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kenanc
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AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:05 am

It's been almost a year since the A319s have entered the AA fleet, and all I see is them doing short flights. The longest that I know of is CLT and BOG (correct me if I'm wrong, though). I just flew it yesterday DFW-CRP, which is only about an hour's flight! The inbound flight was from Wichita, another crazy short flight that would understandably be flown with an RJ.

I'm loving a mainline flight to a route I fly a lot on, but I feel as if these planes could be better used? An aircraft equipped with IFE on an hour flight is useless... (mine was broken, anyways). Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

A year is much for "getting used to" an airplane. I would love to see these on 738/M80 routes like SNA, SLC, RDU, PDX. It makes more sense, doesn't it?
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:26 am

They will be used on medium thin routes and they will be used on routes that cannot fill a 738 or 321, even if they are short routes.
 
KD5MDK
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:38 am

Given the narrow seat pitch in both cabins I'm glad they're on as short a route as they can be.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:38 am

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Not to be "that guy" but there are tons of short routes that can handle multiple of narrow bodies a day. For example, IAH-SAT/MSY/AUS, ATL-Florida, HNL-OGG, among a lot of others. Wasn't HA even running 767s between OGG and HNL for a while? And we all know DLs love affair with sending widebodies to MCO.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:48 am

with the A319's range at 3700 Mi. there are many routes the A319 could fly easily. Domestic and International,
 
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MD80
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 2):
Given the narrow seat pitch in both cabins I'm glad they're on as short a route as they can be.

I´ve read several times in the internet, that the seat pitch and comfort of the American Airlines A319 is narrow. Makes me wonder because the whole majority of people cheerfully welcomed the A319 as an improvement over older aircraft. So the A319 should be the often demanded answer as a replacement of older aircraft. A newer aircraft should always be the answer of the urgent demand for more comfortable flights in quieter cabins.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:56 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
I´ve read several times in the internet, that the seat pitch and comfort of the American Airlines A319 is narrow. Makes me wonder because the whole majority of people cheerfully welcomed the A319 as an improvement over older aircraft. So the A319 should be the often demanded answer as a replacement of older aircraft. A newer aircraft should always be the answer of the urgent demand for more comfortable flights in quieter cabins.

This is America; newer is ALWAYS better, even when it clearly isn't better at all.

And quieter cabin? The 319 is certainly a very quiet ride, yes, but the MD-80 still wins the quiet competition... at least for everyone sitting over the wings and forward!
 
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:11 pm

At AA, the CR7s were restricted in number by mainline pilot contract. The E75s and 319s haven't been delivered in really big numbers yet (just 14 319s if I'm reading planespotters.net correctly). That leaves a very big gap in available aircraft between 50-seat ERJ-145s (fuel cost challenged) and 140-seat MD-80s. The 319 might replace an MD-80 on a shortish route that has yield pressure, and on and on...

In the space between ~250 50-seat CR2s and 117 142-seat MD-88s, Delta has:

- about 275 CR7/CR9/E70/E75, seat counts 65-76

- 29 110-seat 717s (count rising to 88 by end 2015)

- 10 124-seat 737-700s

- 57 126-seat A319s

AA will get some flexibility (still a year away?) on a single operating certificate where it has ability to assign US Airways-origin aircraft but comprehensive fleet rationalization is 5+ years away.
 
commavia
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
At AA, the CR7s were restricted in number by mainline pilot contract.

True, although that restriction is now gone. AA is now free to add dozens upon dozens of new large RJs - thus the order book of new EMB175s and CRJ900s.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
The E75s and 319s haven't been delivered in really big numbers yet (just 14 319s if I'm reading planespotters.net correctly). That leaves a very big gap in available aircraft between 50-seat ERJ-145s (fuel cost challenged) and 140-seat MD-80s.

It's not that big a gap anymore, and it's closing very rapidly. The new large RJs (EMB175s and CRJ900s) and A319s are being delivered at the rate of several per month.

Indeed, we're already starting to see visible signs of just how quickly this gap is closing - with many 50-seat markets now getting 2-class large RJs, and multiple formerly-all-Eagle markets now seeing mainline (A319s and/or MD80s).

