):
They're not guided, so that makes them ballistic. That's what I was trying to get at earlier when I was pointing out that the anti-missile devices El Al might have would be useless against these. It wouldn't be much different from someone throwing a ball at the plane. The plane can't make the ball change course.

Since Flight Guard raised safety concerns around the world, especially by the FAA and the Swiss, The Israeli government decided to buy a laser-based jamming system called Multi-Spectral Infrared Countermeasure (MUSIC) which began development in 2008, that does not use flares. But even this system is aimed at heat-seeking missiles and is pretty useless against the ballistic Qassam rockets that are launched from Gaza.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 88):
What happened to Israels "Iron Dome" system?

These last few weeks, at least one thousand + rockets were fired into Israel. Iron Dome managed to intercept only a small percentage of those (10-25%).

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-07-23 06:16:48]

LondonCity · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:14 pm

The Lufthansa Group cancellations for July 24, as mentioned above, have now been confirmed by Reuters.

www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/u...es-lufthansa-idUSKBN0FS19R20140723

LY777 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 75):
EL AL fleet17 B737NG7 B747-4006 B767-3006 B777-200hth

To be exact:
20 737NG (2 73G, 15 73H, 3 73E)
6 744 pax, plus 1 744F
6 763
6 77E

trex8 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 150):

Not even comparable. John Kerry is there in service to his country arriving on an Air Force plane.

Plus its probably got a whole self defense system with DIRCM, chaff, flares and probably even radar jammer.

ozark1 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:25 pm

Delta is such a class act. They suspended flights even before the FAA order. They are just consistently impressing me.

PHX787 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:37 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 53):
One plane diverting is not shades of 911

The flight path is.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 146):
John Kerry's 757 just landed in TLV airport. I wonder how come the Americans think its safe enought for him to land there but for other passengers it is not.

I heard he had an escort.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 157):
Delta is such a class act. They suspended flights even before the FAA order. They are just consistently impressing me.

From my experiences, usually airlines suspend flights due to a certain issue before the FAA issues an order. See also-JL and NH suspending 787 ops before the FAA grounds it.

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