4holer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 49):
A few days ago, I sat on my front porch enjoying the late afternoon air, I looked to the sky and was not looking for airplanes. Then I saw a jet fly from on top away from me, gleaming reflections of sunlight. It wasn't hard to see. My eyes was at 40-50degrees elevation, and I noticed the aircraft at abut 70degrees elevation and about 20 degrees to the right of where I was looking.

When conditions are just right, of course visibility can be enhanced. Sun glinting or lighting up the side of the fuselage will indeed improve visibility. But like my 742, traveling just south of me and in the same general half of the sky as the sun, I'm going to have some issues. Add haze, or some clouds, and you are not going to see very well. (And I have FR24 on my phone and knew where to look.)
But I sincerely doubt that non airgeek citizens going about their business that day saw a 777 being trailed by a SU-25 in the sky that was seen in the video. Don't you?
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:30 pm

Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

After following the MH17 thread from the beginning I became aware of this document today mentioned on another forum. I don't know who is the author of this document,

Besides political ramifications this document tries to outline and depict a couple of so far known facts regarding the events causing the great tragedy of 298 innocent people killed and the resulting downfall of MH17.

Still all my prayers go out to the families who lost their loved ones.

Just a 25 page read of combined information gathered from all the reports of the last 3 weeks compiled for trying to answer the question: From where and probably by "whom" the suspected BUK M-1 missile has been fired.

Maybe some of the "swarm intelligence" will offer criticism and insights.

Here is the beef:
http://download2033.mediafire.com/rl...q64/MH17Analysis+Parts+1+and+2.pdf
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 50):
and they would have already talked about it.

Only if they are not intimidated or not patriotic enough to keep their mouth close.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 50):

Keep in mind, a Buk launch could be seen or heard in a 50km or greater radius of the launch.

Sound travels distance varies with weather condition and terrain. And like spotting an air plane at 10,000 m, would an ordinary citizen
be able to differentiate a Buk launch vs a multiple rocket launch vs and artillery barrage in a war zone?

Would an experienced soldier recognize the difference? Probably yes, but those soldiers are probably not going to talk.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
nasula
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 50):
Keep in mind, a Buk launch could be seen or heard in a 50km or greater radius of the launch. That is a very large area.


Yes. So large that I don't believe anyone seriously believes that you can hear it 50km away. Heck, in normal outside noise scenario I can't hear the noisiest aircraft (fighters) from the airport that's 15 km away. So for me at least, it sounds nigh impossible to hear a BUK launch from 50km. I'd suspect the noise alone would make any personnel closish to the launch site deaf.

Seeing? 50 km is an awfully long distance. The horizon is about 5km and if you're on a 30m tower, your horizon is still only 20km away. Once the missile is above the horizon, yes you'll see it, but will it produce a big enough contrail to be noticed?

So please, if you make outlandish claims (hearing from 50km away), please provide some reference material to go with it. Otherwise it starts to sound like Mao's feats of swimming in his latter years and puts you awfully close to your own words "it seems the usual suspects [tailskid, alpha164, DLX, etc] are expressing opinions as though they are facts."

Regs
 
mika
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 49):
An exit would of an exploding missile would not have that size exit wound.

All the warhead needs to do is to structurally compromise the skin and some of the outer load-bearing structure for the aerodynamics to do the rest.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the war head detonated by a proximity sensor, and all it ever does is spread shrapnel around itself, not at all penetrating the aircraft (like say a bullet)? Hence there would be no entry nor exit damage on the aircraft at all, only shrapnel damage (which is clearly seen in several of the photos that are around).
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 49):
Quoting NAV30 (Reply 7):But the only evidence we have is a photograph of the 'exit wound' of a missile, which appears to have hit the starboard side of the cockpit and exited on the port side. Only shrapnel damage, and probably a 'warhead exit,' visible on the photograph?
An exit would of an exploding missile would not have that size exit wound.

We're close to agreement, mandala499 mate. I, for one, can't readily work out what sort of missile would have caused that sort of damage at that height.

But there is no denying that that is the sort of damage that the photograph shows? A 'not overly-powerful' missile hitting the cockpit area on the starboard side, and exiting on the port side - very probably without exploding? Even a few pounds of TNT would have caused a lot more exit damage than that shown in the photographs?
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting mika (Reply 55):
Yes. So large that I don't believe anyone seriously believes that you can hear it 50km away.

If you read carefully you will see I said "seen OR heard".

Someone was claiming that there was a Buk launch site near a town. Obviously, a Buk launch is going to be noticed over a very large area. Yet no one has come forward and said they saw it.

I thought these articles were an interesting take on what is happening.

http://thecrux.com/controversial-pos...about-russia-and-the-new-cold-war/

http://thecrux.com/ron-paul-what-you...obamas-latest-sanctions-on-russia/

Another article which highlights some irregularities in the US - Ukraine relationship.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...raine-biggest-gas-producer-burisma


I think the US interest in the Ukraine boils down to one factor and that is that Russia is moving away from pricing trillions of dollars of oil in US dollars and this threatens the US dollar reserve currency status. There is no other logical explanation.

[Edited 2014-08-07 07:23:11]
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 56):
We're close to agreement, mandala499 mate. I, for one, can't readily work out what sort of missile would have caused that sort of damage at that height.

But there is no denying that that is the sort of damage that the photograph shows? A 'not overly-powerful' missile hitting the cockpit area on the starboard side, and exiting on the port side - very probably without exploding? Even a few pounds of TNT would have caused a lot more exit damage than that shown in the photographs?

I am neither a military missile warhead nor physics expert.

