Timaay419
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LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:08 pm

Good to see this moving forward. This approval is for Phase 1 which is the northern section of the midfield satellite adding 11 gates. Phase 2 to the south is still in the planning stage but will add 17 gates to bring the total to 28 gates when fully complete. Eventually there will be a tunnel and people mover, but according to the article bussing will still be necessary in the interim.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ourse-approved-20140721-story.html
 
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ua900
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:15 pm

Exciting times for LAX. Looks like someone is bringing back the satellite concept if it has a tunnel. Perhaps that’s the way to go at LAX, connecting tunnels everywhere. With new architecture, it should become an even better airport. Hope the legacy terminals will all see a refresh as well.

[Edited 2014-07-22 14:16:29]
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wanderlustlax
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:38 pm

Would've loved to have seen that sky bridge come to fruition -- as nonsensical as it may have been. The inner airport geek in me could only imagine what it'd be like to walk over that thing and see jumbos taxiing below you.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:10 pm

Why not build the entire terminal all at once? I don't understand the logic. There is obviously a huge demand for wide-body gates so it shouldn't be a problem with usage. Also, wouldn't it be cheaper to do it all at once instead of waiting a few years. Then the cost will definitely have increased. Also, by doing it all at one time elimates the risk of "phase 2" becoming a political issue dragging on for years and years. Look at AA's terminal in JFK. They made drastic changes and its nowhere near what it should have been. Would the second phase mean the other gates would "aesthetically match" with phase one. Americans are famous for coming up with great proposals but end up with a hodge-podge of designs . Is a people-mover also necessary? couldn't moving walkways be sufficient?
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IFlyTWA
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Why not build the entire terminal all at once?

The American Airlines maintenance operation would be impacted as their SuperBay hangar is directly in the path of Phase II. AA has already lost their Low Bay hangar, and their TWA hangar has a year and a half left 'till demolition.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Why not build the entire terminal all at once? I don't understand the logic. There is obviously a huge demand for wide-body gates so it shouldn't be a problem with usage. Also, wouldn't it be cheaper to do it all at once instead of waiting a few years. Then the cost will definitely have increased. Also, by doing it all at one time elimates the risk of "phase 2" becoming a political issue dragging on for years and years. Look at AA's terminal in JFK. They made drastic changes and its nowhere near what it should have been. Would the second phase mean the other gates would "aesthetically match" with phase one. Americans are famous for coming up with great proposals but end up with a hodge-podge of designs . Is a people-mover also necessary? couldn't moving walkways be sufficient?

Money, demolition of existing structures, airfield disruption etc all factor into why projects like this are done in stages. This isn't a blank piece of open ground but an extremely busy international airport and the intent is to minimize disruption to air ops whenever possible.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:43 pm

Due to size and scale of the proposed MSC and the associated cumulative environmental impacts which require mitigation its more feasible to build it in sections. Basically build a portion and see how traffic and usage develops.

More specifically what was approved yesterday:
o A concourse of up to 11 gates available for domestic and or international use and associated facilities;
o Additional taxiways and taxilanes;
o A ramp tower or Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) supplemental traffic control tower to control aircraft movement around the concourse facility and associated airfield;
o Tunnel facilties to provide a connection between the MSC and the Central Terminal Area (CTA) for baggage, and utilities;
o Utilities that support the MSC North Project;
o Enabling projects required to implement the MSC North Project include demolition and relocation of existing structures, removal of eight remain overnight aircraft parking spaces, demolition and relocation of FAA navigational aids, and removal and /or relocation of existing utility lines.


Concurrently with opening of MSC number of West Remote Gates/Pads will be removed from service to maintain overall airfield passenger gate count.
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N1120A
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Why not build the entire terminal all at once?

Swallowing the cost as a single pill can be difficult. Further, as others have said, there would be really significantly disruptions to the operation.
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ldvaviation
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:47 am

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Why not build the entire terminal all at once?

Good question.

Because of concerns about cost and financing, LAWA split the project into two phases.

At the time of program inception, the thinking was that they were not going to study the second phase until the first phase was complete.

That thinking has changed.

LAWA is now actively planning for the second phase. The biggest physical impediment in the way of Phase II is the AA Hanger. LAWA and AA are discussing options for replacing it and other considerations.

With the pace of planning now, a decision to proceed with Phase II could come before construction is complete on Phase I.

(The second phase of the MSC is not likely to become a political issue. It was approved by the stipulated settlement with the NIMBY's.

As to the design, I would not be concerned with the second phase matching the first. I would be concerned with the first phase matching TBIT West. Hopefully, the designer/architect who teams with the winning builder respects the precedent set by TBIT West.)
 