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
In the space between ~250 50-seat CR2s and 117 142-seat MD-88s, Delta has:

AA is very rapidly moving in that same direction. AA has a very large (>300) fleet of small RJs to replace, but they are leaving they fleet at a fairly rapid pace, and again, there is tons of new capacity coming online to replace them.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
AA will get some flexibility (still a year away?) on a single operating certificate where it has ability to assign US Airways-origin aircraft but comprehensive fleet rationalization is 5+ years away.

True - "comprehensive" fleet and schedule rationalization cannot happen yet given the lack of a single operating certificate. However, I highly doubt we're going to have to wait five years for that to come - in fact, we're already seeing the beginnings of cross-scheduling of aircraft starting in the next few weeks. And in any event, that doesn't really have anything to do with the use of larger RJs to fill the gap between 50-seaters and smaller mainline jets - that, too, is already happening now, regardless of the lack of a single operating certificate.
 
9w748capt
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):

Flight duration has nothing to do with it. DFW-OKC sees S80 service 6-7x/day most of the year, and this is barely 30 minutes in the air. As others have said the 319 allows AA to better match capacity to demand both in terms of down- and up-guaging. Not sure about ICT, but may have been a case of upgauging an RJ OR downgauging from an S80 as they're retired anyway.
 
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:01 pm

What is the seat pitch and/or width for the AA 319?
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:30 pm

According to what AA is telling analysts, the MD-80 (or as AA used to insist on calling it, "the Super 80") fleet is due to be retired by 2018. IIUC, the MD-80 routes are being steadily replaced by A319s, 738s, or are being handed over to lift providers flying either the CRJ-900 or E175. Some of these MD-80 routes are short-haul, others are medium-haul. By the time the MD-80s are gone, pre-merger AA should should have a healthy fleet of A319s, which will join up US's already-substantial A319 fleet once the single operating certificate is hammered-out.
 
9w748capt
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):

What is the seat pitch and/or width for the AA 319?
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Not to be "that guy" but there are tons of short routes that can handle multiple of narrow bodies a day.

I would have been "that guy" if you hadn't...

KenanC: Distance is not the only factor that determines equipment size. If demand is high enough, then there's no reason to use smaller aircraft. (An exception is when a higher frequency is necessary...and profitable.)

US uses their A319s for PHL-BWI and PHL-DCA once in a while, which are both less than 30 minutes by air.

And I think you're too young to recall that two decades ago many US airlines were regularly flying 747s domestically. That's still a very common practice in Asia.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
but the MD-80 still wins the quiet competition... at least for everyone sitting over the wings and forward!

   The MD-80 behind the wing is noisy. The MD-80 also is LOUD when window seals leak and I've been on more than a few MD-80 flights with that squeal. It isn't a quiet plane by any means except at the front on a lucky day.

By why the debate? AA is retiring the type. DL has placed their last major parts order.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
According to what AA is telling analysts, the MD-80 (or as AA used to insist on calling it, "the Super 80") fleet is due to be retired by 2018.

AA couldn't go much longer than that. They haven't been buying certain spares so they're having to pull parts from retired examples to keep the fleet going. There is only so long that lasts. The vendor supply chain is no longer required to stock certain spares as the purchases are below the contract minimums. Now, there are still parts in the chain, but they are drying up and the demand isn't sufficient enough to do large batches of parts. Hence why the part prices are going up.

The MD-80 is unfortunately done. Not immediately. But the parts chain has broken down. The parts used less frequently are now only available on custom order (unlikely) or scavenged from used MD-80s. The parts still being bought new (tires, brakes) are still healthy. But with the AA and eventually DL retirements, the writing is on the wall...

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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
AA couldn't go much longer than that. They haven't been buying certain spares so they're having to pull parts from retired examples to keep the fleet going. There is only so long that lasts. The vendor supply chain is no longer required to stock certain spares as the purchases are below the contract minimums. Now, there are still parts in the chain, but they are drying up and the demand isn't sufficient enough to do large batches of parts. Hence why the part prices are going up.

The MD-80 is unfortunately done. Not immediately. But the parts chain has broken down. The parts used less frequently are now only available on custom order (unlikely) or scavenged from used MD-80s. The parts still being bought new (tires, brakes) are still healthy. But with the AA and eventually DL retirements, the writing is on the wall...

