IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:22 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:31 pm

The DFW MSA is now about 6.5 million people. Houston has 6.1 million. Austin has 1.8 million, and San Antonio has 1.4 million. Throw in OKC with about a million, and you have close to 17 million people living within a 75 minute flight of DFW airport. That's a huge cachement area. There are 51 Fortune 500 companies with HQ in Texas.
One of the questions posed by the OP was whether the level of service to Asia is flying is sustainable. We're only talking about 5 flights here. We're not talking about theoreticals to NGO or SGN or some such thing. These flights will not live or die based on O/D traffic only. If that was the case, Qantas would have taken their 744 ( soon to be 380) service to Australia and gone home by now.
As I said in an earlier post, I question whether PVG is sustainable, especially with the 777. A 788 would be a better fit. Even UA has had troubles with loads and yields to PVG from California.
But in all other cases, I think these are sustainable, due not only to VFR traffic and ethnic ties, but to a strong business community in Texas that buys lots of tickets "up front".
You can argue all you want about SFO, or DTW, or ORD being a better Asian gateway, but AA is playing the hand they were dealt here, and I think they will see a large degree of success with it.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:37 pm

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 100):
Even UA has had troubles with loads and yields to PVG from California.
SFO-PVG is on a 744, while LAX-PVG is slated for upgauge to 787-9 from 787-8

Another thread (I don't have the link) mentioned UA carried more passengers (absolute, not load factor) on their LAX-PVG 788 than AA on their 772

Again we're not allowed on A.net to interpolate or extrapolate anything because "every market is different".

[Edited 2014-07-31 08:38:57]
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:38 pm

For AA, it's a reasonable gateway, although Los Angeles will be better.

For UA, Houston's a good gateway (although they have hubs at LAX, SFO, ORD and DEN).

Because of IAH, the catchment area has to be split between the two Texas metros.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 100):
Even UA has had troubles with loads and yields to PVG from California.

Loads? No. For 2013:

Row Labels Sum of PASSENGERS Load Factor
LAX-PVG 511,354 89%
China Eastern Airlines 207,672 90%
United Air Lines 154,307 89%
American Airlines 149,375 87%

SFO-PVG 313,195 86%
United Air Lines 221,838 89%
China Eastern Airlines 91,357 79%

Yield, I'm not sure, but if the flights are being upgraded by both AA and UA, they are probably OK.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 95):
I never said that AA and DFW were immune. However, it's noteworthy that AA, nor any other airline, has not dropped an intercontinental route from DFW since 2007 when they axed ZRH. That says something.

Maybe because their was nothing to cut ? Let's not pretend that DFW is getting the level of service to Europe that east coast hubs are getting or the level of Asian service at west coast hubs. It is quite telling that few airlines other than AA fly to DFW. It simply means that most of the demand is hub driven and that the O&D including connections at the other airline's hub is limited. Let's take a look:

Europe

LH - FRA
KL - Seasonal AMS

BA - LHR (AA partner)
AA - CDG, MAD (Launched 2 years ago ? + Oneworld hub), FRA

2 destinations served by other airlines (3 if you count BA)
3 served by AA
I'd hardly call that impressive or having any "redundant" destinations

South America

AA - GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL

Only AA flights. We all know that without the strong presence that AA has at MIA and in South America in general, you wouldn't have those flights at DFW

Asia/Oceania

KE - ICN
QF - SYD (At DFW because of the lack of connections through AA at LAX)

AA - NRT (new PVG, HKG, ICN)

AA just doubled the amount of flights to Asia with its recent addition. If we just look at Asia, the only airline that flew to DFW was KE.

Middle East

EK - DXB

QR - DOH (New flight)
EI - AUH (New flight)

There again until recently EK was the only one flying to the middle east. It remains to be seen whether Dallas can support 3x daily.

DFW is a great HUB airport but isn't even in the top 5 O&D markets in the US for international flights. You can look at LAX, SFO, ORD, JFK, IAD, MIA and IAH before even considering DFW. Have a look at how many FOREIGN airlines operate at an airport and it'll tell you how strong O&D is versus simply having large demand because of connections.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 100):
The DFW MSA is now about 6.5 million people. Houston has 6.1 million. Austin has 1.8 million, and San Antonio has 1.4 million. Throw in OKC with about a million, and you have close to 17 million people living within a 75 minute flight of DFW airport.

