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LAXintl
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Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:18 pm

The airline everyone loves to hate, pulled off another record quarter.

Net profit $66.5mil up from $45.8 in 2013 - a net margin of 21.3%

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/spirit...unces-record-second-100000439.html


More details after earnings call.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:23 pm

21% op margin. Up 3pts YOY. Must be all that great IFE.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
727LOVER
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The airline everyone loves to hate, pulled off another record quarter.

Net profit $66.5mil up from $45.8 in 2013 - a net margin of 21.3%

Giant middle finger to all these angry pax. LOL  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSKihtmxNos
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:30 pm

I predict every or near every airline's domestic coach product will be like Spirit's in 10 years.
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Must be all that great IFE.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Giant middle finger to all these angry pax.

Exactly. It's not about what people say they want, but what they value enough to actually be willing to pay for. Spirit has obviously found a very large - and apparently growing - pool of people throughout the Americas who would rather put up with an inferior product but keep more cash in their pocket. To each their own. Good for Spirit.
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):
I predict every or near every airline's domestic coach product will be like Spirit's in 10 years.

I completely agree with this statement. I don't get why some haven't already started doing it.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:17 pm

Some notes from earnings call.

o Another record profit for quarter - $66.5mil
o Op income $106.3mil, op margin 21.3%
o ROIC 32.0%
o LF 87.5% up 1.8%
o CASM ex fuel 5.9 cents decrease 1% yoy.
o RASM 12.56 up 4.6%
o Seeing strong demand environment. Sept. might be a tougher yoy due arrival of several new a/c just as demand dips.
o Average ticket revenue $84.75, non-ticket revenue $55.15 per pax - looking to go beyond $60'ish range
o New software helping with rigorous approach to revenue managing seat inventory
o Seeing higher volume of passengers selecting to prepurchase extras - like seat assignments.
o Technology on the way to more dynamic price extras such as bags. Tie to demand as flat pricing cant fit all situations.
o Recently upped bag fees - timed to summer related demand.
o Continue to be agnostic when it comes to routes, will only deploy planes where they make biggest returns.
o Creative Spirit 101 campaign meant to educate travelers about how Spirit works seems to be well received
o Received 1 A320 in Qtr. Fleet now at 57. 8 more A320s arriving back end of year
o Fleet utilization 12.8hrs, goal 13.0, push schedule to end around 1am
o Very bullish about our growth and ability to grown 10,20 or 30% for many years to come.
o Business model = provides the lowest fares coupled with high consumer choice and high returns for our shareholders.
o $567 million in unrestricted cash, ZERO debt.

=
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mercure1
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:21 pm

Pretty amazing. Their cost keeps declining, while revenue grows. Margins get better and better.

On the macro scale they definitely have the the market in their favor.
According to IATA under 6% of domestic US traffic in the US is business, rest 94% is leisure related. Thats hundreds of millions of potential clients for Spirit.
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lpdal
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

Net profit $66.5mil up from $45.8 in 2013 - a net margin of 21.3%

Great for my hometown airline! FLL is very gracious for you, NK. You keep all the other airlines' fares in check. 
Thanks for the great experience on FLL-MCO-FLL in February: Spirit Airlines New First Class FLL-MCO-FLL (Pics) (by LPDAL Feb 17 2014 in Trip Reports)

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Bobloblaw
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 5):

I've noticed service degradation happens during recessions. Wait for the next recession.
 
lpdal
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:30 am

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3908/14780090424_64a645b652_c.jpg

NK Terminal tonight at 11...looks like they're doing great.   

-LPDAL
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LAXintl
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
Their cost keeps declining, while revenue grows. Margins get better and better.

Yes pretty amazing.

Ben Baldanza did mention this would occur.
NK seat cost would essentially either be flat or even down as revenue continues increased, creating ever larger margins.

I recall him also saying a year or so ago, the CASM gap between NK and the majors would continue to grow.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
On the macro scale they definitely have the the market in their favor.
According to IATA under 6% of domestic US traffic in the US is business, rest 94% is leisure related. Thats hundreds of millions of potential clients for Spirit.

  

While the majors are all killing each other for the 6% slice, NK plays its game with focus on the 94%.
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commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
While the majors are all killing each other for the 6% slice, NK plays its game with focus on the 94%.

I don't think it's that simplistic. 94% of U.S. domestic travel may be leisure, but 94% is not "Spirit-style" leisure. The "big four" cater to (and are "killing each other for") some segment of that 94% that is inaccessible to Spirit because of its product offering and schedule, and the reverse is also true.

[Edited 2014-07-30 07:54:41]
 
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william
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:02 pm

Zero debt, over 500 mill in the bank and over 20% return on revenues, its amazing. Congrats Spirit. Impressive.........Still will not fly them
 
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mercure1
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
I don't think it's that simplistic. 94% of U.S. domestic travel may be leisure, but 94% is not "Spirit-style" leisure. The "big four" cater to (and are "killing each other for") some segment of that 94% that is inaccessible to Spirit because of its product offering and schedule, and the reverse is also true.

The attitude of the major airlines is that the economy client is secondary.
Yes they need them, as otherwise they would be out business, but the slice of the pie the airlines really want is that 6% that they drool over. Economy client is essentially a necessary evil.

NK does not need to worry about that. They play their game to that 94%, a much larger potential market. Indeed there will be portion of 94% that are nvever attracted by NK, but they do have the market size and odds in their favor.
Also remember global leisure travel grows much faster than business travel, another good omen for the LCCs.

