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Flighty
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting texdravid (Reply 46):
am surprised that the term "flyover country" has not been used yet in a perjorative/insulting manner.

These routes "fly over" almost all the Asia-USA demand, which is the problem.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):

AA will probably suck it up and continue the Dallas flying, after all they've been bleeding money on the ORD flights for almost a decade now, they simply don't have much choice if they want to build the market that they long neglected.

Fully share your bleak financial prognosis here. But, new management and new 787s may alter the strategy and the tools available. And, Texas and Latin America and Florida are all growing like stink. Can this all create future profits (if not current ones), I'd call it "plausible" but not a slam dunk. Look at ATL... not much Asia flying when all is said and done. No HKG and little cry for it either.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
The O&D alone would maybe support one or two weekly flights to each of those cities, let alone daily flights on wide-bodies.

True, but you can say that of the vast majority of longhaul routes operated by any U.S. airline - almost none of them could be sustained based on O&D alone.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
The only reason AA flies to Asia from DFW is that it doesn't have strong hubs where a pacific gateway makes sense.

Yes and no.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
They can't make the ORD flights work because UA is much stronger in both Chicago and Asia while LAX is very competitive and does't have the feed to make flights work.

Let's see where things stand in five years.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
How much traffic do you think southern markets generate to Asia ?

A lot. As much as NYC, LAX or SFO? No, of course not. But I have no doubt that the region, cumulatively, generates a plenty of local demand to Asia. "Plenty" enough to support multiple daily widebodies on AA from DFW to Asia? We'll see.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
Markets like BNA-PVG, LIT-HKG and BHM-ICN hardly have any traffic between them, I'd be surprised if they even had 5PEW each. Remember that for the so-called "smaller markets in the eastern and southern US", AA's flight will be competing against DTW, ORD and in some cases LAX and SFO connections.

Rome wasn't built in a day. That's precisely the point I already made. You certainly can't fill a plane from DFW to Asia based solely on O&D, nor from connections from BNA, LIT or BHM, but you add up all those little cities, plus all the connections coming from bigger cities like ATL, AUS, HOU, MCO, MIA, etc. - and that starts getting to be bigger numbers. Now sure, DFW will be competing with other hubs for this traffic, but DFW is very well-positioned to be competitive, particularly as the market continues to grow.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
AA will probably suck it up and continue the Dallas flying, after all they've been bleeding money on the ORD flights for almost a decade now, they simply don't have much choice if they want to build the market that they long neglected.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 50):
Fully share your bleak financial prognosis here.

Perhaps, although it seems quite apparent that AA views these markets as investments, and may well not be judging them - at least now - based merely upon segment profitability, but rather their overall contribution to the network.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 50):
Look at ATL... not much Asia flying when all is said and done. No HKG and little cry for it either.

DFW and ATL are two different markets, with relative strengths and weaknesses to each. There may well be a reason why DFW sees more nonstop flights to Asia than ATL.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting texdravid (Reply 46):

DFW has O&D. It has volume. No amount of east-coast superiority is going to change that.

It's not a volume problem. It's a local O&D and yield problem. From another old 2013 thread, I see these PDEW :

ICN 110
NRT/HND 53
TPE 42
HKG 40
PVG 33
PEK 26

Even with a 210 seat 787-8 to launch DFW-PEK, you're filling 26/210 with local O&D. Now PVG is like 33/240. Add in 50% for "market stimulation from nonstop" and the numbers still aren't that rosy. And that's before you factor in (1) people unwilling to pay the premium pricing on nonstop (limited backtracking offered by hubs at LAX SFO SEA YVR MSP ORD), and (2) people loyal to other alliances.

Add in budget conscious pax who are willing to go the long scenic route (e.g. DFW-DXB/DOH/AUH-HKG) thanks to the capacity glut from ME3 expansion.

This is not "texas pride" or "flyover country condescension" - it's market reality.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 52):
Even with a 210 seat 787-8 to launch DFW-PEK, you're filling 26/210 with local O&D. Now PVG is like 33/240. Add in 50% for "market stimulation from nonstop" and the numbers still aren't that rosy.

But again - all of this focus is on O&D, without taking into accounting O&D from all of the places behind DFW for which DFW has instantly become a very attractive connecting point. I'm not disputing that DFW isn't the largest Asia O&D market in the U.S., but again, there are very few longhaul routes on any U.S. airline from any U.S. gateway that could survive on O&D alone. They pretty much all rely on connections to a certain extent.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 52):
(2) people loyal to other alliances

DFW-originating, I doubt that would be much of a problem. AA has a commanding presence with local longhaul, and business, demand - as is the case with most carriers in their hub cities.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 52):
This is not "texas pride" or "flyover country condescension" - it's market reality.

No, I think there is some "flyover country condescension" - here on A.net, and in general. Having lived in both Texas and New York, I have seen and experienced it first-hand.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
How much traffic do you think southern markets generate to Asia ?

A lot. As much as NYC, LAX or SFO? No, of course not. But I have no doubt that the region, cumulatively, generates a plenty of local demand to Asia. "Plenty" enough to support multiple daily widebodies on AA from DFW to Asia? We'll see.

The southeast/midwest can generate plenty, but the competitive choices are also plenty (IAH ATL DTW ORD, and to a certain degree, JFK EWR IAD MSP).

