md11sdf
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:53 pm

I don't know if this has been brought up by anyone else, but isn't it totally inappropriate for the TITLE of this thread to read "MH-17 CRASH"? This aircraft was shot out of the sky my a surface to air missile!! It didn't "CRASH".

The pieces of the broken-apart aircraft DID "crash-to-the-ground" from 30,000 feet up, after it was essentially destroyed.
We NEED to emphasize that this was an act/accident of WAR, not some bloody mechanical failure, or Pilot Error.

"CRASH" is too sterile and analytical. There needs to horror and outrage by everyone here.
I am sorry for those members who live in Vladimir Putin's Russia. They will NOT see the truth on their Television News.

I move that the thread needs to be re-named immediately!!
LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY: Where your camera looks just like a stinger missile to the Airport Police!!
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 35):
At the very least a reasonable person in their position and with the information they had, would come to the conclusion that eventually a shoot down event was close to a certainty.

If that isn't reaching, I don't know what is.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):

Perhaps, I am little bit disappointed that this community proved to be not ready for analyzing aviation - and politics at the same time.
I should have assumed that.

I think you believe that a condescending tone makes you win the argument. I'm not sure why you insist on insulting your fellow posters but nonetheless I would suggest that perhaps you need to perfect the art of mixing aviation and politics.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 53):
I move that the thread needs to be re-named immediately!!

It's a thought, but do you really think they'll change it. The thread name was wrong from day one. It was a not a crash, it was shot down (and then crashed)
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
tim
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:45 am

For those who have a bit of incident management background will agree that Shot down is the major contributing factor/cause. Crash is the final outcome/consequence. Let's not get all PC in a serious thread like this anyway the thread title is a non issue with the loss of life involved here.
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
I believe I am very realistic. I am entitled to have my opinion.

A few days ago, I was in Kyiv. Ukrainians from Donetsk and Luhansk asked me, "do people in the west [i.e. in Western Europe and in the US] understand that we are being attacked by Russians?".

The only thing I could answer was "not yet, but I am trying to explain it to them".

Putin ... lalalalalalalalala

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1r5YYQ2yug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU4c_zP9JrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stzf8l1Qvt4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpLtEbhfoTc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLJw-9cukek








[Edited 2014-07-25 19:52:10]


[Edited 2014-07-25 19:59:52]

[Edited 2014-07-25 20:01:01]

[Edited 2014-07-25 20:07:12]

[Edited 2014-07-25 20:12:50]
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:15 am

The ultimate impact of MH17 is that the US will attempt to drag the Europeans into escalating sanctions on Russia. Something that costs the US little, but is much more costly for the Europeans. The US was even talking about having NATO troops sent to the Ukraine. Some keep calling for ratcheting up sanctions, but trade sanctions can backfire. War reparations (a form of sanctions) drove Germany to war, US trade sanctions propelled Japan into WWII. Just as the trade between nations promote peace through interdependence, trade sanctions do the opposite. Sanctions could re-Sovietize Russia, and will push the region away from peace.

What are the US objectives in Ukraine? To install a missile shield and install some nuclear missiles along the border? Suppose Canada sold a strip of land along the US border to Russia. Would the US tolerate a Russian state and weapons on their border? No of course not, its Cuba all over again, but in reverse. Clearly Russia wants a buffer zone between them and NATO. It seems that in the US some of the same crazy people who got us into Iraq for no good reason (except to steal their oil) are influencing US foreign policy again.

Other conflicts barely grab the attention of the US. What is the interest of the US in Ukraine?
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
LH also flew along that same route, as did other airlines. Each one had the option of taking other routes. Your suggestion that the US and Ukraine intentionally kept the air corridor open HOPING that a civilian airliner full of passengers would be shot down is sickening.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Until the plane was shot down, nobody ever considered that putin was so insane as to supply his 'rebels' with anything remotely capable of shooting down any thing at over 15000ft. Even russia kept their airspace open above 32000ft, in the warzone along the flight path, directly across the border with Ukraine.

The US gave that "special warning" to their own airlines not to fly over that region. So you are wrong, the US did in fact assess the risks and decided that the risk of one of their A/C being shot down was a real one.

Ukraine also changed the NOTAM and the Ukranians also claim they "knew" the separatists had Buks and similar weapons after military bases were overrun. You can't have it both ways, on the one hand the you and Ukranians are claiming the separatists had the weapons, and on the other that the airspace was open because they didn't ???

There is no doubt both Ukraine and the US knew of the risks and engineered a situation where over 800 airlines and their passengers were put at risk. The only question is whether Ukraine chose this particular airliner and actually shot it down themselves because the separatists hadn't done it for them.

A brief summary of an Alternative Narrative Explaining why Ukranians may have Shot Down MH17:

1. After the Ukrainian coup (it fits the definition of a coup, though it was perhaps justified) the new government have found themselves in a desperate situation. Desperate situations call for desperate measures.

2. The Ukranian plan grows naturally out of the circumstances they faced. i.e. Unable to make full use of their air power, but with airlines transiting the conflict area every day.

3. The Ukranians send some military A/C on unnecessary flights into the conflict area where they could be, and were shot down, to establish a pattern and study the results. (The gambit lose some small pieces for a larger gain.)

4. Ukraine who are responsible for determining the risks did not close the airspace but kept it open even after their own A/C were shot down at 20,000 feet. At the same time Ukraine now "claim" knowledge that the separatists had Buks (that can shoot down anything up to 80,000 feet).