So put this to numbers - according to IATA over 700mil domestic flights taken on US airlines in 2013.
At 6% that represents 42mil business trips, and 658mil leisure trips --- Spirit barely chipped away and carried 2% of that 658mil 2013. So tons of space to grow
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PITrules
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:27 pm

And reading these boards a few years ago one would have thought the pilots would bankrupt the company for pursuing (all the way to strike) and achieving the fair and equitable contract they earned. Funny how that turned out not to be the case   
FLYi
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:28 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 14):
The attitude of the major airlines is that the economy client is secondary.
Yes they need them, as otherwise they would be out business, but the slice of the pie the airlines really want is that 6% that they drool over. Economy client is essentially a necessary evil.

It's true that, on a margin basis, the "big four" are more focused on business travelers - either sitting in First or in Coach. That is definitely their primary focus - no question. But let's not kid ourselves - there's a reason that outside of a very few exceptions, most domestic flights in the U.S. have no more than 10-15% of their seats in a premium cabin. The network airlines know the score - they clearly fully understand, and have for decades - that up front is a margin play while the back is a volume play. And they absolutely cater to both.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 14):
NK does not need to worry about that. They play their game to that 94%, a much larger potential market.

I disagree. Spirit is not "playing their gate" to the 94% - there is no way Spirit can cater to anywhere close to that percentage of that market, for several reasons.

First, some not-insignificant portion of that 94% is originating in, and/or destined for, small markets where Spirit doesn't fly and likely won't. Second, some not-insignificant portion of that market, while leisure, still requires some level of schedule flexibility, so Spirit's scheduling may well not be acceptable. And finally, some definitely-not-insignificant portion of that market, while leisure, simply will not accept Spirit's product and service offering.

94% of the U.S. market does not want to pay extra for everything and have a choice of typically just 1-2 flights per day, generally only between large cities. I'm not disputing for a second that such a market exists, nor that it's large - Spirit's results certainly attest to the size of this market, without any question. But it is highly simplistic to simply say that Spirit caters to 94% of the U.S. market while the "big four" don't - that is simply not true. Again - there is some portion of that 94% that are so price-conscious and whose demand is so price-elastic that Spirit is among their only choices, but there is also some portion of that 94% for whom Spirit is never even a consideration for some of the reasons already mentioned.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I disagree. Spirit is not "playing their gate" to the 94% - there is no way Spirit can cater to anywhere close to that percentage of that market, for several reasons.

First, some not-insignificant portion of that 94% is originating in, and/or destined for, small markets where Spirit doesn't fly and likely won't. Second, some not-insignificant portion of that market, while leisure, still requires some level of schedule flexibility, so Spirit's scheduling may well not be acceptable. And finally, some definitely-not-insignificant portion of that market, while leisure, simply will not accept Spirit's product and service offering.

94% of the U.S. market does not want to pay extra for everything and have a choice of typically just 1-2 flights per day, generally only between large cities. I'm not disputing for a second that such a market exists, nor that it's large - Spirit's results certainly attest to the size of this market, without any question. But it is highly simplistic to simply say that Spirit caters to 94% of the U.S. market while the "big four" don't - that is simply not true. Again - there is some portion of that 94% that are so price-conscious and whose demand is so price-elastic that Spirit is among their only choices, but there is also some portion of that 94% for whom Spirit is never even a consideration for some of the reasons already mentioned.


Indeed majors have to play the 94% game as otherwise their models don't work, but a great deal of their effort is focused on satisfying and capturing that 6%. The 94% is like Mercure1 said almost a necessary evil for them. These majors however need to work very hard to get a decent slice of that 6% to remain above water.

Spirit and LCCs however sit in a sweet spot. They do have mega 94% market of the pie in front of them, and only need capture a thin slice of that and are sitting happy. NK boarded barely 12mil people in 2013, thats only 2% of that US pie.

I agree with Ben Baldanza that growth of 10, 20 or 30% should be sustainable for a long time as even capturing 3 or 4% of the US market will take NK a long time .

As all industry guidance also points to, the 94% will continue to grow as more and more people travel for their own pleasure and as obviously markets are stimulated with low fares.
But there is no such rosy forecast that that 6% will grow, if anything it might decreases as companies and self employed downgrade their travel choices. This certainly is happening inside Europe as IAG recently warned, and carriers like LH are feeling in their home markets.

If the majors do find a flat 6% market eventually, growth in the 94% does occur they will experience yield compression, which will dig straight into their profitability. For the LCC like NK this does not matter, and actually good as that 94% keeps getting bigger and bigger.
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par13del
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
According to IATA under 6% of domestic US traffic in the US is business, rest 94% is leisure related. Thats hundreds of millions of potential clients for Spirit.

So let me put this in perspective of cabbotage that the EU and its carriers is looking for and fighting for, they are interested in the 6% or the 94%? I'm thinking the 6%.
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Indeed majors have to play the 94% game as otherwise their models don't work, but a great deal of their effort is focused on satisfying and capturing that 6%. The 94% is like Mercure1 said almost a necessary evil for them. These majors however need to work very hard to get a decent slice of that 6% to remain above water.

Spirit and LCCs however sit in a sweet spot. They do have mega 94% market of the pie in front of them, and only need capture a thin slice of that and are sitting happy. NK boarded barely 12mil people in 2013, thats only 2% of that US pie.

