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ANA787
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DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:30 pm

 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:32 pm

Geee ... and people gave UA such an earful when they canned NRT-HKG a while back
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:34 pm

Also definitely impacted by the weakness of the Yen.

I can understand the need to eliminate NGO-MNL as it seems redundant with the existence of a NRT-MNL flight, but NRT-HKG is a bit more shocking to me given that this will leave DL's only HKG connection to SEA.
 
rwsea
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 2):

Also definitely impacted by the weakness of the Yen.

I can understand the need to eliminate NGO-MNL as it seems redundant with the existence of a NRT-MNL flight, but NRT-HKG is a bit more shocking to me given that this will leave DL's only HKG connection to SEA.

It doesn't really add anything different than before though. All the cities that had service to NRT - MSP/ATL/JFK/PDX/DTW, etc. also have nonstop service to SEA. This won't add any new double-connects ...in fact, it will probably make lots more single-connections possible.
 
airindia787
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:46 pm

With the end of NRT-HKG, what beyond NRT flights are left? Looks like TPE, MNL, BKK, SIN, GUM, SPN, and ROR. Am I missing any?
 
skymiler
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:50 pm

FWIW my son and I did NRT - HKG last month in Business Class on the 767 and it was one of the best flights I have ever had in 40+ years from a service point of view (including flights on the old Swiss Air and BA Concorde)

Flight was about 95% full, but that does not indicate yields or profitability
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tlecam
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 2):
NRT-HKG is a bit more shocking to me given that this will leave DL's only HKG connection to SEA.

So DL flew NRT-HKG on a 763 and SEA-HKG was on a 332 when it was announced. Depending upon which model of the 763, it's either a modest upgauge or it's about flat in terms of seats.

I wonder where DL sends the 763.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:13 pm

Regarding HKG:

Right now the only single connection markets:
- Those with nonstop to NRT
- Those with nonstop to SEA
Everyone else is a double-connect over a domestic gateway & NRT, or domestic hub & SEA

Eliminating NRT-HKG:
-Pushes the current single-connect markets (current gateways with NRT service) to single-connects over SEA
Everyone else is still a double connect, but will push connections over a domestic hub & SEA.

BNA-DTW-NRT-HKG -> BNA-SEA-SEA-HKG

Prior to nonstop SEA-HKG; SAN-LAX-NRT-HKG -> SAN-SEA-HKG

JFK-SEA-HKG
 
lhpdx
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:19 pm

I wonder if Portland-Tokyo next on the chopping block?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:31 pm

With all these Asian connections being cut in NRT i think its safe to assume we will see Delta reduce NRT seat numbers from America eventually.

Kind of sad to see NRT have this happen, it once looked like such a northwest hub
 
hoya
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
JFK-SEA-HKG

I wonder how this will affect UA and CX/AA, particularly on the east coast. To make the SEA-HKG flight, anyone from the east coast choosing to double connect will have to take the first flight out of their airport to a DL hub.

Isn't this in a way ceding the HKG market on the east coast to UA (ORD + EWR) and AA/CX (ORD + JFK)?
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Devilfish
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 2):
I can understand the need to eliminate NGO-MNL as it seems redundant with the existence of a NRT-MNL flight, but NRT-HKG is a bit more shocking to me given that this will leave DL's only HKG connection to SEA.
Quoting airindia787 (Reply 4):
With the end of NRT-HKG, what beyond NRT flights are left? Looks like TPE, MNL, BKK, SIN, GUM, SPN, and ROR.

It seems everyone does not consider MNL a good connection point especially for business...but what if DL is mulling SEA-MNL-BKK/KUL/CGK?

May be low-yield, but that would make better use of the lounge they put up in T3.  
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rwsea
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):
To make the SEA-HKG flight, anyone from the east coast choosing to double connect will have to take the first flight out of their airport to a DL hub.

Unless they were in JFK, DTW, or ATL, they would have had to double connect anyway - just at NRT rather than a domestic hub.
 
alfa164
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
BNA-DTW-NRT-HKG -> BNA-SEA-SEA-HKG

That might be true...if there were any BNA-SEA flights. There aren't.   Despite the SEA buildup, there are still pleant of cities with no direct service there.
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
Eliminating NRT-HKG:
-Pushes the current single-connect markets (current gateways with NRT service) to single-connects over SEA
Everyone else is still a double connect, but will push connections over a domestic hub & SEA.

BNA-DTW-NRT-HKG -> BNA-SEA-SEA-HKG

Transiting via SEA vs. NRT (via either DTW or ATL) = 5 less hours in BusinessElite, 5 more hours in Domestic First. To many business travelers, DL will suddenly become a much less appealing option vs. UA, even AA and some interline tickets.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 13):
That might be true...if there were any BNA-SEA flights. There aren't. Despite the SEA buildup, there are still pleant of cities with no direct service there.

