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gennadius
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting Basefly (Reply 50):
Are they not also still looking at VLA's, and not yet decided?

They are, but this is also about the 5th time that they have stated this and that they are close to a decision. My opinion is that this time they do seem really intent on actually making a decision, but only time will tell.

As to the lease issue, it is reported in articles that they would prefer direct purchases:

Quote:
The chairman said that while his company will consider what mode of acquisition represents the best value, it favors direct purchases from Airbus and Boeing. An outright deal for the A380 or 747-8 would come as a blow to Mark Lapidus, CEO of lessor Amedeo, who wants to place 20 A380s with airlines

Source: Bloomberg Article
Per ardua, ad astra
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 44):
That would be some wasteful insurance? I mean what exactly are you trying to ensure?

A scenario like this one. Insurance against non-payment is pretty common in other industries, so why not in aircraft manufacturing? The way I understand it, progress payments are for work already completed, not pre-payment for future work, so presumably Airbus is out of pocket right now.

At least SkyMark is still around to be sued if no agreement can be found, but what if it had gone bankrupt? What if it was based in a country where the rule of law is approximate at best?

Airbus may sell the frames later, but how much later? How much will it cost to modify the frames to the new customers' specs?
 
neutronstar73
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:59 pm

Oh my, how the internet can save and reveal how wrong so many people can be:

Skymark And The A380 (by TC957 Feb 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5996988&searchid=5998132&s=skymark+a380#ID5998132
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27365
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting gennadius (Reply 53):
My opinion is that this time they do seem really intent on actually making a decision, but only time will tell.

I have to believe that IST's terminal and tarmac constraints are impacting their decision, at least if they want the A380*. I just don't see where they could park one - even the remote stands don't look like they have sufficient space and remote stand loading and unloading an A380 sounds like a nightmare.


* - Yes, I am fully aware that the 747-8 is in the same category as the A380-800. However, the wingspan is physically only a few meters more than a 777/A330/A340 so she should, at least span wise, be able to fit in a gate or remote stand used by those planes. That being said, her length could be an issue with taxiway clearances for both the gates and remote stands.



Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 55):
Oh my, how the internet can save and reveal how wrong so many people can be:

Looking back at that thread, there was some good points, IMO, raised by both those who felt the venture would be a success and those who felt it would not be a success. It appears the doubters won the day, but hindsight is always 20-20.  Smile

[Edited 2014-07-28 13:06:32]
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1015
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting Basefly (Reply 11):
Would EK not look to snatch these up, would imagine that they want all the ones they can get (that's what TC says anyway)

I doubt it, why would they operate a tiny sub-fleet with different engines? TK is a more likely candidate.

Is it possible to re-engine an A380, RR>EA and vice versa?
 
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LAXintl
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:57 pm

IST Ataturk is not A380 ready.

There was only a single gate stand where the A380 could be parked during demo flights however without the jetway being used.

Additionally all movements of A380 on the field caused adjacent runway or tawiway closures.

EK a year or two ago inquired about 380 ops @ IST, but was declined by the state airport authority.

Only current Turkish airport capable of handling the A380 is Antalya and a lesser degree Ankara. Istanbul's 2nd airport SAW will be A380 ready by 2016 as part of its 2nd runway and satellite terminal project. Otherwise things will need to wait till the new airport opens in Istanbul.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Prost
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:19 pm

I honestly don't think Delta will take Skymark's 6 A380 fromes, however it does put an interesting wrinkle on Delta's 50 aircraft RFP. 6 A380s to handle the core high traffic trunk routes, available very soon, and then smaller widerbodies for other flights. If the price was right, it might pencil out, and if anybody could create a deal, it'd be John Leary.
 
evomutant
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 56):
If the price was right, it might pencil out, and if anybody could create a deal, it'd be John Leary.

And with Skymark presumably having paid a fair chunk of the cost of these planes already, Leahy probably has lots of price flexibility- and he'd have no hesitation using it for the PR coup of getting a big US legacy operating the type.

Still, I put the odds at 30/1.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:32 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):

All this talk about TK looking to operate a VLA soon and IST is not A380 ready yet?!


Quoting Prost (Reply 56):
6 A380s to handle the core high traffic trunk routes, available very soon, and then smaller widerbodies for other flights.

Smaller bird with a wider body than an A380? Now that'd be the ultimate Obeseliner! Sorry, couldn't resist! 
 