Wikipedia states a 154 lbs Frag-HE warhead for the BUK M-1 missile.

For me it is reasonable that most of the damage of a starboard explosion (from a missile approaching from starboard beneath) is "absorbed" by the lower cockpit part which inside is tightly filled with all the pilots instruments and necessary technology. Furthermore the kinetic energy at cruising speed and even the aerial conditions at FL33 could affect the final impact of the exploding warhead.

On the other hand the explosion can surely exit through the port side window section which is the weakest part (on the starboard side too) there.

The reported damage on the port side tip of the wing section looks consistent with this.

I did not notice any pictures from the the starboard cockpit section so far, are there any?
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:47 pm

I have read the stuff kindly referred to by our new fellow member MicFish (how did you manage to join in 1969, I am wondering?)

Obviously, the analysis was written by a person(s) who support the view that MH17 was downed by UAF.

The arguments appear to be quite viable. So I would like to hear opinions of the majority of A-Netters who used to blame the rebels.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
D L X
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 45):
It seems the usual suspects [tailskid, alpha164, DLX, etc] are expressing opinions as though they are facts.

Huh?

Which of my posts is opinion expressed as fact?
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
Huh?

Which of my posts is opinion expressed as fact?

Here are some.

From Part 3:

Quoting d l x (Reply 11):
That is an absolutely incredible video. That has to be it! Look at how crazy that thing is flying, with all those very tight turns. I think we're either looking at the plane after it was hit, or the missile hitting the plane.

The video is nothing to do with MH17.

From Part 6:

Quoting d l x (Reply 1215):
]It wasn't the Ukraine.

We don't know who it was, or even if it was shot down yet. We only have theories.
Really need an investigation before jumping to conclusions, i.e. stating something as a fact when it is an opinion.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:58 pm

Well, MicFish.

The report you referred us to - clearly drove the whole community into a stall.

I wished my emergence as a writing member would trigger such a reaction.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 57):

I think the US interest in the Ukraine boils down to one factor and that is that Russia is moving away from pricing trillions of dollars of oil in US dollars and this threatens the US dollar reserve currency status. There is no other logical explanation.

It is exactly the cause of all on-going events. At least we in Russia take it this way.
A national state (or a group of national states) questioning the Bretton Woods' system existence itself (!) should be ready to face the consequences.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 61):
We don't know who it was, or even if it was shot down yet. We only have theories.

We have more than theories; we have the Russian-backed "separatist" commander taking credit for downing an airplane on the 17th of July; he was obviously proud to have done that, until he discovered that plan was, in fact, a cvilian airliner.

In any court of law - and certainly in the court of public opinion - an admission of guilt is a good way to get past the "theory" claim.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 50):
The point is that if a Buk was used, there would have been people that saw and heard it, and they would have already talked about it.

It was in a combat zone, obviously - and someone did talk about it. The "separatist" commander, for starters. You countine to proclaim theat there is "no evidence", when the evidence is clear. Ignoring it won't make it go away.
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 51):
But I sincerely doubt that non airgeek citizens going about their business that day saw a 777 being trailed by a SU-25 in the sky that was seen in the video. Don't you?

While I say seeing the 777 would be extremely easy even for the non-avgeek, I doubt that one would see the SU-25 trailing it.
And yes, I saw that 777 relatively humid and hazy air with some cloud cover but not near where the aircraft was.
https://scontent-a-sin.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10492126_10152372954843889_4914614562353577933_n.jpg

*I saw the jet before I pulled out my FR24 after it disappeared to see what it was and turned out to be MH122*

Quoting mika (Reply 55):
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the war head detonated by a proximity sensor, and all it ever does is spread shrapnel around itself, not at all penetrating the aircraft (like say a bullet)? Hence there would be no entry nor exit damage on the aircraft at all, only shrapnel damage (which is clearly seen in several of the photos that are around).

Proximity sensor, yes. It does not necessarily stop the non-warhead parts of the aircraft from entering the aircraft.
However, I have my doubts that a "simple" exit would is what we're seeing.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 56):
We're close to agreement, mandala499 mate. I, for one, can't readily work out what sort of missile would have caused that sort of damage at that height.

Close agreement? I doubt it.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 56):
But there is no denying that that is the sort of damage that the photograph shows? A 'not overly-powerful' missile hitting the cockpit area on the starboard side, and exiting on the port side - very probably without exploding? Even a few pounds of TNT would have caused a lot more exit damage than that shown in the photographs?

Not surprisingly, your assumptions are way off. I don't care if you were doing AA duty in the military. The missile is a fragmentation warhead on a proximity fuse. It is not designed to enter the target aircraft and explode. It is designed to come "close enough" and explode and throw shrapnel in all directions (including the nearby aircraft).
Again, we haven't seen enough of the forward lower fuselage skin (which seems to have peeled off the aircraft prior to ground impact) to determine where in relation to the aircraft did the missile explode.

Sorry, the missile going through and not exploding theory of yours doesn't make the grade in my books.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 57):
If you read carefully you will see I said "seen OR heard".

Doesn't matter if you said "seen and heard" or "seen or heard", from 50km away, you won't hear the BUK launch.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 57):
Someone was claiming that there was a Buk launch site near a town. Obviously, a Buk launch is going to be noticed over a very large area

But not 50kms away when everyone were going about their normal daily business. A 5m diameter white-grey smoke trail that fades and dissipates isn't going to be easily seen from 50km away with the naked eye... Above 10km away, it's going to be very difficult. Above 20km's literally impossible. Especially with clouds/haze...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 66):

Sorry, the missile going through and not exploding theory of yours doesn't make the grade in my books.