Yeah mean BNA-DTW-SEA-HKG

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 14):
Transiting via SEA vs. NRT (via either DTW or ATL) = 5 less hours in BusinessElite, 5 more hours in Domestic First. To many business travelers, DL will suddenly become a much less appealing option vs. UA, even AA and some interline tickets.

That is very true.


Frankly, DL seded any chance at capturing much of the East Coast HKG premium traffic when they ended DTW-HKG.
 
UALFAson
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
BNA-DTW-NRT-HKG -> BNA-SEA-SEA-HKG

Just a typo, but on the "after" itinerary, I think you meant BNA-DTW/MSP-SEA-HKG

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):
Isn't this in a way ceding the HKG market on the east coast to UA (ORD + EWR) and AA/CX (ORD + JFK)?

Certainly to people who can get to the NYC area easily and then take the Polar nonstop routes, which likely includes a lot of high-value, time-is-money travelers.

Example: JFK-SEA-HKG blocks at 22:15 hours of flight time, including layovers, versus EWR-HKG nonstop at 16 hours on UA.

For other destinations, I think it depends on DL's frequency to a domestic hub and how long of a domestic layover you'd have to endure.

Example: BNA-MSP-SEA-HKG blocks at 22:35 versus BNA-ORD-HKG at 19:40 on UA.

Example: DCA-DTW-SEA-HKG blocks at 21:50 versus DCA-ORD-HKG at 18:45 on UA.

Example: ROA-DTW-SEA-HKG blocks at 25:35 versus ROA-ORD-HKG at 19:50 on UA.
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alfa164
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:16 pm

How long before DL closes one of the two Sky Clubs at NRT? Any bets?
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Tdan
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:21 pm

This has needed to happen for a very long time.

The reductions and route rationalization makes sense. DTW-NGO needed a 744 initially for the legs and front-cabin capacity. NGO-MNL was flown solely to fill up Y. With the reduction in front cabin demand, it makes sense to dg to the A332. NW had a dinosaur in its NRT hub and the creation of the SEA hub duplicates the need for NRT beyonds which have likely not been profitable on a segment basis in a very long time. Would not be surprised if the remainder of the beyonds sans GUM/SPN/ROR are moved to SEA and the current US-NRT routes are further reduced in gauge. It will never be able to replicate UA at SFO, but it will serve a similar network purpose for DL.

By my count, the Pacific reductions pop 4 full 744 shells and in addition to the JFK-NRT/TLV reductions, that's 7 744s that can be retired.
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):
Isn't this in a way ceding the HKG market

DL is a small player in HKG with the historic single flight to NRT.

If anything the nonstop to the states is better market placement for them imo than the NRT tag.

So I dont see them ceding anything, just moving the pieces around to something maybe more attractive.
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bchandl
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):

This thought process is incredibly redundant.

Can you please name one mainland (Hawaii is irrelevant to this conversation) US airport with NRT n/s service that doesn't also have SEA n/s service?

No, because their are none.

bchandl
 
AA767LOVER
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):

Probably very minimal. Why fly a 332 when one can fly 77W on CX. If DL made a smart move with their JFK hub, a 77L nonstop to HKG will make the route more competitive.
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redzeppelin
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:55 pm

Is there any possibility that the NRT drawdown could lead to a thawing in the DL-KE relationship? And maybe even some cooperation between them?
 
ANA787
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:32 am

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 8):

I'll take a guess that PDX-NRT and NRT-PVG are next on the chopping block.
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting ana787 (Thread starter):
Not surprised at all

   I never understood the rationale behind NGO-MNL in the first place, since NGO is a smaller market than Tokyo and only offers feed from DTW and HNL. Certainly no surprise to see NRT-HKG gone now that SEA-HKG has come online. I expect NRT-PVG to be cut sooner or later as well, there is absolutely no need for it anymore now that DL is operating nonstop DTW-PVG and SEA-PVG services.

Even though SEA-KIX failed (again), I wonder if DL would ever try a SEA-NGO service. If NGO can support two nonstop services to Europe - not just LH to FRA (an automotive/industrial express route akin to DL's DTW-NGO) but also AY to HEL (I should think very little O&D, but a strategic transpolar gateway between all of Europe and Asia), surely some kind of nonstop service between NGO and the West Coast is possible. If not DL/SEA, then perhaps UA could resume SFO-NGO with a much more appropriately configured, sized, and efficient 787-8 aircraft.
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max999
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 21):
If DL made a smart move with their JFK hub, a 77L nonstop to HKG will make the route more competitive.