I agree with Ben Baldanza that growth of 10, 20 or 30% should be sustainable for a long time as even capturing 3 or 4% of the US market will take NK a long time .

As all industry guidance also points to, the 94% will continue to grow as more and more people travel for their own pleasure and as obviously markets are stimulated with low fares.
But there is no such rosy forecast that that 6% will grow, if anything it might decreases as companies and self employed downgrade their travel choices. This certainly is happening inside Europe as IAG recently warned, and carriers like LH are feeling in their home markets.

If the majors do find a flat 6% market eventually, growth in the 94% does occur they will experience yield compression, which will dig straight into their profitability. For the LCC like NK this does not matter, and actually good as that 94% keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Okay, but again, the big four absolutely do cater to that 94% - they just cater to a different part of it than Spirit.

They do focus disproportionately on the 6%, but again, the vast majority of the seats AA, Delta, Southwest and United fly around are in ... Coach. So I struggle with what the big difference is from a product/service offering perspective. From a cost structure perspective, those airlines are certainly optimized for a different mix of the 6-vs-94 than Spirit's, but then, again, Spirit's cost structure also produces a product/service offering that is incompatible with the desires of a very large segment of that 94%.

So it's a trade off. I continue to believe there is plenty of room for all of them - AA, Delta and United with business models optimized a bit more skewed towards the top 6%, Southwest a bit less skewed towards the 6%, and Spirit more skewed towards the 94%.
 
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par13del
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
So it's a trade off. I continue to believe there is plenty of room for all of them - AA, Delta and United with business models optimized a bit more skewed towards the top 6%, Southwest a bit less skewed towards the 6%, and Spirit more skewed towards the 94%.

If we look at the margins would that point towards which segment is financially easier / cheaper for greater returns?
A big portion of the mainline carriers is their obligations for international travel, it does "force" some of their options towards the 6%.
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 20):
If we look at the margins would that point towards which segment is financially easier / cheaper for greater returns?

No question. If you optimize for only a single particular segment of the market - as Spirit does - then you absolutely have far greater opportunities for higher returns because you can jettison any piece of your business model not fully aligned with that one, single, narrow customer base. But that doesn't mean it's the only model out there - because I think it is beyond dispute that the Spirit model alone would not work for the entire U.S. If it did, the U.S. would not only lose most of its international connectivity, but also service to virtually any small town in the country. There's no question the Spirit business model is a very sound one, nor that it caters to a growing potential market. But the Spirit model will never - never - be able to satisfy that entire 94% of the market, let alone the 100%.

Economic theory would say that, over the long-term, if the "Spirit model" generates returns so grossly in excess of that of the "big four" model, then consolidation will lead to progressively fewer and fewer "big four" model competitors until those carriers, too, can deliver returns to shareholders equivalent to that of Spirit (or other potential investment opportunities).
 
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mercure1
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
So it's a trade off. I continue to believe there is plenty of room for all of them - AA, Delta and United with business models optimized a bit more skewed towards the top 6%, Southwest a bit less skewed towards the 6%, and Spirit more skewed towards the 94%.

What happens when the 6% pie stalls, or shrinks(like Europe). Legacy carriers are overly reliant on 6% for their monies.

Spirit, Ryanair, Air Asia, etc sit pretty as they have no such concerns. Their potential client pie continues to grow.

LCC demand peak is still ahead, legacys pie peak might be in rear-view mirror.
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william
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:48 pm

How quickly many on this board dismiss the financial results from the Big four just days ago. Hint, they are not hurting and are definitely keeping an eye on Spirit.
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 22):
What happens when the 6% pie stalls

Then airlines adapt. They've done it before, they'll do it again. But until then, there is a vast segment of the market - far larger than 6% - for which Spirit is a complete non-entity. It's network, pricing structure and product and service offering is entirely incompatible with the value and cost drivers for this customer set. And so for this very large segment of the market, AA, Delta, Southwest and United - to say nothing of Alaska, Virgin, etc. - are there to cater to them. In 20 years, if the market shifts dramatically, then some of those airlines may merge, liquidate or adapt to the Spirit model.

But at least in my opinion, I do not need that happening. I believe there is some practical upper bound on the portion of the U.S. domestic market that Spirit's present business model can cater to. I don't know what that upper bound is, but I do know that it is far higher than the overall share of the market Spirit has now, and that it nonetheless exists. And it may well be that Spirit reaches that upper bound first, and is the one that has to adapt. It wouldn't be the first time. Southwest, too, had an utterly revolutionary business model for the domestic U.S. business market in 1971 and milked that business model for all it was worth, growing to become the nation's largest domestic carrier. But that business model ran its course and reached its practical upper bound, and now we've seen in the last decade that Southwest has dramatically transformed its business model as a result.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 22):
Legacy carriers are overly reliant on 6% for their monies.

Yes and no. That 6% likely represents, in general, far higher margins. But again - I still don't understand how people keep making this point when the average U.S. domestic aircraft likely only has been 5-15% of its seats set aside for First Class. This isn't like 1960 when new 707s were delivered with half the cabin as First Class. It's not news to AA, Delta, Southwest and United that leisure travel is the bulk of market demand!

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 22):
Spirit, Ryanair, Air Asia, etc sit pretty as they have no such concerns.

We'll see. Again, I have my doubts, personally.