I'd argue that the southeast is one of the least internationally focused regions of the US. As a proportion of the population, it has a relatively small concentration of immigrants versus the east and west coast and therefore demand for international flights is much smaller than it is from more cosmopolitan areas of the US. Except IAH (not much oil left in the US so it had to look outwards for continuous prosperity), demand for Asian or even European flights is much smaller.
 
YoungDon
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
I'd argue that the southeast is one of the least internationally focused regions of the US. As a proportion of the population, it has a relatively small concentration of immigrants versus the east and west coast and therefore demand for international flights is much smaller than it is from more cosmopolitan areas of the US. Except IAH (not much oil left in the US so it had to look outwards for continuous prosperity), demand for Asian or even European flights is much smaller.

I'd argue that the Midwest is the least internationally focused if you're looking at the four traditional regions of the U.S., but even beyond that, you do realize that the U.S. is arguably the world's largest crude oil producer right?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...oducer-after-overtaking-saudi.html

DFW may not have the strongest Asian or European demand by itself, but the MSA has the country's tenth largest population of Asian-Americans (~350K) and as other posters have mentioned, the State of Texas as a whole has well over a million Asian-Americans. I do agree that while for coastal traffic DFW is out of the way and a backtrack in general, there is a sizable market that it serves well and that is Texas and the surrounding states, as well as the southeast. For AA flyers not originating on the coasts, there's no doubt that the vast majority would rather connect in DFW as opposed to ORD, even if it adds a couple of hundred miles (or ~20-25 minutes of flight time) to the flight.

I guess what I'm trying to say overall is that it seems that you're significantly discounting the strength of the Asian community in the DFW area, as well as in the southeast in general. They are sizable markets and the additional flights that DFW (and IAH for that matter) have recently added are likely long overdue and will result in many people from that region being able to avoid a west coast connection to go to Asia.

I think that these flights are here to stay for the long haul (no pun intended).
 
SATexan
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:49 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:11 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
I'd argue that the southeast is one of the least internationally focused regions of the US.

As opposed to the Mountain West? Midwest?

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
Except IAH (not much oil left in the US so it had to look outwards for continuous prosperity),

Oh really!!!!! I did not know that. I thought we had a boom going on in my hood with the whole Eagle Ford shale project   
 
Thomaas
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 106):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
Except IAH (not much oil left in the US so it had to look outwards for continuous prosperity),

Oh really!!!!! I did not know that. I thought we had a boom going on in my hood with the whole Eagle Ford shale project   

Texas is now mostly refining the oil as opposed to producing it. That was what I was referring to.

[Edited 2014-07-31 14:30:29]
 
kevin
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
DFW-DOH-SIN is a good 2000mi longer than DFW-NRT-SIN so I don't think they're really competing for the same market)

U'd b surprised what a good priced ticket can do  
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:47 am

Texas is now mostly refining the oil as opposed to producing it. That was what I was referring to.

Look at the Permian Basin around Midland and the Eagle Ford Shale, Texas Oil Production is exploding (at least on private land). Texas is number 1 in oil production in the US.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Ene...s-in-oil-production/1381399986602/

http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/20...l-production-continues-record.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/...loads/2013/03/texasoil-600x416.jpg

http://www.shaleenergyinsider.com/20...oduction-in-bakken-and-eagle-ford/
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
I'd argue that the southeast is one of the least internationally focused regions of the US. As a proportion of the population, it has a relatively small concentration of immigrants versus the east and west coast and therefore demand for international flights is much smaller than it is from more cosmopolitan areas of the US. Except IAH (not much oil left in the US so it had to look outwards for continuous prosperity), demand for Asian or even European flights is much smaller.

Thats statistically incorrect. The Mountain West and the Southwest definitely are less so. Also, if we look beyond airlines and into international immigration and immigrant population, Houston is number 7, Dallas is number 8, and Atlanta is number 10. By taking that into consideration, the South is more international than the Midwest.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
South America

AA - GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL

Only AA flights. We all know that without the strong presence that AA has at MIA and in South America in general, you wouldn't have those flights at DFW

DFW-GRU would still exist regardless. If DFW had any kind of hub, with or without MIA, GRU would be there. You also missed, LIM and BOG.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
I'd hardly call that impressive or having any "redundant" destinations

I also wouldn't call DFW's European destination list impressive either.

I would call DFW's Gulf destination list impressive.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
It simply means that most of the demand is hub driven and that the O&D including connections at the other airline's hub is limited.

No, thats not what it means. It means that the home based carrier takes the lions share of the O&D.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 104):
You can look at LAX, SFO, ORD, JFK, IAD, MIA and IAH before even considering DFW.