Lightsaber

Is DL having some of the same issues? I would think it'd be even harder for them because they have less already-retired airframes. I suppose their average age is less, but isn't the supply chain the same?
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citationjet
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
I just flew it yesterday DFW-CRP, which is only about an hour's flight!
Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Today, Sunday, July 27 AA is operating 15 MD-80 flights from DFW to SAT, and 15 flights DFW to AUS, of which 12 are MD-80s.

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 2):
Given the narrow seat pitch in both cabins I'm glad they're on as short a route as they can be.
Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
I´ve read several times in the internet, that the seat pitch and comfort of the American Airlines A319 is narrow.

I agree, after riding the A319 from ICT to DFW a few times it is not a comfortable aircraft. Very tight quarters, and the IFE never seems to work. It would be painfully uncomfortable to ride it on a long flight like DFW to BOG, over 5 hours non-stop. On July 17 the flight duration BOG to DFW was 6 hours 3 minutes. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20140717/0545Z/SKBO/KDFW

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
What is the seat pitch and/or width for the AA 319?
According to seatguru, the A319 is 30 in pitch with 17.7 in width. The MD-80 is 31 - 32 in pitch with 18 in width.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 9):
Not sure about ICT, but may have been a case of upgauging an RJ OR downgauging from an S80 as they're retired anyway.

ICT had both RJ and MD-80 flights operating daily prior to the A319. AA replaced both the RJs and MD-80 when they went to the A319 for DFW to ICT. They replaced 65 seat RJs and 142 seat MD-80s with 126 seat A319s.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
The 319 is certainly a very quiet ride, yes, but the MD-80 still wins the quiet competition... at least for everyone sitting over the wings and forward!

I agree with that. Can't beat the MD-80 when seated in front of the wing.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting citationjet (Reply 16):
It would be painfully uncomfortable to ride it on a long flight like DFW to BOG, over 5 hours non-stop. On July 17 the flight duration BOG to DFW was 6 hours 3 minutes.

Ive done DFW-BOG round trip. I had the exit row both ways and it wasn't bad. However, I have sat in a normal seat on an AA 319 and that would be one uncomfortable trip. I felt it was pretty tight quarters overall.
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f18raider
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:47 pm

It was slated to come to LBB before the first delivery, but LBB hasn't seen any thus far. All MD80.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:14 pm

I guess the question I have is how the seating configuration on the A319 will be standardized between AA and US. AA currently has the A319 as F8, MCE 18, and Y 102 for a total of 128 seats. US has F12 and Y 108 for a total of 120 seats.

Clearly, for AA to get 12 more seats into the coach cabin, while offering MCE seating, means reducing the leg room for the standard Y seating. You can't get enough room, just by removing the 3rd row of first class.

It looks to me that AA, at first, wasn't planning to put the A319 on routes that had a lot of road warriors or elite AAdvantage members. An MD-80 has only 12 more seats, but it has twice as many F seats (16) and seven more MCE seats (25). It actually has fewer standard Y seats (99) than the A319 (102).

I'm sure that the seating configuration was set by Arpey/Horton management team. So, Parker's team may revisit the issue, before they start reconfiguring the US A319 cabins.
 
flyenthu
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:08 pm

I just booked DFW-YYZ on an AA 319.
 
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:23 pm

Here on A.net and other forums, I've read quite a bit of complaints about AA's A319.
Most address: seat-pitch, uncomfortable seat (cushions), netted "cheap" seat-pockets that don't hold much, small tray tables, frustration with IFE (limiting storage space), overall cramped economy cabin, relatively small number of First Class seats.
As more of this type enter the fleet, could a significant number of complaints draw some consideration toward a reconfig or rethinking of the slimline seat?
 
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drerx7
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:29 pm

I flew the 319 ON IAH-DFW. ...it's not a comfortable bird in Y.
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JBAirwaysFan
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:09 am

Wouldn't mind seeing them put this on MCI-ORD. It went all E-jets now.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:39 am

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Are you kidding? What about the CASM and win-win for the airlines and passengers that results when you match high capacity to high demand? Should LAX-SFO be all 75 seats and less? Have the Japanese been morons all these years with 747s and 773s as short haulers? Come on.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
Makes me wonder because the whole majority of people cheerfully welcomed the A319 as an improvement over older aircraft.

IFE and new over old.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
And quieter cabin? The 319 is certainly a very quiet ride, yes, but the MD-80 still wins the quiet competition... at least for everyone sitting over the wings and forward!