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LAXintl
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
LAWA and AA are discussing options for replacing it and other considerations.

LAWA just approved $79mil for construction of the West Aircraft Maintenance Area Project. This likely will be AA's new home.
Its a shrink from current AA facilities, but AA has been in process of reducing work at LAX anyhow with removal of the 767 checks so it might be sufficient.

Also UA has yet to finalize their hangar needs which might play a part in whats available.
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:49 pm

This is a pleasant surprise. I expected delays... I'm not sure what to say as I'm not used to expansion being done at LAX at a reasonable pace...  

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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
removal of eight remain overnight aircraft parking spaces,

Northpad?
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ldvaviation
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
LAWA just approved $79mil for construction of the West Aircraft Maintenance Area Project. This likely will be AA's new home.
Its a shrink from current AA facilities, but AA has been in process of reducing work at LAX anyhow with removal of the 767 checks so it might be sufficient.

LAWA was "hoping" that would be the case. The guidance from AA has changed.

(As an indication of that fact, listen to the comments of Steve Martin at the recent Board meeting. He mentions a "permanent home" for the facility. He even says that it is an "important part of the operation" for AA, with 20 to 30 planes being serviced every night.)
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Its a shrink from current AA facilities,

Does this translate into more TBIT gates or a MSC presence for AA?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
but AA has been in process of reducing work at LAX anyhow with removal of the 767 checks so it might be sufficient.

That seems to counter the plan to make LAX a gateway.
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LAXintl
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 12):
LAWA was "hoping" that would be the case. The guidance from AA has changed.
(As an indication of that fact, listen to the comments of Steve Martin at the recent Board meeting. He mentions a "permanent home" for the facility. He even says that it is an "important part of the operation" for AA, with 20 to 30 planes being serviced every night.)

Yeah that why I mentioned what happens with United facilities might have a role here for AA.

UA wants to consolidate but neither former CO or UA facilities offers enough combined room. There was an idea floated to lease UA the new West facility once complete to allow them to consolidate, and let AA take the old UA facilities on the East side of the field. Only problem is no additional hangars can be built and AA wanted a fully enclosed facility which the former UA facilities don't provide.
Plan C idea was to lease AA the old Western Westbay hangar as part of the old UA facility which are on only month to month leases to DL which would solve AA's desire for enclosed space.

Time will tell....

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 13):
That seems to counter the plan to make LAX a gateway.

Gateway and maintenance base are two separate things.

Part of the AMR BK, they realigned lots maintenance activities which included reducing staffing and work activity at LAX. Network wide lots of stuff was either outsourced, or consolidated into TUL.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 13):
Does this translate into more TBIT gates or a MSC presence for AA?

Depending on the timing, its actually United which might have dibs on some MSC gates.
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kaitak744
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:46 pm

This is stupid.... what LAX needs at this point is more checkin area / baggage claim space, not more gates.
The TBIT main building is overcrowded. They added more gates while keeping this the same.... what did they think will happen?

It seems people at LAWA cannot do simple math.
 
kaitak744
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:52 pm

http://www.lawa.org/uploadedFiles/Ou...iption_of_the_Proposed_Project.pdf

Details of the project^

The 11 gates will be 4 group VI gates, 4 group V gates, and 3 group III gates.

What really should be done is create a new checkin hall in the place of terminal 3 or 2, and connect this via underground tunnel.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:38 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 13):
That seems to counter the plan to make LAX a gateway.

As I said, the guidance from AA has changed. (Corporate now considers the hangar a "strategic" asset.)

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 13):
Does this translate into more TBIT gates or a MSC presence for AA?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Depending on the timing, its actually United which might have dibs on some MSC gates.

AA has its eyes on the the southeast gates at TBIT, the ones that are closest to T4 and the future connector. The thinking at the moment is that the MSC should open up those gates for AA.

As to United's claim on MSC gates, there was never a deal. There was, however, some informal connection between UA agreeing to give up the gates at T6 in return for use of the MCS. However, UA may have screwed things up by leasing the T6 gates to AA. (It just confirmed what LAWA thought UA was doing with the gates all along.)

At the moment, LAWA is maintaining its stance that the MSC will be used much like the remote gates are now for overflow and to cover for any gates that are temporarily out of service. I doubt any airline will get preferential use of any of them.