Asia-Latam is nearly the only exclusive advantage that DFW has over the other routings (assuming you're not heading to GRU).
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 40):
Look at the numbers. One neighborhood, many neighborhoods, dense, spread out...the numbers aren't there compared to ny dc sf la

Here is your first problem, youre comparing DFW to NYC, LA, and SF. Nobody on this thread compared DFW to them except you. You first said, "DFW has little O&D to Asia" which isnt true. Perhaps what you meant to say was "DFW has little O&D to Asia compared to New York, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, and DC" which would be true. Also, get it out of your head that Im somehow proposing that DFW is going to be this huge Asian gateway. My prediction is that DFW can support 4-5 cities in Asia total and maybe 6-7 flights total given the O&D, hub, and location.

The ME3 are different. DFW-India is growing like few others in the US. DFW is the 5th largest immigration spot for Indians in the US after NYC, the Bay, Chicago, and DC. DFW currently has the 6th largest Indian population in the US by metro area, but it will overtake LA in a few years more than likely. DFW-India is growing in business ties few others as well. They flooded here for a reason and the AA hub is only part of it.

DFW is best compared with its peers to Asia which would be like IAH, ATL, DTW, BOS, and PHL. In that grouping, DFW goes toe-to-toe quite nicely in regards to O&D to Asia. Its not the largest of that grouping, but it keeps up just fine.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 48):
The O&D alone would maybe support one or two weekly flights to each of those cities, let alone daily flights on wide-bodies. The only reason AA flies to Asia from DFW is that it doesn't have strong hubs where a pacific gateway makes sense. They can't make the ORD flights work because UA is much stronger in both Chicago and Asia while LAX is very competitive and does't have the feed to make flights work.

O&D wise, almost no hub could support a longhaul flight alone. DFW-ICN, for example is DFW's largest Asian market. Its about the same size as ORD-HKG (both around 110-120 PDEW). Even with ORD, the only Asian markets it could fill solely on O&D on a daily basis would be ICN and NRT.

If youre talking about markets that can fill planes to many Asian cities on a daily basis, youre talking only of NYC, LAX, SFO, YVR, and ORD and DC can really do that.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):

DFW and ATL are two different markets, with relative strengths and weaknesses to each. There may well be a reason why DFW sees more nonstop flights to Asia than ATL.

Geography would have to be it. They are similar in size to Asia on the whole. DFW-Asia is more spread out and ATL-Asia is much more centered on Korea.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 49):
Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 47):
I can see Houston to HKG/Asia traffic can be won by AA despite it's a UA's hub.

Over connecting with UA at NRT, LAX, SFO or ORD ? I doubt the high-value flyers (eg. Mileage Plus members for UA) would even look at flying AA through DFW. If anything AA might fill in a few economy seats from IAH but that's about it.

Ummmm....DFW-HKG is larger than IAH-HKG by a large margin actually. IAH-Asia is larger than DFW-Asia overall, but not to every market. DFW is larger to NRT (and all of Japan), ICN (and all of Korea), HKG, and TPE. IAH is larger to Mainland China (by a good margin) and Southeast Asia (sans Thailand but the difference is negligible).

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 40):
Then how come the numbers on wiki don't jive with that gentlemen?

First off, and again, NYC has a much larger Asian community. NOBODY is denying that.

But also the Asian community in DFW is far more integrated than it is in NYC.

Sounds like you need some numbers for perspective in regards to Asians in America. My disclaimer is that this has nothing to do with O&D, and everything to do with demographics:

International immigrant from Asia by Combined Statistical Area in 2011:

1) New York: 76,294
2) Los Angeles: 49,968
3) San Francisco/San Jose: 36,492
4) Washington/Baltimore: 20,208
5) Chicago: 15,789
6) Dallas: 12,412
7) Houston: 12,218
8) San Diego: 11,178
9) Seattle: 10,803
10) Philadelphia: 9,444
11) Atlanta: 9,249
12) Boston: 8,924
13) Detroit: 8,447
14) Phoenix: 6,073
15) Riverside: 5,426
16) Honolulu: 5,020

International Immigration from Asia in 2012:

New York: 71,184
Los Angeles/Riverside: 51,325
San Francisco/San Jose: 33,089
Washington/Baltimore: 19,698
Chicago: 15,005
Houston: 12,218
Dallas: 11,665
Seattle: 10,104
San Diego: 9,116
Atlanta: 9,087
Boston: 8,838
Philadelphia: 8,414
Detroit: 8,071
Phoenix: 4,861
Sacramento: 4,697
Minneapolis: 4,579
Honolulu: 4,488
Miami: 4,267

Asian growth (domestic and international) from 2010 to 2012. This also accounts for natural change and people moving between cities, which the numbers above dont:

New York: 115,638
Los Angeles: 78,793
San Francisco: 62,119
Washington DC: 42,938
Houston: 35,149
Dallas: 34,579
Seattle: 34,325
San Jose: 33,194
Chicago: 28,918
Boston: 24,353
Atlanta: 22,679
Philadelphia: 19,892
San Diego: 19,397
Riverside: 15,893
Minneapolis: 15,159
Sacramento: 14,868
Phoenix: 13,712
Las Vegas: 12,442
Baltimore: 12,121
Miami: 11,803
Portland: 10,771
Detroit: 10,199

Another thing you need to consider. Cities in the South dont really have ethnic neighborhoods like they do up North. The South is far more integrated. Instead of a "Chinatown" (though Houston does have one), youll get a series of Chinese shops on one side of the street, on the other side it could be Pakistani, Korean, or whatever. Its just a big mix mash.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 34):
That's Point 2. And again I say NO.