Umm…IAH has 15 foreign carriers and DFW has 13. Not exactly a huge difference.

I don't expect you to reply to this (just like you fell silent when I point out that DTW had less Asian O&D than DFW although you said it did). But the things above had to be corrected.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 100):
Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 94):
Posters like Thomaas or airbazar aren't being "pessimistic".

Well, one of them is being uninformed anyway...

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 94):
ATL-PVG
ATL-BOM
JFK-BOM
DTW-HKG
SEA-KIX

A couple of things:

1) I don't expect DFW-PVG to survive in its current form. It will either be a 787 route or not a route at all.
2) DL had no parter at the HKG end, AA does. They both codeshare on the flight. I don't know if the 77W is too big, but this route will be around in some form or fashion for the long haul IMO.
3) Flights to India from the US are almost impossible to maintain.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
You're not making your case here. That's like saying great Brazilian food Casa de Maxico

Thats true. He walked right into to that one (although he is correct in that they do have good sushi). I would have pointed out the Bulgogi at Koyro or the Korean pastries at one of the bakeries in Koreatown. Dallas has amazing Korean food.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 89):
At the end of the day there are only 2 or 3 cities in this country that can sustain multiple Asian destinations on O&D alone, and Dallas is not one of them. DFW needs connections just like almost every other Asian Gateway needs connections. The problem with DFW is that said connections overfly much of the country.

Yes, its inconvenient for most of the US-Asia demand. However, there is still a large section of the country for which DFW is very convenient for US-Asia. Thats what DFW can capture well. Texas alone is a large market to Asia. Then you throw in the Southeast and the Midwest, I don't think supporting 4 destinations from DFW-Asia is far fetched at all. Based on O&D to Asia, DFW could fill about 4 777's to all of the continent. The O&D can't be forgotten as in any of these flights it will be the largest contributor even though (outside ICN), DFW couldn't fill a plane to any of the destinations off O&D alone.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
cjpmaestro
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:19 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 55):
Asian growth (domestic and international) from 2010 to 2012. This also accounts for natural change and people moving between cities, which the numbers above dont:

New York: 115,638
Los Angeles: 78,793
San Francisco: 62,119
Washington DC: 42,938
Houston: 35,149
Dallas: 34,579
Seattle: 34,325
San Jose: 33,194
Chicago: 28,918
Boston: 24,353
Atlanta: 22,679
Philadelphia: 19,892
San Diego: 19,397
Riverside: 15,893
Minneapolis: 15,159
Sacramento: 14,868
Phoenix: 13,712
Las Vegas: 12,442
Baltimore: 12,121
Miami: 11,803
Portland: 10,771
Detroit: 10,199

So I know this topic is DFW, which means AA is drawn into the mix. In looking at the list, PHL and PHX show some heavy gains and I know PHL already had a pretty good Asian population. Could they they each support a daily Asian flight? I think PHL is a no brainer, but maybe with PHX tourism and existing population, they could support a NRT daily. Also, if AA went this direction, it could bolster its desire for a better Asian network, but will most likely hurt DFW as there would be less need for connections. Anyway, I guess my question/point is - is AA (or OW) capitalizing on opportunities outside of DFW and LAX?
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:40 am

My neighbor flies for EK on DFW to DXB on the 77L, and they are "having second thoughts" about the upgrade with QR now in the market. The route has done well (DFW to DXB), but thoughts are the "rush to beat QF" are now backfiring. A 77W is the better choice (of course this comes from and EK 777 pilot).
 
User avatar
gdg9
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
It is a ULH route that the 77W can barely do, 77E can't do, 788 might do and 789 can do.

DFW HKG is, I am told reliably, going out with pretty much only pax bags, no freight, due to the length of the route, headwinds, issues with diversions in/near China and such. Just thought I would add.
@dfwtower
 
CXGabriel
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:26 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 113):
DFW HKG is, I am told reliably, going out with pretty much only pax bags, no freight, due to the length of the route, headwinds, issues with diversions in/near China and such. Just thought I would add.

I can see that on the DFW to HKG way, is it the same from HKG to DFW? It should be about an hour shorter. Because I think most of freight demand is from Asia to US (Apple products?). Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting CXGabriel (Reply 114):

I can see that on the DFW to HKG way, is it the same from HKG to DFW? It should be about an hour shorter. Because I think most of freight demand is from Asia to US (Apple products?). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Very different routing. Eastbound HKG-DFW goes up via TPE/NRT before crossing the pacific.

