tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 105):

I think you're clinging bit too tightly to the adjective "fighter."

There is alleged to have been at least one Ukrainian Su-25 in the area of the shootdown at the time. The implication is clear that the BUK operators might have gotten them confused because the Su-25 was hiding behind the 777; as i point out that is not a possibility.

Nevertheless the point you make is also valid, although a Mig 27 or Mig 29 could possibly hide behind an airliner, that tactic would make no sense for the Ukrainians in any plausible scenario.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:00 pm

With all this talk about Ukrainian Ai Force "hiding" behind airliners it is relevant to repeat from an early thread what happened in this air space.

During the last 7 days up to the shootdown the area was crossed by 830 airliners from a few dozen airline companies. That's on average one plane every 12 minute, day and night, likely more at daytime as when the shootdown happened.

Top score was Aeroflot with 86 crossings. Most of the large western European flag carriers were high on the list as well.

MH17 was trailed 15 miles behind by SQ351. Also within a few minutes flight time was an Air India plane in the opposite direction.

So the "hiding" would be more like hiding in a constant cloud of airliners.

If we imagine that the Ukrainian Air Force was "hiding", wouldn't they do it behind an Aeroflot plane, or behind one of the many planes from other Russian airline companies?
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ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 104):
It would appear that there were some empty seats on MH-17, so the death-toll isn't well over 300.

The flight was sold out. Remember that a family of three was turned away at the airport.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 108):
Quoting md11sdf (Reply 104):
It would appear that there were some empty seats on MH-17, so the death-toll isn't well over 300.

The flight was sold out. Remember that a family of three was turned away at the airport.

One news report said there was only one empty seat and the family didn't want to split up.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:57 am

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 91):
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 60):
7. The distribution of passenger citizenships on MH17 is unusual. Of the hundreds of A/C that traveled that dangerous route how many would have shown ZERO "documented" US citizens (it is a good assumption that the dual Dutch/US citizen was traveling using his Dutch passport.) How many would also have ZERO Russians. Was this how MH17 was SELECTED?

As most of the other points this is utter nonsense. The distribution of citizenship is not unusual at all. The flight departed AMS, it is summer holiday period in the Netherlands, with many people going to SE-Asia/Australia on holiday and visiting relatives. Why would there be Americans on this flight? From the US you can arrive more convenient in KUL than via AMS. Why would there be Russians on the flight. There are plenty of options to KUL via MOW, Dubai etc. Many flights from Europe to Asia carry no RU or US citizen. Been recently on several flights out of AMS to NRT and KIX and most of these flights carry about 90/95% of Asians.

Agree. It would be very unusual for any Russians to be on that flight. It's up to 50% further via AMS than via many much shorter routes.

SVO-AMS-KUL 6,691 nm

SVO-DEL-KUL 4,447 nm
SVO-BKK-KUL 4,493 nm
SVO-SIN-KUL 4,720 nm
SVO-DXB-KUL 4,999 nm
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 106):

I think you might mean Su-27 here. The Ukrainian Air Force has retired their MiG-27s.
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:55 am

I still have no idea what an investigation authority is going to deal with all that?
Okay. All data were downloaded. And now what?

We found out from CBS that it was a missile. Good. We never thought it could be anything else but a missile.
I am obviously not patient enough.
Perhaps, the issue of what would be investigation body is not yet solved?

It sounds completely reasonable for me that the investigation should be under ICAO, with various teams working together and sharing information.

Taking into account the circumstances, I am specifically waiting for the crew conversations. An important info might be in comments preceding the warhead explosion.

I still believe that fragments of the missile may be the only key. Those can be found on the ground.
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Winterapfel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:13 am

Quoting 76er (Reply 85):
A total of 227 coffins have been brought to the Netherlands till today, still a staggering amount of bodies that are unaccounted for.