5. The "strong warning" from the US government to US and UK airlines shows the US were well aware that there was a risk of an airline being shot down.

6. The US did not pass this information on to their European "friends" or indeed any other airline, thus exposing tens of thousands of passengers from Europe Asia and indeed the US, to the danger of being shot down.

7. The distribution of passenger citizenships on MH17 is unusual. Of the hundreds of A/C that traveled that dangerous route how many would have shown ZERO "documented" US citizens (it is a good assumption that the dual Dutch/US citizen was traveling using his Dutch passport.) How many would also have ZERO Russians. Was this how MH17 was SELECTED?

8. An A/C with a large number of pax from the Netherlands may have been chosen because they have a very large number of English speakers, compared to the other countries in Europe, and so would be more easily manipulated by the western media propaganda barrage.

9. There was one question unanswered question, namely how a Ukranian Buk crew on the ground could target a specific A/C. Of course they could communicate directly with Ukraine ATC, but in addition perhaps they could use a web based A/C positioning system like Flightaware which can use the ADS-B system on A/C to track the identity, GPS position, track and altitude of an A/C with about a 30 second delay.

10. The choice of a Malaysian airliner could have been to create false leads, and to confound analysis.

[Edited 2014-07-25 20:42:01]
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting B797 (Reply 1):
I feel MH17 has been used by the United States and some Western countries to simply advance a narrative. I still believe a independent investigation must be conducted. The only evidence the Untied States has established is guilt by association. The families of these victims deserve the right to find out the facts of this tragedy through a fair and objective investigation. Not a narrative from the Russian media or Western Media or the CIA.

I have little faith in my governments ability to tell the truth after the Iraq debacle which is why as a US citizen I will yield that a international organization must be the finders of fact and then let people make a decision.

Completely agree (though I am not from the US or from China as someone laughably suggested).

Though you can go back through multiple US initiated wars, before Iraq. They mostly seem irrational and they have had confused objectives where the blowback often exceeds any benefits. (Except for those US companies that profit directly from war.)

To those posters who claim they do not believe that there is any US or western propaganda cannot be taken seriously, or are simply have such a narrow exposure to other cultures and news sources that they are blind to it.

Someone should do a documentary showing all the talking heads who were "absolutely" sure there were WMDs in Iraq, who were they, how did they become the mouthpiece for that lie, did they benefit from their cooperation.

[Edited 2014-07-25 21:24:34]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:29 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 60):
There is no doubt both Ukraine and the US knew of the risks and engineered a situation where over 800 airlines and their passengers were put at risk.

There is every amount of doubt. Your ten point summary reeks of paranoia and lacks factual corroboration. You might as well be trying to prove the moon is made of green cheese because we can all see the craters on the moon and in the right light it looks green.
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Marcus
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:37 am

Looks like the victims credit cards have been stolen and used in the area...

http://www.ibtimes.com/cameron-dalzi...ters-who-robbed-crash-site-1639316

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/malaysia-airlines-mh17-british-victims-credit-cards-used-075625611.html#gJVzltx

Disgusting
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:42 am

Quoting AVLnative (Reply 172):

This article has some interesting thoughts:

http://townhall.com/columnists/ronpa...64290

Yes quite a good article, seems quite balanced. There are more articles like this appearing now in other news sources as well.

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 44):
What are you on about? The United States organized the coup after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU. An insight into US scheming can be seen in the leaked call of Victoria Nuland here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

The fact is the democratically elected leader was ousted with western help, and those who objected to the coup either seceded (in the Crimea) or are currently being bombed and shelled by the US puppet government. The day after MH17 was downed, civilians in Luhansk found themselves without water or electricity thanks to the shelling. I think Russia was morally right to provide these "rebels" with the means to defend themselves, and I would personally reserve my anger for those who initiated the civil war, and those who allowed civilian flights through that airspace.

Exactly.

Here is my take on the recent history of Ukraine. It has been widely reported that the US helped to ferment protests in Kiev against the previous elected and government. The protesters mainly from Kiev (predominantly non Russian speakers) successfully carried out a coup (there is no other word for it) after many days of increasingly violent protests, after which some of the security forces defected and the remainder capitulated. Afterwards, the coup leaders and opposition set up a new administration and reported evidence of corruption for some members of the previous government. Crimea then seceded. Then the interim administration had new elections, but these were not widely attended because of sectarian violence outside Kiev. Ukraine is amalgam of Ukranian speakers and (17%) Russian speakers and it seems to be the dividing along these lines. It is probably best to just let this happen, as forcing a one state solution on Ukraine is almost certainly going to result in an ongoing conflict, that could provide a flash point for an escalation in the conflict.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:32 am

I am essentially pushing back against those here who attempt to stop others freely expressing their opinions. (Ironically often the same people who go on about how good it is that everyone if free to express their opinions.)

I have noticed there are a few posters who jump on anyone saying something that doesn't fit exactly with their world view. Usually by attacking or threatening the poster or by exploiting the emotionality of the incident rather than addressing their arguments directly. Other tactics they use are to say that anyone who doesn't go along with them or says anything they don't like must be a Russian propagandist or a conspiracy theorist or other baseless claims and pejoratives.

The ad homenin attacks and threats are indeed part of my motivation to push back and offer alternative viewpoints.

[Edited 2014-07-25 23:16:20]
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:44 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Until the plane was shot down, nobody ever considered that Putin was so insane as to supply his 'rebels' with anything remotely capable of shooting down any thing at over 15000ft.