Quoting william (Reply 23):
How quickly many on this board dismiss the financial results from the Big four just days ago. Hint, they are not hurting and are definitely keeping an eye on Spirit.

  

I agree. The nation's four largest carriers just had what I believe was their single most profitable quarter, as an industry sector, in history. Clearly they aren't doing that badly. Again - they certainly aren't posting margins, either individually or as a group, anywhere near Spirit. But again, Spirit cannot serve the whole market, and never will be able to. So it is what it is. Again - there's plenty of room for all of them.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting william (Reply 13):
Zero debt, over 500 mill in the bank and over 20% return on revenues, its amazing. Congrats Spirit. Impressive.........Still will not fly them

Im just curious, when it comes to NK, why do some a.netters feel the need to say this?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
lpdal
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:47 pm

I'm hoping NK will get a large piece of the pie of the new T4 at FLL, their current hub is too tight to be placed only in Concourse F. With the new expansion, I'd hope that NK introduces some new routes to FLL.

Also, I'm glad for NK, WN, FL, G4, F9, and B6. They help keep the legacies' prices in check, at least at FLL.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):

Im just curious, when it comes to NK, why do some a.netters feel the need to say this?

Because some people feel that they are "above" flying NK or any other ULCC, which is outrageous and ridiculous. I don't think NK/G4/F9 care anyway, they're already printing money as someone said before.

And I'd also like to remind everyone here that legacy airline prices are kept down by the presence of LCCs and especially ULCCs like NK at FLL and DTW. Without low cost carriers, legacy carriers would have had an oligopoly on the domestic US market.

-LPDAL  
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
PI4EVER
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:44 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 26):

I agree NK has a profitable business plan and provide a "niche" market for price sensitive consumers. Highly profitable and most hated in the same comparison. I choose not to fly them because I perceive their service to be of a lower value overall than on any other airline. Therefore, your statement that I may feel NK is "above" me and therefore I am ridiculous and outrageous (whatever that means) is rather immature on the part of someone who spends a great deal of $ jetsettling around on First Class day trips who "loved" NK's pseudo Business Class "Big Seat" service on a 30 minute flight from FLL to MCO. I won't fly them because I find better value on an airline or airlines I have flown previously. Here's my example. I am flying TPA-PHL next month on WN. My ticket cost $119 and I paid an additional $12.50 for Early Bird Check-In. Total paid $156.50. My ticket is changeable for a future flight credit should I cancel. My carry-on bag in the bin is free. No checked bag. Beverage is free unless I opt for a $5 beer or wine....not likely however at 10AM in the morning. In comparison, NK from TPA-ACY for a one-way flight, with a carry-on bag fee and a $10 seat selection fee to closely match WN's Early Bird the total fare is $167.09. I would not purchase the $9 Fare Club Membership for $69.95 because there was no $9 fare on my travel date and the "fare club" price was only $14 cheaper. Would you give away $55 for nothing if you don't know when you're flying NK again in a year? The NK flight is nonstop on the same day, in the afternoon about 4 hours later than WN. F9 from TPA-ILG, on a nonstop flight at a comparable time in the morning priced at $282.07 as the cheapest fare, with additional $ required to purchase a seat selection if I chose to. NK and F9 do not provide me the option to rebook and reuse my ticket value, with no penalty, for a future flight. You do lose the $12.50 Early Bird fee if you cancel. So in the end, I'll likely get an A boarding #, a seat in a 737-700 to my liking, a window or an aisle somewhere, my bag in the overhead bin because I'm visiting family for 2 weeks and need a few items and a "free" cup of coffee that can be argued is part of my $156.50 fare but no additional charge none the less. So what part of "outrageous" and "ridiculous" was my decision to fly WN? I feel I made a wise decision to vote with my wallet for WN. I have no incentive to fly NK and certainly not F9, and just in case you want to really compare, the fare on DL via ATL was $159 and on US nonstop $169. I did not price or consider G4, which I think is a fine operation and a unique business model I respect, because their closest service to Harrisburg PA is not convenient to commute on to Philly. It would be like flying to MCO to get to Fort Lauderdale so not an option to family I count on for airport pick-up. So that's the ridiculous reason I chose WN and will outrageously continue to do so.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
Continental
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:53 pm

Right on, NK! Used to hate them until I realized how much $$ I was saving by flying them. In fact, I enjoy their flights (as long as they're not to LAS) because the service cart is only in the aisles for a few minutes and I find their crew to be rather kind (small n, yes, but still).
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:15 pm

NK is great if you book waaaaaaay in advance, don't carry any luggage, and are willing to put up with subpar service. I personally have never been attracted to NK b/c I don't like the feeling of being nickeled and dimed. Besides, whenever I checked NK prices, I have always been able to find a better fare, with more time options. To each his own I guess.
 
lpdal
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 27):

Whoa, huge rant there man. I have no problem with airlines anyone chooses to fly. I'm just grateful that the presence of ULCC/LCCs lowers the cost of nearby carriers. Spirit has a place in FLL and it shows.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 27):
Therefore, your statement that I may feel NK is "above" me and therefore I am ridiculous and outrageous (whatever that means) is rather immature on the part of someone who spends a great deal of $ jetsettling around on First Class day trips who "loved" NK's pseudo Business Class "Big Seat" service on a 30 minute flight from FLL to MCO.

Each of my daytrips has a purpose. What is wrong with buying revenue F tickets?