Please all, be aware of the following: 227 coffins does not necessarily equal 227 bodies. On Dutch TV is was explained that many coffin contain a collection of body parts, not necessarily from one body and also not necessarily summing up to a complete body. This means it is not clear how many complete bodies there are or how many positive IDs can be generated from those 227 coffins.
It was also explained that given that it's over a week now and that still parts are being collected, smaller parts will have started to disappear because of decomposition.... Many bodies will never be complete as a result.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:58 am

This picture is quite eerie: http://files.newsnetz.ch/bildlegende/157559/1944023_pic_970x641.jpg

"Have lost their 25 years old daughter on Flight 17: Jerzy Dyczynski and Angela Rudhart-Dyczynski visit the crash site (July 26th, 2014)"


David

[Edited 2014-07-27 03:11:53]
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:12 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 113):

The same report says that preliminary information from the FDR readout points to a sudden and massive decompression, compatible with a missile strike.

http://bazonline.ch/ausland/europa/E...artiger-Druckabfall/story/21956736


David
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factsonly
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:34 pm

The situation this weekend as described by Julie Bishop - Australia's Foreign Minister :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUAqOJZp8VM
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:35 pm

Dutch inspectors were supposed to visit the crash site today, but were told it was unsafe to do so because of fighting in the area.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-site-access-ukraine-investigators

I was surprised when I learnt this earlier today, as the crash site is quite far from the frontlines.

Now reports are coming in that Ukrainian troops have entered Shakhtarsk and Torez, to the southwest and south of the crash site. They are reported to have moved on Shakhtarsk from the north, from Debaltseve (28 km northwest of the crash site), which they entered just in the last couple of days.

If confirmed, this would be one of the boldest moves yet of the Ukrainian military in the course of this war. It would cut off the Donetsk area from the other rebel-held territories.

Importantly, it would also put the Ukrainian military in a good position to seek to secure the crash site.

UPDATE: Ukrainian forces are reported to be advancing rapidly on various fronts around the crash site, and are getting closer. A spokesman of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council confirmed that the troops are seeking to secure the crash site.


In other news, a lawsuit is being prepared against Putin over MH17

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...er-alleged-role-in-MH17-crash.html

[Edited 2014-07-27 06:38:00]
 
Winterapfel
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:40 pm

From Dutch Newsletter "De Telegraaf", conformation of earlier news.

....
What the members of the identification teams are encountering, is to "indescribable", said the chief of the National Police, Gerard Bouman, on Monday during the meeting in the House of Parliament.

Even very experienced members of the identification teams are having a terribly difficult time. What is found in the bags with human remains is "really awful" reported Bouman. "In the body bags are bits and pieces together, big and small. Some pieces are burned or severely damaged". It is not possibly to say how many victims have been transported to the Netherlands.
....
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:15 am

So what is on the voice recorder? It seems that the “violent decompression” leak came out real fast. How long does it take to transcribe the conversations between the pilots and the air traffic controllers? And since the Ukrainians won’t tell us I think we may want to know.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:34 am

Regarding airlines flying over warzones with the hindsight of MH17 (Qantas over Iraq):

http://www.9news.com.au/National/201...-wont-change-flight-path-over-Iraq

So this is the cost of the diversion:

"Diverting flights to Europe via Egypt and Saudi Arabia would add 45 minutes and $22,000 to each flight from Australia."

If the pilots did in fact see ground fire then I wonder if this is an issue they have brought up with their union and the union may be looking into? Could a stage be reached where the union threatens some kind of industrial action if it feels that flying over a warzone is a safety risk? Surely the safety of the pax would be raised as well...

Just thought I would mention this... BTW it looks as if there are plenty of planes over Iraq nonetheless  
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:56 am

I find it quite odd that the voice recordings were not released yet.
I know that a preliminary report is scheduled for the 1st if August.
However, I still have no idea what investigation body looks like.

The unexpected Ukrainian Army "advances" made the crash site completely out of reach.
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flyboy_se
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:35 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 115):
"Diverting flights to Europe via Egypt and Saudi Arabia would add 45 minutes and $22,000 to each flight from Australia."

I have noticed that most planes fly over eastern Iraq, close to Iranian border. Would it be that much of a detour to route the flights over Iranian airspace instead and then continue over Turkey?? Doesent seem like that big of detour, unless there is some restriction that does not allow overflying Iran.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:43 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 116):

There has been a modest proposal about streaming all CVR and FDR data live to a.nut, complete with cockpit and cabin cameras. Sadly, the esteemed AAIB (A.nut Accident Investigation Bureau) has been trampled over and over, and the Ukrainian army has denied us access to their secret archives to determine why they fired at MH17, and Russia has detained our expedition corps which was tasked to retrieve the Buk launcher, and haul it to our technical laboratory in Atlanta, USA.