I disagree, it would be a dumb move. It's clear to DL they can't compete with CX on JFK-HKG and it would be a money losing proposition. It would be smart for DL to stay out of this market.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):
Isn't this in a way ceding the HKG market on the east coast to UA (ORD + EWR) and AA/CX (ORD + JFK)?

Not really. Capacity overall isnt changed. It isnt as though UA and CX have excess capacity that can be filled with former DL passengers.
 
RobertS975
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 11):
May be low-yield, but that would make better use of the lounge they put up in T3

The lounge in MNL T3 will be a contract lounge, not a Sky Club. And for the record, virtually all the staff in the old MNL Sky Club were contract employees, not DL emplyees.
 
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 21):
Why fly a 332 when one can fly 77W on CX.

Many people, myself included, would much prefer a 2-4-2 A332 than even a 3-3-3 77W like CX's. Less chance of a middle seat (25% instead of 33%) and the 2-abreast window seats are nicer for two people travelling together, or even for anyone who prefers window seats with only one person to disturb instead of two when you want to leave your seat.
 
steex
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 24):
I never understood the rationale behind NGO-MNL in the first place, since NGO is a smaller market than Tokyo and only offers feed from DTW and HNL.

The rationale was always pretty clear, I thought - MNL can easily fill a plane to/from the eastern seaboard with fairly low yields, and NGO can provide high yield automotive O&D to/from DTW but isn't really enough volume to fill a large widebody. Marry the two together and you've got adequate yield provided by DTW-NGO and enough bulk to fly XXX-DTW-NGO-MNL.
 
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting hoya (Reply 10):
Isn't this in a way ceding the HKG market on the east coast to UA (ORD + EWR) and AA/CX (ORD + JFK)?

Pretty much. From the eastern half the of the U.S., DL now has very limited and inconvenient options to fly to HKG. Without DTW-HKG offering a single connect, it wasn't very convenient to double connect through NRT, but DL offered multiple hubs to get through. Now the options to double connect are few and uncompetitive. Cutting NRT-HKG is a huge blow to the DL Pacific network.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
Pretty much. From the eastern half the of the U.S., DL now has very limited and inconvenient options to fly to HKG. Without DTW-HKG offering a single connect, it wasn't very convenient to double connect through NRT, but DL offered multiple hubs to get through. Now the options to double connect are few and uncompetitive. Cutting NRT-HKG is a huge blow to the DL Pacific network.

But a huge gain to the bottom line. Most of the NRT-Asia flying is a huge financial drain. DTW-HKG was a big loser. Sometimes you just decide that you can't compete in certain markets.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:44 am

This is good news for SEA-HKG however. The flight should benefit from increased connecting traffic flow. I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually upgauged to a 77E.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:58 am

Will we eventually see Dtw become a domestic hub with all pacific going through Seattle?
Or will the Dreamliner when it gets here be right for dtw
 
UALFAson
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 33):
Will we eventually see Dtw become a domestic hub with all pacific going through Seattle?

Not unless DL plans on routing more Asia-bound traffic through ATL as well, and I'm not sure that makes much strategic or operational sense.

For DL cities in the Northeast and Midwest without nonstops to SEA, taking a one-stop connection through DTW is going to be faster than a double-connection through SEA. Eliminate DTW and they'll send a good chunk of that traffic to competitors through ORD and NYC.

See my Reply 16 above for an example of how this happens with DL service to HKG.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:48 am

Pdx-nrt is gonna have to prove it can be profitable off o&d now. Alot of the connections are leaving.

sea now has the connections and they have a link.

I bet you Ana or jal will jump in real quick though with a 787.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:52 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 20):
This thought process is incredibly redundant.

Can you please name one mainland (Hawaii is irrelevant to this conversation) US airport with NRT n/s service that doesn't also have SEA n/s service?

No, because their are none.

bchandl

The point of my post was to illustrate that cutting NRT-HKG is a big nothing in the grand scheme of things as it is already highly inconvenient to fly from anything that doesn't have nonstop to SEA to get to HKG.

DL basically abandoned all but price-sensitive passenger when it dropped DTW-HKG from the Eastern half of the US.

As others have said, they can't always be everything to everyone.
 
davidho1985
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:01 am

DL's HKG-NRT flight is famous for O&D traffic in Hong Kong,
as the flight is the 1st flight to Tokyo and the latest flight back to Hong Kong with competitive price (compared to CX),
so very popular for Hong Kong-er when having trip to Tokyo.

May be DL is not very interested in such O&D traffic.
 
YLWbased
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 37):
May be DL is not very interested in such O&D traffic.