From a passenger comfort perspective, there is no comparison between the MD80 and A319. The Douglas wins every time. Same is true of a 737 v. MD80.
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:46 am

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 13):

KenanC: Distance is not the only factor that determines equipment size. If demand is high enough, then there's no reason to use smaller aircraft. (An exception is when a higher frequency is necessary...and profitable.)

NW used to operate DC-10s on DTW-MSP (and this was in the early 2000s). That's about a 1.5 hour trip, but they're both hubs so there's a lot of inter-hub traffic. They also used 753s.
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ozark1
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 2):
Given the narrow seat pitch in both cabins I'm glad they're on as short a route as they can be.
Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 21):
Most address: seat-pitch, uncomfortable seat (cushions), netted "cheap" seat-pockets that don't hold much, small tray tables, frustration with IFE (limiting storage space), overall cramped economy cabin, relatively small number of First Class seats.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. and Yes. I can't get the tray table completely unfolded in the back, (i think that's why they're small) it's that tight, the seat cushions slope down and forward in f/c for some reason, the netted seat pockets are horribly tacky and the IFE area under each seat was so large and restrictive of storage that I was concerned from the start. Ugh. It's always something.
 
razorbackfan
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:32 am

The A319 is an absolutely terrible ride in coach. I flew DFW CLT and back and it was miserable. I couldn't get any work done, literally couldn't open my cpu enough to get work done and I'm not a huge guy either. The IFE which is nice was maybe 4 inches from my face.

I will not get on a AA 319 again, Im a platinum with AA but have flown other carriers over the past 2 months to avoid the AA 319. Its terrible.
 
UA444
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
NW used to operate DC-10s on DTW-MSP (and this was in the early 2000s). That's about a 1.5 hour trip, but they're both hubs so there's a lot of inter-hub traffic. They also used 753s.

UA used the DC-10s domestically on short hops from ORD. DTW, BWI, CLE, and others all saw DC-10s well into 2000. Now, you're lucky to get a mainline aircraft at all.
 
trent1000
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:51 am

I LOVE the A319! I found it quiet (aft window seat), smooth and 'zippy'. Fast take off roll too.
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MSPNWA
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:54 am

I can understand the A319 fitting a demand gap between a large RJ and MD, but AA's decision to use them so frequently on short-haul routes really puzzles me. The cost structure in that environment just can't be ideal.
 
aacun
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:58 am

The plane will be flying to Brazil (MAO) from what I've heard, very soon.
 
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 21):
As more of this type enter the fleet, could a significant number of complaints draw some consideration toward a reconfig or rethinking of the slimline seat?

A significant number of people complain about baggage fees, change fees and all other ancillary revenue fees, as long as they continue to pay them while complaining nothing will change.
I suspect the same will apply in this situation, add in the fact that consolidation has removed some choices from the market place, the airline can now more properly match its customers to its products.
 
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
I can understand the A319 fitting a demand gap between a large RJ and MD, but AA's decision to use them so frequently on short-haul routes really puzzles me.

They're pretty much used on everything. This month for example the average departure is around 750miles, and about a quarter of the departures are over 1000 miles. It's a new fleet type, probably looks night and day better than the M80 it replaces, and as the fleet grows it's going to end up doing everything, including longish haul to BOG and hops to MCI.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 26):
the netted seat pockets are horribly tacky and the IFE

I suspect this is on purpose, and I kinda like them because passengers are *filthy* and will stick anything and everything in seat back pockets. This largely prevents that--you can't put a soiled nappy in there 
Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 21):

Here on A.net and other forums, I've read quite a bit of complaints about AA's A319.

It's the same for the DL/UA739, any narrowbody in Europe these days...the slimline seat is just not that comfortable, especially on longer flights. And it's only going to become more prevalent as it is lighter and allows more seats to be installed.

Quoting citationjet (Reply 16):
I agree, after riding the A319 from ICT to DFW a few times it is not a comfortable aircraft. Very tight quarters, and the IFE never seems to work.

I've only done F on the 319, and the IFE worked, but it was one of the best selections and most responsive IFE I've ever seen. The F product is really slick--and I *love* an M80, but I have heard that Y is nothing but the pits.
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citationjet
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting razorbackfan (Reply 27):
I will not get on a AA 319 again, Im a platinum with AA but have flown other carriers over the past 2 months to avoid the AA 319. Its terrible.

I am doing the same. The AA 319 is the only aircraft on the ICT to DFW segments. I have started flying other airlines out of ICT to avoid the 319 to DFW.
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commavia
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
I can understand the A319 fitting a demand gap between a large RJ and MD, but AA's decision to use them so frequently on short-haul routes really puzzles me. The cost structure in that environment just can't be ideal.

Again - it's really a situational thing. There are some shorter markets where AA dominates and has high fares where the A319's inferior economics on such shorter sectors is suboptimal but the offsetting dilution in yields from moving to a larger jet would be worse. But in general, I agree with you, the economics of these plane do not seem well suited to very short sectors, and indeed I'm sure that's precisely why AA configured the jets as they did - to pack as many people in as possible and make a run at improving the economics, at least somewhat.

I suspect we aren't going to see A319s in as many shorter markets going forward - particularly once the merger integration is complete. I suspect we'll see AA use them selectively - like Delta is doing with its A319s and 717s - in select Eagle markets that can handle a peak-time upgauge (like an evening departure out of a hub, RON at a spoke, morning originator back) - but otherwise I think these planes are likely heading to longer sectors.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
It's a new fleet type, probably looks night and day better than the M80 it replaces

In terms of the IFE and seats, it looks way nicer. But I would absolutely still take the MD80 any day if given the choice - not only is there better legroom, but there is also less chance of a middle seat.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
and as the fleet grows it's going to end up doing everything

  

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
I suspect this is on purpose, and I kinda like them because passengers are *filthy* and will stick anything and everything in seat back pockets. This largely prevents that--you can't put a soiled nappy in there

  

I didn't mind the mesh pockets at all for precisely that reason - it seemed far, far cleaner.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
From a passenger comfort perspective, there is no comparison between the MD80 and A319. The Douglas wins every time. Same is true of a 737 v. MD80.

I'll take the 738 over the MD-80.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
In terms of the IFE and seats, it looks way nicer. But I would absolutely still take the MD80 any day if given the choice - not only is there better legroom, but there is also less chance of a middle seat.

I should have clarified--I meant the 319 looks *financially* better than the M80. But yes the fittings also look better if you don't have to ever sit in it.
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DexSwart
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
An aircraft equipped with IFE on an hour flight is useless...

I don't see how IFE is ever an issue? It does other flights, in addition to the hour long ones.

NZ and QF have AVOD equipped aircraft doing hour long hops. Heck, even on 767s! Gate to gate IFE, but the point remains. It's not very long at all. I still manage to get a few good episodes of the IT Crowd or Big Bang Theory in? Don't like it? Don't use it.   

And as for the rest, I mean, the A32X series is extremely versatile. It's built to do exactly this, short hops one day, longer, more demanding flights another. As is the 737, but that's not the focus for this thread.

They A319's are supposed to do some flights to Northern Brazil soon, no? MAO?
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting citationjet (Reply 16):
Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
I just flew it yesterday DFW-CRP, which is only about an hour's flight!
Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Today, Sunday, July 27 AA is operating 15 MD-80 flights from DFW to SAT, and 15 flights DFW to AUS, of which 12 are MD-80s.

It would not surprise me to see AA operating over 100 mainline flights within Texas per day. It is a big state with significant demand. If all the flying within Texas was downgauged to Embraers, then there would be big problems at DFW. Southwest and American flying huge numbers of people out of Dallas and around Texas. Many connect in DFW, but it is a huge market. The A319 is perfect for a route that cannot sustain 737-800s or MD-80s, but needs more than 50-70 seat RJs.

Quoting KenanC (Thread starter):
I'm loving a mainline flight to a route I fly a lot on, but I feel as if these planes could be better used? An aircraft equipped with IFE on an hour flight is useless... (mine was broken, anyways). Short routes like these should be flown with an E75 or less.

Fleet planning is done by maximizing revenue and minimizing cost per seat mile. Having good IFE is not much of a reason to push A319s to longer routes. IFE is great, but the capacity and costs of the airplane are what decide the route network. There are many cities with high frequency within 500 miles of Dallas that justify an airplane the size of the A319 where an MD80 or 738 is too big. The A319 does not have as good of operating costs per seat mile as the larger planes like the 737-800 or A321, but these short haul markets justify the capacity.