Prost
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:33 pm

Sorry, I meant Leahy, and ad I've been reading about VS 6 A380s on order, amd some people seem to think that DL is calling the shots at VS...

Food for thought. I honestly don't see the A380 at DL, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in shock if it happened, either. Airbus and Delta are both shrewd dealmakers, and these two entities can become quite creative when necessity dictates.
 
AA94
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 43):

As indicated above, this was Skymark's game to lose. Airbus has likely already received substantial down payments, and they get to keep the asset and make additional monies off a future resale.

Perhaps it's a logistical headache, depending on how much (if any) of the interior needs to be reconfigured, or if it were to be re-engined, but Airbus certainly will not be taking financial losses on these frames.
 
aviationaware
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting evomutant (Reply 57):
And with Skymark presumably having paid a fair chunk of the cost of these planes already, Leahy probably has lots of price flexibility

Actually, I tend to believe that Leahy already exerted some price flexibility for Skymark. I doubt that they have paid very much of the planes up to now and would be rather confident that they had pretty sleak contract conditions. I don't think they would ever have ordered them if it were different.

Unfortunately we may never know, because airframers want to keep some mystery up and the airlines won't disclose their conditions either in fear to disclose that they overpaid.
 
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Revelation
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 56):
I honestly don't think Delta will take Skymark's 6 A380 fromes
Quoting Prost (Reply 59):
I've been reading about VS 6 A380s on order

Nice, now we're up to 12 frames for DL's imaginary A380 fleet: 6 because the Skymark ones are too good a deal to pass up, and 6 because DL won't want to see VS try to ingest the 6 they have on order!  
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airbazar
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
My only question is that if TK wants the A380 and wants it soon, why did they not secure a long-term lease from Amedeo?

Amedeo was too expensive? Maybe they are anticipating a few airlines to cancel their order so they can pick them up really cheap?  
Quoting gennadius (Reply 50):

As to the lease issue, it is reported in articles that they would prefer direct purchases:

They can buy these  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):

Additionally all movements of A380 on the field caused adjacent runway or tawiway closures.

That's true here at BOS too but that's not stopping the airport from building 3 A380 gates and we fully expect them to be utilized by next Summer. The bigger question at IST is where to park them. Will this new international terminal being built, have A380 gates? Adding an additional jetway to an existing gate shouldn't take very long either.
As for EK not being allowed that could have been to protect TK.
 
racercoup
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:50 pm

For all his detractors on this site, time is proving Mr. Aboulafia to be more right than wrong. IMHO
 
Prost
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:12 pm

A stopped clock is right twice a day as well.
 
RickNRoll
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
It probably was because they could not get all the financing. This is not the first time that a late cancellation happened.

Wouldn't this be an opportunity for Amadeo?
 
KELPkid
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:06 am

I'm suprised that they couldn't get a leasing company to buy the frames and bridge the financing gap for them. This is the usual state of affairs in aviation...it must mean that Skymark is in really dire financial straits if they could not get a leasing company to step in   

And the frames are probably mostly paid for, too, as Skymark would have paid most of the production costs by now and the progress payments. This would be money down the hole for them
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bunumuring
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 65):

A stopped clock is right twice a day as well.


What a brilliant saying! I love it!

So it appears that Turkish may have issues with the potential early introduction of A380s due to Istanbul Airport not being A380-compliant.... Not sure if that means it can't happen fast enough and a possible Turkish deal is just that: still possible.

Could these two jets be sold as VIP flying palaces? That would be a PR coup. The remaining four could be reassigned to existing customers with firm orders outstanding with a little financial persuasion from Airbus.

As to Skymark, had they started ticket sales for the flights on the A380s? I'm guessing this would be 'news' in Japan. ANA and JAL would be happy, I'm sure, to see the Skymark deal fall through. The prestige of having the 'biggest' still counts in some ways in Asia.

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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smolt
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:59 am

Skymark's press release says that Airbus offers conditon for accepting cancellation that Skymark get under the rule of
other major airliner, otherwise Airbus would charge 'outrageous cancellation penalty'. And that skymark can't agree because they have to keep management independency.

Regarding money shortage two things should be taken to consider; in two years Japanese Yen have been rapidly weakened against USD or EUR by about 20% - 30%. this means just that the frame price raise 20% -25% up. Another thing is Skymark gets severe competition against recently emerging LCCs. I flew from Narita to Fukuoka last April on Jetstar for only about 6800 yen ( 66USD) . Skymark was not an option then because the fee would have been doubled or even trebled. Skymark stands in halfway position between the Lagacy and the LCC. If you afford money you fly on JAL or ANA. If you save money you fly on Jetstar.
 
