Could The Crew Of WN 4013 Fly Again

747400sp · Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:13 pm

Well we all know about how a Southwest plane landed at the wrong airport which was not built to handle a 737 size plane, and the plane had to use hard brakes to stop. WN had to charter some motor coaches to site where the plane stopped. The next day, the plane flew to Fort Worth so that the NTSB could do their investagation.
Now I wonder, seeing that nobody got hurt in this accident, could WN have mercy on these pilots and let them fly again? Look, people makes mistakes, and I feel these pilot should get a second chance.

n471wn · Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:52 pm

These pilots did....as for the female captain who did the nose first landing at La Guardia and destroyed the a/c she was fired

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:55 pm

WN pilots are covered by a union and CBA. Management would want to have a solid case against an employee with union protection because of the costs associated with fighting to have the termination upheld once the union tries to protect the employee. Unless there is severe negligence or a history of problems the employee will likely be let off the hook with extra training or a suspension of some kind.

trex8 · Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
These pilots did....as for the female captain who did the nose first landing at La Guardia and destroyed the a/c she was fired

In this day and age is the sex of the pilot relevant??

n471wn · Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 3):
In this day and age is the sex of the pilot relevant??

perhaps not but others found it interesting.....

prosa · Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:39 pm

It's irrelevant as far as the first officer is concerned, as he has retired.

travaz · Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:57 pm

I thought i read that the FO was retired and the Captain got some retraining and a little time off and is back on line.

n471wn · Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting travaz (Reply 6):
thought i read that the FO was retired and the Captain got some retraining and a little time off and is back on line.

which incident are you referring to?

newhaven · Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:10 am

[quote=747400sp,reply=0] Look, people makes mistakes, and I feel these pilot should get a second chance

[/quote

"LOOK, PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES AND SHOULD GET A SECOND CHANCE" !!??!

No.... sorry . this not like a cashier making a mistake on a cash register ..... or a car wash employee forgetting to buff a hub cap

... this FOOL landed at the wrong airport and could easily have killed people .... they should NOT get a second chance.

Buh- Byeeee!

spudsmac · Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:55 am

Quoting newhaven (Reply 8):
LOOK, PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES AND SHOULD GET A SECOND CHANCE" !!??!

No.... sorry . this not like a cashier making a mistake on a cash register ..... or a car wash employee forgetting to buff a hub cap

... this FOOL landed at the wrong airport and could easily have killed people .... they should NOT get a second chance.

Buh- Byeeee!

So you've never made a mistake at work before? Pilots are as human as you and I. Someone makes a mistake, you investigate the reason and if it's something re-trainable, you retrain them and return them to line flying.

You want to know what two pilots will never land at the wrong airport for the rest of their career? Send the ones who already did it.

copter808 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting newhaven (Reply 8):
No.... sorry . this not like a cashier making a mistake on a cash register ..... or a car wash employee forgetting to buff a hub cap

... this FOOL landed at the wrong airport and could easily have killed people .... they should NOT get a second chance.

Buh- Byeeee!

Damn, I hate people who are so perfect they never make mistakes!!!!! If we fired everyone who ever made a mistake there would only be a few of you perfect people to make mistakes later! Wouldn't it be far better to investigate why mistakes are made in an effort to prevent similar incidents in the future?

If everyone who makes a mistake is afraid they will be fired, it's highly unlikely the true causes will ever come out. That's one of the things that sets aviation aside from other fields--but the lawyers are doing their best to destroy that too.

molitvic20 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:50 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):

She was not fired, after the incident the FAA threw her in the simulator and tested her through all the books and she passed with flying colors, the FAA told Southwest there was nothing wrong with her flying abilities. That wasn't enough for Southwest, so they offered her $2 million for her to leave the company, I heard she requested $7 million. Not sure if it ever went through though.

liftsifter · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:19 am

Yes- we all make mistakes. However, we don't all land at airports where the aircraft landing can't really be handled.

We can't all be held to the same standard. Some of us do the check in on the ground, some of us fly the plane. We both accept different responsibilities, it just so happens that the pilot's responsibility is a bit more encompassing.

I hope that the pilots lost their licenses and were fired. There's no room for error like this in the aviation industry. None, whatsoever.

DiamondFlyer · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 12):
I hope that the pilots lost their licenses and were fired. There's no room for error like this in the aviation industry. None, whatsoever.

Thankfully, you don't make the rules. Because, if safety was ran the way you are advocating for, no pilot would ever self report ANYTHING, so we'd never know where there are actual problems with training and operational issues. I'm quite sure they didn't lose their certificates.

-DiamondFlyer

arffguy · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:53 am

Quoting newhaven (Reply 8):
... this FOOL landed at the wrong airport and could easily have killed people .... they should NOT get a second chance.

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 12):
I hope that the pilots lost their licenses and were fired. There's no room for error like this in the aviation industry. None, whatsoever.

I had an instructor once, that said: "Show me someone who has never made a mistake and I will show you someone who hasn't done anything."

By your standards, nobody could keep a job in this world.

doug_or · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:56 am

Quoting molitvic20 (Reply 11):
She was not fired, after the incident the FAA threw her in the simulator and tested her through all the books and she passed with flying colors, the FAA told Southwest there was nothing wrong with her flying abilities. That wasn't enough for Southwest, so they offered her $2 million for her to leave the company, I heard she requested $7 million. Not sure if it ever went through though.

Where did you hear that?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...er-nose-first-landing-at-laguardia

airbuster · Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting newhaven (Reply 8):
[quote=747400sp,reply=0] Look, people makes mistakes, and I feel these pilot should get a second chance

[/quote

"LOOK, PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES AND SHOULD GET A SECOND CHANCE" !!??!

No.... sorry . this not like a cashier making a mistake on a cash register ..... or a car wash employee forgetting to buff a hub cap

... this FOOL landed at the wrong airport and could easily have killed people .... they should NOT get a second chance.

Buh- Byeeee!

I have a book in my flight bag that gives background info on the 737. It starts with a cartoon that goes like this:

Young FO: "Captain, how come you make so few mistakes!?"
Captain: "That's experience!"
Young FO: "And how did you get that experience?"
Captain: "By making many mistakes!"

Though the mistake the guys made landing at the wrong airport is severe, I doubt it was their intent to do so. You could say it was on the verge of gross negligence but anyhow firing them or terminating their license has little effect on enhancing safety.

vfw614 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:50 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 15):
Where did you hear that?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...er-nose-first-landing-at-laguardia

Maybe they went to court over the dismissal and it ended in a settlement involving a severance package - the article also states:

Quote:
"The union will “ensure the terminated pilot receives their right to due process,”

pvjin · Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:16 am

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 12):
I hope that the pilots lost their licenses and were fired. There's no room for error like this in the aviation industry. None, whatsoever.

Yeah, let's fire everyone who makes a mistake That way we'll make sure nobody will report mistakes in the future because of being afraid of losing his/her job, thus flaws within procedures will go unnoticed until someone's mistake finally has fatal consequences.

Think before you write, firing anyone who makes a mistake will result in a culture of fear and silence which will eventually be very bad for aviation safety.

AzoresLover · Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:03 am

I'm on the side of looking at his total record, and if appropriate keep him in the air, for the reasons others have said here. Maybe some other old-timers like me will remember this incident:

Late 1960's. Eastern Airlines hourly shuttle DC-NYC-BOS. It was flown with Electras, and was transitioning to DC-9s. When reviewing pilot records in prep for training them on the DC-9, it was discovered that one of their pilots who had flown with them for years did not have so much as a PPL...absolutely no training or ratings at all. Yet somehow he was able to get hired by Eastern, and had an excellent safety record. He was immediately grounded for life. End of story? Not quite.

Apparently due to his excellent skills and safety record, he ended up being allowed to continue flying, trained on the DC-9, and finally was flying DC-9s on the Eastern Shuttle...legally.

TomFoolery · Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:20 am

In the name of liability, the idea of second chances does not fly. Airlines have very specific procedures and processes in place to preclude many failures. When the investigation shows that there was a failure to follow a procedure, resulting in an incident, then normally the result will be termination.

I am not sure of the exact details, but normally a landing on the nose wheel would indicate that an irregular operation was done. With a very rare exception, airlines do not tend to keep pilots with 'marks' on their records.

BA 038 B777 Crash landing at LHR - Crew Terminated
US 1549 A320 Crash landing NY - Crew Retained

Not sure about AF 358 Crash landing YYZ

I would almost say it can be a PR swing, but that doesn't explain the actions of BA.

Tom

Groover158 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:16 am

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 20):
When the investigation shows that there was a failure to follow a procedure, resulting in an incident, then normally the result will be termination.

I disagree. If the investigators are doing their job properly, they will investigate why the procedure was not followed. Individuals regularly fail to follow procedures for a dozens of reasons.

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 20):
Airlines have very specific procedures and processes in place to preclude many failures.