How do you know that? Did you see a copy of the invoice..??
 
dvautier
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:07 am

I’m with you bluesky9. I would love to find the truth on this crash and it seems obvious that every government involved in this case is lying. Let’s put them in order by number of lies so far.
1) Ukraine - three or more.
2) USA - two
3) Russia - two
4) Separatists - one and a half

Then let’s hope that Whitehall is honest in reporting what’s in those black boxes. So far England seems fair but Cameron really has an angle and he might get to Whitehall. And let’s examine the shrapnel and see where it came from. Would be nice to get some real facts instead of youtube.
 
mark787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:30 am

bluesky9 : pylon101

Conspiracy theories I find to be entertaining and at times could be worth reading. But sometimes they are so far fetched that you seriously have to stop and tell yourself, this is now borderline paranoia. Contrary to what folks think who feel that all Americans fall for what their government tells them, many of us do the exact opposite. Iraq showed us that. At the same time, I have come across many conspiracy sites that adamantly claim that 9/11 was a hoax, and that the UA 767 was a drone or military aircraft. But from my angle which was less than 2 city blocks from the wtc, I saw what was indeed a UA762. So when someone tells me that a 777 was shot down by a missle with photos clearly showing puncture holes on the front section of the aircraft and tell tale signs that the aircraft broke apart in flight, I can very much make my own conclusion that indeed something of a weapon brought it down. Very fascinating story that some conspiracy sites show that claim that the missing MH370 was stolen and now used to stage a shoot down in eastern Ukraine in order to place the blame on Russia and the rebels. Excellent chess match. But very much giving me a headache that one would spend that much effort to think of every nook and cranny that can present itself if they plan to perform history's greatest conspiracy after the assassination of JFK and 9/11. Ironic, and purely a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time that it would be another MH 777, but to link the two to each other makes for a good fairy tale.

I do not have an issue with accepting that a missle shot MH017 down. I am also one that will say that neither Putin nor the rebels shot this aircraft down knowing it was what it was. They thought they were shooting at a Ukraine Military aircraft, and I still believe that the one shooting it wasn't fully trained to perform this task as one would expect. So who ever it was said "shoot it down" "it's an enemy aircraft" didn't take the time to identify it as a commercial aircraft. In this circumstances, yes, Putin does have some responsibility because HE DID provide rebel's with weapons including the BUK system. Ukraine in my opinion also bears blame for allowing the airspace to remain open, as does MH and IATA for flying/allowing an airliner to fly above a war zone (conflict zone) whatever, knowing that such weapons do exist that can reach the height of a commercial aircraft in cruising altitude. I do not consider that the FAA warning it's carriers to avoid the airspace as proof of a cover up. I call it "common sense". Or are we wanting to contradict what the Russians stated recently, where they questioned as to why was there a commercial aircraft flying through a war zone? It seriously doesn't add up, and I don't need the media to influence me to make that analogy. I already know that there is plenty of propaganda everywhere in the world and hence why I don't watch FOX or CNN in the US. I am fully capable of seeing that one channel says it's Blue while the other one says Red. So on that note, I say quit the bulls**t with the conspiracy theories. Everyone with their hands dirty should come forward already and end the nonsense. I have family members who are Russian by marriage and have no desire for the US and Russia to severe ties. The US has also been guilty of the same act years back. admit the mistake, stop pointing fingers already and stop the political garbage. Let Malaysia, Netherlands, and Australia retrieve the bodies of the passengers and let them make the investigation. Leave the US and Russia out of the investigation, quit the he said she said game, and let those nations directly affected to conclude what transpired that awful day.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:11 am

*Rubs head* Might...the subject of the political side of this be better suited to the non-av forum...it feels as if this thread is far and away from any discussion of aviation at this point. I'd like to continue to see updates and news on additional findings of the crash and situation in this thread...and not have to feel like I'm being off-topic by talking about the aviation side of things here.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:34 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 73):

Whilst I don't agree with quite everything you said, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement ..
".... let those nations directly affected to conclude what transpired that awful day."
 
Unflug
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:16 am

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 44):
Hey Pylon, i am following your comments for a while (not difficult cause they are full of [email protected]#$%$) But i was wondering in what fantasy world are u living? Cut the crap please and stay realistic.

Or rather: get realistic.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
I believe I am very realistic.

You are very, very far from being realistic.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
I am entitled to have my opinion.

Yes.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 46):
The most important and satisfying: when at least some of my opponents start cautiously looking out of the box.

Since you are totally trapped in your own box you shouldn't assume that you are able to judge your "opponents".

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 48):
Certainly, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled, however, to create your own set of "facts".

Your posts indicate you have been living in a parallel universe somewhere, oblivious to the truth - and the facts - about MH17. It is time to face the facts, apologize for the horrendous result of Putin's gamble in the Ukraine, and move on.

Well said.
 
mark787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:47 am

YoungMans:

You might be surprised to then hear me say that I actually do agree with one of your reasons stated above. Without specifying in detail, as an investor, I have been given a "suggestion" of where to invest and what to expect in the nearer future. Was it a warning? I can't say for sure, but just in case. That said, I also am one who firmly believes a few things, and not a conspiracy.

1. Putin desires to unify all of the former soviet republics with the desire to make Russia a viable super power, and to balance the global scale.
2. There are those powers that be in the US that would have no problem with a new USSR and a renewed cold war because wars sadly make some people money. With a cold war in place, military budgets of both nations mushroom. aerospace and defence contracts will be signed daily. Suddenly the F-35 becomes extremely viable. paranoia engulfs the public, and here comes the biggest bonus of it all: jobs and a booming economy. That all repeats itself in history as it has been written before.

That said, why I don't buy any MH017 theories is as follows:

1. The downing of a passenger jet, while very tragic, will not spiral the world into a war. There is wayyyy too much money at stake here, and I simply don't take any of the European nations seriously with further sanctions. the European economy is not at all fully recovered, and a very well performing Germany will not sacrifice it's economy over it. the US can huff and puff all it wants about who they think did it, but at the end of the day, it won't be enough to persuade some European nations to punish Russia harshly with sanctions.
2. in order to stage the shoot down where a specific party is to be "set up" as the guilty party, would be astonishingly difficult to execute. Never mind the huge possible liability that would exist if the plan backfires, but consider the logistics of it all, and all the cooperation that would be needed by other parties in order to make it go?

While it is possible to control the outcome of some situations, shooting an airliner down from the sky cannot be controlled. I have studied many of the photos and videos of the wreckage from many sources, and quite a few Russian sources, and a few things are very noticeable. All of the world's Media all have corresponding images that do not contradict the other. That said, the damages spotted specifically to the front of the aircraft show all the signs of a missile spreading shrapnel into the aircraft. the manner in which the aircraft broke apart, the damages, the very grim images of the bodies all tell a story that corroborates the missile theory. We all know that. But the angle of that damage and the direction that MH017 was traveling places the launching area of that missile considerably to the east of Eastern Ukraine. Media sources worldwide have been reporting for several months where there have been conflicts, and it is almost with certain by simply plotting it together on a map, can point the source to a region that is controlled by pro-Russian separatist. And yet I still wouldn't assign that blame blindly. There are a few scenarios that I can see plausible, but the evidence on film makes it hard to debunk. Again, I will say this over and over, the most affected nations of this tragedy are the ones who should investigate with not even a minor involvement from anyone who is itching to get in. For the moment, while making a lot of noise, The US has remained clear of doing just that. We are all living in a very unstable period of time in world history. Lets hope, like it has happened in the past,
that cooler heads prevail.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:05 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 79):
the angle of that damage and the direction that MH017 was traveling places the launching area of that missile considerably to the east of Eastern Ukraine.

Launch site:
47°58'51.65"N 38°45'23.36"E
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014...t-location-pinpointed-of-mh17.html
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:41 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 77):
And with 40 Ukrainian shell bombs landed in Russia within the last 48 hours, we have a plausible objection: to instigate UA-RUS full-scale war.

Reminds me from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Oh yeah, us Finnish aggressors started a war by shelling peace loving people of the Soviet Union whose troops then attacked us to free our proletarian from capitalist oppression.

Not, you Russkies did those shots yourself. And that's probably the case with Ukraine too.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 79):
We are all living in a very unstable period of time in world history. Lets hope, like it has happened in the past, that cooler heads prevail.

In this respect I agree with you.

Have to also say that your post is much more constructive analysis than I have seen for a while, though I don't agree with all your conclusions. This is the way to discuss these issues, not by name calling and abuse.

I think the thread discussion in general has created a context where we can more easily see what has been done in the past. So as to judge what may have happened to MH17.

The possibilities are:
1. The separatists shot the A/C unintentionally. The mitigating factors are that they are at war, and other Ukranian military A/C had attacked them recently. If they did do this then it is obviously very unfortunate but not completely unexpected. The civilian airliners should not have been there in the first place.
The question then is;
a. Did Ukraine by keeping that airspace open, intentionally create a situation where it was
reasonably foreseeable that a civilian airliner would be shot down eventually? If so Ukraine
bears 100% of the liability. or
b. Did Ukraine unintentionally create a situation where it was reasonably foreseeable that a
civilian airliner would be shot down eventually? If so then Ukraine was negligent and bears 100% of the liability. or
c. Did Ukraine unintentionally create a situation where it was NOT reasonably foreseeable that a
civilian airliner would be shot down eventually? If so then Ukraine is not responsible. The problem with this
is that the US "strong warning" is evidence that it was a foreseeable risk, at least for some entities.

or

2. Ukraine intentionally shot the MH17 down, to gain a political advantage. The question in this case is who was involved in the decision making to carry out this hypothetical plot;
a. Only Ukraine, or
b. Both the US and Ukraine?

Analysis of the missile fragments may provide more data.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:01 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 52):
I find it funny how the conspiracy theories keep shifting whenever presented with new evidence. Note also that those presenting such theories become indignant and attempt insults at the intelligence of those doing analysis based on the facts.

We've been seeing the same thing on the MH370 thread since April.   
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:02 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 79):
Lets hope, like it has happened in the past,
that cooler heads prevail.

Again I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Was it yesterday, a German blog site was mentioned here on the thread and I had a look at that.
It quoted an ex German air force member ...
He was saying that the military on both sides, Russia and the US, have the ability to identify specific radar units that go with missile launchers. Kind of like humans have different voices but the words sound the same. Likewise, each radar has its own bleep signature and these are known on both sides.
The message was that both the US and Russia know exactly what has happened with MH-17, which missile launcher fired the missile, where from and so on.
So much of what we see in the media of various countries is of course directed at those specific audiences.