Quote:
who "loved" NK's pseudo Business Class "Big Seat" service on a 30 minute flight from FLL to MCO.

I honestly didn't have any qualms about Big Front Seat or the service. It was quite pleasant, actually.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 27):
So what part of "outrageous" and "ridiculous" was my decision to fly WN? I feel I made a wise decision to vote with my wallet for WN. I have no incentive to fly NK and certainly not F9, and just in case you want to really compare, the fare on DL via ATL was $159 and on US nonstop $169. I did not price or consider G4, which I think is a fine operation and a unique business model I respect, because their closest service to Harrisburg PA is not convenient to commute on to Philly. It would be like flying to MCO to get to Fort Lauderdale so not an option to family I count on for airport pick-up. So that's the ridiculous reason I chose WN and will outrageously continue to do so.

Never said anything about flying on WN. Actually I have a trip report posted about them back in February: Fahf 2: Southwest Business Class R/T FLL-TPA-FLL (by LPDAL Feb 10 2014 in Trip Reports)

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
PI4EVER
Posts: 818
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 30):

You specifically said, and I quote "because some people feel they are above NK or any ULCC which is outrageous and ridiculous." WN is not considered an ULCC but to illustrate my point they were a better value for my $ in comparison to NK and F9, and therefore there was no incentive to fly NK or F9. You missed the point and comparison of fare and service in my post completely. And I am not convinced that legacy airlines worry much about NK and F9, but do factor in what WN and B6 do so don't be so convinced that NK is driving the market dynamics in FLL.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 31):
You specifically said, and I quote "because some people feel they are above NK or any ULCC which is outrageous and ridiculous."

Well....if you're going to get picky, he said SOME, not all.....so he wasn't talking about you....so let it go.

He was responding to my question, which was why do a.netters feel they HAVE to say they wouldn't fly them. I mean, if we were talking about United, there aren't hoards of people shouting "WELL, I'D NEEEEEEEEEEVER FLY THEM!!!!!"

I've only seen one person say they wouldn't fly Malaysia Airlines.

But Spirit, you cant keep them quiet.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 31):
WN is not considered an ULCC

But I was talking only about ULCCs.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 31):
You missed the point and comparison of fare and service in my post completely.

Because I didn't want to read a flamboyant rant about flying WN over NK, and again we're obviously talking about different things.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 31):
And I am not convinced that legacy airlines worry much about NK and F9

NK, F9, and G4 pose threats to US/AA/DL/UA's potential customer amount. I wouldn't say load factors are 100% on all legacies are business travellers.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 31):
don't be so convinced that NK is driving the market dynamics in FLL.

Considering that they have 40+ destinations and consider the airport to be one of their hubs, they control a large portion of FLL enplanements. And yes, the presence of NK, G4, and F9 definitely affects legacy ticket prices here. Especially DL who is now facing competition from G4 to CVG.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 32):

Well....if you're going to get picky, he said SOME, not all.....so he wasn't talking about you....so let it go.

I agree. PI4EVER, chill out. No one is offended because you fly WN. And like 727Lover said, "some" is not a synonym of "you". If I was replying to you directly, I would have quoted your post.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5365
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):


I predict every or near every airline's domestic coach product will be like Spirit's in 10 years.

According to this forum AA's 319's are darn close already...I hope you're wrong, BUT.......
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:32 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
I don't think it's that simplistic. 94% of U.S. domestic travel may be leisure, but 94% is not "Spirit-style" leisure. The "big four" cater to (and are "killing each other for") some segment of that 94% that is inaccessible to Spirit because of its product offering and schedule, and the reverse is also true.

Let's not fool ourselves here. Among the leisure market, NK's biggest limiting factors are its small network and lack of frequency. But NK is a strong viable option among leisure travelers in the markets it serves.

A combination of price, schedule and loyalty program drive the leisure market. Schedule is very subjective; many leisure travelers simply will not consider connections, so while AA may offer very competitive options in a market like DTW-LAX -- at times one prefers -- it will not be an option for them. And while many people prefer a finite time, others will trade a preferred option for a less preferable one if the savings are significant. FF are less influential; some research I've seen has indicted it's even less influential among Millennials, who believe they're more gimmicky than rewarding.

Let's clense the a.net image of NK travelers as trailer trash, with Beverly Hillbillies music playing as they board the plane with their garbage bags dubbing as suitcases. Air transportation has gotten expensive -- really expensive -- and NK's fares (for the most part) are nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, there's many casual travelers blindsided by NK's nickel-and-diming. Yes, there's a portion of the traveling public who won't fly NK. But among those not paying with house money, it's not as large as what you probably think. Hence the reason that NK ultimately impacts fares in many of the new routes it serves... competing airlines, including AA at DFW, typically lower their pricing for the flights surrounding NK's... but not completely matches it because of NK's extra fees... which itself is an indication that NK's consumers are probably more educated than what you think.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 975
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:20 pm

I've had 2 very different experiences with Spirit. The first time a while back was on an MD80 and as I recall the legroom was no different than other airlines. The second one a round trip on an A320 a couple of years ago was a miserable experience. I felt like a sardine and it was 2 of the worst flights of my life. If I could have changed my return flight to FLL to another airline for a reasonable price I would have. And I'm only 5' 6" tall. I can only imagine how bad it would be if I was taller. I don't expect first class room in economy but, c'mon man!

I understand the value of price, but I will do everything I can to avoid this, ahem, "airline."