But consider the radar sensor at the nose of the missile. If there are power supplies or battery there, then the exploding war head could cause those units to become a large projectile.

While the airframe is robust, the skin is not, and can be penetrated by a flying LRU going at MACH 2 . . . 3?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 62):
Well, MicFish.
The report you referred us to - clearly drove the whole community into a stall.
Normally I don't read stuff as wordy as that piece, but to please you I waded through enough of it to find that its hypothesis is that the distance from the proposed launch site to the shootdown point was beyond the range of a BUK missile with a 35km range.

But upon examination of the actual facts, the math and the graphics in the article are wrong.

The reality:
Missile Launch site as given from the Telegraph story: 47°58'51.65"N 38°45'23.36"E.
Likely point of missile impact: 48° 8'7.22"N 38°29'58.26"E

This distance is 26 km., well within BUK range.

I would like to make a point here; above I raised the question of whether the operators of this particular BUK system were tricked into, or setup to, shoot down an airliner by their superiors (or maybe by one particularly malicious individual.) I notice that the details we are examining here support that premise.

We can see that the BUK TELAR that engaged MH-17 fired its missile at close to the earliest physical opportunity to do so; it disn't catch the 777 as it was almost passing out of range, or even at a midpoint of the effective range; the BUK TELAR clearly engaged MH-17 at close to the earliest possible engagement point.

This means that the BUK radar was almost certainly locked on to MH-17 before it came within range of the missile. Working backwards from here, we can surmise that the BUK radar was searching the particular part of the sky which belonged to airway L980 looking for a target. We can make this assumption from the fact that the TELAR radar is a tracking radar, not a search radar, and as such it has a very narrow view of the sky both in azimuth and in elevation.

It is possible of course that the acquisition of MH-17 was just "luck", the operators were blindly searching to the west and came across MH-17 by chance,

But it is also possible that the dupes operating the TELAR were told where to set up the launcher and were told which direction to scan for targets. If one wants to accept that MH-17 was targeted by random chance, they also have to consider that the location chosen for the launcher which was within a few kilometers of the intersections of airways; M70, L69 and L980 was also an act of "chance."

I really don't think that such an event would have been orchestrated by people high up in the Russian military, but I do see it as more and more as likely that some underling, maybe a colonel, set this event up intentionally.

It's really too bad that Putin is taking such a hard line, the way things are going we will probably never know.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:58 pm

https://www.google.com/maps/place/47%C2%B058'51.6%22N+38%C2%B045'23.4%22E/@48.2073097,38.6326352,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

I am sorry. But the given coordinates are exactly as in the report.

Okay. It's late here. I hope some other people will check the factual part.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
they also have to consider that the location chosen for the launcher which was within a few kilometers of the intersections of airways;
Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
but I do see it as more and more as likely that some underling, maybe a colonel, set this event up intentionally.

Thanks for the analysis. This start to make sense for this strategy sleuth.

So there is a definite air way. If I were the Ukrainians, I would use the airways to mask my airplane movement even though my planes won't be able to reach that altitude. I do it enough times that the Rebels starts to catch on and points a SAM system in that direction.

Not here to blame anyone for the shoot down. But the more information you guys dig up, the more sense I can make on how this tragedy happened even though no one deliberately wanted it to happen.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 69):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/47%C2%B058'51.6%22N+38%C2%B045'23.4%22E/@48.2073097,38.6326352,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

You have the correct launch site. You must be pretty far off in your assumption of the point of missile burst.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 70):
I do it enough times that the Rebels starts to catch on and points a SAM system in that direction.

The shootdown of MH-17 was the first indication that the "rebels" were using anything other than MANPADs, which pretty much eliminates your theory if I'm not mistaken.

The earlier shootdown of the transport aircraft was attributed to air to air action, not SA-11s.
 
nasula
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 57):

Indeed I did read your "or". Good attempt at disguising the Doubt you were trying to instill. 50 km is too far for sound anyway and a smoke trail at 50k? Not something you are likely to notice very easily. Probably not even at 15 unless you're looking for it.
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 71):
You have the correct launch site. You must be pretty far off in your assumption of the point of missile burst.

Thanks for your analysis tailskid. We should recheck this when the actual position of the presumed missile hit has been published.

The black boxes have been analyzed for days now, yet no evidence or information has been released to the public.

Besides that I am sure that with all the US/NATO radar/satellite equipment covering the east ukrainian war zone at the day of the incident, the US intelligence surely knows exactly where the missile was started from and which BUK systems have been actively operating.

Yet nothing substantial has been presented since 3 weeks.

So I am not in a position to question the black box investigations nor the publication policies of any US intelligence service, maybe the relatives of the victims are.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting MicFish (Reply 74):
We should recheck this when the actual position of the presumed missile hit has been published.

The exact location of the burst is probably unknown, I used a hypothetical point from the Paris Match discussion, I don't speak French or I might have quibbled a bit with their hypothetical position (it is about 3 miles off the centerline of L980) but it's probably pretty close to the actual location. Exactly what is the location you are assuming?

Quoting MicFish (Reply 74):
The black boxes have been analyzed for days now, yet no evidence or information has been released to the public.

Air accident investigations never release the cockpit voice recordings, so you'll have a long wait for that. They have released information from the data recorders indicating a sudden loss of cabin air pressure; there wouldn't be much more that that to be expected.

Quoting MicFish (Reply 74):
Besides that I am sure that with all the US/NATO radar/satellite equipment covering the east ukrainian war zone at the day of the incident, the US intelligence surely knows exactly where the missile was started from and which BUK systems have been actively operating.