[Edited 2014-07-28 06:44:13]
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AAplat4life
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 39):
It would not surprise me to see AA operating over 100 mainline flights within Texas per day. It is a big state with significant demand. If all the flying within Texas was downgauged to Embraers, then there would be big problems at DFW. Southwest and American flying huge numbers of people out of Dallas and around Texas. Many connect in DFW, but it is a huge market. The A319 is perfect for a route that cannot sustain 737-800s or MD-80s, but needs more than 50-70 seat RJs.

The Old AA said that the A319 would be used for long-thin flights to open up new markets. I never found that entirely convincing (with a few exceptions), and so we're seeing the A319 on several domestic flights via DFW. For many of these routes, however, the E175/E190 would be just fine and probably more cost effective for AA. Particularly with more competition from Southwest, AA would be able to compete more effectively, and the E175 has more first class seats. For intra-state travel and other markets served by Southwest non-stop, increasingly we could see DFW handling connecting traffic and DAL more O&D.

It remains to be seen what AA will use to replace many other MD80 flights, such as DFW-ONT, PSP, FAT, and MSP. There is just not a comparable MD80 size replacement. FAT and MSP might be good A319 candidates, but the others may have to go up to the B738. By now, ORD-DFW should be all 738s; too many passengers are being left behind. In October, there will be one 738 and 767 on this route.
 
commavia
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 40):
It remains to be seen what AA will use to replace many other MD80 flights, such as DFW-ONT, PSP, FAT, and MSP. There is just not a comparable MD80 size replacement. FAT and MSP might be good A319 candidates, but the others may have to go up to the B738.

I think there are a lot of these mostly or entirely MD80 markets out of DFW that are, indeed, probably going to end up being a mix of 737s and maybe some A319s thrown in. The other wild card may end up being some of the PMUS A320s which have a smaller F cabin than AA's 737s (12 vs 16 seats). As those jets start to flow more and more through PMAA hubs, they could well make sense for some of these more leisure-oriented markets (at least in off-season) like FAT and PSP where paid premium demand is relatively less than some other markets those 737s could operate.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 40):
By now, ORD-DFW should be all 738s; too many passengers are being left behind. In October, there will be one 738 and 767 on this route.

The volume in that market is absolutely astounding - lots of connections at both ends, to be sure, but the local traffic is insane. I suspect this market is staying with primarily MD80s because AA still has pricing power at the moment, and also because it provides operational flexibility to flow MD80s between these two hubs throughout the day. I agree, though, that in due course this market will likely end up being mostly if not entirely 737s, just like ORD-LGA and ORD-BOS.
 
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cv990Coronado
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:43 pm

Pity AA make the Y class so tight it gives the aircraft a bad name. Flown on them many times on SAA and BA in Y and J.
Nice aircraft better than the 737 in Y I think. But, it takes a lot to beat the five abreast Y class MD 80 especially forward of the wing. Surely these days most people have tablets or phones to entertain them ? Is IFE so important for a couple of hours? There is always a book   
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:10 pm

I flew ATL-DFW three weeks ago on an AA A319, and absolutely hated it.

It did not help that a very plus sized woman was in the middle seat, and spilled into my seat, but even if Ms. Fatso had not been my seat mate, it would have been unpleasant because:

1. The seat pitch, as others have said, is noticeably tighter than in an MD-80.

2. An IFE box is under each window seat, which further reduces legroom (I was barely able to get my small suitcase under the seat in front of me, because of the IFE box).

My DFW-MSP MD-80 flight was noticeably more comfortable.

Now that I've logged an AA A319, I will not voluntarily fly on one again.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
They're pretty much used on everything. This month for example the average departure is around 750miles, and about a quarter of the departures are over 1000 miles.

That's a confirming sign of not flying everything. Just take a look at the routes AA is using their A319s in. They're definitely skewed towards short-haul. I saw only two flights yesterday blocked for longer than 3 hours (DFW-BOG and DFW-YEG). It took me just seconds to find a couple MD-80 routes over that barrier (EWR-DFW and DFW-PDX). While MD-80s plod around in all directions for longer flights like PDX, EWR, PHL, SAN, SMF, DTW, and PIT, the A319s are primarily getting milk runs like IAH, MFE, CRP, ELP, LIT, MEM, HSV, and ICT, with some "longer" flights like SDF, CLE, ATL, and CLT mixed in. 750mi is the same as DL's stage length, which is very short. And DL is just trying to find a home in ATL for an existing fleet type to minimize the damage from their high CASM. Totally opposite situation from a new type, but AA is using them the same way to this point. Very strange strategy.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:40 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 28):
UA used the DC-10s domestically on short hops from ORD. DTW, BWI, CLE, and others all saw DC-10s well into 2000. Now, you're lucky to get a mainline aircraft at all.

November 1979 schedule ORD-CLE:

UA - 4 DC-10, 3 737-200
NW - 1 DC-10, 3 727-200, 1 727-100
Braniff - 2 727-200

ORD-DTW same date:

UA - 1 747, 2 DC-10, 3 737-200, 1 727-100
AA - 2 DC-10, 2 707, 3 727-200
NW - 1 DC-10, 4 727-200, 1 727-100
DL - 1 DC-9-30
 
commavia
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 45):

November 1979 schedule ORD-CLE:

UA - 4 DC-10, 3 737-200
NW - 1 DC-10, 3 727-200, 1 727-100
Braniff - 2 727-200

ORD-DTW same date:

UA - 1 747, 2 DC-10, 3 737-200, 1 727-100
AA - 2 DC-10, 2 707, 3 727-200
NW - 1 DC-10, 4 727-200, 1 727-100
DL - 1 DC-9-30

That's what happens with competition. It's an oversimplification, of course, but one of the major factors contributing to the change is the evolving competitive landscape during that time. Today, ORD-CLE sees more daily flights (19) than the route did back then, albeit on smaller airplanes and with only two competitors, but of course you also now also have MDW, which when you add that in brings the overall CHI-CLE market to a grand total of 26 daily flights. CHI-DTW is even more pronounced - the market still has four competitors as it did in 1979, but now those competitors now operate a grand total of 34 flights in the overall market (versus 21 back then).

Again - there are certainly other confounding variables at play here, but it must be said that, while many lament the near-total absence of widebodies from domestic routes today, particularly short sectors like these, part of that is driven purely by the fact that it's just a far more competitive market than it was back then. Today, it would be a lot harder for AA to fill a DC10 BUF-ORD, or United a 747 ORD-DTW, if for no other reason that purely because it's near impossible for one airline to capture that large a portion of the market at any given time of the day.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:00 pm

I think the consensus seems to be, if youre going in an AA 319, go in MCE or dont go at all. Thats my plan.
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WA707atMSP
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 46):
Again - there are certainly other confounding variables at play here, but it must be said that, while many lament the near-total absence of widebodies from domestic routes today, particularly short sectors like these, part of that is driven purely by the fact that it's just a far more competitive market than it was back then. Today, it would be a lot harder for AA to fill a DC10 BUF-ORD, or United a 747 ORD-DTW, if for no other reason that purely because it's near impossible for one airline to capture that large a portion of the market at any given time of the day.

Two other factors affecting ORD-DTW:

1. In 1979, the speed limit on I-94 was 55 mph. Now, it's 70 mph, loosely enforced. The increase in the speed limit has reduced Chicago-Detroit drive times at least an hour, which definitely affects leisure travel between the two cities.

2. There were nonstop from Detroit to just nine cities west of the Mississippi in 1979: DFW, DEN, IAH, MCI, LAS, LAX, MSP, STL, and SFO. DTW-ORD flights carried a lot of connecting passengers to other cities west of the Mississippi, that are served nonstop from DTW now thanks to DL's hub.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA A319s Meant For Shorthaul Ops?

Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 41):
The volume in that market is absolutely astounding - lots of connections at both ends, to be sure, but the local traffic is insane. I suspect this market is staying with primarily MD80s because AA still has pricing power at the moment, and also because it provides operational flexibility to flow MD80s between these two hubs throughout the day. I agree, though, that in due course this market will likely end up being mostly if not entirely 737s, just like ORD-LGA and ORD-BOS.

A firend of mine who flies for AA has heard through the rumor mill (and we know that pilot rumors must be taken with multiple grains of salt) that at some point, the ORD MD-80 crew base will close, and that all MD-80 flights in and out of ORD will be handled by DFW crews. So, while ORD-DFW will eventually see other aircraft types, it will still have a number of MD-80s, just so that the MD-80s can get "ferried" into and out of ORD for various turns.

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