Just because an airline has very specific procedures and processes doesn't mean that those procedures and processes can't be incorrect, or subject to misinterpretation, or difficult to follow. People generally don't deliberately fail to follow procedures and often it's the procedures themselves that are half the reason. Coupled with high workload, distraction and a number of other contributory factors pretty much guarantees that airlines should never assume that procedures are followed 100% of the time and should have in place other controls.

Any airline that sacks someone solely on the basis of not following a procedure demonstrates and promotes a very poor safety culture.

washingtonflyer · Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting molitvic20 (Reply 11):
so they offered her $2 million for her to leave the company, I heard she requested $7 million. Not sure if it ever went through though.

Anyone else see this as messed up? Crash a plane, and get paid anywhere between $2 million and $7 million.

Groover158 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:49 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 22):
Anyone else see this as messed up? Crash a plane, and get paid anywhere between $2 million and $7 million.

Probably because they fired her (forced her out of the company) before the NTSB had completed its investigation into why this happened.

[Edited 2014-07-24 04:51:41]

washingtonflyer · Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:19 pm

Quoting groover158 (Reply 23):
Probably because they fired her (forced her out of the company) before the NTSB had completed its investigation into why this happened.

And this accomplishes what? The NTSB has federal subpoena power, so the flight deck crew can be called to testify regardless of their employment status.

I'm still not understanding the basic issue: you are being fired because the company believes you violated policy and good practice (i.e., you acted negligently or with gross negligence). You are being paid anywhere between $3 and $7 to be fired.

vfw614 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:39 pm

That's an everyday practice in employment law disputes. Rather than fight it to the end with the risk of having to keep an unwanted employee, the employer enters into a settlement that includes termination of employment "by mutual consent" and a severance payment for the employee.

washingtonflyer · Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:53 pm

Last time we fired someone, fired with cause for stealing supplies, they were told to clear out their office and leave by COB. No negotiations over this much or that much.

DTWPurserBoy · Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 20):

BA 038 B777 Crash landing at LHR - Crew Terminated

Not true. When the cause of the crash was determined to be a problem of ice in the fuel lines they were exonerated. In fact, his incredible feat of airmanship in keeping the plane aloft for another 160 feet rather than plowing it through the perimeter fence saved numerous lives. There are several Youtube videos covering this.

acabgd · Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:01 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 20):
BA 038 B777 Crash landing at LHR - Crew Terminated

Actually, the captain then returned to his job - albeit only 3 years later.

Peter Burkill To Return To BA (by hotplane Sep 29 2010 in Civil Aviation)

jayfred · Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 24):
You are being paid anywhere between $3 and $7 to be fired.

Because mainline carriers' wages are often relatively high, these numbers are high but not exorbitant. Certainly on par with the costs the airline might incur in a legal battle with the union. The airline then preempts their projected losses, removes an employee that they perceive as a liability, and avoid a media nightmare connected to a legal fight. Meanwhile, the crew member gets a nice little severance package and avoids the same (usually messy) legal battle. It's as "win-win" as these things can possibly come.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):
Last time we fired someone, fired with cause for stealing supplies, they were told to clear out their office and leave by COB. No negotiations over this much or that much.

Yes, but an aviation accident stealing is not. Malicious intent is implied with theft. Not so in an in-flight incident. The unions would NEVER touch this situation, but they would fight against the termination of a crewmember involved in an accident (particularly a non-fatal one, I imagine)

[Edited 2014-07-24 06:03:37]

[Edited 2014-07-24 06:04:53]

par13del · Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 2):
WN pilots are covered by a union and CBA. Management would want to have a solid case against an employee with union protection because of the costs associated with fighting to have the termination upheld once the union tries to protect the employee.

Management needs a solid case for termination regardless of the union or CBA, no union or CBA can negate the protections of the laws of the country where it relates to unfair termination. It may cost the employee additional to challenge the termination in court, the legal system does allow punitive damages.

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 9):
You want to know what two pilots will never land at the wrong airport for the rest of their career? Send the ones who already did it.

Or train them in how to do it correctly and incorrectly

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 20):
BA 038 B777 Crash landing at LHR - Crew Terminated

Is this a fact, as far as I am aware the fault of the crash was traced to a flaw in the engine heat interchange design.
If they are no longer with BA was it a termination or resgination / early returement with benefits?

Termination would imply that the flaw in the engine was known and BA had procedures in place to mitigate the error which the crew did not follow.