Westbound, in the early days, does a rather polar route to PEK then straight down to HKG (in order to avoid North Korea, which is along the great circle path), but lately I see it going via the YVR/ANC/CTS/TPE type routing. But either way, it's a good 8300-8400mi ground distance.
 
airDFW
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:44 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:37 pm

I know that a.net does not like it and premium passengers hate it but having a tech stop say in ANC would make the DFW-HKG make it work to be in black from beginning? Is the cost of fuel is so much this stop would make it work? Anybody has any figures or idea?
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 116):
I know that a.net does not like it and premium passengers hate it but having a tech stop say in ANC would make the DFW-HKG make it work to be in black from beginning? Is the cost of fuel is so much this stop would make it work? Anybody has any figures or idea?

That would be one way to guarantee a quick death to the flight.

A hub-to-hub route should not have to rely on technical stops unless the stop is in another "hub" i.e. QF DFW-BNE-SYD that can facilitate connections, OR has an O&D component on both legs like CX JFK-YVR-HKG (which exists in addition to multiple daily nonstop JFK-HKG services).

Not sure what the PDEWS are for ANCHKG, but doubtful that beyond freight, there is little need for this formality on the route.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 116):
I know that a.net does not like it and premium passengers hate it but having a tech stop say in ANC would make the DFW-HKG make it work to be in black from beginning? Is the cost of fuel is so much this stop would make it work? Anybody has any figures or idea?

That would make no sense. Why operate via ANC where there's virtually no O&D traffic when you could just as easily operate via a point with significant traffic potential, SEA for example? DFW-SEA-HKG is only 32 nm further than DFW-ANC-HKG. Even SFO is only 232 nm further.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 113):
DFW HKG is, I am told reliably, going out with pretty much only pax bags, no freight, due to the length of the route, headwinds, issues with diversions in/near China and such. Just thought I would add.



Thats not a good thing. If they cant carry cargo, that makes the route that much harder to make money on.

DFW-HKG has had some pretty good bookings, but its one helluva expensive flight to opperate. This flight is going to stick, but a 787-9 might be the way to go long term. The 77L would have been ideal, but AA doesnt have any.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 117):
Not sure what the PDEWS are for ANCHKG, but doubtful that beyond freight, there is little need for this formality on the route.



Alaska-Asia if heavily centered on the Philippines and to a lesser extent Korea. Its not a high yielding market from a passenger perspective.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 112):
My neighbor flies for EK on DFW to DXB on the 77L, and they are "having second thoughts" about the upgrade with QR now in the market. The route has done well (DFW to DXB), but thoughts are the "rush to beat QF" are now backfiring. A 77W is the better choice (of course this comes from and EK 777 pilot).

Frankly, EK has more planes and money than they know what to do with. The 380 is too much capacity for DFW-DXB with QR and EY in the market. If EK had the market to themselves, a 380 would be fine.

I once heard a person speak that the goal of the Gulf carriers isnt so much to make money of their airlines, but to provide connections to their region of the globe and to make their home countries more attractive for tourism and business. Sounds like there could be some truth to that.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
YoungDon
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 119):
I once heard a person speak that the goal of the Gulf carriers isnt so much to make money of their airlines, but to provide connections to their region of the globe and to make their home countries more attractive for tourism and business. Sounds like there could be some truth to that.

I've heard this too and I agree there seems to be a lot of truth to it. There will be some serious red ink flowing if all three ME3 carriers are there and EK sticks with the 380. That's about 1,000 seats a day to the middle east.

With that being said they are not going to back down from flying the 380 and it will be interesting to see who that flood of capacity eventually knocks out of the market. So many interesting dynamics surrounding DFW and the ME3 (not the least of which is the fact that AA codes with EY and QR, but EK flies the largest plane).
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting YoungDon (Reply 120):
With that being said they are not going to back down from flying the 380 and it will be interesting to see who that flood of capacity eventually knocks out of the market. So many interesting dynamics surrounding DFW and the ME3 (not the least of which is the fact that AA codes with EY and QR, but EK flies the largest plane).

Heres the deal though, AA doesnt code with QR on their DFW flight and might not on the EY flight either.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
YoungDon
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 121):
Heres the deal though, AA doesnt code with QR on their DFW flight and might not on the EY flight either.

Thanks for the insight. If that's the case that changes the calculus significantly.

I think EK will be OK regardless of what they fly. They already have reasonably strong demand out of DFW and I think they have the flexibility to adapt to EY and QR.