If you can deal with the cattle car set up, more power to you. But flying these days is stressful enough without feeling like a sardine when I'm on the plane. However, given Spirit's continued success, it's obvious a lot of people don't agree with me. To each their own, I guess.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Among the leisure market, NK's biggest limiting factors are its small network and lack of frequency.

... and it's product and service offering, which a very big part of the traveling public finds unacceptable.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
But NK is a strong viable option among leisure travelers in the markets it serves.

Couldn't agree more. In "the markets it serves" - very high-density routes between large cities where there is a very sizable pool of latent, highly-elastic, price-conscious demand that can be stimulated with low base fares - Spirit is absolutely a "strong viable option." The problem is that this type of market does not constitute 94% of the traveling public.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Schedule is very subjective; many leisure travelers simply will not consider connections, so while AA may offer very competitive options in a market like DTW-LAX -- at times one prefers -- it will not be an option for them.

Right. And "service" and "product" are also "very subjective" and here, too, "many leisure travelers simply will not consider" what Spirit has to offer. So while "Spirit" may "offer very competitive" fares, "it will not be an option" for a segment of the traveling public.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Let's clense the a.net image of NK travelers as trailer trash, with Beverly Hillbillies music playing as they board the plane with their garbage bags dubbing as suitcases.

I never said or implied that. But "let's not fool ourselves" as to the market Spirit caters to - the most price-conscious segment of the market. That is reality. And that segment is not 94% of domestic U.S. air passengers today. That was the only point I have made - repeatedly.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Air transportation has gotten expensive -- really expensive

Not really. But historical standards, it's still a remarkable bargain. People complain about how expensive it's gotten because (a) most people don't really understand and/or want to factor in inflation, and (b) people in general just want to pay less for everything.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Yes, there's a portion of the traveling public who won't fly NK. But among those not paying with house money, it's not as large as what you probably think.

Yeah, I think it is as large as I probably think. Again - I'm not saying there isn't a massive pool of demand out there from people who are very happy with the value-price-cost equation that Spirit delivers. There absolutely is. But there is also a massive pool of demand out there from people who find Spirit's offering unacceptable.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Hence the reason that NK ultimately impacts fares in many of the new routes it serves... competing airlines, including AA at DFW, typically lower their pricing for the flights surrounding NK's

Not in my experience. I price airfare, and buy tickets, for personal leisure travel out of DFW very often. I don't typically see AA doing much if any discounting vis a vis Spirit. Typically, AA's fares out of DFW on routes directly competing with Spirit are substantially (sometimes 2-3 times) Spirit's fare. As Spirit itself has said before, Spirit simply caters to a generally different market segment than AA (and other network carriers), and therefore they coexist fairly well.

[Edited 2014-07-31 12:11:27]
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 7767
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
NK's biggest limiting factors are its small network and lack of frequency

Checkmark. There is always a market for the lowest price. Always. If they can get people where they want to go then they will flock to Spirit.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
and it's product and service offering, which a very big part of the traveling public finds unacceptable

There is a big difference between "finds unacceptable" and "actively avoids at all costs". Ask Ryanair.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:02 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
... and it's product and service offering, which a very big part of the traveling public finds unacceptable.

Unacceptable to who? I think you're forgetting that (for the average person) AA charges for checked baggage, does not offer meals (but offers some perishable food with extended shelf-life for purchase), has no IFE (or in-seat power) on many long flights, offers tight seat pitch and sometimes withholds so many seats assignments for an upcharge that persons buying their ticket within a 30-day window or so will have no other choice if they desire to sit together. Yes, NK takes a step further but AA was the airline that just 15 years ago touted its Bistro Bags and MRTC concept. Contrary to what you and many others within these forums believe, if people were willing to pay for that service, it'd still exist.

So yes, while NK gets many consumer complaints... it continues to grow at a strong pace, and really hasn't had to drop too many routes despite the experimental nature of some. Reality is that people may complain about NK... but if they can save a few dollars, they'll continue to fly the,

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Right. And "service" and "product" are also "very subjective" and here, too, "many leisure travelers simply will not consider" what Spirit has to offer. So while "Spirit" may "offer very competitive" fares, "it will not be an option" for a segment of the traveling public.

Sure there's people who won't fly NK, for various reasons. But given the airline's success in the current fare environment, obviously they're -- by far -- in the minority.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Couldn't agree more. In "the markets it serves" - very high-density routes between large cities where there is a very sizable pool of latent, highly-elastic, price-conscious demand that can be stimulated with low base fares - Spirit is absolutely a "strong viable option." The problem is that this type of market does not constitute 94% of the traveling public.

You're spinning the point that LAXIntl and myself were making... but nonetheless, I agree, NK isn't going to fly say FSD-DIK. But again, that's just spinning the point.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
I never said or implied that. But "let's not fool ourselves" as to the market Spirit caters to - the most price-conscious segment of the market. That is reality. And that segment is not 94% of domestic U.S. air passengers today. That was the only point I have made - repeatedly.

The problem commavia is that you can't prove that assertion (because no hard reliable data exists). Yet NK continues to grow... and legacy carriers like DL (and likely soon AA) continue to decrease seat pitch, eliminate rest rooms, etc.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Not really. But historical standards, it's still a remarkable bargain. People complain about how expensive it's gotten because (a) most people don't really understand and/or want to factor in inflation, and (b) people in general just want to pay less for everything.