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LAXintl
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 63):
Will this new international terminal being built, have A380 gates?

What new international terminal?

SAW is getting a midfield concourse and will be able to handle A380s, but not IST.

Of course, the 3rd airport will be able to handle the A380.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
astuteman
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:27 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
It appears the doubters won the day, but hindsight is always 20-20.

At least it would have been if they'd actually called the reason for this failure correctly.
But they didn't. They just lucked out

Quoting Prost (Reply 65):
A stopped clock is right twice a day as well

Indeed. It's a game we could all play if we felt like being spoilers.

Rgds
 
Prost
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:14 am

So, which customer that operates the A380 with RR engines would be in the best position to take additional frames? SQ and BA seem to be on the top of my list, I'm sure QF would want them, they just wouldn't want to part with money to have them.
 
MaverickM11
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:07 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 72):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
It appears the doubters won the day, but hindsight is always 20-20.

At least it would have been if they'd actually called the reason for this failure correctly.
But they didn't. They just lucked out

Oh please. It was foresight 20/20 as any airline with Skymark's business plan had no hope of ever flying the 380 without insane losses.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:38 am

Quoting Basefly (Reply 5):
what has changed so much in the business plan of BC to warrant this cancellation?

Fuel prices have doubled or perhaps even tripled since they placed the order. Low fares and a low amount of seats are not going to work in today's world. The aircraft comes with a high trip cost and cheap tickets are not going to cover it.

On top of that, it's difficult to make low-cost long-haul work in today's economic climate.

That leaves the question why they would drop the order while the aircraft are in assembly.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 32):
In the following article, they say one of the A/C is partly customized.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
That may refer to things like galley / lavatory hookups and IFE runs.

That's nearly impossible, the aircraft never entered an outfit hangar in XFW.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 37):
Well to be fair, the Amedeo order is highly speculative

Speculative orders are booked all the time by lessors (ALC, ILFC, etc) and are listed as firm order.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 48):
So they (Hong Kong Airlines) bought 40 A320's, 30 A321's and they're gonna take delivery of all 10 A380's?

I never said they are going to take those 10 A380s. I said the Hong Kong Airlines order was moved to an undisclosed customer several months ago, and might stay that way.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 61):
I doubt that they have paid very much of the planes up to now and would be rather confident that they had pretty sleak contract conditions. I don't think they would ever have ordered them if it were different.

Deposits are in the millions (dollars of course, not Mexican pesos).

Quoting racercoup (Reply 64):
time is proving Mr. Aboulafia to be more right than wrong

Nope, he has been proven wrong multiple times before.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Unflug
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:59 am

The wording in the press release sounds a bit unusual, at least to me:

Following discussions with Skymark Airlines and in light of the airline’s expressed intentions in respect of the A380, Airbus has in accordance with its contractual rights, notified Skymark Airlines that the purchase order for the six A380s signed in 2011 has been terminated. Airbus is reserving all its rights and remedies.

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse...er-with-skymark-airlines-for-a380s
 
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:23 am

Quoting smolt (Reply 69):
Regarding money shortage two things should be taken to consider; in two years Japanese Yen have been rapidly weakened against USD or EUR by about 20% - 30%. this means just that the frame price raise 20% -25% up. Another thing is Skymark gets severe competition against recently emerging LCCs. I flew from Narita to Fukuoka last April on Jetstar for only about 6800 yen ( 66USD) . Skymark was not an option then because the fee would have been doubled or even trebled. Skymark stands in halfway position between the Lagacy and the LCC. If you afford money you fly on JAL or ANA. If you save money you fly on Jetstar.

Thanks for your insight.

Skymark Airlines already made huge investments for the A380. For example, they bought an A380 simulator several years ago and trained pilots. Not all A380 customers have them because they are very expensive. So there they are, stuck with an A380 simulator.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
MeCe
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:28 am

Regarding to IST A380 readiness, Mr Orhan Birdal told that current cargo terminal will be demolished and some gates will be buld that area which are 380 capable.New cargo terminal is almost comptlete btw. There will be still ground operation issues with 380 but if price is right TK will jump on this.
 