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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 116):
I find it quite odd that the voice recordings were not released yet.
Quoting dvautier (Reply 114):
So what is on the voice recorder? It seems that the “violent decompression” leak came out real fast. How long does it take to transcribe the conversations between the pilots and the air traffic controllers? And since the Ukrainians won’t tell us I think we may want to know.

Voice recordings or FDR data are not released by the AAIB to the press on an ongoing basis.
They usually gather information and publish a preliminary report with partial transcripts

There is nothing odd about it in the slightest, pylon101

[Edited 2014-07-29 02:57:42]
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:09 am

I happen to know how investigation usually works.

I am wondering if AAIB is going to be the investigative body?
Or we still get an authority under ICAO?
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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:17 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 120):
I happen to know how investigation usually works.

Then why said you found it odd that no voice recordings were released yet?
If you know how it works, why find it odd?

AFAIK, the AAIB are analysing the recorders only due to their expertise in the matter. As such they will release their findings to whomever is in charge first and foremost. I think I read somewhere that the Dutch, who suffered the most out of this, will be heading the investigation.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:44 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 121):
I think I read somewhere that the Dutch, who suffered the most
out of this, will be heading the investigation.
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 120):
I happen to know how investigation usually works.

I am wondering if AAIB is going to be the investigative body?
Or we still get an authority under ICAO?

LIke garpd writes, Ukraine handed over the investigation responsibility on a request from the Netherlands;

Quote:
“We are responding to the request of our Dutch partners. They launched the request.
The Dutch people suffered the most,” Mr. Yatsenyuk said Monday, the Wall Street Journal reports.
“This is the right thing to do. This is a humanitarian gesture. It will add more independence to the investigation.”

http://time.com/3012477/malaysia-air...ukraine-crash-dutch-investigation/

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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:57 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 122):

I think reading ICAO annex 13 should be mandatory before signing up with airliners.net.  

I've summarized the whole stuff in Air Algerie Flight AH5017 Crash (by sxb Jul 24 2014 in Civil Aviation) .


David
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting mika (Reply 124):

Thanks. Well, I heavily borrowed from AF447: Final A.NET Crackpot Report (by AirlineCritic May 29 2011 in Non Aviation) 

I also eagerly await the August 1st preliminary report. In the AF447 case, they could very well explain what happened. Also the CVR transcript was, if I remember correctly, published well before the final report. This prelim report could give loads and loads of answers - but about the most relevant question (who fired the rocket) - we'll wait for many weeks and months longer.

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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:52 pm

Well well my last post became such a mess I can't even edit it anymore. Link in English to the relevant page of the Safety Board on MH17 here:

*http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014*
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:08 pm

Thanks, Flyingturtle, for refreshing my memory regarding annex 13.
Oh those AF447 discussions...

So the Dutch Safety Board. That's alright.
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:30 pm

I am just wondering.
Imagine, just imagine for a second that there is phrase in voice recording; something like "Seeing military aircraft on 11 hours; going 10,000 feet lower. Oh, my God. They are launching a missile."

Even if there was a 5% probability that it had been developing that way - what would the British/Dutch do?
Or would have done?

Just wondering.
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garpd
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 129):

I am just wondering.
Imagine, just imagine for a second that there is phrase in voice recording; something like "Seeing military aircraft on 11 hours; going 10,000 feet lower. Oh, my God. They are launching a missile."

Even if there was a 5% probability that it had been developing that way - what would the British/Dutch do?
Or would have done?

Just wondering.

Gut reaction: The powers that be would look at all available satellite and radar data (military and civilian), will find out what plane was where, identify the culprit and then quite rightly pursue them to try them for war crimes.

But, as that is not what happened. Who knows!
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alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 129):

I am just wondering.
Imagine, just imagine for a second that there is phrase in voice recording; something like "Seeing military aircraft on 11 hours; going 10,000 feet lower. Oh, my God. They are launching a missile."