Where do you think this NATO radar is located? The site is beyond the range of ships in the Black Sea, the closest NATO territory is a tip of Turkey about 450 miles away, the next closest potential site for NATO radar would be in Poland or Hungary - about 700 miles away. A surveillance satellite may have picked up some signet, but that will never be released to the public in our lifetimes and it probably just captured the time of the event, not the exact location.

Quoting MicFish (Reply 74):
So I am not in a position to question the black box investigations nor the publication policies of any US intelligence service, maybe the relatives of the victims are.

The BUK launcher was about 26 km away from the point of shootdown: well within range. Your black box issues are just a red herring.
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
The exact location of the burst is probably unknown, I used a hypothetical point from the Paris Match discussion, I don't speak French or I might have quibbled a bit with their hypothetical position (it is about 3 miles off the centerline of L980) but it's probably pretty close to the actual location. Exactly what is the location you are assuming?

Remember the AF 447 3D visualizations up from cruising altitude down to sea level? I do not know/remember if those visualizations have been compiled from ACARS messages or the final FDR data, but - if readable - all this data is recorded on the FDR. There will be no "hit by missile" record but the moment and the exact location of the inflight breakup will surely be determinable. And this information is crucial for many further assumptions and conclusions.

To be honest, I have no idea which location to assume, but I surely know where to look for the exact data: FDR

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
Air accident investigations never release the cockpit voice recordings, so you'll have a long wait for that. They have released information from the data recorders indicating a sudden loss of cabin air pressure; there wouldn't be much more that that to be expected.

Again referring to AF 447, most - if not all - of the pilot conversation has surfaced, but I don't know if they are mentioned in the final report. Though we are assuming the MH 17 cockpit has been blown away by a missile warhead, it maybe still interesting to know if there were any unusual events or pilot conversations recorded before.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
Where do you think this NATO radar is located? The site is beyond the range of ships in the Black Sea, the closest NATO territory is a tip of Turkey about 450 miles away, the next closest potential site for NATO radar would be in Poland or Hungary - about 700 miles away. A surveillance satellite may have picked up some signet, but that will never be released to the public in our lifetimes and it probably just captured the time of the event, not the exact location.

It is known that since the beginning of the ukraine crisis, NATO watches Ukraine and Russia very closely:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine...sians-closely-with-awacs-1.2629411

It is reported that on July 17th two AWACS have been on regular duty surveying ukraine (and probably russian regions too) operating from the german NATO base Geilenkirchen.

Furthermore on July 17th the NATO exercise in the black sea ended.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...mania-drills-idUSKBN0FM1I020140717
"The navy exercises BREEZE 2014 successfully concluded," a Bulgarian defense ministry spokesman said. The Romanian Navy said exercises involved commercial traffic monitoring, reaction to asymmetric threat warnings, anti-submarine warfare and artillery firing.

Not to mention any of US intelligence satellites surely positioned to closely monitor the ukraine war zones.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
The BUK launcher was about 26 km away from the point of shootdown: well within range. Your black box issues are just a red herring.

Let me put it this way: The data from the FDR revealing the actual breakup position of MH17 is worth and capable to verify your assumption. This was all I was saying in:

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
Quoting MicFish (Reply 74):
We should recheck this when the actual position of the presumed missile hit has been published.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting MicFish (Reply 76):
I have no idea which location to assume,

Then what's your point? I entered this conversation because you were claiming that the shootdown occurred beyond the range of a SA-11, which is wrong and unsupported. Now you're saying that you have no point of view on the distance traveled by the SAM.

Quoting MicFish (Reply 76):
I surely know where to look for the exact data: FDR

Which channel of data would you use from the FDR to determine the exact location of the plane at any given point in time?
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 78):
you are jumping to the conclusion that it was a Buk operated by separatists, when it could have been a Buk operate by Ukranians or shot down by an air to air missile, or less likely a bomb on board. You seem so sure of all the "facts" there is no need to investigate anything. We should just ask you.

There is no question that MH-17 was brought down by a BUK from a frontal direction which could only have come from the east: separatist / Russian territory.

The shrapnel pattern to the cockpit area and the pattern of disintegration of the aircraft leaves no doubt about what brought it down. Just because you say there is a controversy doesn't mean that there is a controversy The fact that you repeat yourself often doesn't improve your logic. Your continued posting of nonsense here is just trolling. You need to get a rational argument or go away, but beating this same drum serves no purpose for you or anyone else.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 45):
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 78):
No, the separatist commander did not talk about "seeing" or "hearing" a Buk. Objectively, the evidence is far from clear.

Let's review the facts. In a post on VKontakten July 17th, Russia's largest social media site, which has since been taken down, separatist leader Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov, wrote: "In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured." The claim was posted at 5:50 pm Moscow time, shortly before reports surfaced that the Malaysian civilian aircraft, on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, had crashed in eastern Ukraine in the same area near the Russian border.

So you say "the separatist commander did not talk about 'seeing' or 'hearing' a Buk." You are right - and I never said he talked about that. He was more direct; he bragged about the plane they had shot down, without describing the weapon that had been used.

If it is your contention that he was talking about a different plane... please tell us where to find that wreckage. Until you can, it is painfully abvious that these Russian-backed thugs, thinking they were firing at a Ukrainian jet, are responsible for the loss of more than 300 innocent lives.
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 79):
There is no question that MH-17 was brought down by a BUK from a frontal direction which could only have come from the east: separatist / Russian territory.