Assuming EY and AA don't code on the AUH flight, do you think that QR or EY would have the tougher time of making the route work? I'm honestly not sure - my guess would be that EY would be a little stronger than QR simply because EY isn't splitting its traffic across both the Houston and DFW markets (especially considering AA does code on the IAH-DOH flight correct?). QR has a lot of seats to fill out of TX.

Thoughts?
 
TUSAA
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:20 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:17 pm

Effective Aug 19th DFW-HKG will be blocked at 18hrs and as a result a 13th flight attendant will be added.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 123):
Effective Aug 19th DFW-HKG will be blocked at 18hrs and as a result a 13th flight attendant will be added.

you mean crew block time not flight block time ?
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 123):
Effective Aug 19th DFW-HKG will be blocked at 18hrs and as a result a 13th flight attendant will be added.

GOOD LORD!

That has to be the longest block time of any airline in the world.

Quoting YoungDon (Reply 122):
Assuming EY and AA don't code on the AUH flight, do you think that QR or EY would have the tougher time of making the route work? I'm honestly not sure - my guess would be that EY would be a little stronger than QR simply because EY isn't splitting its traffic across both the Houston and DFW markets (especially considering AA does code on the IAH-DOH flight correct?). QR has a lot of seats to fill out of TX.

AA may not have the codeshare out of DFW, but what they do have is the OneWorld connection for QR. That alone is going to lure a large number of travelers. I was one. Im traveling to India at the end of the month in business and I choose QR over EK, AA, BA, and everyone else and the reason wasnt cost as it wasnt the cheapest. As a Plat, I wanted the miles and I wanted the service that QR provides.

EY needs the codeshare to be successful at DFW given the competition. I think they will get that ironed out. QR, on the other hand, doesnt need the codeshare to be successful at DFW because they have the OneWorld tie up.

In my opinion, EY could have done much better in North America by:

1) Partnering with DL instead of AA
2) Launching ATL and DTW instead of DFW
3) Developing ties with the Skyteam carriers in Europe

However, they seem very happy with AA and AA with them. So, given a codeshare, EY can make DFW work.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
TUSAA
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:20 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 125):
That has to be the longest block time of any airline in the world.

Im not sure if it's the actual flight or crew duty time, heard something about it at HDQ today.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting iah59 (Reply 127):

Yes, I do. That's why I made that statement.

Do you know how many go from DFW or the growth rates of the Indian market from both.

I do, you obviously don't.

Allow me to get specific with you:

IAH-India and DFW-India are similar in size

BOM: IAH-BOM is a LOT larger than DFW-BOM. Almost to the tune of 50% larger. IAH-BOM also makes up for the bulk of growth in the IAH-India market. IAH-BOM makes up 45% of the TOTAL IAH-India market.

DEL: IAH-DEL and DFW-DEL are almost identical in size.

HYD: DFW-HYD is a LOT larger than IAH-HYD. Same deal, about 50% larger.

MAA: DFW-MAA is quite a bit larger than IAH-MAA. About 25% larger.

COK: IAH-COK is slightly larger than DFW-COK. About 15-20% larger.

BLR: DFW-BLR is about 20% larger than IAH-BLR.

CCU: Neither are very large in size, but IAH-CCU is slightly larger.

So basically the same stuff Ive always been saying. IAH-India is more concentrated in BOM and DEL and DFW-India is more scattered.

Before you call names, I would suggest getting informed. The above are FACTS! They aren't up for discussion, they aren't "I saw a bunch of Indians on a plane, so therefore…", or any of that other garbage.

[Edited 2014-08-04 18:08:56]
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
iah59
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:57 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:14 am

Don't need your facts when I got it in reality Lol. I work in the airline industry deal with these passengers daily from United to the whole terminal D.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6834
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 119):
Gulf carriers isnt so much to make money of their airlines,

I'd buy that about QR and EY. Both of them are govt owned, but EK is privately owned and was made to make money, and they are very good at that!

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 119):
but a 787-9 might be the way to go long term.

I agree with this. Will the 787s be more on the premium side? I think the A350 would be a good performer here as well.

Quoting iah59 (Reply 129):

iah59, I'd listen to LAXdude. He's no slouch!   
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:42 am

Interesting (but not surprising) that DFW-HKG can't carry cargo. I wonder does CX carry cargo on JFK-HKG or ORD-HKG? And if not - it's interesting that no one questions CX and whether those routes are viable for them? So why can't AA get the benefit of the doubt? I for one almost irrationally want DFW-HKG to succeed. It's such an out-of-the-box route (at least by old AA standards). Quite a bold move for AA. I almost can't see how it won't work, although as others mentioned a 787-9 might be best for it.

