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EK413
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Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:12 pm

Hi all,

The previous discussion had 200+ responses and was slow to load for some users so Part 8 has been created to continue the conversation.

The previous thread can be found here: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 7 (by bnatraveler Jul 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

We ask that you please be respectful to the victim's families. In addition do NOT post pictures of the crash site if they contain victims & ask that you link to them with a warning.

Additionally, this is a charged environment so please refrain from political, polarizing or likely flame-baiting comments in your replies. If you desire to discuss politics, etc. you can post in the Non-Aviation forum as there is at least one thread in that forum that is discussing this matter: Political Ramifications Of MH17 (by RomeoBravo Jul 17 2014 in Non Aviation)

For the benefit of the discussion, we again ask that non-aviation discussion in this thread be directed to the appropriate thread the Non-Aviation forum and no longer continue in the Civil Aviation thread.

EK413
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:40 am

Don't know if this was linked in the last thread but sad and not surprising if true and, moreover, shows how stupid some people are:

'Crash victims' phones answered by strangers'

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/0...ctims-phones-answered-by-strangers
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NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:29 am

Our ABC just published some photographs showing the 'spread' of debris, which extends for up to three kilometres from the main crash site. I think it's particularly relevant that the tail section finished up a long way out. I'm afraid that the latter point largely explains why a lot of the bodies haven't been found yet:-

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-2...os-mh17-crash-sites-debris/5616934
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:09 am

There is also a video of the cockpit section from ABC:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...es-flight-mh17-identified-24669143

And in photographs:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroen...17505025/in/set-72157645853477595/




As you can see the photograph was taken at the same time as the news report was being filmed. Now, however, I'd like to figure out where in the debris field pictured in the satellite images above, the cockpit section actually resides. I do not see any of the main crash sites with a house like the one pictured above nearby. Since the cockpit came down miles from the main crash site, it might offer confirmation, based on its location, that the cockpit was the first section to separate from the aircraft.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:05 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 3):

Ah yes, the sunflower field. If you have your back to the building I believe this is your view.
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14714333741/in/photostream/lightbox/
Jeroen Akkermans has a dozen pictures or so that give almost the whole panorama at that site.

I think that hill consists of mine tailings.
I believe it's around Petropavlika but I can't find it either.
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:08 am

Thanks for that, Aloha.

I think your contribution raises a further point - in that the area you picture shows growing crops. That implies that ALL the farmers in surrounding areas will have to be asked to check ALL their cultivated fields for dead bodies?

On the face of it, it will be months before all the bodies are found. In fact, sadly, given that agriculture is pretty mechanised these days, it's highly probable that some won't be found for months - if ever.........
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 4):
I think that hill consists of mine tailings

There are many of those in that area, so it's hard to pinpoint the location with just those pictures.
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CF-CPI
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 2):
Our ABC just published some photographs showing the 'spread' of debris,

These photos provide a good perspective on the main wreckage sites. Does anyone know what portion of the aircraft lies at the 'secondary' site? While not as extensive as the primary area, the disturbance of the earth seems pretty severe. What is labeled as the aircraft 'tail', in a nearby field, I assume is the rudder whose image we have seen before. It makes me wonder if the rest of the empennage, including the stabilizers and rear fuselage (including APU) is what fell at that 'secondary' area.
 
Mitico12
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 1):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 1):
Don't know if this was linked in the last thread but sad and not surprising if true and, moreover, shows how stupid some people are:

'Crash victims' phones answered by strangers'

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/0...ngers

I mean, the misery these people (Ukranians / Separatists) are in probably got them thinking, let's take advantage of the spoils. If you are starving and don't have anything, seeing the goods being showered down from the sky can be interpreted as a saving grace.

I don't agree with it, but if I was in that situation, I don't know if I would be capable of doing the same...
 
Marcus
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 8):
I mean, the misery these people (Ukranians / Separatists) are in probably got them thinking, let's take advantage of the spoils. If you are starving and don't have anything, seeing the goods being showered down from the sky can be interpreted as a saving grace.

I don't agree with it, but if I was in that situation, I don't know if I would be capable of doing the same...