Even if there was a 5% probability that it had been developing that way - what would the British/Dutch do?
Or would have done?

They would follow that information and present it honestly. Their disaster investigators are truth-seekers; it is in the interest of (almost) everyone, in their view, to find the cause of the disaster. Unlike the Russians, they are not here to spread disinformation and spin wild conspiracy theories.
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boefan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Cockpit window section matched: Heavy shrapnel damage above window consistent with SA-11 blast.

http://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/494116643040010241
 
nupogodi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting boefan (Reply 132):
Cockpit window section matched: Heavy shrapnel damage above window consistent with SA-11 blast.

yeah like a week ago
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting boefan (Reply 132):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 133):

Yes, but the new thing is that they've put together *two* wreckage pieces, both forming the cockpit windows. Until now, I have only seen pictures of the fragment that has red and blue stripes.


David
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GiveMeABreak
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:14 pm

I don't know if somebody of you has seen this video of the Russian evidence presented in relation of the MH17 shutdown:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=631_1406192241

Immediately after the shot down of MH17, the crash site was somewhat easily accessible for almost everybody who wanted to.
In light of the latest escalation of fighting in and around the crash site, mostly by the Ukrainian army for whatever reason, why right at this point in time is beyond me, when the world is looking forward for the investigator team to visit the site?

In relation to the video, which present the Russian perspective of the situation, a radar return can be seen without transponder return climbing into radar range of 5000m+ of altitude, while the original MH17 transponder return is flying errant, probably shoot at this point.

Could the two radar signatures been related to an inflight break up of MH17 into big enough pieces to produce this kind of return, or is it as the Russian claim a fighter jet?

Your input is appreciated.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:47 pm

Somewhere I have read, I think on a German website, that the missile in question did not have as much shrapnel as evidently hit 9M-MRD. The site explained that the Buk missile had at most about a pound or two of steel balls.
In comparison, other missiles (possibly air to air) have a higher quantity of shrapnel and tally more with the damage we see.
Can anyone shed some more light on this?
 
dvautier
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:26 pm

I read the same article and it does raise questions but I don’t think some of those holes were exit wounds. They look more like tearing and if you notice some of the shrapnel near the window just grazed off.

So what does “consistent with an SA-11 burst” mean? First of all I am always suspicious of anybody who uses “consistent with”. It’s blurs important distinctions and lends a false sense of authority to statements that might be illogical. It's doublespeak.

I wonder what kind of shrapnel an SA-11 warhead contains? Does anybody know? I notice in the hi-def pictures there were different size holes and also excessive tearing of the skin. Others too have suggested an air-to-air but there’s too many holes for an air-to-air I think. Some holes are big, as if there were some pretty sharp irregular shaped hot metal pieces spinning around and flying very fast. So lets open up an SA-11 warhead and see what’s there.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:55 am

Reply to YoungMans (Reply 134):

An air to air missile would have a much smaller warhead than a SA-11, that argues against an air to air missile, if one thinks there is "too much shrapnel."


BTW
Here is the most detailed catalog of the crash site yet:
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

[Edited 2014-07-29 17:59:37]

[Edited 2014-07-29 18:00:43]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 134):
Somewhere I have read, I think on a German website, that the missile in question did not have as much shrapnel as evidently hit 9M-MRD. The site explained that the Buk missile had at most about a pound or two of steel balls.
In comparison, other missiles (possibly air to air) have a higher quantity of shrapnel and tally more with the damage we see.
Can anyone shed some more light on this?

That sounds very strange.

The Buk has a 140 to 160 lbs warhead depending on model (shrapnel + explosive). Being no missile Expert I doubt very much that the warhead is 99% explosives and only 1% shrapnel.

The Russian "standard" medium range air to air missile (on Mig-29, Su-27 and others) is the R-77 (NATO name AA-12 Adder) has a 50 lbs warhead. The similar US missile, the AIM-120, has a 40 or 50 lbs warhead depending on model.
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:32 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 137):

The relative masses of fragments and explosives:

Mk-84 general purpose bomb - it has just a fuse, fins, explosive and then the steel casing.