Huge a.net misnomer. Airlines cram more seats, offer less service, de facto collude to control capacity to drive up fares, have less labor costs (adjusted for inflation)... was air transportation undervalued several years ago when transcontinental fares were less than $100? Absolutely. But "historical cost" is a weak argument here because it's a completely different product today, much more of a commodity. Gone are the days of flying planes half-full.

Heck, all the legacy carriers now account for FF tickets, positive space, etc. as liabilities because planes are so full. Was not true in the 1980s.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Yeah, I think it is as large as I probably think. Again - I'm not saying there isn't a massive pool of demand out there from people who are very happy with the value-price-cost equation that Spirit delivers. There absolutely is. But there is also a massive pool of demand out there from people who find Spirit's offering unacceptable.

Yeah, but they continue to fly NK. I'm no NK fan, but I've flown them when there was a significant savings involved.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Not in my experience. I price airfare, and buy tickets, for personal leisure travel out of DFW very often. I don't typically see AA doing much if any discounting vis a vis Spirit. Typically, AA's fares out of DFW on routes directly competing with Spirit are substantially (sometimes 2-3 times) Spirit's fare. As Spirit itself has said before, Spirit simply caters to a generally different market segment than AA (and other network carriers), and therefore they coexist fairly well.

But AA definitely cuts its prices on many routes it directly competes with NK. I can get an advanced purchase ticket from DTW-DFW on AA for about $250-280 but only on the flights near NK's. Even a couple weeks ago AA wanted about $1200 for a last-minute ticket, but flights near NK's were pricing for about $500 -- or about the cost a ticket from DTW-DFW use to sell for during the "golden age" of cheap airline travel...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:23 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Unacceptable to who? I think you're forgetting that (for the average person) AA charges for checked baggage, does not offer meals (but offers some perishable food with extended shelf-life for purchase), has no IFE (or in-seat power) on many long flights, offers tight seat pitch and sometimes withholds so many seats assignments for an upcharge that persons buying their ticket within a 30-day window or so will have no other choice if they desire to sit together. Yes, NK takes a step further but AA was the airline that just 15 years ago touted its Bistro Bags and MRTC concept. Contrary to what you and many others within these forums believe, if people were willing to pay for that service, it'd still exist

Unacceptable to me! I buy a lot of domestic leisure tickets, and also arrange and book a lot of such tickets for others. I don't fly Spirit, and neither do the people I book travel for. So clearly some of us exist. I'm not saying I'm representative of all or even most, but what I am saying - yet again - is that whether some want to accept it, there absolutely is a segment of this 94% who simply will not fly Spirit, even when given the choice. I'm in this segment.

As to all your other points - another thing to remember is that many of the negative aspects of the legacies that you describe above do not apply to a not-insignificant portion of the domestic leisure traveling public. If you have status with one of the "big four," you largely bypass all those extra charges and inconveniences. And there are a lot of people - again, like me - who fly a network carrier for business and thus have status which makes me loyal to a network carrier for leisure, too. This is yet another segment of that 94% who may well not choose Spirit, even if given the choice.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
But given the airline's success in the current fare environment, obviously they're -- by far -- in the minority.

Perhaps I'm using a different definition of "minority." Spirit today accounts for a relatively tiny portion of the domestic air market - the vast majority of domestic travelers (business and leisure) choose to fly on an airline other than Spirit, so clearly they aren't in the minority. I'm not saying these percentages will always look this way, but clearly at the moment more than 9 out of every 10 people who fly either can't or won't fly Spirit because they don't like the service, they don't like the schedule, Spirit's network and business model can't support service to their small town, or some other reason.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
You're spinning the point that LAXIntl and myself were making... but nonetheless, I agree, NK isn't going to fly say FSD-DIK. But again, that's just spinning the point.

No spinning - just yet again reinforcing my point with reality. Some portion of that 94% come from small towns that cannot ever support Spirit's business model (at least in its present form) and therefore are largely captive to the only airline business model that thus far has proven capable of connecting small towns to broader air transportation networks, and that's the network airline hub and spoke business model. Again - this may well change in the future, but for now this is yet another segment of that 94% inaccessible to Spirit.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
The problem commavia is that you can't prove that assertion (because no hard reliable data exists).

And you can't disprove it! Yikes. All I said was that this 94% of the market is divisible into some portion that is not accessible to Spirit, just like in reverse there is some portion inaccessible to the network carriers. This is such a intuitively obvious fact that I find it stunning anyone is even trying to argue it. But if the basis for disputing that some line exists separating off the portion of that 94% inaccessible to Spirit is the fact that I can't tell you exactly where that line is, that's laughable. Just because I don't know exactly where that line is doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does, whether some want to believe it or not.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Yet NK continues to grow... and legacy carriers like DL (and likely soon AA) continue to decrease seat pitch, eliminate rest rooms, etc.

Good for Spirit. Nobody ever said they won't continue to grow - they stimulate markets and capture the most price-elastic demand in big, busy markets - so of course they have plenty of room to grow. Still doesn't change the fact that they are not able to cater to 94% of the market.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Huge a.net misnomer. Airlines cram more seats, offer less service, de facto collude to control capacity to drive up fares, have less labor costs (adjusted for inflation)... was air transportation undervalued several years ago when transcontinental fares were less than $100? Absolutely. But "historical cost" is a weak argument here because it's a completely different product today, much more of a commodity. Gone are the days of flying planes half-full.