I disagree, if they are looting the crash site they are disgusting human beings in my book, regardless of their economic situation.
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esdex
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:21 pm

So, I don't speak Russian but do I understand that their Air Force had MH17 eastbound on W533, MAKAK-DON-ABOLA-GONED-TAMAK, with the deviation they describe just before or on DON? Very different to eastbound L980 track on ADS-B sources. No wonder they only sent a two star out ...
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:59 pm

After having a close look at detailed close-up wreckage photos taken by repoter friends of mine on-site I saw several shrapnel parts embedded in the honeycomb ... is it possible to get samples of this shrapnel and (in the lab) trace it back to certain ammunition types proving the assumptions that it it was a russian BUK?
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tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:20 pm

Is there really a need for further data pointing to BUK?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:29 pm

Another 74 bodies arrived in The Netherlands today.

http://www.zie.nl/video/vliegramp-oe...ngekomen-uit-Oekraine/hcnznwffgxuh
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting LH526 (Reply 11):

As somebody suggested, some shrapnel fragments should be embedded in the bodies that have been transferred to the Netherlands...

...and somebody else suggested metallurgical analyses to identify the exact production batch of the SA-11 missiles as soon as the shrapnel have been found.

Who is now conducting the investigation? The Dutch Onderzoeksraad? The Ukrainian justice department? The British AAIB?


David
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 8):
I mean, the misery these people (Ukranians / Separatists) are in probably got them thinking, let's take advantage of the spoils. If you are starving and don't have anything, seeing the goods being showered down from the sky can be interpreted as a saving grace.

I don't agree with it, but if I was in that situation, I don't know if I would be capable of doing the same...

I'm not suggesting it was done by starving individuals more so than rebel thugs who control the scene and most likely pulled the trigger. I'm sure those type of people would take anything of value regardless of morals. FWIW I believe the Lauda Air 767 crash site in Thailand was looted by locals after the accident (as well as other accidents all over the world) so it wouldn't be the first time a crash site has been looted however in this case it seems to have been by the same people who control the site and may be responsible...
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NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 7):
It makes me wonder if the rest of the empennage, including the stabilizers and rear fuselage (including APU) is what fell at that 'secondary' area.

Can't find the link again, CF-CPI, but I seem to recall seeing a photograph showing the whole of the empennage and part of the rear fuselage separated from the rest of the aeroplane?

Some 'good' news here, in that the investigators are hopeful that they can recover data from the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder. Not as relevant as in normal accidents, though, in that we already know the aeroplane was shot down, that this was no accident:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28439862

[Edited 2014-07-24 20:29:48]
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:51 am

Apologies for the double post, but apparently more parts - and more bodies - have now been found. The investigators appear virtually to have to 'harvest' crops to continue the search:-

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-aus...-human-remains-20140725-zwmt4.html
 
tommy1808
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:12 am

Hi,

the BUK launcher location has been pinpointed:

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014...t-location-pinpointed-of-mh17.html

best regards
Thomas
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galleypower
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 4):
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14714333741/in/photostream/lightbox/
Jeroen Akkermans has a dozen pictures or so that give almost the whole panorama at that site.

Thanks for sharing those pictures. If you look at the the shrapnel marks at the tip, upper side, left wing it looks like they came slightly from above and forward. This is corresponds with the sharpnel marks at the part of left cockpit window frame.

If you look at the debris around the cockpit you can also see first class seats (or C-Cl). This leads to the conclusion that the plane broke apart well aft of #1 doors. Debris field of cockpit is located near this big house with the blotchy roof. I drew a approx line of flight from the main debris field and followed it tho the west. After app. 4,5 km you hit the village of Roszypne and can find a house that could be the one with the roof. You have to zoom in quite a bit on google earth but you can see the pattern on the roof.

I try to add a photo but cant figure out how. Working on it.

Sorry, cant do it, here is the link
https://www.airliners.net/ufview.file?id=192488&filename=phppqU73B.jpeg

[Edited 2014-07-25 01:48:46]
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:50 am

I was saying about metallurgical analysis.
However, I am not sure that shrapnel is "manufactured" by "Almaz-Antey."
We would have to get a little fragment of the missile.
Which returns us to the crash site.