With Phase 2, however, the thinking is that under the current gate cap certain "considerations" will have to be made.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
o A ramp tower or Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) supplemental traffic control tower to control aircraft movement around the concourse facility and associated airfield;

Interesting. That ought to eliminate the ATC Non-Vis areas that currently exist to the west of TBIT. Maybe not a prime consideration, but beneficial.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:56 pm

Havent had time to look at all the stuff. One question that I have...where will Customs/FIS for this terminal be handled? Handled in the new terminal or through a secure connector bus/shuttle to TBIT?
 
kaitak744
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 19):
Havent had time to look at all the stuff. One question that I have...where will Customs/FIS for this terminal be handled? Handled in the new terminal or through a secure connector bus/shuttle to TBIT?

Under this link:
http://www.lawa.org/uploadedFiles/Ou...iption_of_the_Proposed_Project.pdf

The concourse (it is not a terminal in its own right) will have 2 lounges, and provisions for future FIS facilities. It will also have secure arrivals access on to an automated people mover, which by the looks of this document is part of phase 1.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 20):
automated people mover, which by the looks of this document is part of phase 1.


Negative - MSC Phase 1 will be all bus operation. Facility will be built with future APM level, but that wont come into use until Phase 2.

More specifically look under scope of work in section 2.5.2

Ability to accommodate point-to-point busing operation and future automated people mover (APM) connections

Also 2.5.2.2.
Passengers would access the MSC North building by airfield buses powered by clean fuel, travelling between existing CRA terminal facility and the MSC North building.
Passengers would obtain tickets, check luggage, and be screened by security at existing passenger terminal within the CTA and would be bused to and from existing bus gates located within these terminals. One or more bus stations would be integrated to be part of the MSC North building.




Also mentioned in LA Times article

The project will add gates for the largest jetliners in service and eventually eliminate the airport's remote gates that require passengers to deplane into the open and take buses to Bradley's immigration, customs and baggage claim areas.

Although plans for the new concourse include a tunnel to Bradley for international travelers, some passengers will still have to be bused to other terminals until a proposed people-mover is built.

Airport officials say, however, that bus trips from the new concourse will be much shorter than those from the remote gates, which are almost 1 1/2 miles west of the Bradley.

There were proposals for a bridge to link the midfield concourse to the Bradley, but airport officials said the idea was dropped because of the tail height of the Airbus A380, one of the largest jetliners in the world.



The only tunnel being built initially will be for baggage, and utilities.


Also for FIS, it will take place at the current(new) TBIT facility.
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MAH4546
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:44 pm

AA got LAX to agree to consider the Eagle gates as "mainline" gates when it comes to swapping gates. It will definitely have it's eye on geting Midfield gates (or more TBIT gates as TBIT tenants go to Midfield).
a.
 
wanderlustlax
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Would the second phase mean the other gates would "aesthetically match" with phase one
Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I would be concerned with the first phase matching TBIT West.

All good points. I seem to recall, in the initial renderings, that this looked EXACTLY like TBIT West. I had originally thought it was actually technically just an addition to TBIT West based on the look.

Is that up for debate now? Why would they ever choose a different aesthetic. I know when it comes to LAWA asking 'why' sometimes is moot, but I'm still asking it. Would they even entertain a notion of a different design for this building?
 
aviationaware
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:50 am

What's with that North Concourse replacing Terminals 1-3? When is that coming along, and the new facilities in place of the car parks?
 
NickLAX
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 16):
What really should be done is create a new checkin hall in the place of terminal 3 or 2, and connect this via underground tunnel.

LAWA did announce more kiosks... Issue is NOT all airlines use the current ones. I've yet to use any of the TBIT Kiosks as neither SQ, NH or OZ seems to have any of their common user software for kiosks in that program. Seems to be KL, LH and CX mainly?

The entire lobby needs a redo to first line common user kiosks and bag drop lanes to specific airlines and LIMITED agent assisted (maybe premium, etc). There is significant room in the TBIT checkin building but current layout isn't optimal to scale and it's been designed for agent assisted with long lines.

Needs a reset on design for higher capacity but in all honesty I don't see LAWA as bleeding edge for this kind of stuff.
 
kaitak744
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RE: LAX $900M 11 Gate Midfield Concourse Approved

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 25):
LAWA did announce more kiosks... Issue is NOT all airlines use the current ones. I've yet to use any of the TBIT Kiosks as neither SQ, NH or OZ seems to have any of their common user software for kiosks in that program. Seems to be KL, LH and CX mainly?

At TBIT, there are 6 rows of checkin desks. Each row can handle about 3 747 loads at a given time. If the check in desks are open for 2 hours, that means that the checkin area at TBIT can handle 9 747 loads per hour.

There are 16 Group V and VI gates at TBIT. Assuming a flight can depart each gate every 1.5 hours, that is 10.6 Group V or VI departures per hour.

The checkin area is pretty much as capacity, and all the new A380 flights are not making it any better...

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