Unlike you I'm not an investor, but I too might still be affected personally by all this kerfuffle.
I'm planning to take my Landcruiser around the world, starting next year, and part of the drive was meant to be through Russia.
I've done that once already, in 1990, when it was still the USSR.
If they are still shooting at each other next year, I might have to think again. You get that ....
Thanks for your good post.
 
awthompson
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:14 am

mark 787

Your post at reply 73 is very level headed and most likely closest to the real truth. Some others like to over complicate things, the failures that led to the shooting down of MH017 are not that complex. No airliners should have been flying over eastern Ukraine, period! The analogy that I used before stands true, if you play with a dangerous snake and get bitten, you cannot blame the snake, that's it's instinct. If you fly airliners over a conflict zone where planes are already being shot down, you cannot entirely say it was the fault of terrorists. The fault here lies with the greater aviation industry. This includes Ukraine ATC, Eurocontrol, ICAO, and to a smaller degree, Malaysia Airlines, albeit I feel so sorry for MAS who obviously did not receive accurate information on time to prevent the shoot down ie. trusted too much in the 'system' and were completely let down.

I'm like yourself, I never suck in what I am told by any one entity, neither TV channels, the internet, the press, ministers of religion etc etc. I look for facts/data myself and make my own independent conclusions. If I don't find enough information, I therefore cannot make final conclusions (that's where I am at the minute with the religious question   ) Where I have had sufficient data, I've never had any trouble with this tactic. I read a wide range of press, I watch a wide range of news channels, and those include CNN / BBC / Al Jazeera / RT / CCTV and somewhat enjoy the completely different angles on news, then I make my own mind up. People are too gullible in this world and seem quite happy to believe all that they are told.

I've no doubt, based on my own analysis of many high res photos, that a high concentration of shrapnel strikes (what else can they have come from other than a missile) caused the break up of 9M-MRD. I don't have enough information to make my mind up about who exactly fired it. I do however think it was unlikely that any individuals chose to shoot down a civilian airliner on purpose. However the conflict situation caused individuals to do irrational things in a careless/callous way, but that's not totally shocking in the heat of a conflict.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 79):
1. Putin desires to unify all of the former soviet republics with the desire to make Russia a viable super power, and to balance the global scale.

As a powerful leader, why wouldn't he. There would be something wrong if he didn't follow such an agenda. Thats thousands of years of world history repeating itself.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 79):
2. in order to stage the shoot down where a specific party is to be "set up" as the guilty party, would be astonishingly difficult to execute. Never mind the huge possible liability that would exist if the plan backfires, but consider the logistics of it all, and all the cooperation that would be needed by other parties in order to make it go?

This is exactly why I don't believe most large scale conspiracy theories. Those that do so are too trusting. For one, I don't credit any nation or government with with the power, or the integrity/intelligence (brain power I am referring to there, not military intelligence) to pull off any of the far fetched theories I have read about. Governments or other apparently powerful entities are just not that 'smart' in my personal experience, they're made up of humans, not supermen/women! People who watch too many films are liable to becoming detached from the real human world.
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:41 pm

AP journalists puzzled together what happened:

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306481/con...entdetail.htm?contentguid=x7Ey1Jcn

Meanwhile, Igor "Strelkov", the self-proclaimed Minister of Defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, who first claimed the shooting down of MH17 thinking it was an An-26, has been linked to the Bosnian genocide:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelk...-3000-bosnian-muslims-1992-1458304
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 83):
The possibilities are:
1. The separatists shot the A/C unintentionally. The mitigating factors are that they are at war, and other Ukranian military A/C had attacked them recently. If they did do this then it is obviously very unfortunate but not completely unexpected. The civilian airliners should not have been there in the first place.

All signs point to a separatist shoot down. Intercepted phone calls; eyewitness reports including the recently issued PR disaster on their hands.

If the Ukrainian separatists and their Russian minders TRULY believed that this was a shootdown by the Ukrainian forces, they 1) would not have TOUCHED ANYTHING, 2) would have been more than willing to let OSCE observers and media in without hindrance, 3) would have provided their own wireless monitoring intelligence amongst Ukrainian military forces and intelligence discussing how the Ukrainians shot the plane down.

However, none of this happened. Instead they made absurd assumptions (and you're following their line) along the lines of, well if we shot it down, its the Ukrainians fault. That is akin to the old adage that you can commit rape because your victim dressed provocatively. It was Russia's weapon (or their downstream separatists), their missile, their people, and their finger pressing that button. Hell, you even had a Ukrainian separatist commander (Igor Strelkov) admitting to it on social media.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9fuZ86bxqTH5yECZAWqf6sCJRK6P3xtZQ50m9ybu8TzI_b01z2WYZ6B3MGCjIL3wWU8_KyAauZ6UqfWfPtaOrvcXlxatCF9enGplupcaTdiNzy2pmnh5hg7kdB-YOSK3OQ

One of the partners in the firm I work for was counselor to the President. One of his favorite quotes - proven correct on many occasions - is that:

a events surrounding a crime does not always yield a culprit; it's the coverup that gives away the culprit.

The coverup here was so badly botched as to be laughable if preceding event wasn't so tragic.

[Edited 2014-07-26 06:04:08]
 
rfields5421
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 53):
I move that the thread needs to be re-named immediately!!

The first thread was posted before there was the claim by the rebels that they had shot down an aircraft. Before there was additional evidence to confirm a surface to air missile was launched from the rebel held area with a Russian supplied advanced SAM system that hit and destroyed the aircraft.