It was interesting to visit the Oliver Stone's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/TheOliverStone/posts/815753228448978
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PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:04 am

So Australia is sending federal officers to the crash site...is use of lethal force authorized?
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martinair50
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:38 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 14):
Who is now conducting the investigation? The Dutch Onderzoeksraad? The Ukrainian justice department? The British AAIB?

I believe the Onderszoeksraad with cooperation of other countries.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):
So Australia is sending federal officers to the crash site...is use of lethal force authorized?

The seperatists are cooperative at the moment so nobody goes inside the territory with weapons: that would only worsen the things.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:16 am

Thoughts on this photo?

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14737382623/in/photostream/lightbox/

and this?

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14698693231/in/photostream/lightbox/

[Edited 2014-07-25 04:27:50]
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 20):
It was interesting to visit the Oliver Stone's FB page:

Rubbish...

Meanwhile, Maidan hero Volodymyr Parasyuk reports from the front how "rebels" engage in random murders and rape:

http://vk.com/parasuyk

Translation from Ukrainian:

"He [a detained rebel] also told how the DNR [Donetsk People's Republic] guys behave with the local population. "They get drunk at night, walk the streets and shoot at civilians. Who kills more, wins the bet." This [curse-word] is called Dmitriy. Originally swore that he knew nothing, but after talking with our boys, betrayed everyone he knew and told us a lot of useful information. Constantly repeating that Putin will save them and that Russia always helps. Also this [curse-word] confessed that they were raping young girls, and those who resisted, got a machine gun put to their head and were offered the choice, or a bullet in the forehead, or do what is told."

And the world is starting to pay attention to the Russian artillery that has been firing into Ukraine from across the border:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/24/wo...malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html

And mass graves are discovered in liberated Slovyansk:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2....-rights-watch-bodies-mh17.cnn.html

[Edited 2014-07-25 04:51:51]

[Edited 2014-07-25 04:53:14]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:48 am

Somebody has mapped some debris:

http://www.metabunk.org/sk/Google_Ea...3_13-43-26_2014-07-23_13-44-27.jpg


And there is a German programmer called "Fefe" who operates one of the most-read German blogs. He often refers to news articles and blog postings which often come astonishing, and now often takes the Russian side in this conflict (although one stated goal of his blog is to make people think, and so it's up to the reader to take everything with a grain of salt). But here he posted the explanations of a German ex-air force soldiers: http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=ad2cf787 (in German).

He explains a bit about SARH, but the interesting thing was that he was told in 1991, when he was an active soldier, that very often SAM radars can be identified by the enemy. There are signal anomalies due to production tolerances of the electronic parts used. An RC-135 just needs to pick up some Buk radar signals during an exercise, and compare the recorded signals later. Both the Russians and the NATO could tell which specific Buk launcher caused the MH17 disaster.


David

[Edited 2014-07-25 04:48:40]
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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:00 pm

Excellent debris map.

It will be interesting to see a projection of the intended flight path over this map so we can tell what is where in relation to it.

If we take the fuselage skin section top left as the location of where the plane began to fall apart, either the flight deck veered off to the right on it's own, or the centre section veered left during the breakup.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:23 pm

How does it look like inside a Buk TELAR?

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20/inside-buk-telar-images/ - complete with a video and light, upbeat and entertaining music...


David
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 23):
Thoughts on this photo?

Shrapnel impact for sure. The second one (and other Jeroen Akkermans pics) show distinct green traces of the paint of the missile.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:50 pm

I agree on that. Perhaps also given the location of the part relative to the aircraft and the angle of the scar that we can possibly infer location of launch.

I am going to assume that the path of the missile was relatively straight forward and a 777 is not capable of taking military style evasive action (even supposing the pilots even knew what hit them)...
 
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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 29):
I am going to assume that the path of the missile was relatively straight forward and a 777 is not capable of taking military style evasive action (even supposing the pilots even knew what hit them)...

The brunt of the explosion does appear to be have been taken by the port side of the flight deck. And going by the obvious sooting and molten aluminium, it was very close.

One could suppose that the missile came from the left of the aircraft. That's from anywhere between NNW to ESE if I am not mistaken.

(Not accounting for an overshoot scenario)

Speaking to a friend who works in a place I cannot even suggest the location or name of; He is certain the powers that be already know the location where the missile came from to within a few yards, but that by publicising such information they would give away how they operate and are thus highly unlikely to to say anything.
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bikerthai
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 18):
Hi,

the BUK launcher location has been pinpointed:

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014...t-location-pinpointed-of-mh17.html

best regards
Thomas

Awesome modern day sleuth work. I hope the reporter was thorough enough to get the soil sample of the burnt area. There may be trace residue of the burnt rocket fuel that could add additional evidence to the theory.

bt
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Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:58 pm

The SBU just released a tapped conversation between the rebels that took place 2 minutes before the crash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnSrYKAzgcc

One of the rebels tells the other that a plane is approaching, but it is not clear what kind of plane because of the clouds...
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:15 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emfVpkBKoow&

This one seems to have English translation.

[Edited 2014-07-25 07:15:57]
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CF-CPI
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 16):
Can't find the link again, CF-CPI, but I seem to recall seeing a photograph showing the whole of the empennage and part of the rear fuselage separated from the rest of the aeroplane?

I have only seen the rudder, but there had been talk that the rear portion of the fuselage broke off. I am curious to know where that ended up relative to the main wreckage and the cockpit. Discussion of the cockpit indicates that a good portion of the forward fuselage broke off with it as well. 'New' wreckage and bodies were found in farming areas today, as reported in this thread, but it really looks more like the main fuselage.

I do hope the Dutch forensics teams can identify remains and note shrapnel. There must be an electronic record of the seat assignments, as well, to help in figuring this all out.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 152):
That's Monday morning quarterbacking on your part. A lot of people dropped the ball on that one and not just in Ukraine, everybody assumed that airliners were safe way up there out of manpad range. But here that logic is not so benign as Monday morning quarterbacking, you are shifting the blame away from the people who actually fired the missile which killed 298 innocent people.

I understand your point, but I disagree. It is not about me being wise after the fact. The facts speak for themselves. The Ukranians did in fact consider the risks of a shoot down when they changed the NOTAM. The US "advisors" in the Ukraine must have also been aware of these risks, and indeed the fact that the US gave that special "strong warning" to its own airlines not to fly over that region show also that the US did actually consider the risk of a shoot down. These are facts, not a theory.

Therefore, both the Ukranians and US knew of and considered the risks, and made a calculation that they knew would expose hundreds of airlines and their passengers to the risk of being shot down. At the very least a reasonable person in their position and with the information they had, would come to the conclusion that eventually a shoot down event was close to a certainty.

It is naive not to acknowledge that from Ukraine's point of view an airline being shot down would look like the perfect solution to their problem. There is a good case to answer whether there was a conspiracy between the US "advisors" and the Ukranians to achieve their military aims by intentionally placing hundreds of airliners in an region where an eventual shoot down like this was a certainty. If the separatists did not do it, then perhaps the Ukranians had to do it for them.

The US media campaign leading up to the attempt to persuade the EU to commit to sanctions after the shoot down was simply too slick, too intense and too emotionally manipulative, not to have been manufactured and perhaps prepared in advance of the incident. That campaign has been ratcheted back a notch now, but the artificial nature of that campaign is evident to any impartial observer.

[Edited 2014-07-25 08:52:41]
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:02 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):
So Australia is sending federal officers to the crash site...is use of lethal force authorized?

Huh? In another country?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Somebody has mapped some debris:

http://www.metabunk.org/sk/Google_Ea...7.jpg

Link seems not to work (at least not for me).  
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PHX787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 36):
Huh? In another country?

Due to UN security council resolutions.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 36):
Link seems not to work (at least not for me).

Go to http://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17...issile-was-used-shrapnel-etc.3997/ - and scroll down to posting number 13.

Now, they've posted pictures of shrapnel damage to a A-10 and World War 2 planes for comparison.

On metabunk.org, they have several MH17-related postings, by the way.

David

[Edited 2014-07-25 10:10:57]

[Edited 2014-07-25 10:12:37]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:43 pm

@Bluesky
I have no idea to what extend the Ukrainians cooperated with the U.S. "advisers," but we are witnessing something a lot bigger and worse than this MH crash.
The U.S. mass steam media appears to be firmly set on the collision course.
We can just follow the lies of the week:
- two SU-25 downed by Russian missiles from the Russian territory;
- Reuters' completely false presentation of the interview with a rebel commander; I was patient enough to watch all the original video. Jeez... Nothing in common with how Reuters interpreted;
- today - another step-up: Russia delivers "Grad" to "vernichten" the Ukranian Army en mass.

Not enough? Yahoo is posting link to Jim Willie who stated that Germany secretly plans to leave EU and NATO and to join Russia.
http://etfdailynews.com/2014/07/23/g...nning-on-joining-brics-jim-willie/

Under these circumstances, how can we all possibly imagine that we will ever find out the truth about MH17 crash?

BTW. I already raised the German issue (twice by mistake.) Maybe Jim Willie's words really have some sense?

“Here’s the big, big consequence. The U.S. is basically telling Europe you have two choices here. Join us with the war against Russia.

Join us with the sanctions against Russia. Join us in constant war and conflicts, isolation and destruction to your economy and denial of your energy supply and removal of contracts. Join us with this war and sanctions because we’d really like you to keep the dollar regime going."
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):

See it now. Tanks!  
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 37):
Due to UN security council resolutions.

I don't know what you're talking about. I probably have not payed attention. But usually, the monopoly of force (vocabulary?) is exclusively with the respective souvereign state. If I have missed something that would change matters in regard to the Ukraine - let me know. We're here to learn something new every day.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):

LH also flew along that same route, as did other airlines. Each one had the option of taking other routes. Your suggestion that the US and Ukraine intentionally kept the air corridor open HOPING that a civilian airliner full of passengers would be shot down is sickening.

Until the plane was shot down, nobody ever considered that putin was so insane as to supply his 'rebels' with anything remotely capable of shooting down any thing at over 15000ft. Even russia kept their airspace open above 32000ft, in the warzone along the flight path, directly across the border with Ukraine.

Airspace isn't closed every time a shot is fired. Airlines still flew at high altitude over Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq during conflicts.

They didn't need to find any more negative press for russia or the rebels...except for the state controlled russian media, the entire world saw through the facade of legitimacy being foisted on us by the invaders.

You may as well suggest aliens shot down the plane as you have as much proof of that.

Your attempts to deflect blame for this tragedy is sad and pathetic. Nobody is buying what you're selling.
What the...?
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 39):
Not enough? Yahoo is posting link to Jim Willie who stated that Germany secretly plans to leave EU and NATO and to join Russia.

Yahoo posts links based on what you look at as far as I can tell. If you do a bunch of surfing and searching about that topic then Yahoo will provide links to it.
 
victrola
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):
The US media campaign leading up to the attempt to persuade the EU to commit to sanctions after the shoot down was simply too slick, too intense and too emotionally manipulative, not to have been manufactured and perhaps prepared in advance of the incident. That campaign has been ratcheted back a notch now, but the artificial nature of that campaign is evident to any impartial observer.

There is no organized media campaign in the U.S. to manipulate this issue. The media of the world are much too disorganized and fragmented to be organized into such a campaign. If you had any grasp about the nature of U.S. media, you would see that there is vigorous, even vicious debate on a wide variety of subjects every day. I would suggest you compare this to the Russian media, which tows the Putin line.

If you really think that U.S. and Ukranian masterminds have been sitting around plotting on how to shoot down a commercial airliner and then pin the blame on the rebels, you really have no grasp of reality.

It is obvious to any objective person that the most probable scenario here is that some trigger happy rebel screwed up and accidentally shot down a civilian airliner.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 39):
I have no idea to what extend the Ukrainians cooperated with the U.S. "advisers," but we are witnessing something a lot bigger and worse than this MH crash.

We are getting a very good idea of how the rebels have cooperated with the Russian "advisers". Show us these U.S. advisers. We see Russian "advisers" on TV every day carrying rifles and driving tanks.

The problem with Russians is that they assume that just because they have a media that is merely an arm of government propaganda, that it is the same situation with Western media. Well it's not.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Your attempts to deflect blame for this tragedy is sad and pathetic. Nobody is buying what you're selling.