Now if only we had some guarantee that LCC Dougie won't further "enhance" AA's already mediocre service, especially compared to CX.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:45 am

Quoting iah59 (Reply 129):
Don't need your facts when I got it in reality Lol. I work in the airline industry deal with these passengers daily from United to the whole terminal D.

First off, what the hell are you even disputing? I never said IAH to India was a small market nor that it didn't generate significant demand to other markets outside of BOM and DEL. But IAH-India is more centered on BOM and DEL than DFW. That is a FACT. Its not debatable. You need access to IATA O&D data to get it which I can tell you don't have.

From the posts of yours Ive read, it seems you look at boarding passes and baggage tags and assume you know the market.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6834
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 131):
Interesting (but not surprising) that DFW-HKG can't carry cargo.

CX cargo flies to DFW so they probably take care of that.
Also interesting to note they fly daily(?) 748 into IAH as well.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Beardown91737
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:56 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:11 am

This is more of looking at the population distrbution in the US, instead of the Northeast feeling envious of Texas.

Basically a good portion of the US population is concentrated between the Washington to Boston corridor, and the Mississippi from STL to MSP. From any point in that area to Asia, the shortest route will go northwest over the Canadian border. So SEA has the best geography for and Asian gateway in the northern 48, followed by DTW, MSP, ORD, DEN, SLC, and SFO. However, there is enough mass in the DFW area, and areas to the east, to support some Asia service.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 45):
Large Chinese population in Plano, Richardson (North Dallas) to the extent that the police departments have Chinese speaking officers available), Indians in Plano, and also throughout the area, Koreans in Northwest Dallas. . . . This is a pretty diverse area and pretty homogenized.
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 97):
I've worked in the IT/Civil Engineering field for eight years now all in the DFW Metroplex. And, I've yet to come across one company in my industry that doesn't have several Asians and Asian Americans on staff; at some companies they make up a near majority of the local office.

If you work in the IT industry, it will seem like a larger population than it actually is. Frisco is not full of Indian doctors, it is mostly white, and most residents are not doctors. There is a noticeable concentration of Asians in the Plano-Frisco-McKinney Suburboplex, but not comparable to SoCal, NoCal, or NY/NJ. DFW is just a smaller place than the Northeast and the Southwest.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 133):
If you work in the IT industry, it will seem like a larger population than it actually is. Frisco is not full of Indian doctors, it is mostly white, and most residents are not doctors. There is a noticeable concentration of Asians in the Plano-Frisco-McKinney Suburboplex, but not comparable to SoCal, NoCal, or NY/NJ. DFW is just a smaller place than the Northeast and the Southwest.

Fair, but I dont think anyone tried to compare DFW to LA, NY, or SF.

In terms of Asian population (total numbers, not concentration), DFW's peers are Boston, Seattle, Houston, San Diego, and Philly.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
Pbb152
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:57 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:31 am

iah59 you are way out of your league. You expect people to take you seriously because "you work in the airline industry" but present no facts. Nobody takes you seriously on this site. Your whole MO is to act like people should take you seriously because you work at the airport. Doesn't mean jack squat. Quiet down because you add no value here.
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 134):


Fair, but I dont think anyone tried to compare DFW to LA, NY, or SF.

In terms of Asian population (total numbers, not concentration), DFW's peers are Boston, Seattle, Houston, San Diego, and Philly.

Well then what is your definition of gateway? In order to be a gateway, you need to have some type of advantage either from a demographic (ie. NYC, LA, SF) perspective or geographic perspective (ie. SEA). DFW has neither. Will it support Asian service - yes. Will it be a gateway - no.

[Edited 2014-08-05 18:50:00]
 
LAXdude1023
Topic Author
Posts: 5873
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DFW As An Asian Gateway - Is It Plausible?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 136):
Well then what is your definition of gateway? In order to be a gateway, you need to have some type of advantage either from a demographic (ie. NYC, LA, SF) perspective or geographic perspective (ie. SEA). DFW has neither. Will it support Asian service - yes. Will it be a gateway - no.

Thats a fair question and I agree.

I was referring to AA's recent expansion more so than anything else. DFW is AA's Asian gateway for now. Now if we include all Asia service among all carriers, obviously DFW falls short of quite a few airports.

My overall question was two fold: is it plausible to support the service AA has given DFW as well as the service the ME3 are bringing in. Im actually more optimistic about the ME3 than the DFW-PVG flight.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos