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KarelXWB
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Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:56 pm

Airbus will sign a deal to go ahead with an assembly line for its long-awaited A330-300 regional aircraft in China.

Source:
http://atwonline.com/manufacturers/airbus-build-a330-regionals-china

Now the question is, how many will Beijing order? Perhaps someone with a subscription could read the whole article.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:03 pm

These are A333CEO.. not NEOs.. correct?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 1):
These are A333CEO.. not NEOs.. correct?

Fully correct. However, the CEO line will close in 2019, so the outfit center will eventually take NEO's as well.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 1):
These are A333CEO

Correct.   
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Airbus will sign a deal to go ahead with an assembly line for its long-awaited A330-300 regional aircraft in China.

Is this a complete FAL, or the rumored outfitting center where planes built in TLS will be flown to have their interiors installed?



Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Now the question is, how many will Beijing order?

Didn't China already order like 70 A330-300s? Maybe this deal is related to them?
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Didn't China already order like 70 A330-300s?

China ordered 27 A330s earlier this year, those are not regional models.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...hina-airbus-idUSBREA2P1HZ20140326.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:29 pm

Is the interior the only thing that's different on a "A330-300 regional" vs a regular A330-300?
Huff
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:51 pm

Are the production lines in Europe not capable of building these frames to be made in China?

With the huge backlog Airbus has, they could afford to hold out for more margin and local work only.

Does anyone know what the strategy behind this is?

Ruscoe
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 6):
Is the interior the only thing that's different on a "A330-300 regional" vs a regular A330-300?


Based on what was quoted at the Airbus announcement, it will be a new Weight Variant and will include cockpit functionality such as dual head-up display and the latest navigational systems. The cabin will also be pre-wired for IFE, broadband wireless internet and LED mood lighting.

[Edited 2014-07-31 14:59:26]
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 7):
Does anyone know what the strategy behind this is?

I believe it's an outfitting centre as opposed to an assembly line. I also believe this is tied into the proposed deal for China to order a metric boatload of A330Rs and, as a piece of strategy, is pretty smart. This deal will help fill the A330 line at current production rates until the A330neo is ready to ramp up.

Only recently, Leeham ran an article pointing out the production shortfall for Airbus for the transition from A330ceo to neo (as well as Boeing for the 777 to 777X).
http://leehamnews.com/2014/07/27/far...sic-a330ceo-production-gap-issues/
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Now the question is, how many will Beijing order?

I don't see them agreeing to build the line unless China agrees to buy. China wants the technology to build airplanes and this is the best way to 'spy' and learn how to build the facilities and process the aircraft (even if it is just interiors).

tortugamon
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
I believe it's an outfitting centre as opposed to an assembly line. I also believe this is tied into the proposed deal for China to order a metric boatload of A330Rs

My thoughts were that perhaps Airbus want China as a major component supplier in the future.

With Boeings agressive ongoing cost cutting and efficiency improvements, I believe that Airbus see their biggest threat, not as the aircraft Boeing may produce, but at what price. Boeing are getting better margins than Airbus, and Airbus has made one of their Corporate goals to increase the margins.

Ruscoe
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:49 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 11):
My thoughts were that perhaps Airbus want China as a major component supplier in the future.

I expect China is already a major component supplier to Airbus.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:36 am

More info here:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...us-a330s-to-be-assembled-in-china/

Key points:

> Airbus will soon announce a production line in Tianjin
> Production will start in 2016
> An order for at least 180 A330s is expected
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:36 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 11):
With Boeings agressive ongoing cost cutting and efficiency improvements, I believe that Airbus see their biggest threat, not as the aircraft Boeing may produce, but at what price.

The problem is that the US fed is devaluing the dollar, and planes are sold in dollars. Producing more outside the eurozone is thus a necessity for Airbus, and its CEO says it regularly to try to influence Merkel into agreeing to a devaluation of the euro, without success so far.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:57 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 7):
Does anyone know what the strategy behind this is?

It was strange how there were whispers of a very large A330 order around the time of the Chinese Presidential visit to Europe earlier this year and it all went quiet as the NEO launch @ Farnborough approached. The CEO is a better beast for intra-Chinese and near-Asian flights, and once the NEO was born, they went back to the Chinese to talk about their requirements. A330CEO production in China was obviously a huge factor in the NEO decision.

I suspect the 'strategy' for Airbus is the acknowledgment that 50% of 180 is better than 100% of not a lot.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:33 am

So they will have a CEO line going after 2019. So this answers what will happen to the A330F and the MRTT. No hurry to "NEO" them just yet.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 16):
So they will have a CEO line going after 2019.

So, the way things are shaping up, are we likely to be talking about the A330 becoming the best-selling widebody of all-time in 15 years time ?

Not bad for an old girl put out to grass by many...........
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
More info here:

So like the A320 line, this will be a low-volume line tasked to building A330s for the domestic market (though I understand that the TJN line will now start building A320s for non-Chinse customers).

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 17):
So, the way things are shaping up, are we likely to be talking about the A330 becoming the best-selling widebody of all-time in 15 years time?

If the A330neo is as popular as some believe, it very well could as it is at 1342 orders as of the end of June so it is closing in on the 747 and 777 families.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
So like the A320 line, this will be a low-volume line tasked to building A330s for the domestic market (though I understand that the TJN line will now start building A320s for non-Chinse customers).

It seems that way. However, I have a hard time believing that Airbus would duplicate an entire A330 FAL in China. It's more complex than an A320. Let alone building it by 2016, that's a short timeframe.

If we speculate an assembly rate of 3 jets per month, the line would produce A330 regional jets for the next 200 / (3 * 12) = 5 to 6 years years. That's a good deal I guess.

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 17):
Not bad for an old girl put out to grass by many

And it ain't over till she sings  

[Edited 2014-08-01 07:18:20]
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trex8
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:20 pm

How are they going to get the major airframe assemblies to China. Won't why need more Belugas?
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
How are they going to get the major airframe assemblies to China. Won't why need more Belugas?

Beluga's have not enough range. The A320s are shipped over sea, I guess they could do the same for the A330.

Still, I think it will be an outfit center only. Hard to believe that Airbus would duplicate an entire FAL, only to last for several years.

[Edited 2014-08-01 07:30:09]
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
Still, I think it will be an outfit center only. Hard to believe that Airbus would duplicate an entire FAL, only to last for several years.

That is what I am inclined to believe, as well, as that is what was originally being discussed to my recollection.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 10):
I don't see them agreeing to build the line unless China agrees to buy. China wants the technology to build airplanes and this is the best way to 'spy' and learn how to build the facilities and process the aircraft (even if it is just interiors).

tortugamon

I think Beijing sees developing and having a commercial aviation industry and needed strategic asset... much like the US and EU do. Also, there is the prestige... and then of course there is the lucrative value of being a producer in the industry. It is true that opening production lines in China could be an own goal at some point. But China will acquire the tech one way or another anyway... so might as well make some money off that reality. Besides, the A B duopoly can't continue forever.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:43 pm

Article has been updated. As expected, the plan is for an A330 cabin equipping and aircraft painting facility in TJN instead of a final assembly line.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:27 pm

I am not at all a fan of this. I am rather for passing on an order if in doubt than building a factory in China. It will just turn out to be self crippling in the long run.

Besides, there is no need to do this as long as the Yuan is linked to the Dollar.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
Article has been updated. As expected, the plan is for an A330 cabin equipping and aircraft painting facility in TJN instead of a final assembly line.

As I suggested up-thread. This makes a lot of sense if the market for the A330R is mainly China/Asia.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 25):
I am not at all a fan of this. I am rather for passing on an order if in doubt than building a factory in China.

Seriously, you'd pass up a massive order for A330s? As has now been clarified, it's a completion centre, not a FAL. So the A330Rs will still be built in TLS, then flown to TSN for cabin completion and painting. Looking at the bigger picture, if this offset is what it took to seal a deal for "up to 200" A330Rs, then it's a small price to pay for just about guaranteeing they can run the A330 production line at its current rate until the neo comes along.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 25):
It will just turn out to be self crippling in the long run.

How so?
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 6):

Is the interior the only thing that's different on a "A330-300 regional" vs a regular A330-300?

As far as I am aware, the interior will only feature forward and aft galleys. They will also have derated Trent 700 EP2, which are not in service yet. I suspect the paint work is also being planned for, the current plant can handle an A330.

For local purchases, the main benefit in this deal is the aircraft are bought from the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre, as they are purchased locally, they do not incur Chinese import taxes. For Airbus this would be a good strategic move, they will have additional capacity then in TLS for the A350 and A320neo ramp up.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 25):
I am not at all a fan of this. I am rather for passing on an order if in doubt than building a factory in China. It will just turn out to be self crippling in the long run.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 26):
How so?

If it had been a full Final Assembly Line that actually assembled A330-300s from the component level, it would have given the Chinese aviation industry the practice of building a widebody airframe just as the current A320-200 assembly line has given them the practice of building a narrowbody airframe.

I believe that experience directly led to the COMAC C919, which is quite similar to an A320. As such, I could have foreseen that COMAC launch an A330-sized "C818" down the road.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
I believe that experience directly led to the COMAC C919, which is quite similar to an A320. As such, I could have foreseen that COMAC launch an A330-sized "C818" down the road.

They are already planning it....
http://aviationweek.com/singapore-20...a-china-plan-joint-widebody-effort
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
I believe that experience directly led to the COMAC C919, which is quite similar to an A320. As such, I could have foreseen that COMAC launch an A330-sized "C818" down the road.

Not really, the C919 started as a result of the ARJ21, before the A320 FAL was setup. The A320 FAL employees are locked into working only in that plant as part of the training deal. I would be surprised to see the C919 in service by the end of the decade, building and certifying aircraft is a lot harder that is appears. The problems are on both sides, COMAC dont have a history, they are working things out as they go, and the regulator has not certified anything like this before.The ARJ21 was launched back in 2002, first flight was 5-6 years ago, still not in-service after completing around 5000 hrs in flight testing to date.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
I believe that experience directly led to the COMAC C919, which is quite similar to an A320. As such, I could have foreseen that COMAC launch an A330-sized "C818" down the road.

Is final assembly of pre-stuffed sections ever likely to be the constraint on their indigenous industry? They've been doing that for years. If the ARJ21 (let alone the C919) is anything to go by, design and certification capability is what's holding them back at the moment. Then managing a supply chain and setting up a global spares/support network. I really don't get why people here seem to think the Taijin FAL is giving away the crown jewels.

The C919 shares some features with the A320, as it does with the MS-21 and 737NG. It's not a reverse engineered A320, which, if they'd wanted to do, they could have just bought one.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 7):

Airbus direly needs this order to keep the A330 in production and keep the supply chain in contract.
There is no option that keeps the A330 viable without this bridge to the NEO.

Quoting scbrriml (Reply 9):

Nitpick, this isn't a large enough order to bridge at full production. The line will still be slowed. But since it will happen with A350 production, layoffs are avoided..

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):

Thank you for the updates.

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 17):

The best selling widebody will be a 3 way race between the 777, 787, and A330 in 15 years. I would have put the A350 if production were to be doubled. If the 787 is indeed brought up to 168 per year... That is more than a hundred more per year than the sixty per year Airbus hopes to sustain A330 production at.
There are 120 more 777s already in the wild than A330s and the 777x has a new wing and truly custom engines with some tech not in the T7000.

There is a chance the A330 could be the #1 widebody. But if I take off the patriot hat and put on my enthusiast's hat, I realize it will be one of these three frames in 2030, but as of now it could be any of the three as the best selling widebody.

Future as yet undefined PIPs and willingness to adapt production to demand will determine the winner. I personally will cheer on all 3 (or 4) frames. As none have Pratt's.  


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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
I would have put the A350 if production were to be doubled. If the 787 is indeed brought up to 168 per year... That is more than a hundred more per year than the sixty per year Airbus hopes to sustain A330 production at.

Well, Airbus is now aiming at 12 instead of 10 A350s per month by 2018.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...uction-with-nippier-processes.html

And they would push to 14 per month in the next decade, so that's really close to the 787.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:03 pm

With 12 A350 and 10 A330 monthls poduced in Toulouse, the 16 positions they have for the outfit might be not enough. So outfitting 4 or so per month in China is a smart move, saves them a lot of money.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Nitpick, this isn't a large enough order to bridge at full production.

Actually, it is.

At 10 per month, the current A330 backlog runs into 2016. So with 200 new orders, they are only 20 orders short to add exactly two years production (110 per year). And there will be a few more orders in 2015, 2016 and 2017. So full production should be bridged until the NEO enters service in Q4 2017.

Now, Airbus said they will aim at 7 to 8 A330neo's per month. So I guess they want to avoid a roller coaster: instead of going from 10 (CEO today) => 6 (CEO 2016) => 8 (NEO 2018), they can now smoothly reduce from 10 (CEO today) => 8 (NEO 2018).
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:20 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
It seems that way. However, I have a hard time believing that Airbus would duplicate an entire A330 FAL in China. It's more complex than an A320. Let alone building it by 2016, that's a short timeframe.

I suspect outfitting only..since the cost of a FAL or even a full section manufacturing line could never be recovered from a 200 a/p order. and a slow rate would exacerbate the costs substantially.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 31):
I really don't get why people here seem to think the Taijin FAL is giving away the crown jewels.

It never was and Airbus certainly weren't the first to do it.

China's had access to Western aircraft since the 707. They've had plenty of time to reverse engineer a whole range of aircraft. They really haven't go very far. That's not to say they won't make significant strides in the future

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Nitpick, this isn't a large enough order to bridge at full production.

I didn't do much analysis, but if you add 200 (I appreciate it might be "up to 200") to the backlog at current production rates, that's very nearly four full years of production. That must get them very close to the point where A330neos are starting to roll off the line.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:13 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
China's had access to Western aircraft since the 707. They've had plenty of time to reverse engineer a whole range of aircraft. They really haven't go very far. That's not to say they won't make significant strides in the future

It's not the reverse engineering that the Chinese want. They want to learn how to put them together and manage the project and be able to build high quality product at a good price.

What then?

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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Is this a complete FAL, or the rumored outfitting center where planes built in TLS will be flown to have their interiors installed?

As per the original link, it seems like an outfitting & painting center. Which is no small thing, but not a full FAL. I don't see the business sense of a complete FAL, even with a large a/c order.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 34):
With 12 A350 and 10 A330 monthls poduced in Toulouse, the 16 positions they have for the outfit might be not enough.

good point, it seems that we had all missed this one. Given the available (shared) outfitting positions in TLS, and the launch of A330NEO guaranteeing sustained production in the long run (and therefore no margin for the A330 to transfer outfitting positions to the A350), it was clear that Airbus had to build new outfitting facilities to sustain high A330&A350 rates. The surprise is that this expansion is not being built in TLS, but in China. Which means Airbus is expecting a lot of A330 orders from this market (possibly on the condition that Airbus transfer part of their production). It's also a further nail in the coffin to any hope of A330 production in Alabama...

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 7):
Are the production lines in Europe not capable of building these frames to be made in China?

Of assembling the green a/c, yes. Of outfitting A330's and A350's at a high rate (remember that they share that part of the FAL), it would seem not.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 7):
Does anyone know what the strategy behind this is?

Well, let's wait, and if we see 200 A330R orders from China by end of the year, that's the answer to our questions.

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
For local purchases, the main benefit in this deal is the aircraft are bought from the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre, as they are purchased locally, they do not incur Chinese import taxes.

Good point, something I didn't think about. So Airbus can offer more competitive pricing on these a/c.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:29 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 39):
It's also a further nail in the coffin to any hope of A330 production in Alabama...

Losing the A330 the tanker competition was the final nail IMO.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 39):
a further nail in the coffin to any hope of A330 production in Alabama...

I think that would only happen were the USAF to order its next tranche of tankers from Airbus
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
For local purchases, the main benefit in this deal is the aircraft are bought from the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre, as they are purchased locally, they do not incur Chinese import taxes.

The A330s will still have to be 'imported' from France as green frames, does that not count?

[Edited 2014-08-03 05:24:37]
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 42):
The A330s will still have to be 'imported' from France as green frames, does that not count?

The question is if that legally and tax-wise counts as an imported airplane. That can make all the difference in the world. Zeke made an excellent point there.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:48 pm

All A330s in China (ariound 150 to date) bar a couple of dozen for China Southern have RR engines. Is this then also going to be a huge windfall for Rolls?
 
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EPA001
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 44):
Is this then also going to be a huge windfall for Rolls?

It very well could be. Which would please us both for sure.  
 
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malaysia
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Now the question is, how many will Beijing order?

Well my next question would be, how many will Beijing copy?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting malaysia (Reply 46):
how many will Beijing copy?

Huh?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting malaysia (Reply 46):
Well my next question would be, how many will Beijing copy?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
Huh?

I suppose the logical answer is, they only have to copy one...     

...but I don't think that's what he meant.  
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:15 pm

They had the actual licence to make the RR Spey engine from the mid 70s and it took them till the beginning of the 21st century to put it into full production. Things have definitely improved since then but I wouldn't hold my breath they will be able to make anything to compete with A or B for decades.

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