These O&D traffic are mostly low yielding and doesn't help much to keep the route profitable, it happens few times a year that J fare is lower than Y fare, that shows you how low yielding this route really is.

If the connecting traffic no longer exist, there is no way to spare a metal sitting half a globe away from home serving low yielding routes that doesn't general much profit.

YLWbased
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bchandl
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:36 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 36):
The point of my post was to illustrate that cutting NRT-HKG is a big nothing in the grand scheme of things as it is already highly inconvenient to fly from anything that doesn't have nonstop to SEA to get to HKG.

Point is though, anyone that could get to HKG with one layover (NRT) can still get to HKG with one layover (SEA). Nothing really changed.

(I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say, too. If so, then we're on the same page   )

Personally, I'd rather have my layover in SEA. I rather start with the short flight and end with the long one. Spending 12 hours to get from US East Coast-TYO then having another 5 hours to HKG would be terrible.

bchandl
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 35):
Pdx-nrt is gonna have to prove it can be profitable off o&d now. Alot of the connections are leaving.

   So what happens to NGO? That's a lot of flow that is no longer on the plane--downgrade to 777?

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
Geee ... and people gave UA such an earful when they canned NRT-HKG a while back

   3 daily nonstops to HKG and a lot more to NRT and a.net was like that woman on the floor in HKG throwing a tantrum
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lutfi
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 37):
May be DL is not very interested in such O&D traffic.

Yep, but with HK Airlines now flying to Tokyo, the fares aren't worth it for DL. I can find a ticket with HK Airlines for just about any date for 400 USD.
 
S75752
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:11 am

These flights count as 5th freedom, as do some of the UA HKG/NRT-Asia ops, right?
I can't help but be rather curious how these came about in the first place.
 
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:47 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
So what happens to NGO? That's a lot of flow that is no longer on the plane--downgrade to 777?

332.
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davidho1985
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:52 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 38):

These O&D traffic are mostly low yielding and doesn't help much to keep the route profitable, it happens few times a year that J fare is lower than Y fare, that shows you how low yielding this route really is.

If the connecting traffic no longer exist, there is no way to spare a metal sitting half a globe away from home serving low yielding routes that doesn't general much profit.

YLWbased

I agreed the yield is low

Quoting lutfi (Reply 41):
Yep, but with HK Airlines now flying to Tokyo, the fares aren't worth it for DL. I can find a ticket with HK Airlines for just about any date for 400 USD.

HK Express, not HK Airlines fly the route (although all within HU Group), but HK Express is a LCC
 
YLWbased
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:04 am

Competition for HK-Japan market is intense, multiple carriers are operating on most routes and lots of them on wide-bodies. I'm thinking would it be possible for DL to extends its HKG destined long haul flight to other Asian destination, given that they already have 5th freedom in HKG.

HKG-South Asia IMO is a hugely undeserved market without effective competition, fares are high and most of those flights high yielding, maybe DL can server some South Asia routes out of HKG?

YLWbased
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jetblastdubai
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:27 am

Does NRT even have a slot shortage anymore with the recent discontinuation of several flights by US carriers and relocation by several European carriers to HND?

AA (JFK), UA BKK, DL (HKG/SFO)
 
RedChili
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RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:34 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 39):
Personally, I'd rather have my layover in SEA. I rather start with the short flight and end with the long one. Spending 12 hours to get from US East Coast-TYO then having another 5 hours to HKG would be terrible.

That plan works great if you only need to fly one way, e.g. NYC-SEA-HKG. Unfortunately, if you want to return to the USA, you'll end up in the opposite situation, with the short flight in the end, e.g. HKG-SEA-NYC.
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bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 47):

True. Not many people likely flew the route in different routings on their R/T flight before this change though.

Most flew East Coast-TYO-HKG-TYO-East Coast.

East Coast-SEA-HKG-TYO-East Coast was probably not a popular choice, although probably more ideal.

Also, going back to America isn't as bad.

ASIA-SEA/West Coast leave mid-morning/noon timings and then arrive in America in the early AM same day. When you arrive, have a layover and then fly a transcon it is late in the day on that same day.

Better timing than the other way.

To each their own I guess.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18063
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: DL Axes NRT-HKG, NGO-MNL

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:09 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 48):
Most flew East Coast-TYO-HKG-TYO-East Coast.

East Coast-SEA-HKG-TYO-East Coast was probably not a popular choice, although probably more ideal.
Quoting RedChili (Reply 47):
That plan works great if you only need to fly one way, e.g. NYC-SEA-HKG. Unfortunately, if you want to return to the USA, you'll end up in the opposite situation, with the short flight in the end, e.g. HKG-SEA-NYC.

The fare would have to be pretty cheap to *not* take one of the five daily nonstops between NYC and HKG.
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