In my experience, A.Net never renames a thread after the second continuation. That destroys a lot of references, and leads to duplication of a lot of material and a lot of confusion.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 73):
bluesky9 : pylon101

I suspect they are the same person, or at least work for the same Russia propaganda agency.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting mark787 (Reply 73):
I do not have an issue with accepting that a missle shot MH017 down. I am also one that will say that neither Putin nor the rebels shot this aircraft down knowing it was what it was. They thought they were shooting at a Ukraine Military aircraft, and I still believe that the one shooting it wasn't fully trained to perform this task as one would expect. So who ever it was said "shoot it down" "it's an enemy aircraft" didn't take the time to identify it as a commercial aircraft. In this circumstances, yes, Putin does have some responsibility because HE DID provide rebel's with weapons including the BUK system.

         Despite Putin's denials, 99% of the world - outside the Russian-media echo chamber - would agree.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 88):
All signs point to a separatist shoot down. Intercepted phone calls; eyewitness reports including the recently issued PR disaster on their hands.

If the Ukrainian separatists and their Russian minders TRULY believed that this was a shootdown by the Ukrainian forces, they 1) would not have TOUCHED ANYTHING, 2) would have been more than willing to let OSCE observers and media in without hindrance, 3) would have provided their own wireless monitoring intelligence amongst Ukrainian military forces and intelligence discussing how the Ukrainians shot the plane down.

However, none of this happened. Instead they made absurd assumptions (and you're following their line) along the lines of, well if we shot it down, its the Ukrainians fault. That is akin to the old adage that you can commit rape because your victim dressed provocatively. It was Russia's weapon (or their downstream separatists), their missile, their people, and their finger pressing that button. Hell, you even had a Ukrainian separatist commander (Igor Strelkov) admitting to it on social media.

         I have to laugh whenever the conspiracy theorists on this thread continue spread their delusional excuses. They blythly ignore the boasts and claims made by the separatists themselves, clearly admitting the shoot-down. At least, I have to laugh at those posing their outlandish theories now; if anyone else actually believed them, I would have to cry.
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:02 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 89):
I suspect they are the same person, or at least work for the same Russia propaganda agency.

Well in that case you skills at analyzing information are very poor.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 89):
I suspect they are the same person, or at least work for the same Russia propaganda agency.

The both went to the same propaganda charm school. Unfortunately, they both failed.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
76er
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:13 pm

A total of 227 coffins have been brought to the Netherlands till today, still a staggering amount of bodies that are unaccounted for. A 7 member dutch forensic team was stopped by the separatists this morning near Donetsk.
 
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yowza
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:23 pm

I'm watching CNN right now and there are 38 victims arriving in Eindhoven on an RAF C-17. It's really difficult to say anything that hasn't already been said. Let's hope the rest of the victims are repatriated with dignity soon.

YOWza
 
2175301
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:43 pm

The way this is all unfolding - in the investigation - and in the conflict is not encouraging. My key thoughts are to the families of the passenger and crew affected.


I feel compelled to comment on some of the post on this thread.

I was once offered a job where my job would have been to establish at least 20 separate web-identifies and post on various sites masquerading as a real person; but to occasionally insert the "companies" position or slant into the discussions going on in the web sites. I turned the job down just due to ethical concerns (that is not me) without regards to the money.

I also, unfortunately, have much experience with certain dating web sites where it turns out that the woman are paid for every conversation - and In a couple cases - every exchange they have with a man (sites that offer translation services). Of course these woman are not really interested in actually finding someone and meeting. But they can keep you going for months (and hundreds of dollars of translation fees)... I will admit that the translations were much better than Google Translate


There are clearly several posters on this that seem to be the paid kind of posters; although they lack the subtlety required for my previous job offer. While most of them seem to be on one side of the fence; there is at least one other on the other side that makes me wonder. So, be cautious on what people are saying. Use multiple different sources to verify things.

Have a great day,
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting tim (Reply 56):
Let's not get all PC in a serious thread like this anyway the thread title is a non issue with the loss of life involved here.

It is for the very reason of the innocent loss of lives, that the thread heading must convey what actually happened to them. They were shot down, not some mechanical failure that lead to the crash, some weather related issue or even worse a mid-air collision.

On the MH 370 thread when all those conspiracy theories were flying around, I had somewhere in the later threads indicated that there should be some respect for the dead, instead of gloating over who had the best theory. Unfortunately my comment was removed, for I think I had angered the a.net gods, a mere mortal reminding them of the basic essence of lives lost.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
Severnaya
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 60):
7. The distribution of passenger citizenships on MH17 is unusual. Of the hundreds of A/C that traveled that dangerous route how many would have shown ZERO "documented" US citizens (it is a good assumption that the dual Dutch/US citizen was traveling using his Dutch passport.) How many would also have ZERO Russians. Was this how MH17 was SELECTED?

As most of the other points this is utter nonsense. The distribution of citizenship is not unusual at all. The flight departed AMS, it is summer holiday period in the Netherlands, with many people going to SE-Asia/Australia on holiday and visiting relatives. Why would there be Americans on this flight? From the US you can arrive more convenient in KUL than via AMS. Why would there be Russians on the flight. There are plenty of options to KUL via MOW, Dubai etc. Many flights from Europe to Asia carry no RU or US citizen. Been recently on several flights out of AMS to NRT and KIX and most of these flights carry about 90/95% of Asians.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 68):

The comment section on zeit.de is full with this drivel. Yes. This is in stark contrast to Facebook where I can see the postings of many diverse people - there, I don't see any pro-Russian rants.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 91):

A good advice: Never ever ask what people are doing for a living. It might turn out that they are scientists, engineers, or God forbid - even accident investigators themselves. In my own work as a public health scientist I cannot discredit any evidence. Everything has to be weighed, evaluated, then put right piece into the right place of the jigsaw puzzle, re-evaluating the evidence again. If a study from 1958 gives a clue about the transmission dynamics of a disease, I cannot discard it.