Well, youre wrong.

[Edited 2014-07-30 09:30:35]

[Edited 2014-07-30 09:32:01]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
CXGabriel
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 49):
Over connecting with UA at NRT, LAX, SFO or ORD ? I doubt the high-value flyers (eg. Mileage Plus members for UA) would even look at flying AA through DFW. If anything AA might fill in a few economy seats from IAH but that's about it.

If you're just looking at IAH-HKG, LAX is out of the question. Through NRT, it needs ANA connection to HKG, which is not always available due to overbooking. That left with SFO or ORD. SFO flying back to IAH has a 4-hr layover. ORD is a longer way. DFW is a short 1-hr hoop and there're many flights between the two cities. And btw, you're assuming everyone in Houston is UA Milage Plus members or very happy with UA. Not true! Sure, if you're a member, you probably will fly them. My point is that AA can offer competition, with their offering in the 77W is far superior to UA's 744 (SFO) or 777 (ORD) at this point.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:30 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 54):
The southeast/midwest can generate plenty, but the competitive choices are also plenty (IAH ATL DTW ORD, and to a certain degree, JFK EWR IAD MSP).

Yes and no. There's no question that DFW is not the only connecting hub for many of these markets in the southern and eastern U.S., but on the flip side, some of those hubs are of greater or less competitive relevance compared to DFW. Examples can be found on both sides. ATL, JFK, EWR and IAD are not at all competitive for any demand to/from Texas, for instance - not saying people don't fly Texas-ATL/JFK/EWR/IAD-Asia (I'm sure it happens) but those hubs aren't really meaningful competitors to DFW in that particular case.

But, again, the market is growing as commercial linkages grow, so again, the question is whether these commercial linkages will product sufficient demand to "lift all boats" and - in particular in the case of DFW - be able to support multiple daily widebodies to Asia.

I think it will be able to. We shall see.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 53):

But again - all of this focus is on O&D, without taking into accounting O&D from all of the places behind DFW for which DFW has instantly become a very attractive connecting point. I'm not disputing that DFW isn't the largest Asia O&D market in the U.S., but again, there are very few longhaul routes on any U.S. airline from any U.S. gateway that could survive on O&D alone. They pretty much all rely on connections to a certain extent.

When you start to count connections and behind hub, all the competitors come into play. Take a random example like BHM-ICN.

Via UA/OZ/ORD 7135mi
Via DL/KE/ATL 7286mi (A380 service)
Via AA/DFW 7438mi

For a passenger who is neutral to FF programs, DFW is no more advantageous than the other choices.

Quoting commavia (Reply 57):
We shall see.

Isn't the whole point of the discussion is to forecast/predict what might happen in 5 years, instead of actually waiting the 5 years ?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 56):
Through NRT, it needs ANA connection to HKG, which is not always available due to overbooking.

??? As opposed to the AA option which never runs into overbooking ?

Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 56):
My point is that AA can offer competition, with their offering in the 77W is far superior to UA's 744 (SFO) or 777 (ORD) at this point.

Depends on which class. 3-4-3 on 77W isn't exactly "superior", let alone "far superior".
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 56):
ORD is a longer way.

By distance, not by total time.

IAH-HKG on a random day in March'15, AA via DFW is 20:05 with 1:50 layover while UA via ORD is 20:00 with 1:27 layover.

Via SFO is actually the shortest total time at 19:50 if you don't mind sprinting inside SFO T3 with 0:45 layover.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
When you start to count connections and behind hub, all the competitors come into play. Take a random example like BHM-ICN.

Via UA/OZ/ORD 7135mi
Via DL/KE/ATL 7286mi (A380 service)
Via AA/DFW 7438mi

For a passenger who is neutral to FF programs, DFW is no more advantageous than the other choices.

Again, yes and no. You just picked one example that fits your argument. I previously listed several that would undermine your argument. What about AUS-ICN, a large and growing local market with particularly strong corporate connections? Is DFW "no more advantageous" there?

It seems as though you're trying to make the point that DFW is geographically no better off than other hubs and I simply do not agree with that. Like with just about any hub, there are some geographies for which DFW is absolutely better off, and some for which it's not. The question, in my mind, is if those "puts and takes" equal out to DFW being able to support ~6 daily widebodies to Asia. And again, I - personally - think it does, given macroeconomic conditions and demographic trends.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Isn't the whole point of the discussion is to forecast/predict what might happen in 5 years, instead of actually waiting the 5 years ?

   Oh boy. This again. Uh - yeah - the point of this thread is to make predictions and prognostications. Perhaps you missed the multiple times up-thread where I and many others have done just that?

I was simply saying that - as is often the case here - among those who are pessimistic and those (like myself) more optimistic, there's really no point in arguing the same points over and over.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Again, yes and no. You just picked one example that fits your argument. I previously listed several that would undermine your argument. What about AUS-ICN, a large and growing local market with particularly strong corporate connections? Is DFW "no more advantageous" there?