The shrapnel pattern to the cockpit area and the pattern of disintegration of the aircraft leaves no doubt about what brought it down.

Exactly. If the reports that the tugs that did this were taking / tampering with the wreckage are true - them leaving the cockpit section shows how backwards and stupid they are because that is one vital piece of evidence. As you said, the shrapnel pattern to that area is a tell-tale sign of exactly what happened. Thank God that they did not manage to tamper with / take such an important piece of evidence...
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bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:05 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 80):
If it is your contention that he was talking about a different plane... please tell us where to find that wreckage. Until you can, it is painfully abvious[sic] that these Russian-backed thugs, thinking they were firing at a Ukrainian jet, are responsible for the loss of more than 300 innocent lives......So you say "the separatist commander did not talk about 'seeing' or 'hearing' a Buk." You are right - and I never said he talked about that. He was more direct; he bragged about the plane they had shot down, without describing the weapon that had been used.

No that is not my contention at all. As I already said, it is easy to imagine how in the circumstances, the separatists thought they were the only people who might shoot down an A/C in that area, and would therefore automatically claim responsibility for anything shot down. Their claim proves only one thing, they had no plans or intention to shoot down a civilian airliner.

If the posts are genuine then no doubt the Ukranians had seen the separatists posting before, and so could have expected that. The separatists might have fallen into that trap. The fact that the Ukranian and US media spin after the event was so slick point towards the Ukrainians rather than the separatists.

It could turn out that separatists unintentionally shot down MH17, but there is evidence that points the other way as well. I say let the investigators investigate. According to you, no need for that since you have already reached your conclusions?

You need to read this to see that things are not as clear cut as you make out. The US has been stirring up this trouble in the Ukraine for a while.
http://thecrux.com/controversial-pos...about-russia-and-the-new-cold-war/

One point to clear up is that it was the responsibility of the Ukraine to decide on what airspace is safe, ICAO and IATA are not responsible for these decisions. Clearly the Ukranians and the US were aware of the risks of a shoot down before it happened. The US because of the issuance of the "strong warning" to its own airlines, and Ukraine due to the modifications to the restricted area.

Quoting Mark787 (Reply 69):

2. in order to stage the shoot down where a specific party is to be "set up" as the guilty party, would be astonishingly difficult to execute....While it is possible to control the outcome of some situations, shooting an airliner down from the sky cannot be controlled.

The Iraq war was the result of a large scale conspiracy. The conspiracy achieved its aim of starting a war based on a false information. It only came out after the invasion that the entire reason for that war was a based on a lie. Similarly, the Gulf of Tonkin fiction involved a conspiracy, that was used to justify the Vietnam war. In between, there have been hundreds more, so conspiracies do happen, even elaborate ones, and they often work (at least in the short term).

In everday life it is rare that an outcome can be explained by an elaborate conspiracy, events are more likely the result of a stuff up, ignorance, mismanagement and so on. However, in war it is different, plans and "conspiracy" theories (if you like) are the meat of that work.

Given the evidence that the Ukraine and the US were aware of the shoot down risk. Any competent military commander or advisor in Ukraine would very quickly see the possibilities for taking advantage of the circumstances where 100's of airline were flying over the war zone. Once the options are on the table, the risks and returns and variations could be assessed. In the end, a Ukrainian plan to bring about a shoot down of a civilian airliner that could be blamed on separatists is comparatively simple and need not involve many people.

1.The Ukranians could shadow civilian A/C, expecting that an unintentional shoot down of an airliner would occur at some point and that they could turn that to their advantage. There is the question here then whether the US and Ukraine conspired to develop this plan together, or was it just the Ukranian's idea. It is possible that the US independently figured out what the Ukranians were going to do and issued the "strong warning" to their own airlines not to fly over the war zone.

2. If the separatists did not get around to shooting an airliner down, then the Ukranians might have to do it themselves. That might involve a single airborne fighter or a small missile crew on the ground. We don't know whether the US placed some constraints on this plan by for example advising Ukraine to make sure that any airliner that got shot down did not have US citizens on it. It could well have been this constraint that forced the Ukrainians to change from the first plan (where a random airliner might be shot down) to a plan where the Ukraine would choose a specific airliner and aircraft with the help of the US (i.e. by passing the pax manifests to the Ukranians).

The plan to exploit this situation is not complex, and arises naturally out of the circumstances. Yes there are risks, and they may yet prove to have been underestimated.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 102):
If we imagine that the Ukrainian Air Force was "hiding", wouldn't they do it behind an Aeroflot plane, or behind one of the many planes from other Russian airline companies?

If an Aeroflot or Russian A/C was shot down, that would put Russia in the victim role and give them "just cause". There would have been no sanctions on Russia in that case.

As many others have commented, the slick media and propaganda campaign from Ukraine and the US that started just hours after the shooting down of MH17 looked like it had been prepared in advance, like they were primed and ready to spin the story. Conclusions were reached with no information. Exactly like the lead up to the Iraq war.

It is also appears strange that it is likely that there were no pax travelling under a US passport on MH17. How many of the 800 A/C that used this airway in the last few days before the incident had zero documented US pax? This is a question that could be answered by the people with access to that information. It could turn out to be quite common, but it requires someone with access to the data to look into it.

[Edited 2014-08-07 21:12:47]

[Edited 2014-08-07 21:20:14]
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 67):
But consider the radar sensor at the nose of the missile. If there are power supplies or battery there, then the exploding war head could cause those units to become a large projectile.

Oh I agree with that possibility, but it's a lot different than a non-exploding missile going through the airplane.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
Air accident investigations never release the cockpit voice recordings, so you'll have a long wait for that.