But you're discarding evidence despite having no contradicting evidence.

That the separatists have shot down MH17 is a very clear case right now. I readily believe that they have shot down 9M-MRD due to carelessness, and I believe that they did not want to harm any passenger on any civilian flight. But still, carelessness can still amount to a criminal act, and the perpetrators must be pursued as criminals.


David

[Edited 2014-07-26 07:59:28]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mila
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:00 pm

I came across this article regarding a deleted BBC webpage, and they spoke about Ukraina military aircraft regulary did hide behind civilian airplanes before they attacked!

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/201...07/25/video-report-deleted-by-bbc/
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting mila (Reply 99):
I came across this article regarding a deleted BBC webpage, and they spoke about Ukraina military aircraft regulary did hide behind civilian airplanes before they attacked!

Even if they did so what, the rebels still messed up.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 91):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 89):
I suspect they are the same person, or at least work for the same Russia propaganda agency.

Aha. Sure. We have met at a trendy Kowloon hotel. The setting was from 1960s.

And I said: "Bluesky9, I presume."
And he responded: "And you are..."
"Pylon, - I said, - pylon101."
"Then we have business to discuss."
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
victrola
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:27 pm

Your world view is so warped

Quoting awthompson (Reply 86):
Governments or other apparently powerful entities are just not that 'smart' in my personal experience, they're made up of humans, not supermen/women! People who watch too many films are liable to becoming detached from the real human world.

Well said. The one thing that these conspiracy theorists don't seem to grasp is the human propensity to screw up. They also don't seem to grasp that as the amount of people involved in a conspiracy grows geometrically the probability of someone blabbing grows exponentially. This is why nobody is able to take people like Bluesky9 and Pylon 101 seriously. Their theories fly in the face of human nature.

The rebels screwed up in shooting down the plane, and they have screwed up in their efforts to hide the truth. I seriously doubt they intended to shoot down a passenger airliner. But in the chaos of war "stuff happens". This is the simplest and most logical explanation and requires no extraordinarily complicated plot.

And now I must get back to work and secretly warn U.S. airlines about another area not to fly over. Oops...
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Here is a thought that won't go away for me:

A BUK launcher vehicle without connection to its command / control vehicle has a very narrow field of view horizontally and is even restricted vertically; doing target acquisition with such a system has been aptly compared to looking at the sky through a straw.

The BUK launcher that fired on MH-17 was located just 3 km from the centerline of airway L-980, just under 4 km from airway L-69 and just under 10 km from airway M-70. At this location, the BUK launch operators viewing the sky through their available tunnel vision would obviously been scanning the sky to the west in order to find Ukrainian aircraft. Any aircraft on any of these three airways would have been a prime target. An accident waiting to happen in these circumstance is an understatement.

IMO, the social media posts absolve the BUK crew of intent in the shooting down of an airliner; but, I can't stop wondering if the location of the launcher was ordered / suggested by someone with a better understanding of the "big picture" which is usually only considered by people in the command vehicle.

I don't say that this is what happened, but I will say that I am not as certain of this being an accident as some of the other posters here.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:52 pm

Black box findings consistent with missile blast:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia...ox-findings-consistent-with-blast/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
LH707330
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 83):
b. Did Ukraine unintentionally create a situation where it was reasonably foreseeable that a
civilian airliner would be shot down eventually? If so then Ukraine was negligent and bears 100% of the liability. or
c. Did Ukraine unintentionally create a situation where it was NOT reasonably foreseeable that a
civilian airliner would be shot down eventually? If so then Ukraine is not responsible. The problem with this
is that the US "strong warning" is evidence that it was a foreseeable risk, at least for some entities.

If they unintentionally created a shootdown option, and the rebels unintentionally shot it down, you can't pin 100% of it on Ukraine, that's ludicrous. Bad risk assessment is a much lesser offense than bad target assessment.

Quoting victrola (Reply 102):
Quoting awthompson (Reply 86):
Governments or other apparently powerful entities are just not that 'smart' in my personal experience, they're made up of humans, not supermen/women! People who watch too many films are liable to becoming detached from the real human world.

Well said. The one thing that these conspiracy theorists don't seem to grasp is the human propensity to screw up. They also don't seem to grasp that as the amount of people involved in a conspiracy grows geometrically the probability of someone blabbing grows exponentially. This is why nobody is able to take people like Bluesky9 and Pylon 101 seriously. Their theories fly in the face of human nature.

Exactly. P(leak)=1-(r^n), where r is the reliability of those involved and n is the number, assuming they're equally reliable. Interestingly enough, we've seen a few of the rebels give interviews where they admit to pulling the trigger, funny how that happens.