DTWPurserBoy · Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:05 pm

Second chances are given again in the airline industry. NW had a case where three pilots, intoxicated, flew a 727-200 from FAR to MSP. All failed the FAA administered breathalizer test and were terminated. All went to prison. The captain, one tough old Marine, took his lumps, (including revocation of all his tickets), admitted his mistake, served his time and when he got out he rebuilt his flying career from the ground up. Eventually he got his ATP back and the CEO of NW, John Dasberg, was so impressed that the pilot was reinstated. He flew out his careet until retirement and became a role model for other crew members with alcohol-related problems. I am proud to call him a friend.

30989 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:06 pm

A culture where no mistakes are allowed seems even more dangerous. If I in my job were not allowed to make any slightest mistake, I would be even more nervous. This certainly is dangerous.

fxramper · Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:14 pm

I wouldn't let the two pilots fly again at WN. They have a serious job operating a passenger jet with lives on board. As stated, they landed at the wrong airport and could have crashed or worse.

Quoting molitvic20 (Reply 11):
She was not fired, after the incident the FAA threw her in the simulator and tested her through all the books and she passed with flying colors, the FAA told Southwest there was nothing wrong with her flying abilities. That wasn't enough for Southwest, so they offered her $2 million for her to leave the company, I heard she requested $7 million. Not sure if it ever went through though.

It was her third strike at WN. There was a thread on it a long time a go. There was no monetary award paid out by WN. She was terminated with cause.

copter808 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Gotta wonder how many of these "Fire them!" commentors would have a different opinion if it was THEM who were being terminated. All to easy to say "I shouldn't be fired because my job is not as important."

Would any of you who have NEVER made a mistake please contact me? I would love to meet you. (And so would the rest of us here.)

n471wn · Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 33):
It was her third strike at WN. There was a thread on it a long time a go. There was no monetary award paid out by WN. She was terminated with cause.

Yes this is correct----the posters who talk about millions in settlement are wrong---it did not happen

fernanlnin · Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:12 pm

I have read a couple of books about WN management and apparently in the LUV culture you are allowed to make mistakes. There's the story of a guy who gave his word (not signed, just said the company would) to the city of Austin to contribute with some money to airport remodeling/extension. It turns out when he went back to the HQ everyone told him what a bad decision he had made. Kelleher knew and he said the company would keep its word. This guy's decision ended up costing WN $400,000.00 and you would think he'd be fired. As it turns out, he was promoted.

Now, this incident is more operational and probably safety related, however, all things considered, WN might as well use it for corporate learning in the likes of "remember the time we landed in the wrong airport? Well, let's not do that again okay?".

trnswrld · Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:50 pm

Geez, where were all you guys to back me when I kept saying the same things in that incident where a controller made the bad decision to make a joke causing that triple seven to go around? I was scalded in that thread by everyone because they thought that guy should be canned and even sent fuel bill from the airline lol.
I was making the same points that this controller who was a very good veteran controller who made the stupid mistake of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time...a mistake he will never make again, that he should NOT be fired, I was reemed in that thread by a few perfect pilots.
I wish some users like 747megatop or detlamd90 would show their faces in the threads where god for bid pilots made the mistake. Wait, that happens all the time so soon there will be no more pilots because they will all be fired.

bennett123 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:05 pm

The ATC was deliberate mis conduct and IMO should have been fired.

IMO, someone should not be fired for making a mistake unless it was reckless or just plain dumb.

The will be instances where the pilots on here will say "what was he thinking of?".

In that situation, IMO termination is appropriate.

washingtonflyer · Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:14 pm

Donno..If I broke a $15 million piece of equipment, my employer might be kind of mad.

TomFoolery · Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
Not true. When the cause of the crash was determined to be a problem of ice in the fuel lines they were exonerated. In fact, his incredible feat of airmanship in keeping the plane aloft for another 160 feet rather than plowing it through the perimeter fence saved numerous lives. There are several Youtube videos covering this.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 28):
Actually, the captain then returned to his job - albeit only 3 years later.

I stand happily corrected on this. I had lost a lot of faith in the industry when it was made public that these guys were sacked.

barney captain · Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:07 pm

Let's pretend for second -

That the crew was arriving at night from the North and asked the tower controller to turn up the runway lights. At that moment a runway illuminated at their 12 o' clock position and they transitioned to a visual approach. Things were suddenly busy in the cockpit as they found themselves slightly high and needed to get configured. A stable approach was established followed by a normal landing.

Let's also pretend for a second that when the request to turn up the lights was made, at that very moment a GA aircraft at a smaller airport along their flight path and approximately where they expected to see the runway, activated the pilot controlled lighting turning the runway lights up.

In every incident, there's always contributing factors that we can all learn from, and once learned can lead to an "I see how that could happen" moment of clarity.

Some of you are "Fire, ready, aim".

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