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anfromme
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:32 am

I agree - the press release sounds quite unusual - "in light of the airline’s expressed intentions in respect of the A380"?
By this press release, it wasn't Skymark who cancelled, but Airbus. Which seems unusual - I would have expected Skymark to be the cancelling party if they had problems financing the planes.

What sort of "expressed intentions" would give Airbus the contractual right to terminate the contract while still reserving all rights and remedies (which presumably refers to compensation/penalty payments, etc.)?
42
 
aviationaware
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:37 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 78):
Deposits are in the millions (dollars of course, not Mexican pesos).

Sunk costs spent years ago are pretty irrelevant to decision making today.

This endeavor sure hurt them, but it's still better to get out now than incur even larger losses in the future.
 
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BoeingVista
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:40 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 82):
What sort of "expressed intentions" would give Airbus the contractual right to terminate the contract while still reserving all rights and remedies (which presumably refers to compensation/penalty payments, etc.)?

A long deferal?
BV
 
scouseflyer
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:08 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 82):

I agree - the press release sounds quite unusual - "in light of the airline’s expressed intentions in respect of the A380"?
By this press release, it wasn't Skymark who cancelled, but Airbus. Which seems unusual - I would have expected Skymark to be the cancelling party if they had problems financing the planes.

Maybe it was their "expressed intention" to not pay all or part of their bill and Airbus said "on your bike!"

I wonder if they might end up closing as an airline at this rate?
 
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:17 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 85):
I wonder if they might end up closing as an airline at this rate?

Well, they are still paying for their 737s and A330s.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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PM
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:04 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 82):
I agree - the press release sounds quite unusual

Worded very carefully by a lawyer, is my guess.
 
Asiaflyer
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:11 am

Looks like it was not a very freindly termination either. The article from Reuters below surprises me:

"In a briefing in Tokyo before Airbus's announcement, Skymark's CEO and chief investor, Shinichi Nishikubo, said that the European aircraft maker had refused to consider changes to the 2011 purchase agreement, including reducing the number of aircraft or offering smaller jets and had notified it of the termination in a faxed message on Sunday.
"We didn't get the chance to sit down and have a formal discussion," Nishikubo said."

Must been a fair bit of disagreement before Airbus takes this step.
 
Flyglobal
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:17 am

I beleive that behind teh scenes, more is going on.
The japanese government was upset with JALs decisison to buy Airbus planes.
Not sure about Skymark.
In the following JAL did not get Haneda Slots- Also Skymark didn't get them.
So their operations probably have counted on those slots, now not available for the foseeable future.

Now in addition they seem to be in trouble due to new competitors which haven't been around when tehy ordered.

So this is one side of the story.

Now: Why did Airbus cancel: I beleive that they do not see a chance anymore that skymark gets it act together- at the same time probably manufacturing plane 3 and 4 would have to be started.
And also Airbus could see a chance to bundle those A380s into the package for Delta with extremely short delivery time.

just a scenario, as a cancelation by the manufacturer is unusual.

Regards

Flyglobal
 
StTim
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:22 am

If true that the Japanese Government backs Boeing to that extent it is worrying. Closes the market to Airbus and would ensure Boeing gets high margins and Japanese airlines and travellers lose the benefits of true competition.
 
aviationaware
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 90):
The japanese government was upset with JALs decisison to buy Airbus planes.
Not sure about Skymark.
In the following JAL did not get Haneda Slots- Also Skymark didn't get them.
So their operations probably have counted on those slots, now not available for the foseeable future.

What a load of BS. Sorry.

JAL came short in the last HND slot allocation because ANA rightly pointed out that JAL had been bailed out by the government and it would be just fair if ANA got the better end for slots in exchange.

Skymark was never in the game for international slots in HND and couldn't have used them either as Haneda doesn't allow the A380 during reasonable hours.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 90):
And also Airbus could see a chance to bundle those A380s into the package for Delta with extremely short delivery time.

Delta will not be getting any A380s. Period. I find it rather unbelievable that despite Delta saying they wouldn't get A380s if hell froze over, there are still loads of people here suggesting that they are just waiting for scraps. No.

Please excuse my tone, but the suggestions that Delta may want to pick up any A380s are just becoming ridiculous by now. This has become clutching at straws. They said no and a no is a no, plus they make no sense at all for DL's operation. We have been through that topic countless times.
 
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:41 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 93):
Skymark was never in the game for international slots in HND and couldn't have used them either as Haneda doesn't allow the A380 during reasonable hours.

Precisely. Perhaps slot allocation is even the biggest issue.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 93):
Delta will not be getting any A380s. Period. I find it rather unbelievable that despite Delta saying they wouldn't get A380s if hell froze over, there are still loads of people here suggesting that they are just waiting for scraps. No.

And if I may add: please let's not turn this thread into yet another Delta/A380 discussion.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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garpd
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:44 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 91):
and travellers lose the benefits of true competition

To be honest, the average traveller would not see any benefit even if the airline got the aircraft for free.
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:53 am

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 88):
"In a briefing in Tokyo before Airbus's announcement, Skymark's CEO and chief investor, Shinichi Nishikubo, said that the European aircraft maker had refused to consider changes to the 2011 purchase agreement, including reducing the number of aircraft or offering smaller jets and had notified it of the termination in a faxed message on Sunday.
"We didn't get the chance to sit down and have a formal discussion," Nishikubo said."

That's even more odd. Even unprofessional, if true. They are obviously not telling the whole story.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
81819
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:56 am

CAPA has quite a good article on this including some analysis of Skymark's flight operations.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...mmends-an-umbrella-solution-179903

One of the reasons noted for the cancellation was Skymark couldn't find anyone to finance the frames.

In any case the order was probably a little optimistic in the first instance.
 
StTim
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:56 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 95):

To be honest, the average traveller would not see any benefit even if the airline got the aircraft for free.

Have to disagree - if there is true competition in a market then it would feed through. One of the reasons Ryanair was so successful with their low cost campaign was the price they managed to negotiate from Boeing.
 
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zeke
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 96):
That's even more odd. Even unprofessional, if true. They are obviously not telling the whole story.

This has got a lot more detail, my guess (and that is all, no inside info), is they were due to a progress payment on the first aircraft when it started flying.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...mmends-an-umbrella-solution-179903
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aviationaware
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 96):
That's even more odd. Even unprofessional, if true. They are obviously not telling the whole story.

Well, this seems to have been going on since at least April and I imagine there have been plenty of talks between Airbus and Skymark since then. This seems to have been Airbus' ultima ratio and the fact that they pulled it off is not only shedding negative light on Skymark, but on the Airbus management team as well. This order was always highly specualtive, the prospects for Skymark's business plan were dim to say the least and I would expect Airbus to notice that. Why those planes ever went into final assembly can only be explained by collective failure in both companies.

Quoting garpd (Reply 95):
To be honest, the average traveller would not see any benefit even if the airline got the aircraft for free.

Prices are determined by the market (which particularly means competition) and not by a companies costs. Pricing a product after its costs is the easiest way for a company to fail.
 
airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:12 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 70):
What new international terminal?

SAW is getting a midfield concourse and will be able to handle A380s, but not IST.

Sorry I'm confusing airports. I believe IST is extending the international terminal into what is today the cargo terminal. That's what I was refering to. Will that new addition have A380 gates? I would be surprised if it doesn't.
 
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KarelXWB
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 99):
This order was always highly specualtive, the prospects for Skymark's business plan were dim to say the least and I would expect Airbus to notice that.

That's not up to Airbus to decide. Even if Skymark could not fix the required slots at HND airport, Airbus can force the airline to take the aircraft as specified in the contract.

Before Sabena went bankrupt, Airbus forced them to take the A340s, despite knowing the company had no money left. Contract is contract.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
StTim
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Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:20 am

Pricing is very complex - It must take account of the market and your costs. If you can supply a product at a price that is attractive to the market and is above your costs you succeed. Supplying poducts at below cost with no reasonable expectation you can change that equation around is a recipe for disaster long term.

At present both Boeing and Airbus have lines that are worrying/troublesome on this measure. The 787 break even on cost to build Vs Price has struggled - but not as much as the A380 has.

I am not totally clear if either of the break even points includes the contribution to development (sunk) costs or are pure manufacturing costs. But even then you have tooling costs which could be considered sunk.
 
aviationaware
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Airbus can force the airline to take the aircraft as specified in the contract.

Before Sabena went bankrupt, Airbus forced them to take the A340s, despite knowing the company had no money left. Contract is contract.

Sure, but if it forces the company into default, it might be worth rethinking if producing the frame(s) was the right choice in the first place.
 
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KarelXWB
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Airbus cancels Skymark A380 order

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:29 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 103):
Sure, but if it forces the company into default, it might be worth rethinking if producing the frame(s) was the right choice in the first place.

Agreed, the timinig is not perfect.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
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