And AUS-ICN is actually a good sized market and the fares are good.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:41 pm

In your example, BHM-ICN, You forgot this option:
Via DL/DTW 7,260 miles

IMO, for those wishing to travel BHM to ICN, this would be the most convenient option.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Via UA/OZ/ORD 7135mi
Via DL/KE/ATL 7286mi (A380 service)
Via AA/DFW 7438mi

For a passenger who is neutral to FF programs, DFW is no more advantageous than the other choices.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):

Again, yes and no. You just picked one example that fits your argument. I previously listed several that would undermine your argument. What about AUS-ICN, a large and growing local market with particularly strong corporate connections? Is DFW "no more advantageous" there?

Actually the "several examples" you're quoting are just Texas. AUS is a very special case due to Samsung. Previously you listed a few cities :

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
plus all the connections coming from bigger cities like ATL, AUS, HOU, MCO, MIA,

HOU ATL already has some service on their own, and MCO MIA are equal or better with other hubs. For the rest of southeast, the number of cities that are *explicitly* advantageous via DFW is a handful. My point is every hub in the region can count on connections from behind while you made it sound like the southeast is DFW's private garden.

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Perhaps you missed the multiple times up-thread where I and many others have done just that?
Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
Let's see where things stand in five years.
Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
We'll see.
Quoting commavia (Reply 57):
We shall see.

Actually I can read just as many "we shall see" as actual predictions.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 64):
Actually the "several examples" you're quoting are just Texas.
Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 64):
Previously you listed a few cities

So which is it? My "several examples" are "just Texas," and yet my list that you quoted included examples outside Texas.

Either way, the point is the same. You can show examples where DFW is not well positioned. I can show examples where it is. Welcome back to reply 42 - so glad we can take a trip back down memory lane. Meanwhile, here in reply 65, my point is still unchanged. There is, in my view, sufficient trade and movement of people between Asia and the regions of the U.S. for which DFW is competitive, if not the optimal hub, to support as much as 6 daily widebodies from DFW to Asia.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 64):
Actually I can read just as many "we shall see" as actual predictions.

        

I have made predictions just as other people have. I don't have a crystal ball, so I temper those projections with the obvious - I don't know, and we shall see. You want to be more definitive? Knock yourself out. I couldn't care less.

You are pessimistic about the prospects of DFW-Asia for AA, like with just about everything else related to AA. Fine. I am more optimistic.

WE. SHALL. SEE.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):

You are pessimistic about the prospects of DFW-Asia for AA, like with just about everything else related to AA. Fine. I am more optimistic.

I give you a a lot of credit for being optimistic on 20-30 PDEWs. I prefer reality a little more.
 
SATexan
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):

1) Can the current level of service be sustained?
2) Will the growing AA fleet help with the more secondary DFW-Asia routes (Im speaking mainly of PVG but also HKG as well)?
3) The ME3 are unleashing an insane amount of capacity at DFW in a very short amount of time. Is this sustainable?

DFW - ICN: This route should do just fine even with KE flying the route. DFW-ICN is a large local market and is growing. Texas-ICN market in itself is more than 200 PDEW. Although not much, ICN is the #1 Asian market from places like Austin, San Antonio and McAllen. There are also quite a few minor Telecom companies on Plano Pkwy that have good business ties with Korea in addition to giants like Samsung.

DFW - NRT: IMHO, This route will not be able to sustain twice daily 777. The local market is much smaller than ICN. Even though JL provides connections to destinations such as SGN, TPE, PEK and BKK, I still think it would be prudent to just have a daily 77W to NRT. However, I am told consistently on the A.net DFW threads that the NRT flights are very profitable. So there may be more dimensions to this (such as cargo, Latin / South American connections etc.). Further, as long as AA does not operate a MIA - Asia route, I guess they will be fine with a second flight to NRT out of DFW solely based on connections from Florida, South Eastern USA and Latin America.

DFW - DOH/AUH/DXB: I am not surprised by the presence of ME3 in DFW. DFW - India is growing very rapidly and so are markets like ADD, KWI, CAI, KTM, TEH, DAC, IST, NBO and DXB. Karachi is shrinking but I think Pakistan overall is a growing market out of DFW. Each one of the ME3 carriers have their own advantages. Etihad can benefit from the pre-clearance facility and their tie up with Jet Airways will help them with the Indian point of sale. Emirates can take advantage of the huge network and multiple banks out of DXB. QR being a OW member can work closely with AA. Since, AA has not made any public intentions about restarting service to India or starting any new routes to the ME, I think the ME3 carriers are in good footing as far as DFW is concerned. If they don't engage in a price war, I can see the ME3 peacefully coexisting though I personally think that the EK A380 might be an overkill.

DFW-PVG: DFW-PVG and DFW-China in general is not a big market at all. PVG is a growing market from DFW that might support a 787 at some point. As things stand right now, there is too much reliance on capturing connections (especially from Florida) and hence I don't see this route sticking for too long.

DFW-HKG: Hub-to-hub route on a rather thin market. This flight might benefit substantially if AA chops PVG and funnels a good chunk of China bound passengers via HKG.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 66):
I give you a a lot of credit for being optimistic on 20-30 PDEWs. I prefer reality a little more.

Just curious, which markets from DFW to you think have 20-30 PDEW within Asia?

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):

Thank you for a detailed analysis! Best post of the thread yet.  

I agree fully. My doubts regarding DFW-Asia service are not HKG, the ME3, and certinaly not ICN and NRT. My doubts about sustainable DFW-Asia service are PVG and PEK.
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jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):

Just curious, which markets from DFW to you think have 20-30 PDEW within Asia?

I'm quoting one of your old threads from 2013 saying PEK and PVG are both in the 20-35 range. But that's 2013 and I guess times have changed.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 55):

Were you stomping your foot when you said that?

I have an opinion you have an opinion in a thread of what ifs and conjecture by a bunch of resident experts. Stay calm stay real  
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 69):
I'm quoting one of your old threads from 2013 saying PEK and PVG are both in the 20-35 range. But that's 2013 and I guess times have changed.

No, both are in the 40-50 range and HKG is about the same. Biggest difference is that the fares between DFW and Mainland China arent good. They are good between DFW and HKG.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 70):
Were you stomping your foot when you said that?

I have an opinion you have an opinion in a thread of what ifs and conjecture by a bunch of resident experts. Stay calm stay real

Regarding the demographics, at least I supplied data to back up mine.

Regarding the flights themselves, how can anyone say with a straight face that a 787 wouldnt help a route to Asia? Look at DEN-NRT. The 777 was too large, but the 787 provided the right size and it seems to be doing quite well. Look at AA's current Asia network. The only options for the flights are cabins that are very premium heavy. Make a cabin less premium heavy or reduce the capacity and cost of opperation and things begin to look very different.

Youve made some incorrect statements in this thread (especially regarding the demographics of DFW). They have to be pointed out. Ill concede we dont know how all of this is going to turn out. Time will tell. Until then we conjur up thoughts...

[Edited 2014-07-30 11:53:07]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
CXGabriel
Posts: 136
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 59):
Depends on which class. 3-4-3 on 77W isn't exactly "superior", let alone "far superior".

Obviously, that's a very subjective thing, but the AA's 77W 3-4-3 and UA's 744 3-4-3 have the same width per seat in economy (17in) and 31in pitch, so they're the same. UA's 777 has an inch wider width in economy. Overall experience (I flew economy plus/main cabin extra and J class), I had a better experience on AA than UA, that's all!

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 59):
??? As opposed to the AA option which never runs into overbooking ?

I meant to say fully booked; thus, not available. I'd prefer IAH-NRT-HKG because at least one segment is NOT on UA.


Back to the topic, I think DFW-HKG is going to stay. I don't know 77W is too big or not, but the fact that they have connecting customers in both ends will make it work, plus code sharing with CX definitely helps to sell seats.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:31 pm

I agree that AA will see some Houston flyers on the HKG route. If flying Y/Y+ there is absolutly no way I will take one of UA's rattletrap 744's across the Pacific. That leaves me booking a connection in ORD or EWR. Frankly, I wish CX were flying out of DFW, but AA isn't that bad, and I'd hope they will put their best foot forward on such a long route to make it successful. UA hasn't done themselves many favors in IAH over the last couple of years. This is why you see many foriegn flagged carriers entering the IAH market and making a go of things. AA on DFW-HKG just adds to the options available.
 
airDFW
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
If they don't engage in a price war,

I hope they do..
 
 
nomorerjs
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:35 pm

The 787 can't get to AA quick enough for China, and a few other routes! PVG should improve with this aircraft and could help with BJS. The main problem with BJS is the hideous slots compared to UA (which is upgauging ORD-BJS to a 744 this winter - swaps with FRA).
 
9w748capt
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:47 pm

What I don't get is why do so many NE posters make it sound like they WANT these DFW-Asia flights to fail. DFW was somewhat of a sleeping giant in terms of int'l service - I remember multiple threads discussing this over the past few years. Now - thanks to multiple factors - i.e. the ME3 and others getting over simply flying to the coasts - a healthier, stronger AA - a world-class facility (where would you rather connect? DFW or JFK? Or even LAX? It's not even close!) - DFW is finally seeing the level of int'l service it (probably) can support. Sure, it may be overserved and EK may not be able to fill the A380, but that happens in every market. Even JFK and LAX have seen their share of cuts over the years. Combine all this with the economic growth in the south (as a resident of OKC I've seen our fares skyrocket - I'm guessing in part due to the strong economy here) - and DFW is setup very well to support a high level of int'l service - including even to ASIA!
 
nomorerjs
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:26 am

"What I don't get is why do so many NE posters make it sound like they WANT these DFW-Asia flights to fail."

DFW / Texas envy. People are moving to Texas in droves and leaving the NE just as fast. The economy in DFW is booming, housing is 1/2 the price of the NE, no state income tax, jobs, and not much snow to shovel.
 
Thomaas
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 77):
DFW / Texas envy. People are moving to Texas in droves and leaving the NE just as fast. The economy in DFW is booming, housing is 1/2 the price of the NE, no state income tax, jobs, and not much snow to shovel.

Look at the O&D numbers for any city pair between Texas and Asia and you'll find that it is often just a fraction of what it is from big coastal markets e.g. NYC, IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO. It's a very simple number game and they're all available to you if you want to get your facts straight.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 78):
ORD,

Hummmmm.....was not aware Chicago was a "coastal" market, unless you count Lake Michigan as coastal, I suppose that can be argued.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1770
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 79):
Hummmmm.....was not aware Chicago was a "coastal" market, unless you count Lake Michigan as coastal, I suppose that can be argued.