Transcripts have often been released, especially when it's pertinent to the cause of accident.
Recordings have also been released, but only some, and it's released separately long after the accident investigation final report.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
The exact location of the burst is probably unknown,
Quoting tailskid (Reply 77):
Which channel of data would you use from the FDR to determine the exact location of the plane at any given point in time?

FMC POS, IRS 1 POS, IRS 2 POS, IRS 3 POS, GPS A POS, GPS B POS.
At least 2 of the above are fed into the FDR.
Match that with GPS Clock which can also be fed into the FDR from the GPS receivers, but usually that is sync'ed with the aircraft master clock and that gets fed into the FDR.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 78):
Buk travels at Mach 3, hence the sonic boom would draw attention from large distances, and once people looked, the smoke trail should have been visible. We could probably find the specs on launch decibel level, to calculate a range that the initial launch and missile flight could be heard. But we need to ask why at this late stage has no one mentioned hearing or seeing a Buk launch?

A sonic boom depends on the strength of the shockwave which depends on the shape of the object and the strength of the sound building up on the shockwave. Shockwaves dissipate quickly so therefore the strength diminishes by the time you reach a few kilometers, and diminish into something like "sounds normal in a (relatively quiet) war zone".

Work with the facts in hand.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 61):
We don't know who it was, or even if it was shot down yet. We only have theories.
Really need an investigation before jumping to conclusions, i.e. stating something as a fact when it is an opinion.
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 78):
In any case you are jumping to the conclusion that it was a Buk operated by separatists, when it could have been a Buk operate by Ukranians or shot down by an air to air missile, or less likely a bomb on board. You seem so sure of all the "facts" there is no need to investigate anything. We should just ask you.

We know it was a missile hit likely to the front of the aircraft (which generally rules out MANPADS or IR guided Air-To-Air, and points to radar guided surface-to-air or air-to-air missile from a side to front attack aspect), and it is consistent with the theory that a BUK was used.

The shrapnel damage extend to the forward cargo bay which large chunks shown some shrapnel damage. This rules out an onboard bomb when added with parts of the forward upper fuselage that showed signs of peeling away but also having shrapnel damage.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 82):
If the separatists did not get around to shooting an airliner down, then the Ukranians might have to do it themselves.

Well, it's either of them.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:11 am

Angus Houston just said that the searchers will be withdrawn within a few days. He says that they reckon they have secured 'most of the remains.'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-0...tors-leave-mh17-crash-site/5656820
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:19 am

Malaysia Airlines to be delisted in Govt takeover

 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11305993
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mika
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 57):
Quoting mika (Reply 55):
Yes. So large that I don't believe anyone seriously believes that you can hear it 50km away.

If you read carefully you will see I said "seen OR heard".

What the heck happened here? You're placing words in my mouth, i never wrote that!


Apart from that think the moderators need to wake up in this thread...there is a thread for the politics of this event already going, there's far too much of that same talk going on in here. This thread should be focused on the technicalities of what happened and how it happened.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:44 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 82):
Their claim proves only one thing, they had no plans or intention to shoot down a civilian airliner.

Which is not a very profound hypothesis. Most here seem to agree that it was very possibly a mistake.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 82):
If the posts are genuine then no doubt the Ukranians had seen the separatists posting before, and so could have expected that. The separatists might have fallen into that trap. The fact that the Ukranian and US media spin after the event was so slick point towards the Ukrainians rather than the separatists.

Speaking of spin.....

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 82):
The Iraq war was the result of a large scale conspiracy. The conspiracy achieved its aim of starting a war based on a false information. It only came out after the invasion that the entire reason for that war was a based on a lie. Similarly, the Gulf of Tonkin fiction involved a conspiracy, that was used to justify the Vietnam war. In between, there have been hundreds more, so conspiracies do happen, even elaborate ones, and they often work (at least in the short term).

In everday life it is rare that an outcome can be explained by an elaborate conspiracy, events are more likely the result of a stuff up, ignorance, mismanagement and so on. However, in war it is different, plans and "conspiracy" theories (if you like) are the meat of that work.

Well, then thank you for being the conspiracy theorist in the thread.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 82):
As many others have commented, the slick media and propaganda campaign from Ukraine and the US that started just hours after the shooting down of MH17 looked like it had been prepared in advance, like they were primed and ready to spin the story. Conclusions were reached with no information. Exactly like the lead up to the Iraq war.

Wow....   Frankly, some of the "post-Crimea" new members seem to be doing a fine job of being primed and ready to spin the story.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:46 am

It is quite odd: investigators are leaving the crash area. The Ukrainian army is gradually taking the area.
Is it me only who has a chilling feeling that investigators are not that interested to investigate?

Who is going to be in charge of the crash area?
This is really confusing.
I may get a report saying something like "there is not enough evidence to conclude which side launched the missile."

Nobody in the NATO/U.S./EU world cares. Sanctions are unfolding. The population is zombied and believe that "Russian Putin is responsible."

However, I would pay attention to the fact that the number of forum members repeating the narrative is clearly shrinking and doesn't exceed a dozen.
It is a positive sign.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 88):
Edit: I have to add MicFish to the other two propagandists - he shows a join date of 1969, I guess he's a real "First Class member."

When someone joins, the first day it usually says "Joined in 1969". It also does it sometimes when the forum is misbehaving.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
However, I would pay attention to the fact that the number of forum members repeating the narrative is clearly shrinking and doesn't exceed a dozen.
It is a positive sign.

This thread - unlike any other that I've read over the years I've been on a.net - is sobering in the amount of manipulation, spin, and rhetoric that is being put forth. We've seen it in some of the "fanboy" dialogues where certain members were almost certainly paid apologists for the chosen carrier or manufacturer, but this is different. This is a tragedy of historic proportions. To witness the acts of a few without (imho) conscious remorse is simply disgusting to watch unfold.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
NAV30
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:12 am

A possible new angle here:-

"MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) – The Malaysian Boeing plane that crashed in eastern Ukraine in mid-July, could have been brought down by an air-to-air missile and a cannon of the Su-25 fighter that had been “shadowing it,” The New Straits Times reported on Wednesday citing experts.

"Experts believe that MH17 flight was shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from the fighter that later finished it off with a burst of 30mm cannon fire, the newspaper has reported.

"According to the experts, if this hypothesis is true, it would explain the bullet holes in some sections of MH17’s fuselage."


http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140...Missile-Finished-Off-by-30-mm.html
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:16 am

Tailskid. I respectfully ask you to watch your language.
According to your profile, you are not a kid at all. And you joined us just this summer.

Blaming me or anybody else of trolling is unacceptable. There is no honor in doing so, a Klingon from my beloved Star Trek would say.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:21 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 93):
According to your profile, you are not a kid at all

Uh, it's "tail-skid" not "tails-kid".

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 93):
And you joined us just this summer.

So? Several ... uh ... "members" in this thread joined following the Crimea conflict. What's your point?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:27 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
The Ukrainian army is gradually taking the area.

Propaganda in Australia has it that Russia is the aggressor.And is firing in the vicinity of the investigation.


And as for the "area", well its already in Ukrainian hands, so im not sure what you me by "The Ukrainian army is gradually taking the area"

They already have it !

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
Is it me only who has a chilling feeling that investigators are not that interested to investigate?

Would you investigate while being fired at ?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
Who is going to be in charge of the crash area?
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/wo...-mh17-investigation-and-recovery-e

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
This is really confusing.

Why is it confusing ?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
The population is zombied and believe that "Russian Putin is responsible."

I can assure you, im not "zombied " whatever that means, and yes, I believe that Mr Putin and Russia is responsible
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:36 am

My point is very simple. I don't care what the guy in California is thinking of me.
However, he has no moral right to accuse me of being a troll.

The argument "my is longer than yours" (in terms of membership) is not a proof of anything.
And for that reason I referred to Tailskid (scroll up to read his nick) as a freshman here.

Yes, it is a hard discussion. Yes, it is a completely unusual case for the forum. We try but fail to avoid political attitudes - due to the nature of the case, not because of our corrupted moral - or whatever.
Stop personal bashing - that all I am asking for,
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:50 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 96):
We try but fail to avoid political attitudes

Simple. Try harder. I'm not sure why we need to keep dredging up unrelated items?

Actually, I think it's pretty clear why, but I can't control what others choose to do here.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
schwege
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:53 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 91):
When someone joins, the first day it usually says "Joined in 1969". It also does it sometimes when the forum is misbehaving.

And there's a very clear reason for that: in many non-windows systems and databases, time is measured in what is called "unixtime", ie. the number of seconds passed since Jan 1st 1970, 00:00:00 UTC. This is naturally Dec 31st 1969 in some time zones. Now, when for some reason the time value is zero (value not yet set, software bug causes it to not be read, database corrupted, you name it...), you get that suspicious date in the past. It's really common to see it all around in the computerized world if you know to look for it.

No conspiracy there, I'm afraid!
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:21 am

As I was in Malaysia 6/03 - 12/03 on business, I saw all the grief of those nice people.
It is one of reasons why I am particularly interested in this case.

Well, the Malaysians seem to be the only side which tries to push the investigators.
They are really pushing; asking hard questions.

This article reflects the moods in Malaysia.
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260

In the meantime, the Ukrainians officials are obviously losing the consistency.
Now they say the conspiracy was Russian to down the Russian pax plane from Larnaca.


http://www.voanews.com/content/nato-...ible-alliance-support/2405913.html

[Edited 2014-08-08 01:39:48]

[Edited 2014-08-08 01:43:53]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:14 am

Quoting dvautier (Reply 183):
The separatists gladly handed over the black boxes to independent agents. The separatists did their best under warlike conditions to gather up what bodies they could find. On the other hand Ukraine hid all the evidence from the control tower conversation and whatever else they had. Ukraine then made a mad charge to capture the crash site and did not allow people in. The separatists were willing to have a cease fire arrangement. Ukraine made no attempt at a cease fire but instead began grabbing more territory. Ukraine apparently does not want any of that wreckage to be salvaged for study. Ukraine’s parliament passed a resolution allowing NH and AU forces to come in and finish off the separatists. Ukraine is totally broke. It cannot feed or pay its troops. It is running out of ammunition and fuel. So it appears that it's actually the Ukrainians that may have something to hide.

Exactly.

It seems the usual suspects who apparently I cannot list (you know who you are   ) since that constitutes abuse (yeah right) are expressing opinions as though they are facts. We don't know whether MH170 was brought down by an air to air missile or a Buk or something else. Let the actual evidence speak, but with the Ukranians attacking Donetsk it looks like they don't want that to happen.
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:22 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 77):
Quoting MicFish (Reply 76):
I have no idea which location to assume,

Then what's your point? I entered this conversation because you were claiming that the shootdown occurred beyond the range of a SA-11, which is wrong and unsupported. Now you're saying that you have no point of view on the distance traveled by the SAM.