They do it in hope...

If you look closely to this thread, and in particular to the last dozen or so posts in the MH370 thread, you'll see most posts are currently being made by people who signed up to a.net in March this year. Sometimes, although hiding behind flags of convenience like Hong Kong and Australia, the style of dialogue is so similar that it sometimes feels like it is the same person typing in four different names; just take a look.

I have a sneaking feeling this is a deliberate and premeditated attempt to disrupt and intentionally plant disruptive "information" and alternative points of view on public media outlets focussing on these issues and it does not need Sherlock Holmes to safely guess where it might be emanating from...

Rgds
Flying around India
 
alfa164
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Until the plane was shot down, nobody ever considered that putin was so insane as to supply his 'rebels' with anything remotely capable of shooting down any thing at over 15000ft. Even russia kept their airspace open above 32000ft, in the warzone along the flight path, directly across the border with Ukraine.

  

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
They didn't need to find any more negative press for russia or the rebels...except for the state controlled russian media, the entire world saw through the facade of legitimacy being foisted on us by the invaders.
You may as well suggest aliens shot down the plane as you have as much proof of that.
Your attempts to deflect blame for this tragedy is sad and pathetic. Nobody is buying what you're selling.

     

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
It is obvious to any objective person that the most probable scenario here is that some trigger happy rebel screwed up and accidentally shot down a civilian airliner.
Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
The problem with Russians is that they assume that just because they have a media that is merely an arm of government propaganda, that it is the same situation with Western media. Well it's not.

        

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
I am entitled to have my opinion.

Certainly, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled, however, to create your own set of "facts".

Your posts indicate you have been living in a parallel universe somewhere, oblivious to the truth - and the facts - about MH17. It is time to face the facts, apologize for the horrendous result of Putin's gamble in the Ukraine, and move on.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
LH707330
Posts: 2264
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 42):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 39):
Not enough? Yahoo is posting link to Jim Willie who stated that Germany secretly plans to leave EU and NATO and to join Russia.

Yahoo posts links based on what you look at as far as I can tell. If you do a bunch of surfing and searching about that topic then Yahoo will provide links to it.

Exactly, so if you click on links to conspiracy theory sites, you get more hits like "Germany plans to leave EU" and other nonsense.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
I believe I am very realistic. I am entitled to have my opinion. And after years of discussion at "The Washington Post" I feel quite alright that people disagree with me. The most important and satisfying: when at least some of my opponents start cautiously looking out of the box.

Perhaps, I am little bit disappointed that this community proved to be not ready for analyzing aviation - and politics at the same time.
I should have assumed that.

You're full well entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't stop others from disagreeing with you. A rebel messing up and shooting down an airliner seems, to most of us at least, is a far more plausible scenario than a big conspiracy by the US and Ukrainian governments to sneak their own Buk crew into a rebel-held area and shoot down an airliner. Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? The simplest answer requiring the fewest assumptions is usually the right one. As Carl Sagan once said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." If you have any extraordinary evidence to back up a western conspiracy, please present it. Please don't tell us "that this community proved to be not ready for analyzing aviation - and politics at the same time" when we've reached a conclusion you don't want to hear.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):
It is naive not to acknowledge that from Ukraine's point of view an airline being shot down would look like the perfect solution to their problem.

I don't know what you think Ukraine's "problem" is, but it seems to me that shooting down any plane not packed with lebensraum seeking Russian nationalists would not be helpful to solving their border problems with Russia. As has been pointed out before, the Ukrainian people already have the support and understanding of the vast majority of westerners in the face of Putin's expansionism.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):
There is a good case to answer whether there was a conspiracy between the US "advisors" and the Ukranians to achieve their military aims by intentionally placing hundreds of airliners in an region where an eventual shoot down like this was a certainty. If the separatists did not do it, then perhaps the Ukrainians had to do it for them.

What US advisers? The resistance to Russian domination is clearly a grassroots movement in Ukraine. US political advice is unneeded and most probably unwanted. Ukraine is seeking closer ties to the EU, not the OAS.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):
The US media campaign leading up to the attempt to persuade the EU to commit to sanctions after the shoot down was simply too slick, too intense and too emotionally manipulative, not to have been manufactured and perhaps prepared in advance of the incident.