LMAO

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 78):
Look at the O&D numbers for any city pair between Texas and Asia and you'll find that it is often just a fraction of what it is from big coastal markets e.g. NYC, IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO. It's a very simple number game and they're all available to you if you want to get your facts straight.

Uh, it's not quite that simple. You seem to be blissfully unaware that DFW is an AA fortress - and serves not just the DFW metroplex but in many ways a large chunk of the southern US. Go read the FT thread on the DFW-HKG flight. People are regularly flying LGA-DFW-HKG and LAX-DFW-HKG. You don't have to believe what you read, but the info's out there for your perusal. No one's denying that DFW doesn't have the O&D of New York or LA, we all know that it doesn't. All commavia and others are saying is that DFW is indeed a large market (large enough to support several strategically placed flights), and DFW as an airport has favorable location and infrastructure, and the resident dominant airline (AA) is well equipped to feed these Asian flights literally from points all around the globe. Why you can't understand this is beyond me.
 
9w748capt
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:29 am

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 77):
DFW / Texas envy. People are moving to Texas in droves and leaving the NE just as fast. The economy in DFW is booming, housing is 1/2 the price of the NE, no state income tax, jobs, and not much snow to shovel.

  

That has to be part of it. Favorite part for me is living just a half hr flight from DFW. In OKC we reap the benefits without suffering through DFW traffic  
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:16 am

If DTW works, why not DFW?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 71):
Youve made some incorrect statements in this thread (especially regarding the demographics of DFW). They have to be pointed out

I did?

Guess you missed these 2 links above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...large_Chinese_American_populations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ficant_Korean_American_populations


But since you ignore words, here are pics

Flushing Queens

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0LEVz1ctdlTNSoAbyJXNyoA?p=flushing+queens&fr=yfp-t-327&fr2=piv-web

That's an Asian community. Not Chinatown either. Flushing, Queens. You don't have it down there.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 36):
Its just that Asians here are well-integrated into the communities and are not shunted into racial/ethnic specific enclaves.

Just like I'm a third generation European American. I don't go back to the "old country" every summer the way my grandparents did. Because I'm American and I'm integrated. I've been to the "old country" twice.

People shunted into Racial/Ethnic enclaves are immigrants. Immigrants that are comfortable with their own people because they have one foot in a new country and one emotional foot in the old country. These are people that fill the Y cabin on flights to Asia without the need for large amounts of connectors.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 78):

Look at the O&D numbers for any city pair between Texas and Asia and you'll find that it is often just a fraction of what it is from big coastal markets e.g. NYC, IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO. It's a very simple number game and they're all available to you if you want to get your facts straight.

Correct. Beyond CHI Town being coastal. Numbers are there.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 80):

Uh, it's not quite that simple. You seem to be blissfully unaware that DFW is an AA fortress - and serves not just the DFW metroplex but in many ways a large chunk of the southern US. Go read the FT thread on the DFW-HKG flight. People are regularly flying LGA-DFW-HKG and LAX-DFW-HKG.

Also 100% correct. When people fly those routings, it is at a big discount to JFK-HKG or LAX-HKG nonstop. And AA is burning fuel and crew costs to fly people on a 4 hour flight to DFW before the gas guzzling flight to HKG. People will connect anywhere if the price is right. If AA is filling the flights with these connectors, they are losing a lot of money on these flights.  
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:33 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 83):

Your ignorance is astounding. Wikipedia doesn't tell you about the full nature of Asians in an area, unless you think the term Asian applies to just Koreans and Chinese.

You know nothing of development of Asian communities, newer immigration patterns, or the diaspora of the DFW Asian group. There are around 400k Asians in the DFW area. That's larger than Boston or Philly. For the last time NOBODY BUT YOU IS COMPARING DFW TO NEW YORK. THERES A MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN HAVING AN ASIAN COMMUNITY THE SIZE OF NYC AND NOT HAVING AN ASIAN COMMUNITY AT ALL.

Hopefully the large letters will make my point more clear.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Thomaas
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 80):
DFW as an airport has favorable location and infrastructure, and the resident dominant airline (AA) is well equipped to feed these Asian flights literally from points all around the globe.
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 80):
People are regularly flying LGA-DFW-HKG and LAX-DFW-HKG.

The issue with Dallas is that it is one of the least convenient routings for transpacific passengers unless they are connecting from the southeast, Florida or South America (with the visa requirements for connecting passengers you can pretty much cross that one off). Even for the markets mentioned, flying through ORD and DTW would be faster as they are the closest points to large Asian markets if you use the great circle mapper. (excluding the west coast of course).

People will only fly a routing such as LAX-DFW-HKG and LGA-DFW-HKG if there is a big discount on the fare, and we all know that it's not the type of passengers AA is looking to attract. Not only is this routing adding at least an hour over other better alternatives, it also costs AA more money to serve said customer because the plane has to fly longer therefore more fuel and crew money spent routing the passenger through a hub that is in no way convenient for journeys to Asia. AA would never generate any type of profit by rerouting passengers through a longer route.



Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 82):

If DTW works, why not DFW?

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION

DTW-PVG 14 hr 35 min 7,137 miles
DFW-PVG 15 hr 10 min 7351 miles

+214 miles

DTW-ICN 14 hr 00 min 6636 miles
DFW-ICN 14 hr 45 min 6841 mi

+205 miles

From Asia you overfly at least 90% of the O&D to get to Dallas. In the day and age where airlines are trying to save on fuel, flying an extra 200 miles just so your passengers can backtrack isn't the best way to make money. You can bet that had AA had a strong hub at LAX, DFW would have never gotten all these flights. LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, DTW, JFK, EWR not only have much higher O&D to Asia but are also a more convenient connecting point for most of the US than DFW is. I can't think of a single routing where DFW would have the edge over ORD for that matter.
 
SATexan
Posts: 277
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:25 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 52):
Add in 50% for "market stimulation from nonstop" and the numbers still aren't that rosy.

I don't think the market stimulation can be quantified that simplistically. A decade ago, IAD did not have non-stop flights to PEK, DXB or DOH. Today, after the fact that nonstop flights are in place for a while, the same markets have grown almost 300%, 300% and 600% respectively in terms of O&D. To give you some more random examples, IAH-DXB has grown nearly 600% and DFW-MAD about 150% since 2004 and these numbers can be directly attributed to the introduction of nonstop flights. Of course, DFW-PVG may do better than 50% or worse than 50%. Who know's    


Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):
Thank you for a detailed analysis! Best post of the thread yet.

Much appreciated!
 
HKG212
Posts: 137
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:28 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
DFW-HKG is the wildcard. The 77W may be two big, but the 787 may be too small.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
To HKG, perhaps. It has yet to be seen though advance bookings are looking very good. It is just a question of if the yield they are getting from it covers the cost of opperation. Filling the plane will not be the long term problem if there is any.

I know from a very good source they were doing more than 80% load factor in the first month of operation, revenue customers. About 40% transfer to CX or KA. So it looks like a winning route.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
However, I am told consistently on the A.net DFW threads that the NRT flights are very profitable.

I have flown DFW-NRT many times, flights were almost always full, at least in the front. The JL hub in NRT is the obvious explanation. I'm wondering if the HKG route will cannibalize some of that, at least southeast Asian transfers.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 85):
South America (with the visa requirements for connecting passengers you can pretty much cross that one off).

Flying from NRT, ICN and HKG often in the last several years, I have seen quite a few connecting passengers via DFW to Latin American destinations. Many business travelers in Asia have multi-year visas to the US. Perhaps most importantly, until CX starts flying to MAD, there are no good choices for Asia-Latin America routes, with the very limited service offered via either European or Mid-Eastern hubs.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 85):

Not true. DFW has more O&D to Asia than DTW overall. DTW has more O&D to Japan and PVG.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
airbazar
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 33):
LAX is AA's best hope for a true west coast Asian gateway.

I would argue that neither of them is because of the huge amount of competition at LAX which is likely to dilute yields. IMO AA should have multiple Asian gateways (not hubs), each catering to the strength of the region: LAX, ORD, DFW, JFK.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 36):
Great sushi at Korea House!

You're not making your case here. That's like saying great Brazilian food Casa de Maxico   

At the end of the day there are only 2 or 3 cities in this country that can sustain multiple Asian destinations on O&D alone, and Dallas is not one of them. DFW needs connections just like almost every other Asian Gateway needs connections. The problem with DFW is that said connections overfly much of the country.

Now, if the U.S. government were to eliminate the ridiculous practice of requiring transit visas and making everyone clear immigration and customs, then DFW could be an incredible global hub between Latin America and Asia.
 
commavia
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:53 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
IMO AA should have multiple Asian gateways (not hubs), each catering to the strength of the region: LAX, ORD, DFW, JFK.

Agreed. And I believe this is AA's strategy. AA recognizes that it lacks a "silver bullet" Asia gateway like Delta (SEA) and United (SFO) have, and as such it has to diversify its U.S. gateways to Asia.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
At the end of the day there are only 2 or 3 cities in this country that can sustain multiple Asian destinations on O&D alone, and Dallas is not one of them.

  

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
DFW needs connections just like almost every other Asian Gateway needs connections. The problem with DFW is that said connections overfly much of the country.

Fair, but again, traffic is growing and I think long-term economic and demographic trends favor DFW.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
Now, if the U.S. government were to eliminate the ridiculous practice of requiring transit visas and making everyone clear immigration and customs, then DFW could be an incredible global hub between Latin America and Asia.

DFW is already an "incredible global hub between Latin America and Asia" - transit visas (for most, but not all, nationalities) or not.
 
Thomaas
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
The problem with DFW is that said connections overfly much of the country.

Amen
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 83):
Just like I'm a third generation European American. I don't go back to the "old country" every summer the way my grandparents did. Because I'm American and I'm integrated. I've been to the "old country" twice.

People shunted into Racial/Ethnic enclaves are immigrants. Immigrants that are comfortable with their own people because they have one foot in a new country and one emotional foot in the old country. These are people that fill the Y cabin on flights to Asia without the need for large amounts of connectors.

Oy.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
The problem with DFW is that said connections overfly much of the country.

It's time to put an end to this total ridicule.

