BoeingGuy
Posts: 6315
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
The TK 737 had a faulty altimeter made by Boeing.

You might want to correct your facts. Boeing does not make Radio Altimeters. Avionics suppliers do.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
FALLAP dont listen to these negative voices. TK is a very safe airlines, and also IMHO the very best to fly. But this you can judge by yourself.

How does one judge things by themselves? Where are they going to get the information from? When people provide a perspective, its dismissed out of hand.

What are we left with? These inspiring words from the CEO:

"Asked if the accidents and close calls have affected simulator training and the carrier's safety culture, Mr. Kotil responded, "Whatever procedures we were applying those days, yesterday and today, they are the same," he said.

Unlike officials at most U.S. and foreign carriers, who typically highlight the internal changes that follow a high-profile accident, Mr. Kotil took the opposite tack when he was interviewed. "There is no change, there is nothing specific to do," he said, except to routinely review incident data "and continue business as usual.""

(http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703362804576184871138548788)

Or the words of Nuri Sakarya, apparently a TK pilot and employee:

"Nuri Sakarya believes that Turkish Airlines has not learned from an accident in February 2009 where a Turkish Airlines plane crashed while approaching Amsterdam, and nine were killed. One reason was, according to an accident report, that the pilots failed to follow agreed procedures and were poorly trained.

"Therefore, we must expect it to happen again," he says, but stresses that he does not speak on behalf of the company."

http://europenews.dk/en/node/50578

Or the numerous anecdotes listed above.

Its not a very confidence-inspiring approach, is it? Even if TK has improved, it isn't helped by the words of its own CEO. There are numerous Turkish posters and TK-affiliated folk on this website. They don't seem to have any thoughts of this, one way or the other (which adds to the doubt).

On the flip side, there are signs of change. Following the publishing of the Politiken articles, TK decided to retest 2,200 employees in English (that it took an expose to do that ...says a lot)

http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/EC...0/turkish-pilots-to-learn-english/

And TK is hiring foreign pilots even now.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur...pageID=238&nID=61037&NewsCatID=345

I believe they hired quite a few from LH cityline and EK. And I know there was an experienced ex-AC pilot who got media coverage when he joined TK after being forced to retire by AC after turning 60 years old.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
A lot of airlines in Europe, Asia and South America emplpy former military pilots. Their skills are often even better than civilian-only pilots because they have been through emergency situations and they are accustomed to taking quick split-second decisions.

I don't think their skill is an issue. Its their cavalier attitude to checklists and their lack of english (if you cant communicate with your copilot during an emergency...)

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
The Amsterdam crash is only testament to TK excellent maintenance!

How so?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
The different reasons were attributed to the manufacturers. If your plane has a defective cargo door that opens mid-flight, I dont think you can blame the airline or the pilot.

If memory correct, the TK DC-10 crash after takeoff from ORY in 1974 due to the cargo door failure could probably have avoided and 346 lives saved, but TK had not implemented the airworthiness directive related to changes to the cargo door on that aircraft although the TK crash was almost 2 years after the AA DC-10 cargo door close call in June 1972 (AA96).
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 52):
If memory correct, the TK DC-10 crash after takeoff from ORY in 1974 due to the cargo door failure could probably have avoided and 346 lives saved, but TK had not implemented the airworthiness directive related to changes to the cargo door on that aircraft although the TK crash was almost 2 years after the AA DC-10 cargo door close call in June 1972 (AA96).

It's even worse than that. After the AA cargo door incident, the FAA wanted to issue an Emergency Airworthiness Directive. MCD talked them into making it a Service Bulletin. DC-10s on the assembly line would be modified by MDC; the THY bird wasn't even finished yet. The paperwork actually showed the THY DC-10 received the modified aft cargo door, but it hadn't - with fatal results.
 
flyingthe757
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:44 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 38):

Has your good friend reported it to the local aviation authorities, or even TK higher ups? If it's that bad....
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:52 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 51):
Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 49):
The Amsterdam crash is only testament to TK excellent maintenance!

How so?

TK maintenance went out of their way to fix the defective altimeter time and again.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8303
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:52 am

My airline is world's safest apparently...

I'd fly any of them really, as much as I like to poke fun at CI/KE. (I know CI landed at my local airport without final ATC clearance for example) I love flying TK - have mostly flown them longhaul on 77Ws, but I really enjoy their service and I would still fly them any day of the week over AI, PK, Lionair etc.

One shouldn't worry about death (by any means, not just on a plane crash), just worry about not fitting enough in before it is time for you to go.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
northstar80
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:29 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:42 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 38):
Ok, if you wish. First of all, you should know that on the short-haul fleet - on the Boeings in particular - the skipper will be ex. military.

I am normally a very kind person, but when I see and read such things - giving false information to people - I feel a need to be a little harsh.

BS. Not only BS, but double BS. Your entire post is "speculation", no source or whatever other than your "friend". I sense a tendency in your posts to bash TK and it is not a correct way to behave where, the company cant even defend itself. What you are doing is deliberately making up false rumors which can effect the image of the company. I urge you to take a TK flight yourself and tell us any non-safe practice you observe.

