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777Jet
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:28 pm

Will the said 330s come with a 'Made in China' tag?  
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
For local purchases, the main benefit in this deal is the aircraft are bought from the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre, as they are purchased locally, they do not incur Chinese import taxes

I have some exposure to Chinese tax law for capital projects and the picture isn't so clear.

Import duties will be paid on the content imported from Airbus SAS to Airbus Tianjin. I expect this tax will be paid by one of the Airbii entities (whoever is acting as importer) with the cost passed on to the purchaser.

For a "domestic" delivery to a Chinese client, VAT will also apply to the value added in-country. The VAT rate can actually exceed the import duty rate. There are some circumstances which allow the end user to obtain tax credits from the Chinese government and waive these taxes. In other instances, the model proposed by Airbus can increase overall tax liability.
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varig md-11
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:30 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 51):
Import duties will be paid on the content imported from Airbus SAS to Airbus Tianjin. I expect this tax will be paid by one of the Airbii entities (whoever is acting as importer) with the cost passed on to the purchaser.

I would go farther than you: if Airbus finds the good "arrangement" with China, the unpainted and without-cabin planes will be imported from TLS and described as " unfinished and/or partly assembled manufactured item to be finished and/or completed in China"

These dispositions allow a low customs rate (much lower than if you applied taxes to separate parts) and even no customs rate at all if is for a delivery abroad...especially if Tianjin delivery hangar is roofed in a "special economic zone" where common customs code is suspended

A fitting and delivery center is OK for me but, as an EU taxpayer who has financed Airbus in the past, I wouldn't be in favor of a FAL as we would sell cheap the goose that laid golden eggs....the A320 FAL is already a bad idea   
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zeke
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 51):
Import duties will be paid on the content imported from Airbus SAS to Airbus Tianjin. I expect this tax will be paid by one of the Airbii entities (whoever is acting as importer) with the cost passed on to the purchaser.

For a "domestic" delivery to a Chinese client, VAT will also apply to the value added in-country. The VAT rate can actually exceed the import duty rate. There are some circumstances which allow the end user to obtain tax credits from the Chinese government and waive these taxes. In other instances, the model proposed by Airbus can increase overall tax liability.

Should be 2% for the green aircraft inbound. The requirement for manufacturing in China is not a request, it is a Central Government requirement. Boeing have also a local "joint venture" it had to establish to be eligible for sales.

The FAL and outfitting is essentially putting low IP roles into China where labor rates are lower. Joining prestuffed sections, or putting seats into a cabin it still leaving the more sensitive manufacturing processes close to home.

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 52):
A fitting and delivery center is OK for me but, as an EU taxpayer who has financed Airbus in the past, I wouldn't be in favor of a FAL as we would sell cheap the goose that laid golden eggs....the A320 FAL is already a bad idea  

The high value work is still being done in outside China, and the EU governments are all still getting their royalties on every A320 or A330 sold through the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:43 am

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 52):
A fitting and delivery center is OK for me but

A delivery center is already present in TJN, they only need a fitting center with couple of hangars.

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 52):
as an EU taxpayer who has financed Airbus in the past, I wouldn't be in favor of a FAL as we would sell cheap the goose that laid golden eggs....the A320 FAL is already a bad idea

European tax payers have more things to worry about than a few Airbus planes.

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
and the EU governments are all still getting their royalties on every A320 or A330 sold through the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre.

 checkmark 

[Edited 2014-08-04 00:44:03]
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varig md-11
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:49 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
EU governments are all still getting their royalties on every A320 or A330 sold through the Airbus Tianjin Delivery Centre.

Well I hope EU gvts still get their royalties!

Our concern in EU is that there were "leaks" in Tianjin A320 FAL in the past: workers left the plant and never came back once they had learnt how to assemble stuff...only to re-start a position in a China state funded "laboratory"

That's why a delivery center is OK, but train non EU workers on how to assemble a EU designed wide body is not smart.

Lots of industries have nearly disappeared from here to Asia (from electronics to fridges to medication base molecules...), we can't afford to spill all the beans with an emplyment rate at 10%
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 55):
Our concern in EU is that there were "leaks" in Tianjin A320 FAL in the past: workers left the plant and never came back once they had learnt how to assemble stuff...only to re-start a position in a China state funded "laboratory"

It's safe to add this theory to the list of people who claim to be abducted by aliens.

China knows perfectly how to assembly an aircraft. The first ARJ21 was assembled long before the A320 plant in TJN was activated. Their issue is certifying these aircraft according to Western standards, leaking info from the A320 FAL is not going to resolve certifying issues.

[Edited 2014-08-04 02:58:28]
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zeke
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:09 am

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 55):
Our concern in EU is that there were "leaks" in Tianjin A320 FAL in the past: workers left the plant and never came back once they had learnt how to assemble stuff...only to re-start a position in a China state funded "laboratory"

About 1 in every 5 employees in Tianjin are expats. The local employees that are there are bonded to the company, and earn a very good income with "European" working conditions. People don't leave that to work at a "China state funded "laboratory"".
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varig md-11
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 56):
It's safe to add this theory to the list of people who claim to be abducted by alien

I see you're very smart.

First you're comparing apples and pears: the ARJ21 is old tech, the Chinese used assembly methods from the MD-80 which they were licensed to make for a while. So they know how to assemble aluminum panels from that era.
And it's been 6 years since the 1st flight.....the plane is old before it is delivered

And NO, they don't know how to assemble huge composite panels which we are talking about when discussing on the A330. I am not saying they are not able too, for now they don't have the tech

Quoting zeke (Reply 57):
People don't leave that to work at a "China state funded "laboratory"".

So you say.

I quoted an article from "our" financial times (sorry in French) which mentions the contrary

http://www.latribune.fr/journal/edit...ite-de-leurs-salaries-chinois.html

There was a leak at Tianjin FAL states the newspaper: a handfull of chinese engineers went to other companies and one precisely went to COMAC.

Also, some new trained "assemblers" never showed up again just after training complete, that was in the news at the time too.

You probably never heard of it as China keeps the internet clean from these stories in its sphere of influence, but it raised concerns here in the EU at the time and Airbus has been asked to take steps to avoid these leaks by parliament
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StTim
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:03 pm

I am sure workers from Mobile will go to Charleston or Seattle. It is a fact of life. Design engineers are mobile and already move around competing aircraft companies.

This is nothing new.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 59):
I am sure workers from Mobile will go to Charleston or Seattle. It is a fact of life. Design engineers are mobile and already move around competing aircraft companies.

This is nothing new.

Yes, except the consequences won't be the same: Boeing knows how to deal with composites and advanced systems, they don't need crucially Airbus techs for for launching themselves on the global market.

Have you heard of huge ordes for the ARJ21? maybe there's a reason
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 58):
And NO, they don't know how to assemble huge composite panels which we are talking about when discussing on the A330. I am not saying they are not able too, for now they don't have the tech

1. It's not happening anyway, it's an A330 completion center, so we can chill.
2. I think you're underestimating the state of completion the various sections arrive at the FAL in. They don't start in Toulouse with sheets of Aluminium, rivets and sticky back plastic.
3. Re. "Composite Panels" - I think you're confusting the A330 with the A350?

I'm sure the A320 line in Taijin has given them insight into the final assembly process, but that isn't the reason Chinese indigenous civil airliners aren't taking significant global marketshare. Like I said before, the hurdles are design and certification, industrialization, supply chain management and a global support network - all while competing with the big two on cost (even with subsidies), who have effectively commoditised the narrowbody market and are doing the same to the widebody one.
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 58):
And NO, they don't know how to assemble huge composite panels which we are talking about when discussing on the A330. I am not saying they are not able too, for now they don't have the tech

You seem to be confused. The assembly of the A330 is closer to that of the MD-80 than it is the A350.

So, besides the fact they're not actually getting an A330 FAL and that even if they did, the A330 is old-school aluminium, what exactly are we supposed to be worried about?   
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Actually, it is.

At 10 per month, the current A330 backlog runs into 2016. So with 200 new orders, they are only 20 orders short to add exactly two years production (110 per year). And there will be a few more orders in 2015, 2016 and 2017. So full production should be bridged until the NEO enters service in Q4 2017.

Now, Airbus said they will aim at 7 to 8 A330neo's per month. So I guess they want to avoid a roller coaster: instead of going from 10 (CEO today) => 6 (CEO 2016) => 8 (NEO 2018), they can now smoothly reduce from 10 (CEO today) => 8 (NEO 2018).

You assume too rapid a transition to the NEO as the engines will be the long lead time item, Airbus will not have the time to build NEOs (and their engines) at risk for that transition.
They need more CEOs for 2017, 2018, and some of 2019. Unfortunately, they are more than 20 short.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
That must get them very close to the point where A330neos are starting to roll off the line.

Agreed, but there must be a bridge. Airbus is contractually required to provide the 'back end of the bell curve' to vendors in the ramp down or else pay vendors penalties. Airbus also ramped up production which is either maintained for 3 years or vendors, such as my employer, must be compensated (and vendors always sue for that compensation). Also, the new engines will not achieve full production instantly. It typically takes 18 months of production to achieve that ramp if Airbus pays for the ramp expenses or they undergo a slower ramp.

There is also risk. Airbus must have CEOs in the backlog in case the NEO certification is delayed otherwise the production line is stopped *or* Airbus does as Boeing did with the 787 and produce frames and RR engines at risk (the risk is obviously mostly with the engines).

I stand by my comment that Airbus does not, even with the Chinese order, have enough A330 orders for the transition to the NEO.

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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 48):
I suppose the logical answer is, they only have to copy one...

...but I don't think that's what he meant.

Yes I was referring to reverse engineering it.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting malaysia (Reply 64):
Yes I was referring to reverse engineering it.

I really don't see how installing seats, lavs & galleys, then painting the plane helps China reverse-engineer an A330. A330s have been in service in China for years - there was nothing to stop them ripping one apart years ago.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 57):
People don't leave that to work at a "China state funded "laboratory"".

There are certainly a few chinese nationals who've left Airbus (in europe) to join AVIC.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 58):
And it's been 6 years since the 1st flight.....

Which is mainly related to certification issues, not assembly problems. Comac has little to no experience with certifying an aircraft according to Western standards and you won't learn that in TJN.

[Edited 2014-08-14 08:29:27]
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:51 pm

I think in China it is a problem for many companies that their staff, as soon as they are well trained, go of to the next company where they get more cash. As long as qualified people are badly needed and companies pay a lot to get them, this will continue. I have the impression that they do not have the tie to their company as we often have it here in Europe. So some engineers leaving Airbus is a no-brainer. Its normal and it had to come.Just my little experience with China.
 
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:32 am

Well everything else is made in China, so why not the aircraft we fly in! And lets face it, China's counterfeiting laws are almost non existent and the ones they do have are not enforced by their own government, I mean they copy everything from Louis Vuitton's to BMW's so wont be long and they will be flogging off fake A330's.. having been given the blue prints for them!

So yes this a very good idea.....  
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:03 am

Quoting a36001 (Reply 69):

Have you actually read the thread? China will not be assembling A330s - 'green' A330s will be flown from TLS to China for completion. China will install seats, galleys & lavs, then paint the plane ready for delivery to customers.

If that results in China buying 180-200 A330Regional, then it seems like a very good idea to me.   

If China wanted to 'copy' an A330, they've already had access to them for a long time.
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Based on what was quoted at the Airbus announcement, it will be a new Weight Variant and will include cockpit functionality such as dual head-up display and the latest navigational systems. The cabin will also be pre-wired for IFE, broadband wireless internet and LED mood lighting.

WVs have nothing to do with cockpit fitments or cabin outfits. That is a customer request.
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PW100
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:08 am

Quoting a36001 (Reply 69):
Well everything else is made in China, so why not the aircraft we fly in! And lets face it, China's counterfeiting laws are almost non existent and the ones they do have are not enforced by their own government, I mean they copy everything from Louis Vuitton's to BMW's so wont be long and they will be flogging off fake A330's.. having been given the blue prints for them!

Well, first of all, they won't be assembling them, just putting the furniture in.

Second, for assembling them you won't be needing a single blue print, just assembly instructions (which were and are being engineering and drafted mostly in Toulouse). Do not worry, Airbus won't be handing over any significant amount of blue prints.

Thirdly, most assembly instructions are pretty much available to each and every operator; it's called an Overhaul Manual. It's part of the package you get/buy when you purchase a commercial airliner. While the manufacturer is responsible for certification and initial airworthiness, most operators take on responsible for continued airworthiness. Amongst many others, you will be needing Maintenance Manuals, Overhaul Manuals and Illustrated Parts Catalogs in order to maintain airworthiness.

And even if they would be able to copy the airframe and all its systems and subsystems, by the time they have that reversed engineered and translated into a production system, they will consumed at least a decade (if not more, judging by ARJ21 progress). By that time the copy will have become pretty obsolete, and they can start all over again

While you can fairly easy copy a designer consumer item, a 200 million dollar piece of engineering excellence is something totally different.

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PhoenixVIP
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting a36001 (Reply 69):

That's completely ridiculous and stupid comment to make about China. It is not in the interest of our government to have counterfeit goods to be sold in our market and there has been many crackdowns in regards to that. It's actually gotten to the point where society laughs and looks down upon those who decide to go ahead with counterfeit car kits to match BMWs or use fake LV bags etc. Hence there are less and less of these out and about.

Copying an A330 could have been achieved well before the 2008 Olympics when CA ordered them back in 2005. Why bother trying to copy one now? If China wants to prove its great, it would use experience with a modern A350 or 787 aircraft.

Even by giving China all of the blueprints and data for the A330 or any other aircraft, it's hard to just copy such a piece of machinery. China has enough to do by going ahead with its new narrowbody C919 so better get that done first before getting ahead of itself.

Domestic flights such as SHA - PEK and PEK - CAN etc. can do with plenty of high density A330s so the idea to get these brought here as soon as possible, with the completion centre here, is an excellent idea that will also help boost the local economy of Tianjin.

[Edited 2014-08-16 06:46:02]
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 71):
WVs have nothing to do with cockpit fitments or cabin outfits. That is a customer request.

I am aware of that.

I was just being inclusive as to all the changes the A330-300 Regional will incorporate because that was the question that was asked.

[Edited 2014-08-16 07:30:33]
 
AngMoh
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RE: Airbus To Build A330 Regionals In China

Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting kmz (Reply 68):
think in China it is a problem for many companies that their staff, as soon as they are well trained, go of to the next company where they get more cash. As long as qualified people are badly needed and companies pay a lot to get them, this will continue. I have the impression that they do not have the tie to their company as we often have it here in Europe. So some engineers leaving Airbus is a no-brainer. Its normal and it had to come.Just my little experience with China.

I had the experience, but talking to my ex-company (whose R&D Centre in China I helped to set up), the attrition rate has dropped a lot and is now on par with other countries. One reason is that the economy is down, the other is that the income levels are significantly higher than 10 years ago so income growth has slowed significantly and changing job no longer gives you the income jump you saw 10 years ago.

Quoting phoenixVIP (Reply 73):
That's completely ridiculous and stupid comment to make about China. It is not in the interest of our government to have counterfeit goods to be sold in our market and there has been many crackdowns in regards to that. It's actually gotten to the point where society laughs and looks down upon those who decide to go ahead with counterfeit car kits to match BMWs or use fake LV bags etc. Hence there are less and less of these out and about.

People forget China is twice the size of Europe (EU) and 3x the size of the US. Just like you can not compare Greece and Germany, the same way there are huge differences within China. I have seen suppliers which are world class - in one case we needed a part made and the only company who could be the very strict quality criteria was in China, our existing suppliers in Europe could not meet the requirements - while there is complete crap too.
Remember that the first Hyundai Pony was a piece of junk and Samsung nobody heard of. Now Hyundai are good cars and Samsung Galaxy S5 is an object of prestige. China is going thorough the same transformation. For example Huawei is a world leader and from a technology perspective they are ahead of most western companies.
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