No, not a misnomer - just reality. Adjusted for inflation and distance, air travel is still a remarkable bargain compared to the past. Fares have risen in recent years, true, but that's because airlines finally have an industry structure where they can actually charge customers what it costs to operate. Air travelers for too long got too good a deal at the expense of the other stakeholders in the air transportation system - including employees and investors. Now, today, there are multiple competitors at multiple price points - from Spirit to the network carriers and all in between, offering all types of products and services to all types of customers with varying value sets - andirons think it's a great time to fly.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Heck, all the legacy carriers now account for FF tickets, positive space, etc. as liabilities because planes are so full. Was not true in the 1980s.

Uh ... no. Airlines account for earned but not redeemed frequent flyer miles, and tickets purchased but not yet flown, as a liability because ... they are a liability. This is accounting 101 - these liabilities are what would be generally called "unearned revenue" in an accounting textbook. It has absolutely nothing to do with load factors and has been that way since the 1980s and before.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
But AA definitely cuts its prices on many routes it directly competes with NK. I can get an advanced purchase ticket from DTW-DFW on AA for about $250-280 but only on the flights near NK's. Even a couple weeks ago AA wanted about $1200 for a last-minute ticket, but flights near NK's were pricing for about $500 -- or about the cost a ticket from DTW-DFW use to sell for during the "golden age" of cheap airline travel...

You have your anecdotal experience and I have mine. Again - I book leisure travel for myself and many others in and out of DFW regularly, and rarely do I see AA matching Spirit much if at all, even at similar times. Far more often what I find is AA pricing out at 2-3x Spirit, and/or Spirit basically ending up right around AA once all the extra charges are added in. And suffice it to say, if AA is within 10-20% of Spirit when all is said and done, nobody I know willingly chooses Spirit. Hopper.com often does Spirit no favors.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23624
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RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:28 pm

Spirit (and other major LCCs like Ryanair) have a huge market advantage with consumers.

Why?
Because they play on price, which is the far most important single element in purchase decision making. LCCs can offer great pricing and turn a profit at it. For majors to get that passenger they must offer similar low fares, often below cost.
Per IATA 2010 study - 'Reputation of Airline / Inflight Service' was actually the lowest selection criteria factor for leisure travelers.

Second these comments about Spirit never being able to access 94% of the market since they don't serve all the small cities, well neither do all the legacy carriers.
Spirit in investor update last year pointed out that they already have access to 80% of US consumers by serving the top 15 metro areas.

Ryanair in a conference I attended in Europe a couple years back made a similar demographic point.
For every 10 new passengers born, 9 will be natural potential clients for Ryanair, while only 1 will be a natural BA customer.
BA must work very hard to convince a few of those 9 others to move over to the BA camp, while Ryanair does not need to do much of anything besides simply show up and offer good price to earn business. In reality Ryanair actually must turn away the bulk of those 9 potential travelers as it has no where near enough seats for them.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mwh787
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:29 am

RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):

Quoting william (Reply 13):
Zero debt, over 500 mill in the bank and over 20% return on revenues, its amazing. Congrats Spirit. Impressive.........Still will not fly them

Im just curious, when it comes to NK, why do some a.netters feel the need to say this?

I say it because I like to fly in a little more comfort. I'm old enough to remember the "good ol days" when you if you wore a sports jacket and slack you were considered under dressed for airline flying. This density of seating will become the norm very soon UGH!

All that said Spirit has a very good business model and I own the stock in my IRA, it has done very well for me.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 38):
There is always a market for the lowest price. Always. If they can get people where they want to go then they will flock to Spirit.


  

Stating the obvious, perhaps, but the belief is that it is not part of the regular civil aviation market - much of it is a market of those who would not otherwise fly. Spirit is not taking share from other airlines, it is creating its own.

William Franke of Indigo, who used to own Spirit, believes that there is a large section of potential travellers who feel "disenfranchised" from flying - until Spirit comes along. Bloomberg elaborates on that:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-growth-spurt-comes-with-big-risks

"Historically, Spirit has drawn customers who do not usually fly, rather than siphon traffic from carriers like American (AAL), Delta (DAL), and United (UAL). Its business works well because the industry's whales have been largely indifferent to Spirit's segment of the low-income leisure market. If Spirit were to grow too much or too quickly, however, a larger rival may choose to respond."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Spirit Post Record Quarter

Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41):
Second these comments about Spirit never being able to access 94% of the market since they don't serve all the small cities, well neither do all the legacy carriers.

I completely agree. In fact, I agree so much that I made this exact same point all the way back in reply 12. Still not sure why it was necessary to argue the obvious for dozens of posts.

Again - there is some portion of that 94% that is inaccessible to Spirit - not just because it's in small cities incompatible with Spirit's business model, but also because of Spirit's schedules, Spirit's product, pricing or some other reason. Likewise, there is some portion inaccessible to the network carriers, largely because of higher operating cost (and thus higher fares).

The bottom line is that the 94% is segmented - really into three groups: those inaccessible to Spirit, those inaccessible to the network carries, and those in the middle that are "fair game" for both to compete for. I still fail to see how this is remotely debatable.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41):
Spirit in investor update last year pointed out that they already have access to 80% of US consumers by serving the top 15 metro areas.

That's not the same thing as what I'm saying. Saying you have "access to" 80% of customers doesn't mean 80% of customers is accessible to you, because again, not everyone will fly Spirit, even if given the choice.

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