You guys realize that DFW airport is one of the PREMIER connecting hubs in the US and has been for decades.

If it were not the case, on an INTERNATIONAL basis, then the hub would not support 4X nonstop daily flights to LHR, 2X nonstop flights to NRT, 2x to FRA, CDG, MAD, GRU, GIG, EZE, BOG, SCL, SYD/BNE, etc. etc. etc.

The realm of intercontinental reach supported by nonstop services to DFW more than validates that this "overfly" crap is complete nonsense.

I'm also tired of hearing this crap about lack of international O&D to DFW. By the logic many of you are using, then STL should be in place of DFW, in which case it is not.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 90):

Agreed. And I believe this is AA's strategy. AA recognizes that it lacks a "silver bullet" Asia gateway like Delta (SEA) and United (SFO) have, and as such it has to diversify its U.S. gateways to Asia.

Actually UA is as diversified as you can get :

NRT - SFO ORD EWR LAX IAD IAH DEN
PVG - SFO ORD EWR LAX ....................
PEK - SFO ORD EWR ....... IAD ..............
HKG - SFO ORD EWR .............................

Only more secondary destinations are SFO unique - ICN KIX HND TPE CTU, plus tag-ons SIN SGN
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 92):

You guys realize that DFW airport is one of the PREMIER connecting hubs in the US and has been for decades.

If it were not the case, on an INTERNATIONAL basis, then the hub would not support 4X nonstop daily flights to LHR, 2X nonstop flights to NRT, 2x to FRA, CDG, MAD, GRU, GIG, EZE, BOG, SCL, SYD/BNE, etc. etc. etc.

You have listed *generic* reason of what a super large hub does, and attempting to interpolate it to explain how a large hub can support any service.

DL had their share of cancellations to Asia from hubs of various sizes in the past 5-6 years :

ATL-PVG
ATL-BOM
JFK-BOM
DTW-HKG
SEA-KIX

Posters like Thomaas or airbazar aren't being "pessimistic". If DL, carrying over decades of NW experience and branding, can have their fair share of withdrawals, what makes AA or DFW immune ?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:44 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 94):
If DL, carrying over decades of NW experience and branding, can have their fair share of withdrawals, what makes AA or DFW immune ?

I never said that AA and DFW were immune. However, it's noteworthy that AA, nor any other airline, has not dropped an intercontinental route from DFW since 2007 when they axed ZRH. That says something.

Plus, I was not trying to reason that a large hub can support service to anywhere. I was pointing out that the "overfly" excuse that people keep throwing out here clearly hasn't rendered DFW irrelevant.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 93):
Actually UA is as diversified as you can get :

No question. United is the dominant U.S. carrier to Asia - and always will be. And United absolutely does, without question, have the strongest and most diversified hub structure in the U.S. with respect to Asia.

But, for all of that, United's "silver bullet" is still SFO - it is the foundation upon which the entire rest of their Asia franchise is built. It is similar to AA's even-greater dominance of U.S.-Latin America - AA has a very strong franchise into the Caribbean and South/Central America from multiple U.S. gateways - including DFW and MIA - but all of that really stands on the shoulders of MIA, which is the preeminent U.S. hub for the region.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 94):
If DL, carrying over decades of NW experience and branding, can have their fair share of withdrawals,

It's really hard to extrapolate from Delta's experience reasonable expectations about AA's future prospects. The examples you listed - and similar examples of AA's own failures in Asia in recent years - are in many cases quite different.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 94):
what makes AA or DFW immune ?

I don't think anyone is suggestion that "AA or DFW" is "immune." But again, just because Delta failed at ATL-PVG doesn't necessarily say that, for instance, AA will fail at DFW-PVG.
 
AviRaider
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:03 pm

I've worked in the IT/Civil Engineering field for eight years now all in the DFW Metroplex. And, I've yet to come across one company in my industry that doesn't have several Asians and Asian Americans on staff; at some companies they make up a near majority of the local office. And, many of them take long extended trips each year to visit family back in their respective countries. I think people outside of the region forget that outside of northern California, DFW is the largest telecom/IT corridor in the US not to mention the large oil and gas presence. Although not a capacity expert like some of you, I can easily see why the ME3 carriers are doing good right now.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
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RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:03 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):

I don't think anyone is suggestion that "AA or DFW" is "immune." But again, just because Delta failed at ATL-PVG doesn't necessarily say that, for instance, AA will fail at DFW-PVG.

I'm not implying it's a 1-to-1 mapping, but from the tone I'm hearing, most (if not all) the DFW-Asia services can survive when both DL and UA has cancellations in recent years.

Just as if someone is suggesting UA fly SFO-HIJ I'd think it'll fail within 12 months too.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 98):
most (if not all) the DFW-Asia services can survive when both DL and UA has cancellations in recent years.

Again, one doesn't necessarily have everything to do with the other. So what if Delta and United have had cancellations in recent years? That doesn't necessarily mean DFW is or isn't able to support 6 daily widebodies to East Asia. Delta and United have both added new nonstop routes to East Asia in recent years, too, but that's not a ringing endorsement, either. Every market is different.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 98):
Just as if someone is suggesting UA fly SFO-HIJ I'd think it'll fail within 12 months too.

Okay, but there is not a single DFW-Asia route that is as "implausible" as SFO-HIJ.

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