Lets look at some facts (thus the false information you are giving to people to deceit them).
- TK does not have a WB vs NB different pilot structure. People start out as an FO in either one of them and switch to the other type when they become a Captain. Generally 5 years. So, if you start as an FO in a NB, then when you become a Captain in WB, then 5 yrs later you go back to being a NB Captain. Vice-versa if you start in WB as an FO. (So, BS on the "I wont fly the A320, B737" posts)

- The majority of the pilots were ex-military in the 90s. Now, the last numbers should be around 5% of the total pilots.

- About 10% of the pilots are non-Turkish citizens. And they are distributed to the entire aircraft family evenly. Foreign pilots and Turkish pilots are treated the same way in terms of seniority or change of a type when required by company rules. There are foreign pilots FO and Captain in both WB and NB. Additionally, most of the foreign pilots (ex US Carriers, EK, BA, Canada, you name it) are in NB fleet.

- TK pilots are required to take and pass the DLR tests - which I assume you would know is a very hard German test Lufthansa pilots also have to pass.

I am not going to come up here and say that TK is the safest airline in the world - and I wont say that they wont have any other incidents. We know incidents happen and in some of them the pilots are faulty. But I am against any type of behavior where misinformation is deliberately given. TK is not a Lufthansa in terms of safety, however I fly them with joy and comfort and safeness around 20 times a year.

Other information;

- I have around 10 personal pilot friends who work for TK. They are one of the most professional and knowledgeable pilots I have ever met. Almost all of the 10 are graduates of top 20 US Colleges - including Embry Riddle, have perfect English and pay extreme attention to their training and sleep schedules. These guys may be a select amount of top pilots, but the ones that I know are represented by this 10.

- TK crash in AMS was due to an equipment failure you can read the report on the accident.

- The interview with the 13 dutch pilots were discussed here on a.net - I cannot find the thread. As far as I remember, they were fired shortly before the "interviews".

Sorry everyone else to come into the thread and defend TK (I dont even work for them), but I had to lay out some facts in order to have a healthy discussion from this point onwards.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7075
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
I do not agree with using hull losses / fatalities because an airline like GOL ends up on the list because of the statistical impact of one event.

Most studies are biased and are selectively presented to serve a client. Apple and Samsung can use same data with different criteria to show they are the best or others are worst.

For a German company JACDEC is really sloppy, very unique as Germans try to achieve perfection, this company continue to thrive on bad data. Every year some sucker publishes this list, gets slapped around and changes headline. Last year Business Insider, this year Yahoo news.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: The World's 10 Most Dangerous Airlines

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
Sorry everyone else to come into the thread and defend TK (I dont even work for them), but I had to lay out some facts in order to have a healthy discussion from this point onwards.

Thank you for coming in with the fact check. We need both sides of the story here. For some reason, the TK folk are quiet. Defend away - this is your/their airline. If this criticism isn't warranted, let us know why.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
- TK crash in AMS was due to an equipment failure you can read the report on the accident.

This tendency to blame the equipment has been flagged as a safety issue in itself. The report was critical of the way the TK pilots handled the situation. TK's own Nuri Sakarya has warned that TK has not learnt the lessons from this occurrence (in part, I suspect, tdue to the reluctance to acknowledge that the pilots were at fault, which does not inspire confidence about safety standards). If airlines keep focusing on blaming equipment, rather than how they can train pilots to handle equipment failure, there is a problem.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
- The interview with the 13 dutch pilots were discussed here on a.net - I cannot find the thread. As far as I remember, they were fired shortly before the "interviews".

Okay. Remove the source from its do those arguments stand on their own merit? Sakarya suggests that they do. The ATC reports on level bursts suggest that they do. What happened in Casablanca? Would any other major airline pilot have tried that landing under those conditions?

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
What you are doing is deliberately making up false rumors which can effect the image of the company.

Rumor s that are being validated by TK employees, including Sakarya. Look at what Kotil himself says about TK not changing how it does things. If it had a stellar record, this would be fine. It doesn't. Recent crashes were caused by pilot errors (missed checklist items, landing in unsafe conditions). Kotil has done more damage to its image in my mind than any if these rumors.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
I urge you to take a TK flight yourself and tell us any non-safe practice you observe.

Pax are rarely privy to what happens in the cockpit.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
- TK does not have a WB vs NB different pilot structure. People start out as an FO in either one of them and switch to the other type when they become a Captain. Generally 5 years. So, if you start as an FO in a NB, then when you become a Captain in WB, then 5 yrs later you go back to being a NB Captain. Vice-versa if you start in WB as an FO. (So, BS on the "I wont fly the A320, B737" posts)

No one is suggesting there is no opportunity for TK pilots to move forward in their careers. One just hopes that the less capable ones are weeded out properly (ie - no favoritism or politics).

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 57):
TK is not a Lufthansa in terms of safety,

Why not? Other airlines from all over the world are as safe as LH. Why isn't TK? And if its not, is it wrong to consider it more dangerous than other airlines?

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