925 kg is the full weight of the bomb, and 429 kg is the explosive. In the Mk 82, it's 227 vs. 87 kg. I assume that most of the casing weight serves to produce fragments, so... hm.

I couldn't find the weights of a missile warhead.  


David
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:22 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 136): http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

Great link, thanks. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, where this overview gives a little overview of all pieces.


Edit: Copied the URL in it

[Edited 2014-07-30 04:25:25]
 
mika
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:50 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 136):

BTW
Here is the most detailed catalog of the crash site yet:
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

Great link! Happy to see that WSJ put this up free of charge as they are very keen on charging for articles etc on their site.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 136):
Quoting 456 (Reply 139):
Quoting mika (Reply 140):

One clear pattern seems to emerge - the debris with the highest aerodynamic drag are more north-western, while the engines and the center fuel tank structure landed more to the south-west. Is it possible from this debris pattern to estimate the breakup altitude?

Are there other patterns visible in the WSJ material on this site?

David
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LH707330
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 141):
Is it possible from this debris pattern to estimate the breakup altitude?

I'm not sure the pattern, so much as the type of damage, is the most important. Given the shrapnel damage to the nose and left wingtip, combined with the peeled-back fuselage panels, I'd say the breakup was almost immediate.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:23 am

Just heard on the news here in Australia that there are reports that the pro-Russian rebel separatists have places land mines in areas around the crash site. Don't know the validity of the reports but they apparently came from the Ukraine military. Nonetheless, that is sickening news if true...
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 143):
Just heard on the news here in Australia that there are reports that the pro-Russian rebel separatists have places land mines in areas around the crash site. Don't know the validity of the reports but they apparently came from the Ukraine military. Nonetheless, that is sickening news if true...

There were multiple reports here in the USA of the same today (your yesterday). Sickening.

I've been to the Netherlands and I have to say they are the most gracious, social and respectful people I've ever met. I am so heart broken about how these separatists have treated the passengers of this flight. I think we've passed the line of humanity and I find it really sad.
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:09 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 143):
Just heard on the news here in Australia that there are reports that the pro-Russian rebel separatists have places land mines in areas around the crash site. Don't know the validity of the reports but they apparently came from the Ukraine military. Nonetheless, that is sickening news if true...

Am i the only one who would like to see these guys head on a pole more than anything else? To this point no one has taken responsibility for this thing either...it is indeed sickening. I pray for karma in this case.
 
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flyingturtle
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 143):

If this is really true, I can imagine such a scenario:

1. Separatists plant land mines. 2. The investigators need to be accompanied by the Dutch army's mine clearing and EOD specialists. 3. Russia is outraged because NATO soldiers now enter Ukraine, and denies that mines have ever been planted.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:15 am

It would be interesting to get objective opinions on why it is so important that even at this stage there must still be investigations, on site, so thorough that it will take weeks, or at least many days.
What is gained by that? What more is there, in broad terms, that we don't know already?

We must not forget, whatever that work is, it is right in the middle of a war.
While the investigators are doing their job, it'll be to the advantage of one side. Common sense tells us, the other side won't like that at all. No matter how many agreements might have been reached in the glass castles of the politicians; the final word rests with the commanders on the front, on both sides.

Wouldn't it be kind of logical for the investigators to get on with it, as quickly as they possibly can, load most of the left over pieces onto trucks and transport them to the Netherlands or wherever. There they can take as long as they need to confirm the aircraft was shot down and how it might have happened.

[Edited 2014-07-31 04:19:41]
 
PhilBy
Posts: 833
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:27 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 147):
What is gained by that?

They don't leave bits of body lying around for the scavengers.

I assume that there are also parts of the missile mixed in with the ac. If they find any part that has a serial number they may be able to trace the origin and history of the missile definitively.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:03 pm

Our evening radio news just reported that Australian and Dutch troops/police have managed to establish themselves in the crash area and they have begun their search for bodies etc.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 8

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:39 pm

Unfortunately, no.

Upon arrival near the site, the investigators were confronted with very heavy fighting and large explosions (artillery?).
The area is still considered unsafe, so the team will RTB.

This according to a Dutch RTL reporter live at the scene in the past hour.

In other news, Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop told reporters that approximately 80 bodies should still be near the crash site.

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