I must have missed this "media campaign", could you inform me on this subject? Anyway, the emotionally charged reporting of this incident has come from European photographers, not US media.

bluesky, I think you should go back to propaganda charm school, you're not doing too well here.
 
agill
Posts: 1047
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:16 pm

 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
Go to http://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17...issile-was-used-shrapnel-etc.3997/ - and scroll down to posting number 13.

I am immensely intrigued that much of the analysis posted back in Threads 4, 5, and 7 here at a.net wound up in the metabunk thread. I'd assume user Sulman is amongst our membership here, as well. Of particular interest is the analysis of the cockpit region, very similar to what was discussed here.

Much kudos given to the journalist who was able to locate the launch position of the BUK missile. That, combined with the overwhelming evidence of fragentation/shrapnel damage (pick your term of choice), the admission of guilt by the separatists, and continuing mounting evidence of what has clearly transpired here ought to be enough to disprove any notion that this aircraft was brought down by any other means. I find it funny how the conspiracy theories keep shifting whenever presented with new evidence. Note also that those presenting such theories become indignant and attempt insults at the intelligence of those doing analysis based on the facts. I recommend ignoring posts from such people going forward as they will remain unconvinced and grow increasingly combative when their point of view is challenged.

Now, back to the analysis:

Given the new debris map from metabunk:



It appears that a section of fuselage near the wing root lies some distance behind the cockpit section, followed by the larger debris fields. It was asked earlier whether the forward fuselage would have broken apart and veered to the right, or the fuselage veered to the left. I suggest that both may have occurred...the loss of the outboard section of the left wing would have caused the main part of the aircraft to enter into a left-bank configuration due to the difference of lift between the wings. Also note the immense distance forward of the cockpit section the rest of the aircraft traveled. This suggests the remainder of the aircraft pitched upward after the loss of the forward fuselage, which makes sense, considering the CG shift aft would have lowered the tail.

So now we experience structural stress in the form of:

-Slipstream entering cabin interior and putting increased pressure on the roof of the cabin.



-Port (left) wingtip separation creating lift differential as aircraft temporarily climbs, and then descends:



-Increased upward and starboard pressure on Hstab assembly as aircraft enters left bank, which likely increased in angle as the aircraft broke apart.

-Starboard portions of fuselage begin to fail following separation of damaged left-fuselage sections, due to increased structural stress. This is evidenced by tear-away damage patterns on portions of fuselage from right (starboard) side of aircraft.



-Vstab and Hstab tear away from aircraft at nearly the same moment. Portion of fuselage still attached to tail is forward of the Hstab assembly seen closely nearby.

Vstab:

(Note fuselage segment)

Hstab:


-The Vstab and Hstab tore away from the aircraft to the right, with the rear exit door area hanging on just a bit longer than the rest of the fuselage to these pieces. At this point the aircraft was probably in a very steep left bank configuration, based on the nature of the tear-away seen here:



Many fuselage pieces that have torn away orient themselves in the direction of least drag. In may cases, this leads to fuselage sections landing right-side-up where the cabin roof was torn away, and upside down in cases where the roof remained intact but floor sections were torn away. Forward fuselage lands right-side-up. Tail section lands upside down.

Additionally, the tail tore away not long before the final impact, and followed a similar trajectory, as seen in the background here:




To compare MH17's breakup with that of another aircraft, there is a video here of the breakup of Pan Am 103 which shows what can happen to an aircraft when the forward fuselage section tears away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5naaWe3nLI

Note that upper parts of the structure are ripped away from the fuselage due to the slipstream. This follows the pattern we see in debris where much of the roof of MH17 tore away. The initial phase of MH17's breakup, then, consisted of cockpit overhead structural failure, failure of port fuselage near wing root, separation of left outboard wing, and tearing away of forward fuselage section. Then tearing away of additional cabin and fuselage, sections, failure of Hstab and Vstab assembly, and remainder of central portion of aircraft falling in steep left bank or possibly slightly inverted at the main crash site. All this based on debris field and damage pattern.

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