Quoting dvautier (Reply 71):
I’m with you bluesky9. I would love to find the truth on this crash and it seems obvious that every government involved in this case is lying. Let’s put them in order by number of lies so far.
1) Ukraine - three or more.
2) USA - two
3) Russia - two
4) Separatists - one and a half

Which statements do you qualify as lies? These guys count ten from the Russians:
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-...ies-about-downed-malaysia-airliner
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:28 pm

On a British military forum, which I frequent as a lurker, there have been several trolls turning up since the Ukraine affair started last year.
As for these trolls, where we are sure that each username is being used by several people (each day a username has a different style of writing and arguing).
Two of these trolls, pretending to be Russian females living in the UK, have posted the weirdest conspiracy theories (of course, in all of them Putin is the shining hero), but all of these theories and blatant lies were very fast debunked by the unusually knowledgeable other posters (most of them are serving or former soldiers from mainly the UK, but also from other countries). In fact a few of the former soldiers have been with the British Military Mission (BRIXMIX) in the former GDR, and are specialists on Soviet and Russian equipment and their military (having gathered intelligence about them during Cold War).
Another former officer served with a British AA missile unit during the 1980s.
Many of them speak and read Russian, so that they can read the original texts quoted.
When caught out the supposed to be females became increasingly insulting and were eventually kicked out.
Another one is arguing a bit more coherent, but also avoids to respond if caught with apropaganda lie.

Since a few years the Russian intelligene service has used professional posters to spread propaganda and to influence social networks. As for the two "female" trolls, due to their writing styles changing throughout the day (including spelling errors), I suspect that each of them is in reality three paid posters, who work in shifts, but who's knowledge of
English language varies.

Jan

[Edited 2014-07-26 12:28:56]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
mark787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 103):

Your thoughts are not incorrect. Actually, It doesn't change the scenario at all. Any way you look at it, the shoot down of an aircraft was sought by the rebels and their Russian counterparts. So it's very logical that some folks in the higher rankings would have aided in the shoot down who possess much more knowledge on how to use the Buk system. Problem here was that the aircraft that they were intending to shoot down was not the aircraft that they thought it was suppose to be. I don't have any true facts to either back or debunk the claims that Ukraine would fly fighter jets closely behind commercial jets, but even if that is so, you then can understand to some extent, the trigger happy rebel or Russian advisor. Mistaken identity can happen to the best of the best, as we witnessed years back when the US shot down an Iranian passenger jet. Either way, whether it was a highly trained militant or a trigger happy rebel, I strongly feel this was a result of mistaken identity. Many things contributed to this tragedy, and many things could have been done to prevent it as well. I still say that the FAA warning US carriers to avoid the area does not translate into anything else than simply common sense and the possibility that the US were aware of the fact ahead of time that particular types of weapons were entering eastern Ukraine. And, in an act of caution, warned US carriers to remain clear of the area and not become a flying liability. The FAA did a similar action this past week with US carriers flying into TLV. So I don't take it as proof of a cover up but rather I take it as a responsible action taken to prevent an incident from occurring in the first place.
 
iowaman
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:44 pm

********************************Please read******************************

This thread is requiring heavy moderation. Please do not feed anyone who is trolling, but rather suggestion deletion of any post you feel breaks forum rules. This is not the place to discuss political ramifications as there is a thread for that located in non-aviation: Political Ramifications Of MH17 (by RomeoBravo Jul 17 2014 in Non Aviation)
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:11 pm

Quoting mark787 (Reply 101):
I don't have any true facts to either back or debunk the claims that Ukraine would fly fighter jets closely behind commercial jets

I can debunk that easily. The Ukrainian jets in question are SU-25s which can go nowhere near FL33 and are at least 50 kts slower than a 777 even if they could get that high.

If you want to "hide" behind another A/Cs radar signature you need to fly slightly above and closely behind the "quail", keeping your speed identical to the plane you are hiding behind. If you are to the right or left of the A/C that you are hiding behind (from the radar POV) or below or too far above the other A/C - or if you're not holding constant speed, you stick out like a sore thumb. Air defense operators are always very interested in seeing if they are tracking multiple targets and are trained to be that way.

So the story about Ukrainian jets hiding behind civilian passenger airliners is bogus.
 
md11sdf
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:53 pm

It would appear that there were some empty seats on MH-17, so the death-toll isn't well over 300. That's something...
However, consider this for a moment:

What would the reaction be if it were a British Airways, or Lufthansa A380 with 500-plus passengers and crew aboard that was "targeted" by the Russian/Ukrainian "separatists" IE Rebels? I'm thinking a whole lot more vocal!!

It shouldn't matter if it was an MD-80 with 120, or an A380 with 500, it is still a horrible act of war and should NOT be tolerated. This sterile PC "don't ruffle any feathers" world we live in has got to go!! It's time for REALITY.
LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY: Where your camera looks just like a stinger missile to the Airport Police!!
 
md11sdf
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:10 pm

The idea of Ukrainian Air Force Fighter Jets "hiding" among Passenger Airliners at cruise altitude IS operationally possible, but what would be the point? Fighters are useless at that altitude, unless they are on a long-distance transit, where there would be more fuel efficiency. Therefore, it should be discarded as a possibility.

More likely, the Russian made targeting radar did not have the ability to read the transponder data-block.
The radar would show a large juicy target approaching, like an Ilyushin IL-76, which the Ukrainians, like every other former Soviet Republic has plenty of in use.

Piggybacking on what tailskid wrote, the Sukhoi SU-25 "FrogFoot" is strictly a Ground Attack Aircraft. It's NO "Fighter".
It would be like calling American A-10 "Warthog" a "Fighter", which is laughable!!

[Edited 2014-07-26 15:16:04]

[Edited 2014-07-26 15:18:22]
LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY: Where your camera looks just like a stinger missile to the Airport Police!!

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