I have no idea which location (plane hit by presumed missile explosion) to assume and at the same time back it up with hard facts/evidence. So I stayed away from adding another unprovable assumption. For me - admitting my limited expertise in this field - the retrograde calculation in the document to find this position seems to be reasonable.

I did nowhere claim that the shoot down occurred beyond the range of the SA-11.

I shared a document with information about the

- flight path of MH17
- positions of 4 detected/reported BUK systems in the MH17 area (Russian intelligence and the reported BUK position rebel near Snizhnoye)
- the "last" inflight position (rewinding the downfall movements from the main crash position) of MH17 at FL33

The document concludes it is not possible that the BUK at the Snizhnoye position shot and destroyed MH17, because it was out of range from that position.

To verify this however we need the confirmed positions of:

1) Main crash site: this is the only one we know for sure.
2) Plane being hit by missile midair: unknown but extractable reliably from the FDR
3) All actively operating BUK systems on July 17 in the relevant area: so far only Russian intelligence provided this information, which neither NATO nor US have either confirmed or otherwise proven differently.

The document concludes: rebel BUK out of range to engage/hit MH17
You, tailskid, after thankfully evaluating the documents conclusions: rebel BUK within range to engage/hit MH17

So only one of this statements can be true, but both can be false otherwise, as long as we do not know the exact positions of 2) and 3).

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 82):

Quoting tailskid (Reply 75):
The exact location of the burst is probably unknown,
Quoting tailskid (Reply 77):
Which channel of data would you use from the FDR to determine the exact location of the plane at any given point in time?

FMC POS, IRS 1 POS, IRS 2 POS, IRS 3 POS, GPS A POS, GPS B POS.
At least 2 of the above are fed into the FDR.
Match that with GPS Clock which can also be fed into the FDR from the GPS receivers, but usually that is sync'ed with the aircraft master clock and that gets fed into the FDR.

Thank You mandala499.
 
bluesky9
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:15 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 92):
Tailskid. I respectfully ask you to watch your language.
According to your profile, you are not a kid at all. And you joined us just this summer.

Blaming me or anybody else of trolling is unacceptable. There is no honor in doing so, a Klingon from my beloved Star Trek would say.

I agree.

Have to say I think the moderation is a bit one sided here. Apparently some members can make personal insults with impunity?? However merely pointing out that some people are stating opinions as though they were settled facts is beyond the pale, even if I can back that up with examples and quotes.

If you look at my earlier posts you will see that I have been right about a few things so far. (I don't claim to be the only person to have said these things, I suppose other people have probably expressed the same ideas elsewhere.)

1. The observation that if the separatists shot MH17 down, it was unintentional, came from me. If you notice the entire thrust of the US media barrage has now changed, from Russia and Putin did it, to exactly that.

2. The observation that Ukraine was responsible for placing a lot of people and A/C in danger of being shot down, was also from me. That issue is the subject of discussion by the Sec Gen of IATA and many others now.

I make an observation that it is strange that a Buk launch would make a lot of noise and would most likely have been noticed over a large area. Any objective person would agree, but no, we get the usual suspects claiming no one would have seen or heard a Buk launch and that Buks make only small sonic booms. Ahrg...

I am trying to analyze the data we have and make observations, that could lead anywhere. I really don't mind where.
What I don't like is when people quote BS mainstream media claims and propaganda as though it was fact.

Better we don't all waddle into WWIII because people are ignorant of the facts and don't want to hear anything that is not consistent with their current main stream media constructed world view.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:02 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 102):
I make an observation that it is strange that a Buk launch would make a lot of noise and would most likely have been noticed over a large area. Any objective person would agree, but no, we get the usual suspects claiming no one would have seen or heard a Buk launch and that Buks make only small sonic booms. Ahrg...

Regardless of what some person think you're just a troll, and as much as I hate your arguments, you have your right to voice your opinion and we have our right to rebuke that. Unfortunately, some people seem to not understand that.

I understand why you would ask the question of "why had no one seen it" and "where's the sonic boom", but, if you've ever witnessed a SAM launch or a rocket/missile launch (where the rocket is of similar size and weight to the BUK), you'd understand why no one wouldn't see or hear it at 50km. Now, if someone was within 1km of the launch and not see it, yes, should be heard and seen. Maybe it should be observable easily up to 5km away, beyond that, it gets progressively harder.

That said, if someone had seen it and come forward, it would help a lot... that is undeniable.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 86):
"According to the experts, if this hypothesis is true, it would explain the bullet holes in some sections of MH17’s fuselage."

But it fails to explain a) why the bullet holes are so conveniently concentrated at b) the cockpit section. Why would these bullet holes be up front at the cockpit section if you could gun the center mass of the airplane, where the fuel is located?

Other parts of the plane have shown very few holes. So the Ukrainian pilots are abysmal at intercepting an civilian airliner which can be easily outmaneuvered by any fighter jet, and then they don't even manage to riddle the huuuuge wing or fuselage with bullets?

These "news" from Moscow are nothing else than FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt. It seems to work well.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
alfa164
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 97):
1. The observation that if the separatists shot MH17 down, it was unintentional, came from me. If you notice the entire thrust of the US media barrage has now changed, from Russia and Putin did it, to exactly that.

That is not the thrust of the US media. The US media - and the rest of the civilized world - blame Russia and Putin for putting his armed thugs and cronies in the Ukraine, to stir-up revolt and to destabilize the government; and they blame Russia and Putin for arming those same thugs and cronies with weapons that are powerful enough to take down a civilian airliner.

To say "Russia and Putin did it" is stretching the truth. To say they made it possible is 100% correct.
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